barenakedbiker
You've come up to a long line of cars stuck in traffic in both lanes. Do you squeeze between the cars to get to the front?
Cutting In Front
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randya
Absolutely! Either that or pass on the right. I'm certainly not waiting in line sucking exhaust fumes...
galen_52657
Depends. If it's not a long line and the cars just passed me, I will wait. Nothing pisses off a motorist like having to pass the same bike over and over. If it is rush hour and a huge line and not everyone will make it through the intersection, I will go around and up to the front, because the people who just passed me before the stop will not make it through, or if they do, I will be way down the road. I won't split lanes unless I am going strait and the right lane is right turn only.
emilymildew
Depends. If it's not a long line and the cars just passed me, I will wait. Nothing pisses off a motorist like having to pass the same bike over and over.
I know that that happens, but I really have no sympathy for a motorist who gets pissed at that. And for the ones who do, I reply that if it's okay for them to pass me when it is convenient for them, I will pass them when it's convenient for me. Period. Whether it's a passing area or not; if they can pass me on double yellow, I can do the same to them when they're stopped.
That said, if it's only a couple of cars between me and a light, I don't sneak up the line. If I'm going to be taking the lane, I usually don't unless traffic is awful.
I know that that happens, but I really have no sympathy for a motorist who gets pissed at that. And for the ones who do, I reply that if it's okay for them to pass me when it is convenient for them, I will pass them when it's convenient for me. Period. Whether it's a passing area or not; if they can pass me on double yellow, I can do the same to them when they're stopped.
That said, if it's only a couple of cars between me and a light, I don't sneak up the line. If I'm going to be taking the lane, I usually don't unless traffic is awful.
womble
What's with your sig? Does America really have a good bikeway system? I've never noticed it as a tourist- too busy watching all the clueless drivers! Now the system in the Netherlands... that's something to behold.
Helmet Head
You've come up to a long line of cars stuck in traffic in both lanes.
How long is long?
I answered "yes, always" assuming "long" meant so long that if I don't cut I will probably miss the next green cycle.
Serge
How long is long?
I answered "yes, always" assuming "long" meant so long that if I don't cut I will probably miss the next green cycle.
Serge
galen_52657
I know that that happens, but I really have no sympathy for a motorist who gets pissed at that. And for the ones who do, I reply that if it's okay for them to pass me when it is convenient for them, I will pass them when it's convenient for me. Period. Whether it's a passing area or not; if they can pass me on double yellow, I can do the same to them when they're stopped.
That said, if it's only a couple of cars between me and a light, I don't sneak up the line. If I'm going to be taking the lane, I usually don't unless traffic is awful.
It's not really a sympathy or conveinience thing with me. Its a risk/reward thing. The possible risk of pissing off a motorist who just passed me (maybe properly - and ruining good karma) is not worth the reward of gaining a few places in line. The gaining of a few spots is not going to influence my ride.
Now...if it is a blazing hot day and I am behind an dually diesel pickup belching black soot right in my face.. I am going around...
That said, if it's only a couple of cars between me and a light, I don't sneak up the line. If I'm going to be taking the lane, I usually don't unless traffic is awful.
It's not really a sympathy or conveinience thing with me. Its a risk/reward thing. The possible risk of pissing off a motorist who just passed me (maybe properly - and ruining good karma) is not worth the reward of gaining a few places in line. The gaining of a few spots is not going to influence my ride.
Now...if it is a blazing hot day and I am behind an dually diesel pickup belching black soot right in my face.. I am going around...
barenakedbiker
What's with your sig? Does America really have a good bikeway system? I've never noticed it as a tourist- too busy watching all the clueless drivers! Now the system in the Netherlands... that's something to behold.
Yes. America has the world's best bikeways system. Better than the Netherlands. The problem is the price of gasoline/petro is STILL too low. DOH!
Yes. America has the world's best bikeways system. Better than the Netherlands. The problem is the price of gasoline/petro is STILL too low. DOH!
markhr
only on the drive side and only if either the oncoming traffic is stationary or the road is clear
noisebeam
I will never cut to front if I will make the next light cycle by waiting in line. It is particulary dangerous if you start cutting up to front on right side of cars, then light turns green and you are stuck to their right and can't squeeze back in the now moving line. That situation will lead to a right hook before you know it.
If I know I will not make the next light cycle, I will only go as far forward as needed to ensure I am at a position where I will make the next green light. I look for a good opening and fit back in the line, sometimes good communication with a driver is needed to merge back in a stopped or slowly moving line.
Al
If I know I will not make the next light cycle, I will only go as far forward as needed to ensure I am at a position where I will make the next green light. I look for a good opening and fit back in the line, sometimes good communication with a driver is needed to merge back in a stopped or slowly moving line.
Al
genec
If it is a short line, I pretend I am a motorist and stay right there...
If it is long line, I am a special unique vehicle and move right on up...
I also filter forward if the intersection poses special problems and I want to ensure that I am seen by all other users on the road.
If it is long line, I am a special unique vehicle and move right on up...
I also filter forward if the intersection poses special problems and I want to ensure that I am seen by all other users on the road.
Helmet Head
Depends. If it's not a long line ...
...not worth the reward of gaining a few places in line.
Please address the situation in question here. In the opening post he expressly said, twice, that we're talking about a LONG line, presumably one that's not just "a few places". Even the person you just quoted said that if it's a matter of just a few places she wouldn't bother.
...not worth the reward of gaining a few places in line.
Please address the situation in question here. In the opening post he expressly said, twice, that we're talking about a LONG line, presumably one that's not just "a few places". Even the person you just quoted said that if it's a matter of just a few places she wouldn't bother.
noisebeam
Please address the situation in question here. In the opening post he expressly said, twice, that we're talking about a LONG line, presumably one that's not just "a few places". Even the person you just quoted said that if it's a matter of just a few places she wouldn't bother.
Some long lines of 15 cars or more will all make a long light cycle. Sometimes a 'short' line of 3 cars, the fourth may not make the green light. How long is only long is only relative to light cycle.
Al
Some long lines of 15 cars or more will all make a long light cycle. Sometimes a 'short' line of 3 cars, the fourth may not make the green light. How long is only long is only relative to light cycle.
Al
richardmasoner
What's with your sig? Does America really have a good bikeway system?
America's bikeway system includes the tens of thousands of miles of paved lanes that are typically 11 to 15 feet wide, well mapped, very well interconnected, and can get you from your front door to any other residential, commercial, or industrial destination.
RFM
America's bikeway system includes the tens of thousands of miles of paved lanes that are typically 11 to 15 feet wide, well mapped, very well interconnected, and can get you from your front door to any other residential, commercial, or industrial destination.
RFM
DCCommuter
I thought it was interesting what John S. Allen has to say. His book, "Bicycling Street Smarts" is the government-issued bicycle operator's manual in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, and Arizona. Government-issued! Read on.
GETTING THROUGH TRAFFIC JAMS
Traffic jams don't have to stop you -- that's one of the biggest advantages of bicycling in the city. But in the tight quarters of a tie-up, take extra care. Stopped cars in a traffic jam present the same hazards as parked cars: blindspots, doors and unpredictable starts and turns.
If there is an open passing lane, use it rather than thread between cars. If the street is completely plugged, pick your way forward slowly and with your hands on the brake levers. Remember, any car door could open!
If you're in a traffic jam, you can be fairly sure that the cars will not move, since they have nowhere to go. But if there's an open driveway or parking space into which a car could turn, you have to assume that it will. Look to see whether the car's front wheels are turned. Move away from the side of the car as you pass, and try to get the driver's attention as you approach the front of the car.
When cars are stopped, but not completely bumper to bumper, be very wary of cars from other lanes cutting across in the gaps. Stop and look before you move out into a gap. Be especially careful if the vehicle you're passing, like many vans, doesn't have a hood you can see over.
Don't pass a long truck or bus in a traffic jam unless there's a full, open lane next to it. If you ride close to the side of such a vehicle it may begin to merge toward you, leaving you no way to escape.
As you approach an intersection, change lanes to the same position as you would in normal traffic. Before you cross in front of a car to change lanes, make eye contact with the driver even if the car is stopped. When you reach an intersection, wait behind the first car at the traffic light. Don't move up next to that car; drivers don't always use their turn signals, so you don't know for sure which way the car will turn when the light turns green.
These traffic-jam tactics are reasonably safe, but in some cities it may not be legal for a bicyclist to pass on the right or ride between lanes of traffic. On the other hand, it's usually legal for you, or any driver, to cautiously disobey normal traffic rules when the road is "obstructed."
GETTING THROUGH TRAFFIC JAMS
Traffic jams don't have to stop you -- that's one of the biggest advantages of bicycling in the city. But in the tight quarters of a tie-up, take extra care. Stopped cars in a traffic jam present the same hazards as parked cars: blindspots, doors and unpredictable starts and turns.
If there is an open passing lane, use it rather than thread between cars. If the street is completely plugged, pick your way forward slowly and with your hands on the brake levers. Remember, any car door could open!
If you're in a traffic jam, you can be fairly sure that the cars will not move, since they have nowhere to go. But if there's an open driveway or parking space into which a car could turn, you have to assume that it will. Look to see whether the car's front wheels are turned. Move away from the side of the car as you pass, and try to get the driver's attention as you approach the front of the car.
When cars are stopped, but not completely bumper to bumper, be very wary of cars from other lanes cutting across in the gaps. Stop and look before you move out into a gap. Be especially careful if the vehicle you're passing, like many vans, doesn't have a hood you can see over.
Don't pass a long truck or bus in a traffic jam unless there's a full, open lane next to it. If you ride close to the side of such a vehicle it may begin to merge toward you, leaving you no way to escape.
As you approach an intersection, change lanes to the same position as you would in normal traffic. Before you cross in front of a car to change lanes, make eye contact with the driver even if the car is stopped. When you reach an intersection, wait behind the first car at the traffic light. Don't move up next to that car; drivers don't always use their turn signals, so you don't know for sure which way the car will turn when the light turns green.
These traffic-jam tactics are reasonably safe, but in some cities it may not be legal for a bicyclist to pass on the right or ride between lanes of traffic. On the other hand, it's usually legal for you, or any driver, to cautiously disobey normal traffic rules when the road is "obstructed."
JohnBrooking
I will never cut to front if I will make the next light cycle by waiting in line. It is particulary dangerous if you start cutting up to front on right side of cars, then light turns green and you are stuck to their right and can't squeeze back in the now moving line. That situation will lead to a right hook before you know it.
If I know I will not make the next light cycle, I will only go as far forward as needed to ensure I am at a position where I will make the next green light. I look for a good opening and fit back in the line, sometimes good communication with a driver is needed to merge back in a stopped or slowly moving line.
Al
I'm with Al 100%. I guess we're the only ones who answered "No". The key phrase was "to the front". We may cut a long line, but never intentionally to the very front. (Unless it just happens to work out that way, which I figured doesn't count for purposes of this question.) I've found that the best time to get back into line is as the traffic is slowing down again, once the light in front of us has turned back to red. Often I signal and turn my head as I do so.
For the record, I don't do it out of guilt, or love of fumes and/or engine noise. I do it because I feel it's the safest thing to do.
If I know I will not make the next light cycle, I will only go as far forward as needed to ensure I am at a position where I will make the next green light. I look for a good opening and fit back in the line, sometimes good communication with a driver is needed to merge back in a stopped or slowly moving line.
Al
I'm with Al 100%. I guess we're the only ones who answered "No". The key phrase was "to the front". We may cut a long line, but never intentionally to the very front. (Unless it just happens to work out that way, which I figured doesn't count for purposes of this question.) I've found that the best time to get back into line is as the traffic is slowing down again, once the light in front of us has turned back to red. Often I signal and turn my head as I do so.
For the record, I don't do it out of guilt, or love of fumes and/or engine noise. I do it because I feel it's the safest thing to do.
baj32161
This poll is stupid, made even moreso by the idiotic options. I never cut in front simply because its not safe...no more, no less.
Jeez its 1:34AM..I must be getting cranky :D
Jeez its 1:34AM..I must be getting cranky :D
lilHinault
Traffic is all about flow, if going up to the front helps the flow, then all but the most crazed drivers have no problem with it, because they can imagine themselves doing the same thing, or they look and think, "that makes sense".
noisebeam
What about motorcycles? Three times in the last month I've seen motorcycles use the BL to cut to the front. Illegal of course (using BL), but is it OK?
Al
Al
genec
If there is an open passing lane, use it rather than thread between cars. If the street is completely plugged, pick your way forward slowly and with your hands on the brake levers. Remember, any car door could open!
What the heck is an "open passing lane?" Here in southern California when it is bumper to bumper... it is that way across the entire road.
The only "open passing lanes" I ever see are Bike Lanes... and at "rush hour," this is where they fit in beautifully.
What the heck is an "open passing lane?" Here in southern California when it is bumper to bumper... it is that way across the entire road.
The only "open passing lanes" I ever see are Bike Lanes... and at "rush hour," this is where they fit in beautifully.
1000 oaks
I agree with John Allen in general. I often encounter this situation in my commute. However, as long as there is no danger of a right hook, I'll go alongside and ahead of car #1, somewhat into the crosswalk, making sure to establish eye contact with the driver. I don't take the lane in front of car #1 unless the lane we are entering on the other side of the intersection isn't wide enough for both of us.
Otherwise, what? Car #1 & #2 will be too close for me to get in and take the lane. I'll be sitting there alongside and somewhat ahead of car #2, but driver #2 may not see me - cars to the right may well be moving up slowly, one by one turning right on red. Driver #2 will tune out motion on his right. Does driver #2 need to see me? Probably not - but it makes me uncomfortable not being certain.
Driver #1, on the other hand, becomes immediately alert when I pull alongside & slightly ahead. Am I a pedestrian? A madman? Am I going to try to clean his windshield or sell him oranges? I turn and give him a friendly wave - and then everything's OK. I have a beautiful view of the intersection. When the light changes, and the intersection clears, I take off. Virtually 100% of the time, car#1 omits the usual jack rabbit start and overtakes me carefully, which earns him another friendly wave. Actually since the next tail back sometimes starts right on the other side of the intersection, he may never overtake me.
I do this a lot - It doesn't seem to irritate anyone - a friendly wave seems to do the trick.
Otherwise, what? Car #1 & #2 will be too close for me to get in and take the lane. I'll be sitting there alongside and somewhat ahead of car #2, but driver #2 may not see me - cars to the right may well be moving up slowly, one by one turning right on red. Driver #2 will tune out motion on his right. Does driver #2 need to see me? Probably not - but it makes me uncomfortable not being certain.
Driver #1, on the other hand, becomes immediately alert when I pull alongside & slightly ahead. Am I a pedestrian? A madman? Am I going to try to clean his windshield or sell him oranges? I turn and give him a friendly wave - and then everything's OK. I have a beautiful view of the intersection. When the light changes, and the intersection clears, I take off. Virtually 100% of the time, car#1 omits the usual jack rabbit start and overtakes me carefully, which earns him another friendly wave. Actually since the next tail back sometimes starts right on the other side of the intersection, he may never overtake me.
I do this a lot - It doesn't seem to irritate anyone - a friendly wave seems to do the trick.
John E
How long is long?
I answered "yes, always" assuming "long" meant so long that if I don't cut I will probably miss the next green cycle.
Serge
Interesting -- Serge and I both endorse this decidedly non-vehicular maneuver. :)
The majority position seems to be that cutting ahead is justified in what traffic engineers call a level-of-service "F" scenario, i.e., that one may have to sit through one or more entire traffic light cycles before getting through an intersection. I have no problem with this gambit, if it is executed cautiously; if the motorists around me were cycling instead of driving, we would not find ourselves in a LOS-F situation. The problem of toxic exhaust has already been addressed.
In some cities (Portland OR?), cyclists are actually encouraged to position themselves at the front of the line.
The problem with sitting too far back in a queue of cars is that one may end up obstructing traffic and preventing some motorists from getting through the light. In contrast, if I can clear an intersection quickly and get over to a shoulder or bike lane, I can actually create a win-win situation for myself and the motorists behind me.
I answered "yes, always" assuming "long" meant so long that if I don't cut I will probably miss the next green cycle.
Serge
Interesting -- Serge and I both endorse this decidedly non-vehicular maneuver. :)
The majority position seems to be that cutting ahead is justified in what traffic engineers call a level-of-service "F" scenario, i.e., that one may have to sit through one or more entire traffic light cycles before getting through an intersection. I have no problem with this gambit, if it is executed cautiously; if the motorists around me were cycling instead of driving, we would not find ourselves in a LOS-F situation. The problem of toxic exhaust has already been addressed.
In some cities (Portland OR?), cyclists are actually encouraged to position themselves at the front of the line.
The problem with sitting too far back in a queue of cars is that one may end up obstructing traffic and preventing some motorists from getting through the light. In contrast, if I can clear an intersection quickly and get over to a shoulder or bike lane, I can actually create a win-win situation for myself and the motorists behind me.
genec
Interesting -- Serge and I both endorse this decidedly non-vehicular maneuver. :)
The majority position seems to be that cutting ahead is justified in what traffic engineers call a level-of-service "F" scenario, i.e., that one may have to sit through one or more entire traffic light cycles before getting through an intersection. I have no problem with this gambit, if it is executed cautiously; if the motorists around me were cycling instead of driving, we would not find ourselves in a LOS-F situation. The problem of toxic exhaust has already been addressed.
In some cities (Portland OR?), cyclists are actually encouraged to position themselves at the front of the line.
The problem with sitting too far back in a queue of cars is that one may end up obstructing traffic and preventing some motorists from getting through the light. In contrast, if I can clear an intersection quickly and get over to a shoulder or bike lane, I can actually create a win-win situation for myself and the motorists behind me.
Oh my gosh... you mean actually using the unique capabilities of a narrow vehicle to position yourself thru narrow areas and thus speed quickly into unique narrow travel lanes designed just for the unique charateristics of your vehicle? What an amazing concept. ;)
The majority position seems to be that cutting ahead is justified in what traffic engineers call a level-of-service "F" scenario, i.e., that one may have to sit through one or more entire traffic light cycles before getting through an intersection. I have no problem with this gambit, if it is executed cautiously; if the motorists around me were cycling instead of driving, we would not find ourselves in a LOS-F situation. The problem of toxic exhaust has already been addressed.
In some cities (Portland OR?), cyclists are actually encouraged to position themselves at the front of the line.
The problem with sitting too far back in a queue of cars is that one may end up obstructing traffic and preventing some motorists from getting through the light. In contrast, if I can clear an intersection quickly and get over to a shoulder or bike lane, I can actually create a win-win situation for myself and the motorists behind me.
Oh my gosh... you mean actually using the unique capabilities of a narrow vehicle to position yourself thru narrow areas and thus speed quickly into unique narrow travel lanes designed just for the unique charateristics of your vehicle? What an amazing concept. ;)
JRA
I agree with John Allen in general...I generally agree with John Allen, too. He's one of the few VC advocates with some common sense.
In this case, what Allen is advocating is taking advantage of the special characteristics of a bicycle. Good for him.
As I've always said, the bicycle is a superior vehicle.
It's too bad that many VC theorists (commonly known as 'nutcases') seem to think that a bicycle should be restricted to the limited capabilities of an automobile.
I always filter forward if I can - that's one of the advantages of riding a bicycle. If I wanted to be stuck in traffic, I'd drive a car.
In this case, what Allen is advocating is taking advantage of the special characteristics of a bicycle. Good for him.
As I've always said, the bicycle is a superior vehicle.
It's too bad that many VC theorists (commonly known as 'nutcases') seem to think that a bicycle should be restricted to the limited capabilities of an automobile.
I always filter forward if I can - that's one of the advantages of riding a bicycle. If I wanted to be stuck in traffic, I'd drive a car.
1000 oaks
... unique narrow travel lanes designed just for the unique charateristics of your vehicle? ... ;)
What are you referring to? Isn't this thread discussing how to best share lanes with cars during congested conditions? There are no specially designed lanes involved.
What are you referring to? Isn't this thread discussing how to best share lanes with cars during congested conditions? There are no specially designed lanes involved.
noisebeam
I don't see this as a vehicular vs. not 'debate'
I see this as a personal and situational judgement to balance convienience with safety. One may find that using one of the several options (to go to front of line either using left of right side space by traffic, to stay back in line, or to only go partially forward) provides a higher level of safety or conviencence without significantly lowering the other below a threshold of which the individual can tollerate.
The most important aspect of this is that the cyclist is making an informed choice for the specific intersection at a specific time and understands the risks and benefits of all options. If one does not understands the benefits of being vehicular or the dangers or filtering on right or doesn't know the light timings or know how much time they are really saving (if any) then they are not making an informed choice.
Al
I see this as a personal and situational judgement to balance convienience with safety. One may find that using one of the several options (to go to front of line either using left of right side space by traffic, to stay back in line, or to only go partially forward) provides a higher level of safety or conviencence without significantly lowering the other below a threshold of which the individual can tollerate.
The most important aspect of this is that the cyclist is making an informed choice for the specific intersection at a specific time and understands the risks and benefits of all options. If one does not understands the benefits of being vehicular or the dangers or filtering on right or doesn't know the light timings or know how much time they are really saving (if any) then they are not making an informed choice.
Al
genec
What are you referring to? Isn't this thread discussing how to best share lanes with cars during congested conditions? There are no specially designed lanes involved.
No, the thread was asking if you "cut in front?" Said nothing specifically about sharing lanes. Did I miss that?
RE: "specially designed lanes... " Well some Bike Lanes do a beautiful job of letting me zip past all the bumper to bumper traffic... and for me to not take advanatage of that would just be silly now, wouldn't it?
No, the thread was asking if you "cut in front?" Said nothing specifically about sharing lanes. Did I miss that?
RE: "specially designed lanes... " Well some Bike Lanes do a beautiful job of letting me zip past all the bumper to bumper traffic... and for me to not take advanatage of that would just be silly now, wouldn't it?
1000 oaks
No, the thread was asking if you "cut in front?" Said nothing specifically about sharing lanes. Did I miss that?
RE: "specially designed lanes... " Well some Bike Lanes do a beautiful job of letting me zip past all the bumper to bumper traffic... and for me to not take advanatage of that would just be silly now, wouldn't it?
I guess when you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
RE: "specially designed lanes... " Well some Bike Lanes do a beautiful job of letting me zip past all the bumper to bumper traffic... and for me to not take advanatage of that would just be silly now, wouldn't it?
I guess when you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
genec
I guess when you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Don't think hammer is the right term... I have an entire tool chest, and use the appropriate tool (method) when needed.
I filter forward when the opportunity easily presents itself, and don't filter foreward when the opportunity has limited reward, such as putting me in front of motorists that only just passed me and will pass me again... especially in lane sharing situations.
Bumper to bumper traffic... most likely I may be able to thread forward, but if there is a Bike lane, it is quite easy to do so, and if that BL continues, it is easy for motorists to later pass me (if they ever move).
Use the right "tool" at the right moment to achieve the right result. No pounding required. Don't want to get "screwed" waiting in traffic either.
Don't think hammer is the right term... I have an entire tool chest, and use the appropriate tool (method) when needed.
I filter forward when the opportunity easily presents itself, and don't filter foreward when the opportunity has limited reward, such as putting me in front of motorists that only just passed me and will pass me again... especially in lane sharing situations.
Bumper to bumper traffic... most likely I may be able to thread forward, but if there is a Bike lane, it is quite easy to do so, and if that BL continues, it is easy for motorists to later pass me (if they ever move).
Use the right "tool" at the right moment to achieve the right result. No pounding required. Don't want to get "screwed" waiting in traffic either.
Bruce Rosar
Interesting -- Serge and I both endorse this decidedly non-vehicular maneuver.Since a bicycle is a self-propelled conveyance that runs on tires (http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/v/v0045200.html), it's a vehicle in the real world (i.e., outside of court rooms). A maneuver accomplished while operating a vehicle (pedal powered or not) is, by definition, a vehicular maneuver.
"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by the right names." - Chinese Proverb
"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by the right names." - Chinese Proverb
-=Łem in Pa=-
I always go to the front.
Just one of the fringe benefits of being a responsible and
socially conscious individual.
If I am not getting in anyones way, impeding anyones forward progress
or creating a situation that might hold someone up I excersice my self-given
right to bicycular freedom.
Just one of the fringe benefits of being a responsible and
socially conscious individual.
If I am not getting in anyones way, impeding anyones forward progress
or creating a situation that might hold someone up I excersice my self-given
right to bicycular freedom.
cc_rider
I will move up on the right, but seldom between lines of cars. I always want to have path of escape.
added 7-31 Riding around DC today I filterd to the front several times. The one time I didn't I did not make it through the light although seveal of the cars behind me did. Couldn't acclerate from a dead stop quick enough.
added 7-31 Riding around DC today I filterd to the front several times. The one time I didn't I did not make it through the light although seveal of the cars behind me did. Couldn't acclerate from a dead stop quick enough.
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