Why are tandems slow climbers? (In General)

[mtbcyclist]

Ok before I start a flame fest here I am talking "IN GENERAL". I know there are some teams that can climb quite well because I ride with one frequently. Also I am not trying to insult anybody I am just trying to understand.

For sake of comparision if you compare your average single rider to your average tandem team climbing up a good size hill the single (seems to) always win. Why is that?

[TandemGeek]

From the archives: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=49147&postcount=11

[zonatandem]

Teamwork/ability/inertia

[galen_52657]

Tandems behave differently than singles. For one thing, momentom lost on a tandem is much harder to regain. Once a climbing speed is arived at, it's hard to climb faster. Most teams cannot just stand up and start pounding a huge gear up a hill like can be done on a single.

That being said, in my limited experience I have found that the tandem climbing rate is usually about mid way between the ability of the two riders.

[stapfam]

Tandems behave differently than singles. For one thing, momentom lost on a tandem is much harder to regain. Once a climbing speed is arived at, it's hard to climb faster. Most teams cannot just stand up and start pounding a huge gear up a hill like can be done on a single.

That being said, in my limited experience I have found that the tandem climbing rate is usually about mid way between the ability of the two riders.

Two very valid points amongst probably quite a few. On top of that you have to have an experienced team that works. The gear chages are generrally a factor aswell. I know that On a single,I am up and down the gears, according to energy level, terrain and leg strength. On a Tandem You start off in a high gear and go down, very rarely do we change back up to a higher gear again, even though cadence may go up a bit on certain parts of a hill.

Why worry about hill speed though, providing you can get up them. On the flat, when you wind it up it is so easy to maintain a high speed without a great deal of effort, and the downhills are only slowed down by how loud the stoker can scream.

[Retro Grouch]

Ok before I start a flame fest here I am talking "IN GENERAL". I know there are some teams that can climb quite well because I ride with one frequently. Also I am not trying to insult anybody I am just trying to understand.

For sake of comparision if you compare your average single rider to your average tandem team climbing up a good size hill the single (seems to) always win. Why is that?

I think that it's the motor. My wife and I have been tandeming for almost 30 years. Virtually all of the tandem teams that we know are couples who choose to ride a tandem because they aren't closely matched physically. Without a tandem it would very hard for the two of them to stay very close together for extended rides.

Climbing an extended hill is essentially a power to weight issue. A tandem has essentially twice the weight of a single bike but two riders. The problem is one of those riders likely isn't as fit as the other and can't contribute as much to the climb. Tandems have twice the weight but usually don't have twice the power.

[BryanKeith]

Why worry about hill speed though, providing you can get up them. On the flat, when you wind it up it is so easy to maintain a high speed without a great deal of effort, and the downhills are only slowed down by how loud the stoker can scream.

Hahaha. I told my wife (the stoker) this just before we started a fast downhill back home on an after work ride last Thursday. We had done a nice climb as well, of course, and later when I asked her if she was sore, she said, "yeah, my throat hurts!"

[cornucopia72]

We wanted to bring this topic back for some time. Now we have some time... As we are sure it is obvious, English is our second language…. so please bare with us.

We read the postings in this thread and in other similar threads in the past. We believe there is one factor that may have been mentioned and we missed it and that makes some tandem teams slower in the hills. One way to describe this factor could be: "differences in power output during the stroke cycle" This idea came out when someone was talking about OOP and how his stoker tended to "stop" the pedals at 6:00/12:00 o'clock…. if we understood right. Is there a way to test this?

Although we are not matched perfectly, both of us can climb faster on our singles than we do in the tandem. It is the long, 5 to 10 % hills, where we loose the most ground to single riders. Surprisingly in the really long and steep >10% climbs we do comparatively much better. This fact, made us think that frame flex may not be a big factor for us. We have tried high cadence. We have been spinning on a fix gear stationary to smooth our stroke for at least three hours a week for more than a year. We both wear HR monitors.

We live near the foothills of the Sierras in the Central Valley of California and we want to climb as efficiently as we can. Any ideas or feedback will be greatly appreciated.

[Peak Team]

I concur with this analysis following a recent trip to the Pyrenees. We were able to ride <5% hills as fast or quicker than many solo bikes, 5-10% we were much slower than the solos.

Having riden 10-25% hills on a tandem and solo bike in the UK I fine the limiting factor is gearing options.

It is certainly harder to anticipate hills of a tandem and get out of the saddle in advance - very tough for the stoker I suspect. This would certianly contribute to the loss of momentum.

One options is probably to cycle areas that have steep hills rather than long 10% gradients. From memory that should be possible in the Sierras.

[Murrays]

We took our CoMo Speedster on the hilliest group ride on our schedule a couple weeks ago. We used our lowest gear (32x32 I believe) quite a bit, but we passed numerous other cyclists along the way.

On the hardest climb (~10% for .9 mile) we were between 75-80 rpms for nearly the whole way. This hill makes me cry with my 39x25 on my road bike so I’d say it was a bit easier on the tandem, but mainly due to the lower gearing.

In the end, it was a very satisfying ride, though a bit tiring :)

-murray

[stapfam]

We took our CoMo Speedster on the hilliest group ride on our schedule a couple weeks ago. We used our lowest gear (32x32 I believe) quite a bit, but we passed numerous other cyclists along the way.

On the hardest climb (~10% for .9 mile) we were between 75-80 rpms for nearly the whole way. This hill makes me cry with my 39x25 on my road bike so I’d say it was a bit easier on the tandem, but mainly due to the lower gearing.

In the end, it was a very satisfying ride, though a bit tiring :)

-murray
My lowest gear on the tandem is 24/32 and offroad on some of our Enduro events this is just a bit too tall a gear for the more severe long climbs- the legs pump up for too long. What have found though is that short sharp hills up to about 400yards we can blast, whether offroad or on road. Longer hills we settle into a rhythm at the bottom of the hill, and just grind. The longer the hill,The more we gain on the solos, But there is no way we can blast up them. Even trying to put in a spurt from a steady pace is difficult, as momentum is not there. What is possible though is to gradually build up speed from a steady pace, and once the momentum has been gained it can be maintained. There is nothing more satisfying to us than to catch that fit solo rider that blasted from the bottom of the hill, just before the crest of the hill.

[zonatandem]

Tandems are 'generally' slower uphill 'cause they are so much faster going downhill!
Again: Teanmwork, ability, inertia!

[DocF]

Gee, tandems slow uphill? I hadn't noticed, but then I'm slow on my solo bike too.

Doc

[Ironfist]

Hmm, I have noticed this also. 15 years ago I would invariably drop the bunch whenever the road pointed uphill, now on the tandem with the Mrs ... like a snail.

Obviously it can't be the extra 4 stones of weight I have put on in the interim so it must be this "tandems are slower uphill" phenomonen. :)

[merlinextraligh]

tandems will climb just fine, particularly if the tandem team can climb out of the saddle. Tandems only seem slow on hills because they're faster on the flats. Given the aerodynamics, a tandem team of 2 equally strong riders will be faster on the flats than either rider by themself. ( 2times the horsepower, and only slightly more than 1 times the wind resistence). However, when it comes to climbing, the aerodynamic advantage becomes mostly irrelevant. So on the hill it's 2 times the power, approximately 2 times the weight, and the advantage over the single rider is lost. Thus, comparatively weaker riders on a tandem that can keep up with a stronger single rider on the flat, ut bcan't match the single rider's pace on the hill. But it's not because tandems can't climb; its because they go so well on the flats.

[cking2]

Climbing an extended hill is essentially a power to weight issue. A tandem has essentially twice the weight of a single bike but two riders. The problem is one of those riders likely isn't as fit as the other and can't contribute as much to the climb. Tandems have twice the weight but usually don't have twice the power.

Yup, weak stoker :D , that is what I always blame it on. But kidding aside, I really think that is it. When the comparison between tandems and singles on up and down hills is raised it is usaully on some group ride where you have a mix of singles and a few tandems. We saw it on our MS fundraiser rides. So, we get to the top of a hill and start kicking butt but then some of those same riders start to pass on the next rise.

But, who are they? Typically the strongest riders. The more average riders are a few miles back at the last sag table.

My point is simple-this comparison is usually between one strong single rider and a mismatched tandem pair. I would bet if you pitted that mismatched tandem pair agenst a more average rider, the differences would seem slight. Or if you had two equally strong riders on a tandem that fit properly.

Not to mention, some people love hills and some hate them. My ex-stoker always hated hills and all the "c'mon, honeys' would not get her too excited to try harder nor did she seem to care that all those guys were passing us. Meanwhile, I would avoid all eye contact out of shame...prefering to wait for that next downhill.

My 2cents-ck

[ken cummings]

The rest of you have said it so well. I am just recalling one of the most exciting bits of bike writing I can recall. A catagory 2 Captain (male) and a cat 3 stoker (also male) entered the Death Ride (tour of the California Alps) several years ago. The stoker was the great writer. They "Won". As in first to finish or best time or however it was figured. They could climb with just about all the racers standing and all. The captain didn't use the brakes on the descents much if at all. He ignored the stokers' screaming. Much hooting and yelling of Your are First from people going up hills. The article? in some old California Cyclist I believe. In the looooong haul the tandems start with the solo riders in the Race Across AMerica. Not as fast as the relay teams. Something about not being able to coordinate all the different body functions. Check the UMCA site for details.