Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Level Components Track Hub

Does anybody use one yet? I like the look of them, but would welcome some feedback before I commit myself.

Someone forgot to equip with the "search" spell before this quest. Now we all shall suffer.

English? Code? Can't work that one out.

Use the search.
Level hubs have been discussed at length and reviewed several times. It appears those that have used them rate them highly but others are concerned about the proprietary cog design.

Yes, he just means that if you do some searches, you'll find many multipage discussions about them. In short, no one seems to question the quality of the hubs, but some are concerned about locking themselves into a proprietary cog design. Everyone who has them seems to enjoy them quite a bit.

peace,
sam

I am leaning away from them. They seem good, the information provided seems good. But I just can't make that jump.. 250 jump... for a hub that may become it's own thing ala the CHUB HUB.

I am leaning away from them. They seem good, the information provided seems good. But I just can't make that jump.. 250 jump... for a hub that may become it's own thing ala the CHUB HUB.

Yeah, I'm with the angry guy on this one. Nobody's gonna stop making traditional cogs and lockrings anytime soon, but you never know if the new thing's going to catch on or just disappear.

Call me boring.

And now this is officially a new thread about the level hubs. Look what you've done!!

Actually, just to add some fuel to the fire, I've always felt that using threads to affix something that has to withstand torque loading was always a silly choice, that was probably made early on because of ease and cost of manufacturing, not an actual performance benefit.

You can make stronger, lighterweight systems that use splines of some sort that the cog can float on, which is exactly the direction that motorcycle disc brakes went many years ago, with full floating rotors. Very lightweight, and incredibly strong.

I'm not a fan of constantly reinventing the wheel, but at the same time, you can't tie yourself too hard to the past. Under the right set of circumstances, I could see a few manufacturers getting together and agreeing on a new cog spec. Imagine being able to change cogs with nothing more than an allen wrench, no need for two big long tools just to change a cog, the wrench on your multitool would do the job. Stripped cogs would be a thing of the past. You'd destroy the rim before ripping the cog off its splines.

Now, I don't know if Level can generate the support from the industry required to change this design from 'obscure and proprietary' to 'readily available and standardized', but if they can, I'd support that change.

peace,
sam

[QUOTE=jim-bob]Yeah, I'm with the angry guy on this one. [QUOTE]


Who are you calling angry?

And now this is officially a new thread about the level hubs. Look what you've done!!

Actually, just to add some fuel to the fire, I've always felt that using threads to affix something that has to withstand torque loading was always a silly choice, that was probably made early on because of ease and cost of manufacturing, not an actual performance benefit.

You can make stronger, lighterweight systems that use splines of some sort that the cog can float on, which is exactly the direction that motorcycle disc brakes went many years ago, with full floating rotors. Very lightweight, and incredibly strong.

I'm not a fan of constantly reinventing the wheel, but at the same time, you can't tie yourself too hard to the past. Under the right set of circumstances, I could see a few manufacturers getting together and agreeing on a new cog spec. Imagine being able to change cogs with nothing more than an allen wrench, no need for two big long tools just to change a cog, the wrench on your multitool would do the job. Stripped cogs would be a thing of the past. You'd destroy the rim before ripping the cog off its splines.

Now, I don't know if Level can generate the support from the industry required to change this design from 'obscure and proprietary' to 'readily available and standardized', but if they can, I'd support that change.

peace,
sam

Good Post Sam. William, you really should search on the other threads about the Level Hubs. There is no chance that Level would become anything like CHUB HUBS. The Chub Hubs had nothing unique about them, except for their unique look, and their unique ability to fail during rides.

The Level Hubs are severely overbuilt, and although it is a niche right now, it is the smartest advance in hubs I've seen since pulling the training wheels off my bike. Before selling these in Canada, I rode a set for months and still do. The ride has been smooth with absolutely no issues whatsoever.

The hubs are beefy looking (perhaps the reason for the Chub Hub comparison) but I believe that these guys are here to stay.

The challenege that Level has right now, is to compete in the market segment that they are currently placed, based on their pricing. They are head-on competing with Phil, Campy and DA hubs.

Right now, nobody can say whether Level is BETTER or worse than any of these hubs. From what I have seen, read, and tested they are as good or better with respect to the design, durability and finish of the hubs. LONG TERM, we'll have to see how these hubs are in 2, 3 or 5 years...

I do love the Level Cog design, and if you ever get the chance to see one up close, you'll really see what a great design it is, and how amazing their cogs are...They are beefy, stainless and never have a thread to worry about...I personally love them (if you haven't guessed by now).

We've been selling them like crazy (in fact we've been sold out for weeks) and hopefully we'll get some more in later this summer.

Yeah, I'm with the angry guy on this one. Nobody's gonna stop making traditional cogs and lockrings anytime soon, but you never know if the new thing's going to catch on or just disappear.

Call me boring.

You're boring. Go eat some pie.

Lots of people are so locked into a gear choice that they choose it as their nick. I like to change ratios often, to suit my day-to-day strength level. Being a racer that can vary quite a bit depending on if I raced the day before, if I want to put a governor on my pace do to an impending race or whatever. If this sounds like something you'd like to be able to do, pull the trigger on the Levels. Quite a nice looking hub; smooth, resistant to torque and such. Pretty. Innovative.

Many here are not old enough to remember the pre-STI days. All the pros persisted for several years with using down-tube shift levers. Finally they started losing races to people with STI, BECAUSE OF it. That forced the switch.

The ability to easily change ratios; and the resistance to stripping makes it worth choosing over the other hubs out there. The quality is certainly on par. As far as Scott's ability to make Level a viable buisness in the years to come, all we can do is support him and intend for these hubs to catch on. I really think the anology between friction-downtube and click-shift-handlebar shifting is valid. It is a paradigm shift that just transforms things completely. I mean, why live in the past just because other people do so...of course I'd say that if you're happy with what you have, keep rolling with it, but if you're looking to buy...go for it.

You're boring. Go eat some pie.

Lots of people are so locked into a gear choice that they choose it as their nick. I like to change ratios often, to suit my day-to-day strength level. Being a racer that can vary quite a bit depending on if I raced the day before, if I want to put a governor on my pace do to an impending race or whatever. If this sounds like something you'd like to be able to do, pull the trigger on the Levels. Quite a nice looking hub; smooth, resistant to torque and such. Pretty. Innovative.

Many here are not old enough to remember the pre-STI days. All the pros persisted for several years with using down-tube shift levers. Finally they started losing races to people with STI, BECAUSE OF it. That forced the switch.

The ability to easily change ratios; and the resistance to stripping makes it worth choosing over the other hubs out there. The quality is certainly on par. As far as Scott's ability to make Level a viable buisness in the years to come, all we can do is support him and intend for these hubs to catch on. I really think the anology between friction-downtube and click-shift-handlebar shifting is valid. It is a paradigm shift that just transforms things completely. I mean, why live in the past just because other people do so...of course I'd say that if you're happy with what you have, keep rolling with it, but if you're looking to buy...go for it.

I get what you're saying. The Level does look like a better design, granted, but I'm more afraid that support for it will dry up. If it's still out there in four or five years when I need a new hub, I just might pick one up, but until then I'm happy with my good ol' threaded flip-flop hub. I don't change gearing all that much, and when I do I'm pretty alright with the three-tooth difference between sides.

Can I still have some pie?


Who are you calling angry?

You, snuggles.

You, snuggles.

Oh. I'm not angry. Just bitterly mis understood.

Good Post Sam. William, you really should search on the other threads about the Level Hubs. There is no chance that Level would become anything like CHUB HUBS. The Chub Hubs had nothing unique about them, except for their unique look, and their unique ability to fail during rides.
The Level Hubs are severely overbuilt, and although it is a niche right now, it is the smartest advance in hubs I've seen since pulling the training wheels off my bike. Before selling these in Canada, I rode a set for months and still do. .

You sound just like the Chub hub hype. Seriously.



but I believe that these guys are here to stay.The challenege that Level has right now, is to compete in the market segment that they are currently placed, based on their pricing. They are head-on competing with Phil, Campy and DA hubs..

Your belief, everyone else's "their cool" factor, the (honestly) well thought out design: Doesn't mean crap to me when it's all said and done. I took the advice of many about a suzue basic hub. That cost me more time and agravation than I'm willing to spend. Money aside.



Right now, nobody can say whether Level is BETTER or worse than any of these hubs..

Anyone can. The other upper level hubs have what Level doesn't have yet: A reputation of quality. Will Level have this in the future? Perhaps. But I'd rather not have to gamble my nickel. Dig it?


LONG TERM, we'll have to see how these hubs are in 2, 3 or 5 years....
Yes. Long Term. And if they hold, I'll get one. In the CURRENT TERM, I'll get a Paul or a Phil. Likely a Paul.




I do love the Level Cog design, and if you ever get the chance to see one up close, you'll really see what a great design it is, and how amazing their cogs are....

I kind of have that trouble. Not many people sell them. Which further limits my ability to put faith in them. I see the others nearly every day. And they work.




They are beefy, stainless and never have a thread to worry about...I personally love them (if you haven't guessed by now)..

Well, you sell them, so I'd say you have a vested interest.

I've searched, asked and heard a lot. There's just not enough to give me that comfort factor that's required for a leap of faith like this. I'm not posting or shooting from the hip, I've done the time.

I really think the anology between friction-downtube and click-shift-handlebar shifting is valid. It is a paradigm shift that just transforms things completely. .

I agree and understand. Completely.


I mean, why live in the past just because other people do so...of course I'd say that if you're happy with what you have, keep rolling with it, but if you're looking to buy...go for it.

This "attack the buyer on the personal level" is BS. "live in the past" because people choose not to buy something that is AT THIS TIME NOT PROVEN OVER THE TEST OF TIME... C'mon. You're smarter than that, right?

Tell me, what makes the Level hub BETTER than a Phil or Paul with a properly installed lock ring?
At this point, it's only different. And not proven yet.

Will- get the Phil's. The Pauls haven't been around all that long and if you search there's been threads about the big nut cracking. I was looking at Paul's but like you said, why risk it? Phil's baby.

Paul "troubles":

http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=998673&postcount=21
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=87378&highlight=paul+hubs
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=84006&highlight=paul+hubs

Ahh Abnstr. Once again you light up areas that I was un aware of. I owe you for things I can't put paper value to. You rock man. Thanks.

No worries WK. Since I know you've been wanting to build these wheels and the entire bike forever and that every penny needs to go a long way, I thought I'd point out potential issues with the Paul.s I have no doubt that they're a good product but again, if money is tight, go with something pretty bombproof and reputable.

Well, actually. Money was just about to loosen up a little.

Then, braces for the little one.

So, back to what ever I don't spend on gass.

Not that I'm poor, I just don't want to rack up any CC debt.

I've searched, asked and heard a lot. There's just not enough to give me that comfort factor that's required for a leap of faith like this. I'm not posting or shooting from the hip, I've done the time.

Fair enough. There is a reason that Phil Wood hubs have the reputation for such high quality, because they are. Hopefully some LBS start carrying them so people can get a fair look/shot at these.

Perhaps Level will get a reputation after some years of being in the market. I agree that it is a lot of money to put your faith into, when you have other tried and true options.

For us, as a business we do support smaller companies like ourselves and were lucky enough to stumble onto level early last year. We took a chance and have had great success with them (riding and selling).

As for vested interest, please don't think that I support Level on this thread simply because we sell them. We sell Campy Hubs, Phil Hubs, IRO Hubs, and Miche Hubs as well.

I just think that Level needs some people who have used them to speak up for them. Afterall, how did Phil Woods get the reputation. Someone had to buy the first one. We've sold a bunch of them, as have the folks at HubJub in the UK so I am sure other folks should be piping in eventually (good or bad).

Cheers
Rob

I hear ya - still, I'd want the best (tried and true) hubs I could get for that money.

Agreed.

I will say that I do like what Level is doing and would love to see them be around in five years and maybe the whole cog spec thing will change. Time will tell.

For us, as a business we do support smaller companies like ourselves and were lucky enough to stumble onto level early last year. We took a chance and have had great success with them (riding and selling).

I just think that Level needs some people who have used them to speak up for them. Afterall, how did Phil Woods get the reputation. Someone had to buy the first one. We've sold a bunch of them, as have the folks at HubJub in the UK so I am sure other folks should be piping in eventually (good or bad).

Cheers
Rob
Rob,

That was an intelligent and well laid out response. I understand, and to an extent, support your respect for the Level Hub. I do hope that Level succeeds, and that the idea takes off. It's always cool for the "little guy" to come in and upset the status quo. And I actually subscribe to that ideal. What's ironic, is that I can't get past the very thing I preach against.. getting out on a limb and trying new things. Taking a risk is never really a bad thing. Yet here I am. Holding on to the status quo. Call me Mr. Duality.

I'm feeling the same way about the white industries ENO cranks i just ordered -- yeah they're beefy and very pretty, but am i going to be able to get my hands on chainrings in the future? White has been around for awhile though, so i guess i'm a little more confident. But i definitely understand the discomfort that surrounds dropping big bucks on propietary technology for the bike...

Absntr, your quote "in the meantime".

From the song Minimize with the full quote "In the meantime, back to minimize!" Who sang it, or am I far off the mark?

Nope, actually the Helmet song, "In the meantime." One of my favourite bands ever.

I think that's the song I'm thinking of.

Thanks. Some useful input here. As yet, no shops in the UK stock them. They're only currently available thru www.hubjub.co.uk (good site) so the likelihood of seeing one up close enough to make a decision is fairly limited. The price is quite forbidding as well. For the hub, cog and 120mm conversion kit it costs £170. I can get three full sets of Miche for that. I like the idea, but I think I'll wait.

Quick thoughts on this thread:
I brought up the issue of cog availability with Level, you can see their response I posted in this earlier thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=86278).

Phil Woods are top notch, but even those can strip. Dig through Matt Chester's posts on the 9th and 13th (http://www.mattchester.com/blog/) and you'll see he's buggered one side of his Phil. But, I'm sure it has tons of miles on it and he's planning on getting another one, so that's a sure stamp of approval.

Personally I hope Level makes it. It's a great idea.

Cogs are easy to machine, even without Level's explicit approval it wouldn't be difficult to start producing compatible cogs if level were to go under. In fact, if the hubs are as long-lasting as their design suggests they will be, then if Level were to go under, one could have a reasonable little business selling Level-compatible cogs that wouldn't be hard to machine. In fact, you could even do small runs with companies like emachineshop.com and cut out 50-100 cogs at a time.

But hopefully it doesn't come to that. If they stick around for a while and are flexible with other companies wanting to produce splined cogs, then they'll last.

I don't have 250 clams to spend on a new technology right now (or 250 to spend on old technology, for that matter), but if I were in the market for a top-shelf hub, I'd definately be looking at the Level...

Some people are diehard early adopters who buy anything new the second it hits the market. Some people are diehard traditionalists, who only trust things that have been around longer than they have. The rest of us (most of us) fall somewhere in the middle, and its a delicate balance to find the position that is the most reasonable, since either extreme has its severe downsides.

peace,
sam

A chelski fan that rides fixed... will you be making the trip to Upton Park this year?

Now that the Hammers have re-qualified it'd be rude not to! We get half our players from them as it is.

This "attack the buyer on the personal level" is BS. "live in the past" because people choose not to buy something that is AT THIS TIME NOT PROVEN OVER THE TEST OF TIME... C'mon. You're smarter than that, right?

I'm just shaking your tree, I didn't intend an attack, I apologize for that tone. I think the post about types of buyers is very insightful. I acknowledge that now it is a leap of faith. However, I bought mine becuase a fellow at The Bike Lane in Burke, Virginia has a set and convinced me that I would be pleased with it as he is with his. I looked at the thing, spun it around, studied it; man it just looks and feels indestructible, and I have destroyed stuff.


Tell me, what makes the Level hub BETTER than a Phil or Paul with a properly installed lock ring?
At this point, it's only different. And not proven yet.

Level hubs are a better choice for me because I like to change ratios frequently. I won't hesitate to do it because it takes a couple minutes and is super-easy, and can be done on the fly. And for me that was enough to sway me. I felt like the quality was equal to or better than Phil, I have a buddy (*New Guy*) who has ripped and stripped out his Pauls, so I made that choice.

The high flanges are really really high and offer great lateral stiffness. The ride is very smooth and the hub takes off some of the road vibration rather well. Not ping-y. Nice finish to it. Skidding response is firmer than with a standard hub (I had Suntour Superbe Pros for years and they were quite nice), more immediate.

BTW if you don't have a torx wrench or don't want to carry one, you can replace those bolts (that come with the Level) with a water-bottle cage bolt.

You're boring. Go eat some pie.

Lots of people are so locked into a gear choice that they choose it as their nick. I like to change ratios often, to suit my day-to-day strength level. Being a racer that can vary quite a bit depending on if I raced the day before, if I want to put a governor on my pace do to an impending race or whatever. If this sounds like something you'd like to be able to do, pull the trigger on the Levels. Quite a nice looking hub; smooth, resistant to torque and such. Pretty. Innovative.

Many here are not old enough to remember the pre-STI days. All the pros persisted for several years with using down-tube shift levers. Finally they started losing races to people with STI, BECAUSE OF it. That forced the switch.

The ability to easily change ratios; and the resistance to stripping makes it worth choosing over the other hubs out there. The quality is certainly on par. As far as Scott's ability to make Level a viable buisness in the years to come, all we can do is support him and intend for these hubs to catch on. I really think the anology between friction-downtube and click-shift-handlebar shifting is valid. It is a paradigm shift that just transforms things completely. I mean, why live in the past just because other people do so...of course I'd say that if you're happy with what you have, keep rolling with it, but if you're looking to buy...go for it.

fixed is still somewhat of a niche market, and i would guess that within a year it'll go back be being even smaller... it takes a lot of people to justify a serious change, and changing the norm for shifters would be a lot easier than for a niche bike like a fixie...



Will- get the Phil's. The Pauls haven't been around all that long and if you search there's been threads about the big nut cracking. I was looking at Paul's but like you said, why risk it? Phil's baby.

in my experience, pauls are rock solid... some went out with the shoddy axle, but that seems to be it... of the three threads you posted, there were just two experiences with a bad axle...
plus he's sold some designs to shimano, and if they can trust him i think that says a good deal in his favor...

i picked up a level rear hub in display at a shop. it was VERY HEAVY.

are we to the point yet of expressing our feelings about the level hub in the form of haiku?

Level hubs look nice
when they sit in the shop case
but on bikes they suck

New technology,
Proprietary cog set?
Level = Microsoft?

I love beefy hubs.
Weight weenies run in fear,
from the overbuilt.

I like my levels
And did I mention this fact?
My levels are black

i picked up a level rear hub in display at a shop. it was VERY HEAVY.

Here are some comparisons to give you a perspective.
This is for REAR Track Hubs with NO COGS mounted or lockrings.

IRO Hubs: 330grams - got this from Sheldon Browns site
LEVEL: 400grams (just weighed it)
Phil High Flange: Between 417grams and 432grams depending on spacing for the double fixed version - (Data also from Sheldon Brown's Site)

Since the Level cogs are beefy, they add an additional 75grams when mounted. But even thoug the Level Cogs are heavier, when you add a "normal cog AND lockring" you're looking at a similar increase.

So Erich, perhaps you should lift a Phil hub next time you're in the shop, but use your other hand so you can get an even workout.. :)

wahhh I want my wheels.

plus he's sold some designs to shimano, and if they can trust him i think that says a good deal in his favor...

Didn't shimano bring us the Positron shifter?

Why does buying a hub have to be thought of in this lifetime-length scale. OMG WHAT IF THE UNIVERSAL WORLD ORDER DOESNT REARRANGE ITSELF AROUND MY HUB?? How long do you people think youre going to keep this thing, how long do you think a cog takes to wear out? Just go buy 3 of each cog between 13 and 17 and youll never ever think about it again. Since you're planning on riding this thing for forever, the extra expense amortizes very easily. hub (250) plus cogs (150) / infinity = 0.

Well I am on my third Rear Wheel since riding my first fixie 4years ago.
#1 Dura Ace - SOLD with bike
#2 Miche - In my closet with Cog stuck on it :)
#3 Level

So I know for sure that hubs, or any other parts are not for LIFE. That being said...I will definitely be riding my Level for a longer amount of time, simply due to the investment, if not the fact that I am ALSO in love with it. :)

Why does buying a hub have to be thought of in this lifetime-length scale. OMG WHAT IF THE UNIVERSAL WORLD ORDER DOESNT REARRANGE ITSELF AROUND MY HUB?? How long do you people think youre going to keep this thing, how long do you think a cog takes to wear out?

It has less to do with the cog, and more to do with the potential quality of the product. If you had read the concerns, you might have noticed this.

The design of the cog was mentioned in 6 of the 25 posts on the first page.
"The potential quality of the product" is ambiguous, but it seems agreed that the level hub is materially overbuilt and they feel good out of the box. I am talking particularly about the longevity of a cog because I feel the longevity of a hub is so long that its almost unimportant in decision of which hub to buy. This is my rant. You are not buying a new way of life, its just one hub. Even if its twice as expensive, its going to last you longer than your memory of the money so its unimportant. If you want to talk about the feel of a newly built ride, great. If you want to talk about durability, great. If you want to be snarky, carry on.

it might just be one hub, but it's a significant financial outlay for most of us, and if i was considering investing that much cash in a chunk of hardware that i only knew a little about, i'd want to get as much input as i could.

The design of the cog was mentioned in 6 of the 25 posts on the first page.
"The potential quality of the product" is ambiguous, but it seems agreed that the level hub is materially overbuilt and they feel good out of the box. I am talking particularly about the longevity of a cog because I feel the longevity of a hub is so long that its almost unimportant in decision of which hub to buy. This is my rant. You are not buying a new way of life, its just one hub. Even if its twice as expensive, its going to last you longer than your memory of the money so its unimportant. If you want to talk about the feel of a newly built ride, great. If you want to talk about durability, great. If you want to be snarky, carry on.

Did you just call me snarky? Does you're mom know you're talking that way on the computer? Does the AOL filter allow that language?

Glad you're keeping count of the post... So far I've counted 10 things wrong with your post.

The potential quality of the product is indeed very important. It may LOOK over built. And who is to say it will last longer than my memory of the money. Ask CHUB HUB owners about that.

Snarky. That's a new one for me. I'll have to write that down.

No bullsh!t, I broke the rear axle of my Level hub this past weekend. Well, I'm not sure when it broke, but I discovered it this weekend... Was switching my gearing up by a tooth, and when I had the wheel out of the bike to switch the cog I noticed that the axle end seemed loose. Pulled the extra long axle fixing bolt out, and found that the axle had broken the entire way around. The only thing holding it together was the extra long bolt, and the fact that the axle was threaded the entire way through. I have no idea how long it has been busted, or how it happened. Just that it's now broken, I've never crashed that bike, and the hub has only been in service since February.

Waiting on word from Level on a new axle. I suspect it won't be a problem, but figured I'd report my findings. I've gained a lot of info from this board over the past two years of lurking, might as well contribute sometimes.

-brad