Mountain Biking - A more XC oriented frame?

EDIT: Insert 04 Kona Dawg Frameset here.

http://www.konaworld.com/shopping_cart/FrontEnd/Products/product_detail.aspx?productid=251&parentid=188

http://wheelworld.com/merchant/129/images/large/KonaDawg04frm360.jpg

Actually I would consider you current bike an AXC, I would not call it an urban bike. I don't really see much difference between that and the other you posted.

I don't see any reason why your current hardrock can't handle epic trails.

Actually I would consider you current bike an AXC, I would not call it an urban bike. I don't really see much difference between that and the other you posted.

I don't see any reason why your current hardrock can't handle epic trails.

I borrowed a friends Stumpy FSR for about 5 minutes and in 5 seconds I knew that Ive been riding the wrong bike. The geometry of the HardRock isnt suited for epic trail riding. Ask any LBS and they'll probably tell you that it isnt a trail bike. Two LBS have told me that the HardRock is an urban bike and isnt really designed for XC. Dont get me wrong, it works just fine but I hate knowing that I could have a better frame more suited for me.

I would say your LBS has been telling lies. The stand over height of the top tube is far to high for real urban use (think trying to pull a move and getting your foot trapped under the top tube at the worst possible moment). Simple as.

If you look at a completed FX (http://www.jamisbikes.com/bikes/images/04_komodo_fx.jpg) compared to a Hardrock there apears to be very little difference to me.

If you want to spend the doller and change it then go for it, its your bike after all, but I would spend my money else where.

How's this (http://wheelworld.com/site/itemdetails.cfm?ID=3327&Catalog=39&sort=Price)?

At that price, thats a steal. :D

The price is great but would you consider it an XC/epic trail bike?

Troie, What specifically bothers you about your bike? Not nimble? Heavy? Saddle trouble? Riding position?
If you really want a new bike, that's swell, but I'd at least futz around with your current one and try to spot the "problem" first...

What is "epic trail"?

Let's not get carried away with upgrades now...

Werd, Im with brad on this one, how long have you had this current rig?

His bike is an 03 I think. Not super old...

Werd, Im with brad on this one, how long have you had this current rig?

Since 03. Im no newb if thats what your implying. I know what bike I need and its not the HR.

I borrowed a friends Stumpy FSR for about 5 minutes and in 5 seconds I knew that Ive been riding the wrong bike.

Would you have said the same thing if you didn't know what kind of bike it was?

Or maybe its something like handlebars, stem, or seat position?

Troie, What specifically bothers you about your bike? Not nimble? Heavy? Saddle trouble? Riding position?
If you really want a new bike, that's swell, but I'd at least futz around with your current one and try to spot the "problem" first...

Want? No. Need? Yes. Theres a big difference. The overall geometry of the bike isnt right for my style of riding. Ive "futz" around with my bike for 2 years, its time to move on.

What is "epic trail"?

Let's not get carried away with upgrades now...

Epic trail = long XC rides in the vicinty of 3+ hours.

Too late, Ive already gone upgrade crazy.

Or maybe its something like handlebars, stem, or seat position?

No, no and no. Ive adjusted bars, stem and saddle height beyond adjusting. Its the bikes geometry that needs to be changed, not the components.

I know you're starting to sound pretty adamant about needing a new frame, but have you looked at the difference in geometry between the Hardrock and the StumpJumper? .5 deg for the head and seat angle. Other than that, the standover height is about 3 inches shorter. Were they the same size?

As far as that Kona goes, I would definitely try the bike first considering your fit issues. It's geometry seems considerably different than the Stumpy. You might end up in the same situation, less $600.

The price is great but would you consider it an XC/epic trail bike?

I would consider it an All Mountain Bike (ie good up and down hill, as well as XC).

I can quite happliy ride for 3 hours plus on my DJ bike (with seat post extended), so you should be able to do all you want on the Dawg. As the Kona site says its for getting you out to the fun spot and all the way back.

It's geometry seems considerably different than the Stumpy. You might end up in the same situation, less $600.

Compare it to the HR, not the Stumpy.

If it's just a feel issue and you want a new bike, I'd say ride a completed version of the Kona or if all else fails, compare its specs- handlebar style and stem included- to the Stumpy.

I thought you said you weren't into XC. You didn't want clipless pedals and you wanted shin guards. Now you want an XC frame? Doesn't make sense. 3 hour long XC rides I'm not entirely sure require a different type of XC bike. Stop pouring money into your hardrock/dawg/komodo/whatever and just wait for an XC bike that you want. Makes a heck of a lot more sense than doing this. But then again, since you have all the components, it might be too late.

Also, what do you classify "Aggresive XC" as? Do you have skinnys, drops, log rides small jumps etc.?

I thought you said you weren't into XC. You didn't want clipless pedals and you wanted shin guards. Now you want an XC frame? Doesn't make sense. 3 hour long XC rides I'm not entirely sure require a different type of XC bike. Stop pouring money into your hardrock/dawg/komodo/whatever and just wait for an XC bike that you want. Makes a heck of a lot more sense than doing this. But then again, since you have all the components, it might be too late.

Also, what do you classify "Aggresive XC" as? Do you have skinnys, drops, log rides small jumps etc.?

I thought I was, then I wasnt, then I thought I was, then I didnt. The trails one rides determines the type of riding they are limited to right? We dont have north shore type trails here, its mainly XC singletrack. There is a FR/DH park about an hour from me but I'll rarely drive down there as it is too far and the trails are very limited compared to the 150+ miles of intertwined trails about 15 minutes from my house.

Im an XC rider no doubt about it. Maybe Im just being a whiney little b|tch and Im tired of having the HR? Maybe Im jealous of all the nice bikes and full-spension rigs I see at the trails? Maybe Im ashamed of my bike because when people look at it they laugh and think I belong at some skatepark? Maybe I need to take a break from the forums for about a week?

Here is the bottom line:

1. Do you think the HR frame is designed for XC?

2. Will the Dawg be a worthy purchase and will help me take my riding to the next level or will I just end up wasting $600?

3. Could be something as simple as switching to clipless pedals to help improve my technique i.e. climbing, speed, endurance?

4. Am I a whiney little b|tch?

I thought I was, then I wasnt, then I thought I was, then I didnt. The trails one rides determines the type of riding they are limited to right? We dont have north shore type trails here, its mainly XC singletrack. There is a FR/DH park about an hour from me but I'll rarely drive down there as it is too far and the trails are very limited compared to the 150+ miles of intertwined trails about 15 minutes from my house.

Im an XC rider no doubt about it. Maybe Im just being a whiney little b|tch and Im tired of having the HR? Maybe Im jealous of all the nice bikes and full-spension rigs I see at the trails? Maybe Im ashamed of my bike because when people look at it they laugh and think I belong at some skatepark? Maybe I need to take a break from the forums for about a week?

Here is the bottom line:

1. Do you think the HR frame is designed for XC?

2. Will the Dawg be a worthy purchase and will help me take my riding to the next level or will I just end up wasting $600?

3. Could be something as simple as switching to clipless pedals to help improve my technique i.e. climbing, speed, endurance?

4. Am I a whiney little b|tch?

Okay well my opinion is that for XC you dont need that frame. I would go for a hardtail for XC use anyday, but thats myself. Leader bike makes a very nice frame for under 200
http://www.leaderbikeusa.com/products/frameStore.htm
I rode their 2004 frame for a few months and was very happy. The only thing is that you need zero stack (maybe the 05 frame doesnt) which is a nice headset but you might be fixed on using a King or something.
If your doing XC switch to clipless, try this before a frame. Clipless is a huge power boost.
i would not suggest going and buying 200 dollar shoes to match 300 dollar pedals so for 120 a real nice deal from pricepoint can be found here:
http://www.pricepoint.com/detail/13864-285_DIAEC5_KIT-3-Parts-65-Pedals/Diadora-Gecko-Shoes-w_-Egg-Beater-Chrome-Pedals.htm
Endurance and speed come in time. And lastly, keep your seat high. I know with free riding your probably not concerned with maximum pedal efficiency, but for what your doing it will help you a lot

I thought I was, then I wasnt, then I thought I was, then I didnt. The trails one rides determines the type of riding they are limited to right? We dont have north shore type trails here, its mainly XC singletrack. There is a FR/DH park about an hour from me but I'll rarely drive down there as it is too far and the trails are very limited compared to the 150+ miles of intertwined trails about 15 minutes from my house.

Im an XC rider no doubt about it. Maybe Im just being a whiney little b|tch and Im tired of having the HR? Maybe Im jealous of all the nice bikes and full-spension rigs I see at the trails? Maybe Im ashamed of my bike because when people look at it they laugh and think I belong at some skatepark? Maybe I need to take a break from the forums for about a week?

Here is the bottom line:

1. Do you think the HR frame is designed for XC?

2. Will the Dawg be a worthy purchase and will help me take my riding to the next level or will I just end up wasting $600?

3. Could be something as simple as switching to clipless pedals to help improve my technique i.e. climbing, speed, endurance?

4. Am I a whiney little b|tch?

1 - no it isn't. In fact its main selling point was an urban bike. Not even street/park. But just messing around downtown and riding stairs and such. Even the advertising campaign originally had that setup. It is doable but not the best bike for it. Neither is the p2. Even mine and kona's kona's aren't meant for it. Can it be done, yes, but it isn't great at it. However the differences you may have noticed most were a longer chainstay and longer tt. A half inch on either and I notice a huge diff. It isn't a bad thing to be a picky rider. I have three bikes that suit 'their' riding perfectly. If one spec is off the ride doesn't feel right.

2 - Dawg kick ass and has a similar geometry and selling point to a stumpy (I would love to post a comparison to make sure but specialized site SUCKS!!!! so I can't be bothered going through the trouble, I am pretty sure they are similar in geometry). Its a bit more of a xc bike than the current stinky so I guess now a days it is an all mountain machine. Based on the exact design of the 2001 stinky it will be a good all round bike, but the bobby bob bob might counteract that too ;)

3 - Yes it well could. A fork length change, stem change and saddle position change could easily fix the problem. But without someone there looking at how you sit and how the bike fits and knowing the measurements you could spend a long time 'fitting' an ok bike to you. This is where it helps to be as picky as me (and other riders) you know your exact geometry and can buy online. Sounds to me like, even with your experience, you shouldn't buy blind. If you can't test it then right now, in your head anyways, the only bike that fits is that stumpy. Anything else might cause problems.

4 - sometimes. :D ;) :p

As everyone here always says. Comfort is all that matters. Good or bad bike you need one that fits you. Obviously you have come to the point where you found something better. But look at this yourself. Is this like someone thats hungry, do you NEED food or do you want it so bad your brain has convinced itself its hungry? If you NEED it, then get to work finding your next bike. Comfort is what counts.

Three hours is an epic ride?

Three hours is an epic ride?
sounds like a normal day riding the trails to me.

about the dawg, like the others have said, i'd suggest finding a shop near you that sells them. take one for a test ride and see if the geo is to your liking. if it is, go for it and have fun on your new bike :D .

Three hours is an epic ride?

Depends. I have one trail which is 3 hours but the amount of work/force required to ride it is epic. Epic for a pure xc guy is different than epic for someone riding really tech trails. :)...

Agree to a point though generally epic is quite a bit more than 3, but not always imo.

]
3. Could be something as simple as switching to clipless pedals to help improve my technique i.e. climbing, speed, endurance?
Well, since the Stumpy that you liked had more of a head down/butt up posture than your HardRock, I was thinking more along the lines of trying a new stem and new bars.
The HardRock was designed for XC, it's just a little burlier than "normal" light hardtails (whatever that means)

Oh yeah, and if the Stumpjumper felt great, why not just buy a stumpjumper frame???

Well, since the Stumpy that you liked had more of a head down/butt up posture than your HardRock, I was thinking more along the lines of trying a new stem and new bars.
The HardRock was designed for XC, it's just a little burlier than "normal" light hardtails (whatever that means)

Oh yeah, and if the Stumpjumper felt great, why not just buy a stumpjumper frame???

Because they dont sell FSR Stumpy frames for $599 :) .

I took a pic of the HR and thought of flipping the stem. This will give it a negative rise which will let the bars sit much lower. I also thought of making the saddle parallel to the ground unlike its current nose-up angle. Then if its possible Id like to convert my 120mm fork to a 100mm.

Here is the most recent pic of it.

Saddle should be parellel. Even my djer is run that way. Up is just to weird.

Before switching the fork try a longer stem maybe?...

Saddle should be parellel. Even my djer is run that way. Up is just to weird.

Before switching the fork try a longer stem maybe?...

Not switch the fork, convert it. I dont know if thats even possible for air forks with a lockout.

Not switch the fork, convert it. I dont know if thats even possible for air forks with a lockout.
WHat fork are you running now? For XC you probably dont want more than 100mm. On my SID i have 80mm of travel

Manitou Black Super Air 120 with TPC Lockout although I wish I had seen this (http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=86&subcategory=1183&brand=&sku=13885&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=) before I bought it. It was a good deal though, normally retails for $499 and I got it for $260.

I thought I was, then I wasnt, then I thought I was, then I didnt. The trails one rides determines the type of riding they are limited to right? We dont have north shore type trails here, its mainly XC singletrack. There is a FR/DH park about an hour from me but I'll rarely drive down there as it is too far and the trails are very limited compared to the 150+ miles of intertwined trails about 15 minutes from my house.

Im an XC rider no doubt about it. Maybe Im just being a whiney little b|tch and Im tired of having the HR? Maybe Im jealous of all the nice bikes and full-spension rigs I see at the trails? Maybe Im ashamed of my bike because when people look at it they laugh and think I belong at some skatepark? Maybe I need to take a break from the forums for about a week?

Here is the bottom line:

1. Do you think the HR frame is designed for XC?

2. Will the Dawg be a worthy purchase and will help me take my riding to the next level or will I just end up wasting $600?

3. Could be something as simple as switching to clipless pedals to help improve my technique i.e. climbing, speed, endurance?

4. Am I a whiney little b|tch?

Before you go all out on a new frame, try the clipless pedals first.

Do people actually laugh at your bike?

1. The HR is capable of doing XC competently.
2. Depends if you need it or not.
3. Get clipless. The speed difference you gain will probably be about the same as if you switched to an XC hard tail frame. Stick with a solid crank bros. set up with a pair of shoes you like.
4. Not whiney, unnecessarily upgradey :D

What are the trails like? Take pics of them next time. If they're the only thing you're going to be riding it's probably very dependent on your trails.

I really don't think you need this new frame, and if you were to buy a new frame, take a gander at an Explosif or a hard tail to save on money and gain on speed.

2 - Dawg kick ass and has a similar geometry and selling point to a stumpy (I would love to post a comparison to make sure but specialized site SUCKS!!!! so I can't be bothered going through the trouble, I am pretty sure they are similar in geometry).

From what I saw, the geometry between the Stumpy and the Hardrock were similar, while the Dawg was quite different. Here's a link to Specialized's old style website that made comparisons easier

Specialized (Old Site) (http://www.specialized.com/sbcSSMountainBikes.jsp?my=2005)
Stumpy FSR (http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=9664)

Maybe Im ashamed of my bike because when people look at it they laugh and think I belong at some skatepark?

Man, nobody laughs at my Hardrock, and I DON'T have a front fork that costs more than the bike. Of course some of the guys I ride with have X-mart bikes...

From what I saw, the geometry between the Stumpy and the Hardrock were similar, while the Dawg was quite different. Here's a link to Specialized's old style website that made comparisons easier

Specialized (Old Site) (http://www.specialized.com/sbcSSMountainBikes.jsp?my=2005)
Stumpy FSR (http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=9664)


That rocks thanks. I stopped going to the specialized site with the new super slow super ugly I am a dumb web designer site.

Cheers

As an aside, don't you just hate it when companies get all Flash happy? Why do companies insist on you having a 3 ghz machine with half a gig of memory and broadband just to be able to view a website of largely static content? mini-rant over :D

As an aside, don't you just hate it when companies get all Flash happy? Why do companies insist on you having a 3 ghz machine with half a gig of memory and broadband just to be able to view a website of largely static content? mini-rant over :D
I concur. Look at Fox Racing Shox's website... :rolleyes: :D