Advocacy & Safety - Experiment: should right turn on red be make illegal.

Today I noticed as every other day...Please, help me Conduct an experiment...
Watch motorist as they prepare to make right turns on red...You can predict their actions by their eye movements...I have been doing this the last couple days from the safety of the cross walk , where all the pedestarians park themselves - prior to getting the white ok to cross..
I challenge you..poll them..watch their eye movements...
They look to their left..straight ahead....They do know cross walks are for pedestarians..Do they not?
I notice..most ocassions...no more than 60% on a GOOD day look to their right and scope out the cross walk for pedestarians, while they are waiting on red...
..What do you see. You need to know for your own safety...Because I no longer trust them..I do not walk out without acting like a school guard to assure they will yield to my 'ok' to cross sign..all I need is a stop sign as given to the school guards..
appreciate you assessment... do more than 40% look to the right to see if pedestarians are crossing?
... if you agree with me..almost half are negligent ?.. do we need end 'right turn on red,' not just for cyclists ,but for pedestarians as well....just a couple weeks ago, I saw a motorist nail a young kid at the cross walk on a bike...sure these conditions I mention were the case with the young grade schooler...
sorry..on one of my rants...a pet pieve...

I haven't done a scientific investigation, but I can vouch for this fact as well. When I ride on the sidewalk (I know, bad bad) and have to cross or turn, I make sure I establish eye contact before doing so. I've nearly been nailed a few times I haven't. In fact, this is one of the things that's made me start practicing soft-core VC. I agree that right-turns on red should be made illegal, for everyone's safety.

I think you are spot-on about people not looking to the right because they don't expect a threat to be there. However, I doubt that revoking right-on-red laws would help any at this point. They do the same thing at 4-way stops. They aren't going to stop unless there is a threat to them. If they couldn't right on red, I doubt you would see any difference in whether they actually stop or scan to the right or not.

twahl..ONe little problem...Pedestarians have the right of way..that is the law...By, what right do motorists have the right to take away their right to safely cross the street or do we need to build pedestarians overpasses on every corner.
talking to people about their experiences, ...And have noticed....If motorist actually yields to those in the cross walks...as they legally have to ..Someone behind them starts honking madly or even hits the stopped car in their arse...these people are nuts...
another problem..I recall the newspapers in LA called the number of people killed crossing at cross walks to be out of control...numbers , I forget... you abuse a right..you should loose it.
I think I intend to call my local state legislator and talk about this matter.

I would say they don't look, one day I got hit while crossing the street (I was in the cross walk, and there is no light, so I did have the right of way, and she was stopped so I started to cross), The woman looked to her left, looked to her right, but (apparently) not infront of her, where I was when she hit the gas. The good news was since she was stop and I was only inches from her car, all that happen was I triped on her car, and fell onto her hood. The look on her face though did make it worth it, since I did not get hurt. As I walked away I said "You should whatch where you are going" and went on my way.

Many drivers don't even stop anymore. They just look, see that their right turn is clear, then blast through at 10mph+. You know what's sad: this one day I was driving on the right turn lane, and it was red. There was this old lady waiting to cross at the island, and FIVE CARS just blasted past her without even stopping. I swear, people just think they have the right of way at all times. Who even stops for you anymore on those streets with the walking person sign? No one. Blah I hate the RUSH RUSHHHHH mentality, people are driving too closely to each other too, and when something happens, they blame others, haha, I can't believe it. When I drive now, I coast as much as possible to save gas, and at the same time, piss off those RUSH RUSH RUSH people. Why should you drive so fast when you're going to save 2-3 mins max, and at the same time, risk your and other peoples' lives and also make your life worse because you have to concentrate more when you're tailgating, lskdalkjwkljg so stupid.

Um, in California the traffic is so bad that for all intents and purposes you can't do a right turn until you get a green anyway so why beat this dead horse?

I have almost been hit twice now...crosswalks adjacent to malls both times...if they have 10 feet in which to move they will.

It wouldn't change a thing. There are several intersections in Silicon Valley where right on red is prohibited by sign. At least a dozen drivers flagrantly ignore this each red cycle.

Damn right and we ignore that whole "carpool lane" thing too!

grumble grumble grumble we need more butts out of cars and onto bikes.....

So how does changing the right turn on red make things better? All the cars in question will eventually turn right. And since they are turning withthe light they are more apt to be turning at speed and to look even LESS.

OH wait we could prohibit all right turns. That would fix the problem.

It has already happened in Canada. Time for it to come south...

Keith...if making a right on green , doubt the pedestarians have the white go ahead for the cross walk..just a matter of co-ordinating the ligths so that when pedestarians have the right to go, the street is all theirs and no one elses..

Experiment: should right turn on red be made illegal?

It should stay illegal here in Australia. :)

This is why sidewalk-type bike paths that encourage contra-flow cycling are so dangerous compared to roadway cycling. Right-turning motorists hitting contra-flow sidewalk cyclists outnumber overtaking-type collisions by an order of magnitude where I live.

http://www.gabwhacker.com/xwp/bluequill/ellipses.asp

Properly used, the ellipsis conveys a world of emotional meaning; improperly used, it makes characters sound like spaced-out valley girls who can't string together a coherent thought.

The way the lights are timed in downtown Houston, the flow of pedestrians is often so heavy that motorists often have difficulty turning right while the light is green; the right turn on red can be seen as time for the motorist to finally have an opportunity to turn. Certain intersections are marked as prohibiting turns on red, usually for traffic-flow reasons more than safety. One thing I do know is that if no rights turns are allowed on red at all, I would be seriously slowed as a bicyclist, assuming I am riding in the street in "vehicle mode" as is my normal practice. This would especially be true in my home city of Bellaire, where many of the side streets have sensors that keep the light facing the side streets red until a larger vehicle comes along to trip the sensor. I cannot speak for other regions, but legal right turns on red, and legal left turns on red when both streets are one-way streets, seems to work well in my part of Texas, from the aspects of both safety and traffic flow, IMHO.

Um, in California the traffic is so bad that for all intents and purposes you can't do a right turn until you get a green anyway so why beat this dead horse?

Maybe in Sunnyvale... But in San Diego they still right on red and rarely look for anything but a bus coming their way. Red is a slow green to many folks...

Having recently been downtown for jury duty, I also thought it amazing how many motorists just plowed through the peds crossing the street. This is not to say all or a majority, but that there were enough that just did not understand the concept that peds have the right of way.

Watch motorist as they prepare to make right turns on red...no more than 60% on a GOOD day look to their right and scope out the cross walk for pedestarians, while they are waiting on red......
As a ped, I shout, clap my hands or do something loud to get their attention (a whistle is great.) They turn and look towards me, I wave and smile, and proceed to walk in front of their car. Then they have to start looking for a gap in traffic all over again.

Sorry about that, Mr. Motorist, but I've become accustomed to living life without a wheelchair.

What's the deal with eye contact. **** eye contact, they will happily plow into you even after making eye contact. Dangerous and unreliable at best.

Get rid of that habit.

As a ped, I shout, clap my hands or do something loud to get their attention (a whistle is great.) They turn and look towards me, I wave and smile, and proceed to walk in front of their car. Then they have to start looking for a gap in traffic all over again.

Sorry about that, Mr. Motorist, but I've become accustomed to living life without a wheelchair.

ha ha! you don't need one Pete...you've got that car horn strapped on your bike!

It has already happened in Canada. Time for it to come south...

No it hasn't.

I'm probably joining this a little late but I had the most absurd thins happen to me today. I'm at my college at the intersection at the middle of campus. I stop and let a car pass, then step out into the crosswalk since there were no other cars. I didn't take 3 steps before the car backed up fast while turning right and I was going over the front fender and sliding accorss the hood onto the pavement.

I was livid, this guy must have realized he missed his turn and didn't look before he just reversed in the wrong direction in the lane! I started yellin at him and kicked a nice dent in his door before he just peeled out and drove off before I could open his door and drag him out.

For pete's sake, your driving on a college campus and going the wrong direction in a lane without looking, hit someone, then drive off? I'm not jurt, I'm just pissed. If I see him again on campus I'm gonna kick his a**.

Operator..makes a good point. make eye contact? Right. the idea behind my 'survey,' is to see if they feel a need to make eye contact with us. quite often no. I think the stop sign idea would be the most effective.

Drivers pay very little attention to pedestrians or to crosswalks.

At one particular intersection, I see people get nearly hit by right-turn-on-red drivers all the time. Many drivers don't even stop. Drivers going the other way and turning left on green (across the same crosswalk) are just as bad. Many won't even yield to pedestrians who are already in the crosswalk, let alone pedestrians who are on the curb.

A right turn on red should only be made AFTER yielding to pedestrians. A yielding left turn on green should only be made AFTER yielding to pedestrians.

The other day I was behind an idiot who was making a left on green just as a person with a white cane with a red tip stepped of the curb. The idiot turned anyway. If you're in such a hurry that you almost hit a blind person legally crossing the street, then you're in too big a hurry.

Let's look at the bigger picture:

1. roads available for vehicle traffic have increased about 10% in last 30 years
2. traffic has increased about 200% in last 30 years
3. politicans think "stop signs" and "stop light" mean safety and little political risk.
4. stop signs/lights are exploding like dandilions in the spring
5. commute times have at least doubled in last 10 years
6. most vehicle drivers think of their vehicle as a home/office on wheels and driving is secondary to major function of connecting to others and getting work done
7. nuclear family has been reduced to nuclear individual in many people's mind. There is no community, it's all about me baby.

All this leads to some drivers short cutting safety. Right turn on red is a safety valve for some of traffic frustration. More yield and less stop signs would also help to relieve frustration.

What is needed is a Go Fast plan for the new intersection technology that uses effective sensors when cyclists and pedesterians are in the intersection. A white walk light and crosswalk lines don't cut it. The solution proposed is to have blinking lights in the road way so drivers see there are active slow moving objects in the intersection, i.e. bikers and walkers.

The only other thing that would help is emphasis on drivers tests in all states that priority on streets is slowest moving object to fastest moving object. Just like aircraft, a balloon has priority over a jet. So a walker has priority over a vehicle. But you need to balance that with enforced laws that restrict slow moving walkers from jay walking.

Europe's solution is to make vehicle front ends softer so less legs are broken on vehicle-walker accidents.

An ideal solution would be to prohibit with loss of vehicle on second violation:
1. cell phone conversations while operating a vehicle
2. dictaphone or taping while operating a vehicle

Good luck getting the above passed. Changing right turn on red from legal to illegal will not solve the problem. We need a solution which

1. gets better balance between drivers and available roadway growth rates
2. gets non-drivers out of individual vehicles and into group vehicles, from trucks to light rails
3. strongly rewards individuals with smallest footprint on resources, i.e. cyclists.

I think NY drivers are more alert to pedestrians. If not, a lot of pedestrians would be dead by now. Come to think of it, NY pedestrians seem to have MORE power than NY drivers.

And what's up with right turn on red? That's 3 points on your license + $150 fine here!

So Hi Yo is saying..we need impliment technology to make up for the selfish, illegal actions of motorists.

I would be happy to see right turn on red made illegal. It is supposed to be right turn on red after stop, but most people don't stop. They roll through the intersection. If it slows traffic down, great. If it makes people frustrated, great. Maybe they will look towards alternative forms of transportation.

Cyclezealot,

you got it. ;-)

rs00,
They'll still roll thru intersections and make right turns and will not increase alternative transportation. Why change when you can roll around town in your own private tank?
The latest blip in gas prices has not had significant effect on purchase of private tanks, changing right turn on red would not effect it either. Now, a levy of $25 paid monthly to DMV for the "priviledge" of driving a vehicle over 4,200 lbs, that might have effect. It's high enough to get attention and levied monthly, so can't pay and forget like the "gas guzzler" tax.

I would be happy to see right turn on red made illegal. It is supposed to be right turn on red after stop, but most people don't stop. They roll through the intersection. If it slows traffic down, great. If it makes people frustrated, great. Maybe they will look towards alternative forms of transportation.

I'm with you. When I was growing up, right-on-red was not only illegal, but unimaginable.

I think people should be conditioned -- hard wired -- to react on signals. Red should mean "stop", green should mean "go". Exceptions like right-on-red lead us down the proverbial "slippery slope." I think that red light running has greatly increased since that law was passed. Driving and cycling is largely habit, and we should do all we can to reinforce safe habit patterns.

Paul

Cyclezealot,

you got it. ;-)

rs00,
They'll still roll thru intersections and make right turns and will not increase alternative transportation. Why change when you can roll around town in your own private tank?
The latest blip in gas prices has not had significant effect on purchase of private tanks, changing right turn on red would not effect it either. Now, a levy of $25 paid monthly to DMV for the "priviledge" of driving a vehicle over 4,200 lbs, that might have effect. It's high enough to get attention and levied monthly, so can't pay and forget like the "gas guzzler" tax.
Nah....If you can put $100 bills in the gas tank of a Hummer weekly. $42 monthly overweight charge for an overwight vehicle is nothing.

I'm with you. When I was growing up, right-on-red was not only illegal, but unimaginable.

I think people should be conditioned -- hard wired -- to react on signals. Red should mean "stop", green should mean "go". Exceptions like right-on-red lead us down the proverbial "slippery slope." I think that red light running has greatly increased since that law was passed. Driving and cycling is largely habit, and we should do all we can to reinforce safe habit patterns.

Paul

I disagree with the reaction to signals. This is exactly the kind of thoughtless programming that leads to accidents. If you simply turn right when the light is green, a blind pedestrian may be in the crosswalk, and he always has the right of way.

Sorry for the late post. It seems like all the posts so far are biased towards the bicycle commuter with no balance towards sharing the road. If you actually talk to the law or government officials, they would call this an enforcement issue. Basically, there ARE laws to protect the people in the cross walk. If people are violating a law, you don't make the law MORE restrictive--you need to start enforcing the law (patrols, write tickets), or make it easier to comply with the law (post more signs, awareness campaign, pedestrian sensors and flashing lights, etc).

Someone made a comment about "selfish motorists". Seems like some people are selfish bicyclists. Taking away right on red because people don't stop or look is akin to reducing the speed limit because too many people are speeding... its not a solution, it sounds more like a punishment, and it only asks for more problems.

MOST drivers do comply with the laws. (Otherwise we'd have utter chaos in the roads... okay so it may seem so in some places) Those laws include yielding to pedestrians, stopping before making a right-on-red, and looking for potential hazards in the road. Don't ruin it for the majority because a few are too stupid to follow the law.

Further, many places consider bicyclists to be required to follow motor vehicle laws. This means you don't get to use the crosswalk. It also means you are able to use the roadway instead of the sidewalk. You can't have it both ways.

In my area, especially my morning commute, "right turn on red" means "right turn keep moving" for most drivers. Same for stop signs. It's commonplace to have people shoot right out in front of my on the 2-lane road I use to get to the subway station. Good think I just put new brakes on the Honda.

btw, I'd NEVER commute by bicycle on this road. I'd be dead by now if I did.

RTOR is illegal in NYC unless otherwise posted. People get very annoyed at me when I'm driving outside of NYC because I tend to forget that it's even an option. :D

Well, when I am out, I don't see anyone that looks for anything. I have seen a lot of close calls for right on red. Most of them are those dam Honda, that they spend $10,000 in Mods on a $1,000 car. Just crazy. Also here in Madison you can use the sidewalks and crosswalks. Only time I do is when I am bet and don't want to fight with cagers that don't want to share the road. If that take away this law then they will take away the left on red law (Note: Here in Wiscoscon you can make a left on red on a one-way road to another one-way road). I ride the streets a lot, more then the bike paths, but I like to use these laws too. I just think you need to keep your head up, you 'driving' a 20 pound car. So 'drive' and follow the rules, everyone!

GEEK

Making right on red illegal won't reduce at all the need of the pedestrian or sidewalk cyclist to make sure the motorist is not proceeding before they move in front of them, because making right on red illegal doesn't mean they won't do it.

Given the obvious advantages of right on red, whether riding or driving, and the fact that the behavior and responsibility of pedestrians and sidewalk cyclists would not be affected (for the reason stated above), I would oppose making right on red illegal.