Dallas: He says she denied trying to run down bicyclist
10:16 PM CDT on Wednesday, June 8, 2005
By DAKARAI I. AARONS / The Dallas Morning News
A police officer testified Wednesday that Southern Methodist University law professor Jane Dolkart told him she only intended to tap a bicyclist with her car the day she allegedly ran him down.
[Click image for a larger version] IRWIN THOMPSON/DMN
IRWIN THOMPSON/DMN
SMU law professor Jane Dolkart (center) talked with friends before her trial on Wednesday in Dallas.
Officer Craig Bennight's testimony came on the first day of Ms. Dolkart's trial. She is charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.
Ms. Dolkart is accused of using her car to hit lawyer Tommy Thomas last May while he was biking with a friend at White Rock Lake on West Lawther Drive south of Mockingbird Lane. Mr. Thomas suffered minor injuries as he was dragged under the car.
Officer Bennight testified that Ms. Dolkart said Mr. Thomas had intentionally blocked her efforts to get around him.
He also testified that when he told Ms. Dolkart that Mr. Thomas was claiming she had intentionally hit him, "that kind of unleashed a torrent of anger" from her.
Officer Bennight said Ms. Dolkart told him that claim was absurd and that, "I only meant to tap him."
She was arrested shortly thereafter.
During cross-examination, defense attorney Mike Gibson questioned the thoroughness of the police investigation, noting that officers never went back to the scene with Ms. Dolkart.
They also did not hold her car as evidence, even though Officer Bennight said it was used as a deadly weapon.During opening arguments, Mr. Gibson said evidence would show that Ms. Dolkart accidentally hit Mr. Thomas and that the proper place for this matter is a civil court.
"Just because a car and bicycle collided on a road, it doesn't make it a crime," Mr. Gibson said.
Officer Bennight later testified that he and his partner spent time discussing the incident with both parties to determine whether the collision had been an accident or intentional.
"We both concurred there was no evidence it was an accident," he said. "Ms. Dolkart never said it was an accident."
Mr. Thomas is expected to testify Thursday.
If convicted, Ms. Dolkart could face two to 20 years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000.
Many years ago in chicago there was a guy intentionally run down, it was in the book "immortal class", and it actually happened.Ive had cabbies intentionally try to side swipe me before, it happens.Ive had bus drivers throw coffee at me before too, the streets arent a nice place,being on a bike makes you a target sometimes.Ive had thugs at bus stops jump out in the street in front of me downtown too, one got hit that way last summer.People are stupid.
randya
06-09-05, 11:18 PM
Bicycle Universe has some great history on this crime. Here's a link to info on a case where a motorist intentionally tried to run Lance Armstrong down in 98:
http://bicycleaustin.info/justice/details.html#armstrong
Plus more similar stories:
http://bicycleaustin.info/justice/
KevinCCAD
06-10-05, 12:16 AM
Thug got hit? by you or a car behind you? One girl I know had a creepy experience, she was stopped at a light waiting to go and a car wanted to be closer to the line or something to wait. I think the girl in the car honked but the girl on the bike just stayed in the road, at this point the cager wants her to get to the side of the road as they wait at the light so the girl in the car backs up, makes eye contact, then hits the gas and rearends the girl on the bike who's still waiting for the light. Girl on the bike was able to stay upright and get a plate number and vehicle description to give to the police but I don't think the cops ever did anything.
biketownblogger
06-10-05, 12:36 AM
Can't find a link to the story...I'll continue to look, but a couple of kids on bikes were "run down" intentionally a few years ago in Kenosha, Wi. because the guy was racist and the kids were black. Can't remember if or not.
lilHinault
06-10-05, 12:41 AM
I'd had, pardon the term, ricer kids kinda "buzz" me, but they're too scared of getting their cars scratched so .... whatever...they don't scare me.
As for that driver who "only intended to tap", well, that's kinda like waving a gun "at" a neighbor or shooting it "near" someone, legally, it doesn't wash. I hope she gets the chair.
I know the racism factor was huge in this case, but 2 kids on bikes were the perfect victims for this loser.
Helmet Head
06-10-05, 11:30 AM
Oh, it happens. So what?
I'm not going to adjust my riding in order to avoid it, for the same reason I don't buy Lottery tickets, and the same reason I get on airplanes despite the possibility they might crash and kill me.
Not to mention that the only way to avoid it is by not riding.
The only reason I can think of to bring these incredibly rare occurances to the attention of other cyclists is to feed paranoia.
noisebeam
06-10-05, 11:37 AM
Not to mention that the only way to avoid it is by not riding.
.
It seems many of these examples (sideswipe, racially motivated, coffee thrown) would happen whether a cyclist was riding to the right side or the center of a lane.
Other examples happened while stopped in a line of traffic, I cant see how position would stop an impatient driver from trying to bump cyclist.
But the main take away is that there are some unbalanced people out there and whether you are cycling, driving, walking, sitting in a diner they may become agressive toward you, but overall these are very uncommon events.
Al
Helmet Head
06-10-05, 11:40 AM
Threads like this in a bicycling forum, focusing on the tiny and relatively insignificant fraction of collision types that involve intent on the part of the motorist, and over which cyclists have no control, is about as pointless as doing a cover story on the ten worst airline crashes in history, in a travel magazine.
Instead, we should be focusing on the 99+% of collision types over which cyclists do have control, and can learn to avoid by acting as defensive vehicle drivers.
Serge
bac
06-10-05, 11:56 AM
If convicted, Ms. Dolkart could face two to 20 years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000.
Let's just hope that the judicial system "taps" her back with a HUGE fine, and perhaps some time behind bars. As we all know, a "tap" from a 2 ton auto can kill a cyclist, or a pedestrian. If there is justice in this world, she should pay BIGTIME.
noisebeam
06-10-05, 11:59 AM
Threads like this in a bicycling forum, focusing on the tiny and relatively insignificant fraction of collision types that involve intent on the part of the motorist, and over which cyclists have no control, is about as pointless as doing a cover story on the ten worst airline crashes in history, in a travel magazine.
Instead, we should be focusing on the 99+% of collision types over which cyclists do have control, and can learn to avoid by acting as defensive vehicle drivers.
Serge
However cycling advocacy and promoting cycling as a normal and expected mode of transport on roads may help reduce driver agression toward cyclists who are sharing the roads.
Cyclist do encounted rude and outwardly agressive motorist quite frequently. It is fortunate that most of these encounters do nothing more than leave the cyclist rattled, but unfortunate that they exist and that some (even if a very small percentage) lead to injury or death.
For example I was riding home in the right third of a very narrow outside lane of a 7 lane road. A large truck came up behind me, accelerated within about 12" of my rear tire (while I was traveling at 25mph) honked, backed off, then repeated the move about five more times. Clearly an attempt to intimidate me, I ignored them of course, but I can see it all to possible that this stupid behavior by the truck driver could have lead to a 'mistake' and instead of getting within inches of me they actually bumped me.
Al
Treespeed
06-10-05, 12:13 PM
Threads like this in a bicycling forum, focusing on the tiny and relatively insignificant fraction of collision types that involve intent on the part of the motorist, and over which cyclists have no control, is about as pointless as doing a cover story on the ten worst airline crashes in history, in a travel magazine.
Instead, we should be focusing on the 99+% of collision types over which cyclists do have control, and can learn to avoid by acting as defensive vehicle drivers.
Serge
I don't agree that it is pointless to cover and discuss these sorts of accidents in a bicycling safety and advocacy forum. In fact I think this is the most appropriate place, where else should cyclists discuss death and injury of our fellow travellers? I imagine what what you are referring to is that we shouldn't use such accidents as an argument against claiming our rightful place on the roads.
But I do think such accidents are a good argument for lobbying our representatives, courts, and law enforcement for aggressive prosecution of these sorts of aggressive, negligent, or outright homicidal act of driving against cyclist. Yes, these sorts of accidents are very rare, which is all the more reason they should be highlighted and the drivers made an example of in the courts. There are of course bad cyclists, we've all seen them and their suicidal antics, but their behavior in no way negates law abiding cyclists rights to the road as some motorists might argue. Serge is right that the main component of our advocacy need to be simply setting a good example, but the other side of that coin is the prosecution of folks who feel they have the right to deal out their own justice on the roadways. If motorists come to understand that there will be real consequences to "tapping" a law abiding cyclist, and that the "I didn't even see him excuse" will no longer fly, maybe word will get out that hitting cyclists is an expensive proposition.
Again, I agree that these occurrences are rare which is all the more reason that they need to be treated as the heinous acts that they are and not simple accidents.
-Marcus.
genec
06-10-05, 12:19 PM
Threads like this in a bicycling forum, focusing on the tiny and relatively insignificant fraction of collision types that involve intent on the part of the motorist, and over which cyclists have no control, is about as pointless as doing a cover story on the ten worst airline crashes in history, in a travel magazine.
Instead, we should be focusing on the 99+% of collision types over which cyclists do have control, and can learn to avoid by acting as defensive vehicle drivers.
Serge
The problem is you present this as tiny and insignificant... yet many accidents are attributed to such excuses as "I didn't see the cyclist" or due to biased accident reporting by the police are chalked up as "cyclist error," or are hit and run. You yourself have stated "I have never heard of such an accident." I simply want you to realize that this stuff does happen, and in fact may happen more often than you believe... and here was a report of admission.
Other situations may only be cases of intimidation... no one is harmed, but clearly, cyclists were threatened.
Clearly some motorists have no respect for our "rights to the road."
scarry
06-10-05, 12:20 PM
I don't agree that it is pointless to cover and discuss these sorts of accidents in a bicycling safety and advocacy forum. In fact I think this is the most appropriate place, where else should cyclists discuss death and injury of our fellow travellers? I imagine what what you are referring to is that we shouldn't use such accidents as an argument against claiming our rightful place on the roads.
But I do think such accidents are a good argument for lobbying our representatives, courts, and law enforcement for aggressive prosecution of these sorts of aggressive, negligent, or outright homicidal act of driving against cyclist. Yes, these sorts of accidents are very rare, which is all the more reason they should be highlighted and the drivers made an example of in the courts. There are of course bad cyclists, we've all seen them and their suicidal antics, but their behavior in no way negates law abiding cyclists rights to the road as some motorists might argue. Serge is right that the main component of our advocacy need to be simply setting a good example, but the other side of that coin is the prosecution of folks who feel they have the right to deal out their own justice on the roadways. If motorists come to understand that there will be real consequences to "tapping" a law abiding cyclist, and that the "I didn't even see him excuse" will no longer fly, maybe word will get out that hitting cyclists is an expensive proposition.
Again, I agree that these occurrences are rare which is all the more reason that they need to be treated as the heinous acts that they are and not simple accidents.
-Marcus.
Totally agree.
anders
06-10-05, 02:29 PM
Threads like this in a bicycling forum, focusing on the tiny and relatively insignificant fraction of collision types that involve intent on the part of the motorist, and over which cyclists have no control, is about as pointless as doing a cover story on the ten worst airline crashes in history, in a travel magazine.
Instead, we should be focusing on the 99+% of collision types over which cyclists do have control, and can learn to avoid by acting as defensive vehicle drivers.
Serge
I feel differently. I have had drivers try to knock me off the road. I have had drivers throw things at me while yelling at me to get on the sidewalk. So I was very happy to read this thread. I don't think it is pointless at all.
anders
06-10-05, 02:37 PM
If convicted, Ms. Dolkart could face two to 20 years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000. "
I hope she gets the maximum.
alanbikehouston
06-10-05, 02:45 PM
Threads like this in a bicycling forum, focusing on the tiny and relatively insignificant fraction of collision types that involve intent on the part of the motorist, and over which cyclists have no control, is about as pointless...
Serge
As pointless of ignoring the truth: a very large percentage of so-called "accidents" involving cyclists involve motorists who SAW the cyclist, and directed their vehicle AT the cyclist. The driver always PRETENDS the result was an accident...I'd bet that in the MAJORITY of fatal vehicle/bike "accidents", the driver saw the bike long before he killed the cyclist... of course, that is NOT what the driver is gonna tell the police.
In Houston, most "killer" drivers don't talk with the police..they kill the cyclist, and keep going down the road...as it were a rat. Just leave the cyclist in the street bleeding to death. If the police ever track them down, their story is "I thought it was a dead dog in the road, and it was dark, and a bad neighborhood, so I kept going". The police pretend to believe it was "an accident" (just like our friend Serge) and nobody goes to jail.
Here in Houston, back when I was dumb enough to ride on roads with prevailing speeds of 40 mph and up, attempts to run me down occurred at least two or three times a month. Always a white male between age twenty and fifty. Almost always driving a pickup truck, Suburban, or similar "I'm a BIG macho man" vehicles.
Any illusions that I had that these were "accidents" ended when I noticed the some of these drivers were circling back and making a second attempt to strike me, or push me off the road. Now, I try to restrict my "on road" cycling to narrow residential streets where there are few vehicles and the "flow of traffic" is at 20 mph or 25 mph or less. A different set of problems, but deliberate attempts to drive directly at ME are much rarer.
randya
06-10-05, 02:58 PM
This has probably been posted before, but I thought it might be appropriate to repost, as a guide to dealing with all those nasty he-man pickup truck drivers, given the topic under consideration.
Trying to get a four-wheeler's respect, on a bike
By Joe Berkeley, 6/8/2003
As a commuter cyclist who frequently makes the bone-chilling ride from Hull to the Back Bay, I do what I can to protect myself.
I purchased a headlight system with optional flashing taillight. A neon-green jacket also increases my visibility.
However, I had a problem beyond visibility: How to be liked by motorists.
While most of my fellow travelers behave in a professional and predictable manner, a minority do not. Some become enraged that I occupy up to 18 inches on the far right side of the lane. Drivers of trucks, commercial vans, SUVs -- even compact cars toting four to five hormonally driven youths -- have all at one time or another hollered at me, uttered oaths that couldn't be repeated in a family newspaper, and questioned my sexual preferences with the enthusiasm of a lynch mob.
I theorized that if I proved to this group of angry motorists that I am not some freak clad in spandex, but a regular guy, just like them -- someone who shares their pain, understands their challenges -- I would extend my life expectancy. But how? Finding an American flag on a roadside one day, I fastened it to my rear rack and started pedaling madly. The theory of this experiment was ''You, Mr. Chevy SUV driver, are an American, and I am an American. We have a lot in common. From the mountains, to the prairies, to the oceans . . .''
The angry drivers were just as angry, just as nasty, just as likely to question my patriotism. Down came the flag.
Having spent an enormous amount of time riding past vehicles that later pass me on the commute, I have observed the following stickers on the back windows of those most likely to yell at me:
''I am the NRA''
''Go Sox''
''Semper Fi''
Using my desktop publishing skills, I mocked up similar signs to fit on the back of my bicycle. Before posting them, I showed them to a noncyclist co-worker named Kevin.
We decided that the ''I am the NRA'' sign could lead to a shooting incident. Mounting a shotgun rack on the back of my bicycle would add an air of authenticity, but the added bulk would be problematic.
The Red Sox approach was also complex. When the Sox win, sure, I could be given a bit more respect on the road. But what about when the Sox lose a close one? One bad bounce and I could be driven off the road. Until the Red Sox win a World Series, this idea was on the back burner.
''Semper Fi'' appeared to be a strategically sound approach. Everyone loves a Marine, so that's good. Marines know how to kill people who mess with them, so I could inspire fear. However, what if a real Marine saluted me in traffic? I would be a fraud. Back to the drawing board.
I knew I had a winner on my hands the second I penned it:
''Ex wife got car''
''Yeah,'' my co-worker Kevin said, nodding his approval. ''Pickup truck guys are always mad at their wives.'' One Friday evening, I tested my inspiration, affixing it to the back of my bicycle. Guess what I got: an abundance of knowing smiles from my core audience -- angry men driving pickup trucks, hormonally enraged young men traveling in packs while crammed into small cars, homophobic van drivers, as well as petite women in gargantuan SUVs.
I got plenty of thumbs up, too. And nods of approval.
One morning, a plumber and his sidekick rolled by in a rusty pickup. The sidekick rolled down a window, nodded sagely, and said, ''Yeah, and I bet you're still paying the insurance.''
Other men have said, in family newspaper-speak, ''I have been similarly imposed upon.'' And a few women have actually pulled over -- not to hit me, but to hit on me.
Most importantly, all of the drivers who can actually see where they are going are giving me another inch of room on the road. You can't ask for more than an inch.
Drivers who can't see where they're going, like those helming the Grand Marquis Presidential editions or Cadillac Broughams, just keep steaming along as if I didn't exist.
You do what you can in this world.
Joe Berkeley, a creative director at Hill, Holliday, always wears a helmet while riding. He says his wife is not amused by the sign.
This story ran on page 1 of the Boston Globe's City Weekly section on 6/8/2003.
genec
06-10-05, 03:24 PM
Beautiful! Goes right to the heart of the issue. Probably wouldn't have done a thing for avoiding SMU professors though.
Roody
06-10-05, 04:16 PM
The guy who wrote the article posted by randya is every bit as prejudiced as the motorists he claimed harrassed him.
genec
06-10-05, 04:26 PM
The guy who wrote the article posted by randya is every bit as prejudiced as the motorists he claimed harrassed him.
Probably... we all become a bit jaded about our lives... but bottom line is he is NOT in much of a position to threaten as those that push the pedals in oil powered beasts.
randya
06-10-05, 04:28 PM
The guy who wrote the article posted by randya is every bit as prejudiced as the motorists he claimed harrassed him.
Explain please? I know there were comments on the MassBike list about misogyny, but I'm not goin' to get all worried about being PC over that; and I certainly wouldn't object to the lady cyclists posting signs that say " Ex-husband got car", either....
On the other hand, if you're concerned about the author's characterization of the motorists, my take is that it's mostly TIC humor, and anyway I say screw 'em if they're going to threaten the life of a cyclist to save two seconds on their commute; they deserve all the invective they recieve from cyclists, you know you always catch these jerks at the next light, anyway, and a lot of them probably fit the stereotypes advanced by the author...
Or maybe you're NRA or Semper Fi and you're taking it WAY too personally...I say: lighten up and get a sense of humor (Red Sox fans don't count anymore, since this was written before the 2004 World Series)... :)
Roody
06-10-05, 04:41 PM
No I'm a homosexual left-leaning anti-gun cyclist. But it would be stupid and prejudiced to assume that agressive motorists necessarily belong to a certain socioeconomic or racial class. A**ho*es abound in every walk of life.
noisebeam
06-10-05, 04:47 PM
No I'm a homosexual left-leaning anti-gun cyclist. But it would be stupid and prejudiced to assume that agressive motorists necessarily belong to a certain socioeconomic or racial class. A**ho*es abound in every walk of life.
Where are the references to race or economics in the piece?
I forwarded it to my jacked up 4wd friend - his response:
"I drive around them kind so I don’t get any of that gay fabric in my grill."
Al
pedex
06-10-05, 04:59 PM
Thug got hit? by you or a car behind you?
Got hit by me, he jumped out from the bus stop on high street across from city center I guess thinking he was gonna intimidate me or something, I was moving along at almost 30mph in the middle of the right lane,I think he misjudged how fast I was going, I swerved a little but it wasnt enough, put my right elbow up and cracked him in the face at impact, my bullhorns caught him in his rib cage.Took us both down, he ended up with a broken nose,a couple broken ribs and a ruptured spleen, I was more or less ok.I went back to work about 15minutes later.
One of the rainbow guys 2 summers ago had a jaywalker in the same area step into the street in front of him, he wasnt so lucky, top tube of his bike buckled and snapped at impact and he endo'd pretty hard,dunno what happened to the ped in that incident, his $2000 bike was toast though, 3 weeks later he quit.
Jaywalkers do this crap all the time, instead of looking left first, they look right and step into traffic, then look left and realize they are about to get nailed, or dont even see you at all.
Ive had cabbies look out their window and see me coming and go ahead and pull out in front of me anyway too, last one did it on state street in front of 65 east state, fortunately I had just enough room to avoid him, but he ran his mouth anyway telling me to get off the road.I dismounted and pulled out my U-lock at the stop light and walked up to his car, he rolled up his window and didnt have anything to say then, funny how that works..........I usually let things like this slide, but sometimes I take issue with people trying to hurt me.
alanbikehouston
06-10-05, 05:06 PM
No I'm a homosexual left-leaning anti-gun cyclist. But it would be stupid and prejudiced to assume that agressive motorists necessarily belong to a certain socioeconomic or racial class. A**ho*es abound in every walk of life.
Yup. Lots of jerks in the world. Only about 10% of the drivers in my neighborhood are white males between around age 20 and 50. Yet, 100% of the drivers who have intentionally tried to strike me with their vehicles have been from that group.
In my neighborhood, lots of folks drive little Honda's and Toyota's, and "mommie" type SUV's... Dodge Caravans and Toyota Sienna's. Never a problem with those folks. The folks who try to run me down drive pickup trucks, Suburbans, Hummers, Navagators. Not a stereotype. A fact.
And, these guys do favor certain bumper stickers. Many have the KKK flag decal on their truck. Others have a sticker that LOOKS like "KKK" (from a country-western station named something like KiKK - very small "i" on their bumper sticker). Last year, lots of those pick-up trucks had a "W 04" sticker, or a "Bush" sticker next to the KKK flag decal. Not a stereotype. Just a fact.
Part of staying alive is understanding how the world works. When I'm riding my bike, and I see a pick-up truck coming at me with the KKK flag decal, I know it's time to look out...not a stereotype...just a fact.
randya
06-10-05, 05:11 PM
I find that Volvo drivers aren't particularly safe to be around either; I'm thinking they bought Volvos knowing they are safer than an average car in a collision, and they either use this as an excuse to be reckless or to make up for their inadequacies as motorists.
sbhikes
06-10-05, 05:58 PM
Similar thing happened to someone on bentrideronline just the other day: http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=10275
You know what sucks about saying these kinds of posts don't belong here because they are so rare is that how do you know they are so rare? First of all, the news doesn't publish these stories every time it happens. Many times when it happens the rider doesn't get the plate number and the driver gets away with it. Then there's the "Officer, I didn't see him" excuse that tends to get believed so readily. And the police bias against two-wheelers in general. If we deny these instances exist, how does that help anyone?
There's a serious problem in our culture that otherwise ordinary people can treat others with so much callous contempt that they actually carry out the action of attempted (or successful) murder. And it's not just cyclists that get harmed. Drivers are killing each other, too.
Serge, I don't know if you noticed, but this wasn't a thread about bike lanes. I can't believe you actually wanted to make this about the guy's lane position.
P.S. My ex-husband got the sewing machine.
CB HI
06-10-05, 06:19 PM
Yup. Lots of jerks in the world. Only about 10% of the drivers in my neighborhood are white males between around age 20 and 50. Yet, 100% of the drivers who have intentionally tried to strike me with their vehicles have been from that group.
Part of staying alive is understanding how the world works. When I'm riding my bike, and I see a pick-up truck coming at me with the KKK flag decal, I know it's time to look out...not a stereotype...just a fact.
About 15% of the drivers in my neighborhood are white males between around age 20 and 50. They rarely try this type of assault. Half of the bad ones have been women. Except for one black women and one white women, the other jerks have been Asian or Pacific Islanders and have bumper stickers like:
Kerry - Edwards
Out of Iraq
Fermez le Bush (a French type anti Bush sticker)
Native Hawaiian
Go Home Haole
Save Sunset Beach
not a stereotype...just a fact.
Oddly, in Washington DC from 1989-1991, I do not remember any of those jerks even having bumper stickers. The jerks there were all races. not a stereotype...just a fact.
I did not have any similar problems in:
California from 1982-1984
Connecticut in 1984 and 1986
not a stereotype...just a fact.
BostonFixed
06-10-05, 06:44 PM
All of these are isolated incidents though- just like the gun toting psycho who goes on a rampage. Motorists who 'run down cyclists' are few/far behind.
Roody
06-10-05, 06:56 PM
I have always wondered if there is any reason why some members here are getting run down "all the time," while many others never have this experience. I have never had anyone deliberately run me down, and very rarely have cars, pickups or SUVs been driven so close to me that I felt at all threatened.
I do worry about people in motor vehicles trying to rob me or beat me up, although nothing like this has ever happened. I would classify this as street crime, and I feel a lot safer on a bike than walking, but not as safe as I would in a motor vehicle.
coriander
06-10-05, 06:59 PM
All of these are isolated incidents though- just like the gun toting psycho who goes on a rampage. Motorists who 'run down cyclists' are few/far behind.
Motorists who come close to intentionally running down cyclists because they are just trying to scare them or "teach them a lesson" are much more common than you think and certainly much more common than gun toting psychos.
Roody
06-10-05, 08:01 PM
I wish there were reliable figures, because I read here that crazy motorists are commonplace, but I just don't experience it myself. What exactly are we talking about? Someone yelling something out their window is a far cry from maniac chasing you down with his car with the intent of murdering you. It seems like a lot more cyclists would be killed if there were a serious number of maniacs trying to run them over.
I have a couple questions for those who think they were deliberately aimed at by motorists: How did you get away from them when they tried to run you down? What do you think would have happened if you just kept riding in your normal fashion? Would they have kept trying to run you over or would they have backed off at the last minute? If they didn't run you down, how do you know that they were actually trying to run you down? If they were trying real hard, shouldn't they occasionally be successful?
randya
06-10-05, 08:16 PM
Too many questions. Aggressive drivers are everywhere, the more assertively you bicycle, the more encounters you are likely to have with them. Just because they don't make contact every time doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist. Read the thread again, some of them DO make contact.
Crank It Up
06-10-05, 09:33 PM
Trying to get a four-wheeler's respect, on a bike
By Joe Berkeley, 6/8/2003
HUMOR .......it never fails!!! :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
CB HI
06-11-05, 01:52 AM
I wish there were reliable figures, because I read here that crazy motorists are commonplace, but I just don't experience it myself. What exactly are we talking about? Someone yelling something out their window is a far cry from maniac chasing you down with his car with the intent of murdering you. It seems like a lot more cyclists would be killed if there were a serious number of maniacs trying to run them over.
I have a couple questions for those who think they were deliberately aimed at by motorists: How did you get away from them when they tried to run you down? What do you think would have happened if you just kept riding in your normal fashion? Would they have kept trying to run you over or would they have backed off at the last minute? If they didn't run you down, how do you know that they were actually trying to run you down? If they were trying real hard, shouldn't they occasionally be successful?
I also wish there were reliable figures, it would give bicyclist the ammunition to fix the problem.
As my previous post demonstrates, some of this BS is a regional occurrence. Possibly in areas which police will not take reports of such misdeeds seriously.
For me, I am talking about a driver that swerves either in front of or next to a bicyclist such that if the bicyclist did not take evasive action, the bicyclist would make physical contact with the motor vehicle. Some idiots do it for fun and some do it out of road rage.
How did you get away from them when they tried to run you down? Learned how to do a quick turn and emergency braking riding a motorcycle and learned how to bunny hop sideways and up (like jumping onto the sidewalk) mountain biking.
What do you think would have happened if you just kept riding in your normal fashion? Would have made contact with the motor vehicle in the first 4 following cases.
Would they have kept trying to run you over or would they have backed off at the last minute? Since the only reason some did not hit me was my quick turn or bunny hop; at least 4 would have hit me and then claimed it was my fault.
If they didn't run you down, how do you know that they were actually trying to run you down? The run up to the final act, by laying on their horn, gunning the engine, yelling to get on the sidewalk and then the final swerve.
and If they were trying real hard, shouldn't they occasionally be successful? Look at the OP if you want an example of the driver intending on hitting the bicyclist and actually accomplishing it.
I started bicycle commuting in 1982.
No problems 1982-1988 in California, Connecticut and Hawaii.
Remaining years are approximate!
1988 Hawaii - on 80 mile weekend recreational ride at mile 15, 4 locals in pick-up truck pass close enough to me for the passenger to reach out and throw a wad of paper directly in my face; 400 yards down the road, I see the truck swerve across the shoulder to the point the right tires are in the dirt forcing another bicyclist into an irrigation ditch (not an accident, the swerve happened next to the only other bicyclist on that stretch of road). Watched for a police car to report the incident, no luck. On the way back, I see 4 guys that look like the jerks fishing at a beach park. I pull into the parking lot and sure enough there is the pick-up. I note that either Karma or a victim of the jerks has flattened 2 of the trucks tires.
1990 Washington DC - Friday commute home, 3 drunk Hispanics in a VW bus swerve in front of me. I avoid hitting the bus by emergency braking hard. The 3 guys are laughing like crazy. I give them my best swear words. I ride hard to catch them. At the next stop sign, the passenger opens his door and starts to get out to show me how big his balls are. So I aim my front wheel right at his balls. His eyes get big, he throws a half full can of beer at me, slams the door shut and the 3 of them run off with shocked looks on their faces. Reported to police, no call backs from police.
1995 Hawaii - morning commute, I am stopped for a red light at a T intersection, I am in the right lane of 6 lane road at the top of the T, on the green light, I and the other driver start to move. All of us have to stop as a “professional” trucker (Hawaiian) driving a six wheeled pick-up refueling truck blows through his just turned red light, crossing all 6 lanes into the lane I am in. He sees me and pulls as close to the curb as he can get as we approach a red light. Normally I would wait my turn in line, but there was so much room to properly share the lane to the left of the trucker, I pull along side him and ask him “what was that was all about?” He gives me a dumb look, so I just move ahead of him. After the light turns green, he then passes me and swerves forcing me to bunny hop onto the sidewalk. I catch him at the next light, tell him to knock it off. Same thing happens as he passes a second time. DA prosecutes, his public defender keeps asking for continuances hoping that eventually I will not show up as the only witness. On the fifth court date, the regular misdemeanor traffic judge and prosecutor are in training and the drug dealer judge (known as a hanging judge) and prosecutor are filling in. Public defender knows this judge will not give another continuance and may put this jerk in jail for a year if he lies to the judge. Jerk pleads no contest, gets year probation, $100 fine, anger management on a deferred sentence. Judge did scare jerk into thinking he might get jail time though.
1997 Hawaii - on commute home, white women in business suit driving red convertible pulls up behind me on 6 lane road with 9 feet wide lanes, no shoulder. I am controlling full right lane. She has several opportunities to pass correctly, but chooses to repeatedly blast her horn, gun her engine, tailgate me and yell get off the road. She finally passes and swerves when along side forcing a bunny hop onto the sidewalk. My guess was that her boss took it out on her at work, so she was looking for someone else to take her work day frustrations out on.
1999 Hawaii - cop in unmarked SUV (race unknown but passenger was mixed race) is behind me going downhill in gulch with narrow lane, unsafe shoulder and 35 mph limit. I am doing 43 mph controlling the lane. I do not know it is a cop. Cop honks horn, I ignore; cop sounds emergency intersection air horn, I think it is a CB radio PA loud horn system & ignore; cop sounds siren, again I think it is a PA system & ignore. Start heading up hill. At 35 mph the shoulder is safe to use and I pull onto shoulder to allow safe passing. Cop slows to match my speed and squeezes me next to the guard rail (6 inches on either side) and is yelling at me. I could not understand what cop is saying because of wind 25 mph speed. I call 911 to report harassment and the dispatcher gives me ****. I demand dispatcher do her job and sent an officer to take my report. I call city complaint office to report dispatcher. Some weeks later, internal affairs calls me to investigate the unauthorized use of a police siren by an officer. IA had no concern about the harassment of a bicyclist by an officer.
2000 Hawaii - on utility trip, a black women (military spouse who just arrived on the islands and bought a brand new extra large SUV - still had dealer temp tag on it); heading to the same store I am going to (on the left side of the road), she sees a separated (by guardrail) side bike path with a bike route green sign on it and a white/black “use sidewalk” sign under that. She blast her horn, passes and swerves. She probably would not have hit me if I had gone straight, but it was hard to tell since I did not take the chance and braked hard. I pulled up to her at the store parking lot and nicely asked her “What was that all about” (a favorite term of mine as you can tell). She starts screaming “get on the sidewalk, get on the sidewalk”. Realizing she saw the signs, I try to explain that Hawaii does not have a mandatory side path law, I was riding legally, and that the signs were intended to let people know the path was a legal bike path. But she keeps screaming “get on the sidewalk, get on the sidewalk”. I then call her a stupid ***** and leave.
2005 Hawaii - my commute route goes through a steep gulch, the public bus route on the same roads has a schedule that is too tight for the drivers to keep on schedule in even the slightest traffic. The bus drivers here use to be the best professional drivers on the road but, the Supervisors have started pushing drivers to keep to the schedule. On 2 occasions the drivers made poor decisions by passing on curves with double yellow lines in the gulch, forcing some very close calls with oncoming traffic. There have been several deadly head on collisions in the gulch. I complained to the bus management and had a verbal debate with the safety manager about the close calls and I warned the safety manager that a driver on that route would kill or hurt someone before too long. The next day, a driver on that route ran over a pedestrian. A few days later, I was using the lane on a section of the road with a wide shoulder but fresh broken beer bottles on the shoulder. A bus on the route pulls into the open lane on the left, starts passing and while looking into the side mirror the hole time, moves right to force me onto the shoulder. I would have considered it just bad driving, but the driver was fixed on that mirror the entire time (probably a driver that got asked about one of the previous complaints). The beer glass caused a flat. I e-mailed the bus customer service listing damages and lost time, as well as demanding that the bus lawyers pass my name and contact information onto the lawyer for the pedestrian that got run over the day after I warned the safety manager. That at least got a memo routed to the bus drivers on how to properly pass bicyclist and to not pass in the gulch double yellow line areas.
As you can see, a mix of races, 2 states without problems, 1 state that flipped from no problems to several problems; and a city (Washington DC) that just had several rude people the 2 years I was there.
I am glad the people in your area do not engage in assault on bicyclist.
rs00
06-11-05, 01:46 PM
1999 Hawaii - cop in unmarked SUV (race unknown but passenger was mixed race) is behind me going downhill in gulch with narrow lane, unsafe shoulder and 35 mph limit. I am doing 43 mph controlling the lane. I do not know it is a cop. Cop honks horn, I ignore; cop sounds emergency intersection air horn, I think it is a CB radio PA loud horn system & ignore; cop sounds siren, again I think it is a PA system & ignore. Start heading up hill. At 35 mph the shoulder is safe to use and I pull onto shoulder to allow safe passing. Cop slows to match my speed and squeezes me next to the guard rail (6 inches on either side) and is yelling at me. I could not understand what cop is saying because of wind 25 mph speed. I call 911 to report harassment and the dispatcher gives me ****. I demand dispatcher do her job and sent an officer to take my report. I call city complaint office to report dispatcher. Some weeks later, internal affairs calls me to investigate the unauthorized use of a police siren by an officer. IA had no concern about the harassment of a bicyclist by an officer.
Interesting. This is very similar to trekets post on "Pulled over for giving cop the finger".
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=104611
I wish trekets had the guts to report the officer in his case. Cops are often as dangerous as other motorists.
Karldar
06-11-05, 03:28 PM
Interesting. This is very similar to trekets post on "Pulled over for giving cop the finger".
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=104611
I wish trekets had the guts to report the officer in his case. Cops are often as dangerous as other motorists.
Emphasis mine. I think many officers are more dangerous than other motorists considering all their distractions. I always behave more cautiously around cruisers, not because I'm doing anything illegal, but because you never know when they're gonna flip a U or somethin'.
randya
06-14-05, 12:20 PM
here's another story: Taxi driver intentionally hits 8-year old cyclist in Ottawa:
Cabbie's 'road rage' leaves Ottawa boy with broken nose
Last Updated Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:42:46 EDT
CBC News
A taxi company in Ottawa apologized Monday after an alleged incident of
driver "road rage" left an eight-year-old boy with a broken nose and
stitches.
On Saturday morning, Ben Pickard, 8, was bicycling with his 12-year-old
stepsister, Shana Parent, on a quiet street just out front of the
apartment complex where they live.
Ben Pickard says taxi followed him into parking lot.
After dropping off a client three driveways down, a cab driver came up
behind Ben and honked. Ben and his stepsister then biked into the parking
lot of their apartment building.
Shana said the cab followed Ben into the lot "honking his horn."
The cab "followed me because he was mad or something, and it bumped my
back tire, and sent me flying into the air ... and then I hit the ground.
That's all I can remember," said Ben.
Shana said she watched as Ben went about 2½ metres up in the air and hit a
cement pillar on his way down, before landing on the asphalt. She said she
didn't think it was real at first, but when Ben called her for help, she
ran over to him.
Ben, who is now recovering with a broken nose, headaches, and five
stitches, said he has no idea why the cab driver would have done such a
thing.
His father, Travis Pickard, called the whole thing "unbelievable." His
only explanation is that it was a case of "road rage."
Blue Line president Hanif Patni said he phoned the family to apologize
because Shana said it was a Blue Line cab. He told CBC News that his
company is co-operating with police in their investigation of the incident
and will send over photos of cab drivers for Shana to look at.
Patni added, "It's an alleged incident, but we are taking it very seriously."
Ben Pickard hasn't been back on his bike yet, saying he "might be afraid
for a month or two."
trekets
06-14-05, 12:38 PM
here's another story: Taxi driver intentionally hits 8-year old cyclist in Ottawa:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/14/ottawa-taxi050614.html
This should really be a separate thread.
I hope they find the guy and put him away for a long time.
alanbikehouston
06-16-05, 03:43 PM
All of these are isolated incidents though- just like the gun toting psycho who goes on a rampage. Motorists who 'run down cyclists' are few/far behind.
If you mean "and kill" the cylist...you are correct. The game of "shove your right hand mirror into the cyclist" is a game of chicken. The driver is trying to intimidate the cyclist, and push him over toward (or over) the curb. And, an experienced cyclist becomes skilled at knowing when, where, and how such attempts will be made, and avoiding them...but avoiding actual contact does NOT make having a four ton vehicle miss your left shoulder by six inches "enjoyable".
I enjoyed the post from the guy in Hawaii who wanted to pretend that the majority of the drivers in Hawaii who deliberately aimed their vehicles at cyclists are "Asian women" who are liberal Democrats. Funny, but absolutely a crock.
Assaults on cyclists are a form of "stranger on stranger" crime. And, any police officer who has spent ten seconds looking at the annual FBI crime statistics can tell you this: violent "stranger on stranger" crimes are committed by males nine times out of ten. And, contrary to the delusions of the Rush Limbaugh's of the world, FBI statistics prove that the MAJORITY of the men who commit "stranger on stranger" crimes are white males.
So, when I see "Bubba" bearing down on me in his pickup truck, I'm ready to get of the way. "Playing Chicken" is only fun when the weights of the vehicles "playing" are within two tons of each other.
barenakedbiker
06-16-05, 03:59 PM
Did the Defendant see the victim prior to the collision? Yes
Did the Defendant intentionally cause the collision? Yes
Why did the Defendant intend to "tap" the victim? Because she was angry.
What is the Texas definition of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon?
randya
06-16-05, 04:41 PM
Women's liberation, baby! The motor vehicle as "equalizer"...
CB HI
06-17-05, 12:36 AM
I enjoyed the post from the guy in Hawaii who wanted to pretend that the majority of the drivers in Hawaii who deliberately aimed their vehicles at cyclists are "Asian women" who are liberal Democrats. Funny, but absolutely a crock.
Assaults on cyclists are a form of "stranger on stranger" crime. And, any police officer who has spent ten seconds looking at the annual FBI crime statistics can tell you this: violent "stranger on stranger" crimes are committed by males nine times out of ten. And, contrary to the delusions of the Rush Limbaugh's of the world, FBI statistics prove that the MAJORITY of the men who commit "stranger on stranger" crimes are white males.
So, when I see "Bubba" bearing down on me in his pickup truck, I'm ready to get of the way. "Playing Chicken" is only fun when the weights of the vehicles "playing" are within two tons of each other.
So how long have you lived in Hawaii? Oh, never, now I can see how you are an expert on the subject.
If you actually read both my post, you would be able to understand that my point was that no race, sex or political persuasion has a lock on harassing or even trying to force cyclist off the road. It was easy for others on the list to understand the point, but you missed it some how.
You try and transpose some study that was not even on point to support your belief. Come to Hawaii, if you only look out for the white male conservative drivers here, you will not last too long.
By the way, our news here recently reported that according to a just released study, Honolulu drivers have an accident on average every 9 years, second worst city in our country.
Also of note, Hawaii is the ONLY state in the nation that every county voted blue in the last election. That tells me that there are a lot of democrats here.
randya
06-17-05, 11:25 AM
ABH may not be right about Hawaii, but he probably is correct about Texas. I've lived in Austin and there are a lot of white male Bubbas in pickup trucks that probably wouldn't think twice about taking a cyclist out.
Here in Houston, back when I was dumb enough to ride on roads with prevailing speeds of 40 mph and up, attempts to run me down occurred at least two or three times a month.
I find that hard to believe.
If I ever had such an experience, I would quit cycling altogether. I can't blame the vast majority of Americans who think cycling in traffic is inherently dangerous, thanks to these types of stories, from ever considering taking up cycling.
Way to go. Yeah, that's cycling advocacy. :rolleyes:
nick burns
06-17-05, 01:40 PM
Way to go. Yeah, that's cycling advocacy. :rolleyes:
The other half of this forum's title is safety.
I don't believe these incidents of violence are as rare as you think they are. Almost every cyclist I'm friends with has had at least one act of violence from motorists against them. I've had stuff thrown at me & also blatant attempts to hit me.
Exchanging the stories of these incidents may help us learn how to deal with them or avoid them.
slagjumper
06-17-05, 02:05 PM
It is a fact that many motorists are aggressive. There are hundreds of PENNDOT signs in SW Pennsylvania saying "look out for aggressive drivers". Serge, I think it is foolish to spout all the VC stuff then, put your hands over you ears and say all that vehicular aggresion is too rare to be of concern. Sure there is a lot of anecdotal evidence here, but I aggree with sbhikes the statistics cannot tell the whole story.
I think that resonable folks imagine others to be resonable. But this is the exception. A resonable thought might be something like if I am nice all others around me will be nice, but that is plainly false. Dont even try to say if all bikers where nice, more or all motorists would be nice too. God I cannot believe that people can logically think this.
I am Mennonite but if someone tried run me off the road, I might do something for which I would have to ask for forgiveness later. BTW-- No one has ever tried to run me off the road. But 1 in a million happens 250 times a day in the US.
I-Like-To-Bike
06-17-05, 02:10 PM
I find that hard to believe.
If I ever had such an experience, I would quit cycling altogether. I can't blame the vast majority of Americans who think cycling in traffic is inherently dangerous, thanks to these types of stories, from ever considering taking up cycling.
Way to go. Yeah, that's cycling advocacy. :rolleyes:
Be assured: facts and truth are not determined by what a single ideologue "believes," wants to "believe," or is willing to "believe"; nor is reality affected by an ideologue's unwillingness/inability to understand or accept facts that don't fit his rigid predetermined beliefs.
Cycling advocacy will not be advanced by dreaming up an ideology and then bending or ignoring "unpleasant" facts or reality to fit.
No rolling eyes; written instead with a steely gaze.