Advocacy & Safety - Scared for my life!

Last night after work i go out for my nightly ride---it was still light. About 30 min into my ride (7:30), i come up on a a stretch of trail that goes through a bad part of town (for anyone that lives in madison, its the part of the SW commuter trail after you go across the beltline and behind CUB foods). As i go across a cross street, there are a bunch of ghetto apartment buildings on either side of the trail with berms right next to the trail.

There were about 20 or so "young urban youths" "hanging out" along side the trail. As i pass them at a pretty good clip, one kid drop kicks me and i fall off my bike, crashing on the ground. As i look behind me--the rest of the group starts to bum rush me---carrying sticks and bats. Luckily i was able to get back on and get the hell out of dodge before they caught up to me. All i could think of (having grown up in Milwaukee) is the story of the 15 kids that beat a man to death with a shovel just for "fun."

I called the cops a few blocks later (after i was out of the bad area). Apparrently, these "kids" had done the same thing to 2 other peopel and had thrown a stick between the spokes of some roadie's bike.

I am compeltely scarred to death to go out on the trail any more. I have to use this section (the trail is one big loop around the city).

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Ride it with a group of really tough farm boys.

Joe

Ride it with a group of really tough farm boys.

Joe

WTF is that suppossed to mean

Summer is when the weirdos come out to loiter. During the day they're on the roads. At night it's in the neighborhoods. I would stay away from that trail at night until after Labor Day. But that's just me.

find a different route. that's the only safe bet. can't you just take a few extra blocks to go around?

also a hidden video cam would be cool... you could tape it and put it on the news~!

I'm sick of feeling that the law is not going to help me. If you've already reported it to them and there's nothing they can do, go vigilante.

I suggest a semi-automatic machine gun, a few grenades, and something big and scary and pointy.

Or if you're not the violent renegade that I so blithely encourage you to be, what about at least some pepper spray?

[QUOTE=MERTON]find a different route. that's the only safe bet. can't you just take a few extra blocks to go around?QUOTE]

No can do---the trail crosses the freeway right after this section, and there is no other cross point for at least 3-4 miles in either direction


Its like a bottle neck of death---the trail crosses the freeway on one of those overpass thingies and then its through about 2 miles of this corrdior through the bad part of town.--

I'm sick of feeling that the law is not going to help me. If you've already reported it to them and there's nothing they can do, go vigilante.

I suggest a semi-automatic machine gun, a few grenades, and something big and scary and pointy.

Or if you're not the violent renegade that I so blithely encourage you to be, what about at least some pepper spray?


i was thinking of gettin gone of those big as$ chain locks all the kiddies ahve and swinnging it like a bolo as i ride through

If you can't revise just this section of your route then rethink the whole ride. Instead of looping the city on this bike trail go out into the country on roads.

It is truely sad when something like that can be reported 3 times and nothing be done.
Don't you have a local news station you can call about this? Around here we have "The Problem Solvers" on our local television news stations that we can call and ***** about anything to. and since the local news is really full of nothing at all they are more than eager to go video tape some stuff and harass the officials.

Now, let me tell you what I'd do in this situation. Recently I had my right to cary a weapon revoked so no more handguns for me. :( Which is really a bummer.
I now have a thermos, and it is a great defensive weapon. I attached one of those water bottle strap-type cages to my bike that can accododate a 50 gallod drum so it seems. I fill that thermos with boiling hot water mixed with amonia and put the cap on real tight. I have had to threaten use with it once while I was riding in downtown Mount Clemens. I was in a really really bad part of town taking a shortcut to get to the river. I came to a stop sign, stopped, and 3 guys started crossing the street. One looked at me and said "nice bike fat boy, I bet it'd look better on me". I quickly grabbed the thermos, opened the lid, and the smell almost knocked me down as the steam bellowed out and said "maybe so but if I put this **** on you you'll wish to god you had stayed on the porch." The dudes eyes god bigger than my 26" wheels and the other fella said "let's go mam we aint got time for this yadda yadda yadda" and they left with no further incident.

I picked up on the idea when I spent some time as a guest of the state of New York for something stupid I did as a kid. And so far it has helped me out as a nice defensive weapon. And I doubt I could ever get in trouble for crying it, after all officer, it's for cleaning my chain when I get thru hitting the trails ;)

you could carry a knife. start calling the cops and complaining every day though. that way they'll think your just scared off yer ass instead of a murderer.

Wow, I never knew there was a "bad part" of Madison.

Last night after work i go out for my nightly ride---it was still light. About 30 min into my ride (7:30), i come up on a a stretch of trail that goes through a bad part of town (for anyone that lives in madison, its the part of the SW commuter trail after you go across the beltline and behind CUB foods). As i go across a cross street, there are a bunch of ghetto apartment buildings on either side of the trail with berms right next to the trail.

There were about 20 or so "young urban youths" "hanging out" along side the trail. As i pass them at a pretty good clip, one kid drop kicks me and i fall off my bike, crashing on the ground. As i look behind me--the rest of the group starts to bum rush me---carrying sticks and bats. Luckily i was able to get back on and get the hell out of dodge before they caught up to me. All i could think of (having grown up in Milwaukee) is the story of the 15 kids that beat a man to death with a shovel just for "fun."

I called the cops a few blocks later (after i was out of the bad area). Apparrently, these "kids" had done the same thing to 2 other peopel and had thrown a stick between the spokes of some roadie's bike.

I am compeltely scarred to death to go out on the trail any more. I have to use this section (the trail is one big loop around the city).

Any ideas would be appreciated.

<sarcastic mode on>

No no this can never happen... perhaps you failed to ride like the Alpha dog, or you didn't use the right assertive technique... were you riding on the trails in full VC manner... I have been told that your attitude means everything. Perhaps you were not centered properly right in the trail. Were you wearing a sissy jersey?

<sarcastic mode off>

It is quite amazing what summer hights and group thinking can manifest... throw in drugs or alcohol and suddenly things really heat up.

Man, that is a tough situation. I am so sorry that happened. That would have freaked me out. That is too bad you have no other alternate route you could possibly take. If the law cannot help you and you have no way to avoid that route, I am not sure what I would do. Tempting as vigilante justice or swinging a chain might be, I wouldn't do it. Good way to end up dead or in a hospital. I would avoid that part at all costs if there are no arrests.

Can you do part of your commute on a bus - put the bike on the bike rack if buses up there have them?

i was thinking of gettin gone of those big as$ chain locks all the kiddies ahve and swinnging it like a bolo as i ride through

For some reason this made made LOL.

I hate to say it, but there's not much you can do when parents haved failed and the Law won't do its job. My better half had a similar though less scary incident just yesterday on the Hudson River Greenway: a local teenager decided it would be a good idea to throw a rather large sitck at her while she was riding. She was afraid it would hit her, but the chump missed. I told her she was lucky it didn't get in her spokes! (she hadn't even thought of that frightening possibility). She does a lot to help under-privileged kids so it was a real slap in the face for her. WTF is wrong with people, I'll never know.

My advice? Do what you can to avoid the area for a few days then go back to normal.

My rule of thumb is to never ride within "striking distance" of a large pack of kids who are not playing or occupied with something.

Some people will say that you should be a coward and avoid that area permanently, but that is a lame solution. Just be careful and work on your street smarts.

One thing to do is to be cool with kids who you happen to go past, say hi, wave or whatever. If you are a regular you probably won't get messed with.

okay, back to the horror stories....

It is truely sad when something like that can be reported 3 times and nothing be done.
Don't you have a local news station you can call about this? Around here we have "The Problem Solvers" on our local television news stations that we can call and ***** about anything to. and since the local news is really full of nothing at all they are more than eager to go video tape some stuff and harass the officials.

Now, let me tell you what I'd do in this situation. Recently I had my right to cary a weapon revoked so no more handguns for me. :( Which is really a bummer.
I now have a thermos, and it is a great defensive weapon. I attached one of those water bottle strap-type cages to my bike that can accododate a 50 gallod drum so it seems. I fill that thermos with boiling hot water mixed with amonia and put the cap on real tight. I have had to threaten use with it once while I was riding in downtown Mount Clemens. I was in a really really bad part of town taking a shortcut to get to the river. I came to a stop sign, stopped, and 3 guys started crossing the street. One looked at me and said "nice bike fat boy, I bet it'd look better on me". I quickly grabbed the thermos, opened the lid, and the smell almost knocked me down as the steam bellowed out and said "maybe so but if I put this **** on you you'll wish to god you had stayed on the porch." The dudes eyes god bigger than my 26" wheels and the other fella said "let's go mam we aint got time for this yadda yadda yadda" and they left with no further incident.

I picked up on the idea when I spent some time as a guest of the state of New York for something stupid I did as a kid. And so far it has helped me out as a nice defensive weapon. And I doubt I could ever get in trouble for crying it, after all officer, it's for cleaning my chain when I get thru hitting the trails ;)

Clever, but it sounds like a nice way to get shot!

My rule of thumb is to never ride within "striking distance" of a large pack of kids who are not playing or occupied with something.....

The problem is they hang out ON the trail and there are big berms on either side, so you are always within striking distance

Wow, I never knew there was a "bad part" of Madison.


yes, its not quite the enlightened leftist utopia its made out to be

dont get e wrong, i like living here, its beautiful, but its got its porblems the city just ignores.

Lately there has been a lot of gang problems as the gangs are moving up from chicago

They have nothing better to do, if you escalate they will too. It's what they do for a hobby. If you have no results with the police you may have to avoid the area. Many commuters like a longer commute anyway. If there is 20 of them and one of you there's no good way to protect yourself as you ride through. Maybe visit the police station in person and ask for advice?

Some people will say that you should be a coward and avoid that area permanently, but that is a lame solution.

I wouldn't call this cowardly, I'd call it prudent. What is cowardly about avoiding a violent weapon-carrying mob?

thats my dilema--if i change my route and avoid it, i;ll be missing out on a great section fo the trail that comes later---that and i'll essentially be letting these hooligans dictate where i can go and get away with it; On the other hand, if i go back, something more serious might happen next time.

i don;t understand why the world is so crazy,---i mean, i never even made eye contact with them----i was just going along minding my own business

whats wrong with people? And where were their parents????? not an adult in sight----just a roaming gang of kids with nothing to do except get their kicks by harrassing people.

The problem is they hang out ON the trail and there are big berms on either side, so you are always within striking distance


Okay. Remember what the scene looked like when you got attacked? If you see it again, turn around and find an alternative on that day.

I've seen large groups of kids attack people before, its some kind of nasty group behavior driven by peer pressure and aggression ("wilding?"), they won't do it in small groups.

Some bozo's will recommend a weapon. That will fail-- even if it works the first time (unlikely), it makes you a prime target for next time.

I wouldn't call this cowardly, I'd call it prudent. What is cowardly about avoiding a violent weapon-carrying mob?

That's clearly not what I said.

That's clearly not what I said.

You said:



Some people will say that you should be a coward and avoid that area permanently, but that is a lame solution.

Can you explain what you meant?

That's clearly not what I said.

You did say "Some people will say that you should be a coward and avoid that area permanently, but that is a lame solution."

What did you mean to say? Dude, it is just a bike ride. Nothing to get hurt over if there is another option.

Do you have a cell phone or other device which takes pictures but doesn't look like a camera? Take pictures of them standing on the path - particularly if you can get them with sticks or shovels etc. Then take the photos to police - it is possible some kid in this group is a known troublemaker/juvenile delinquent which may help to get their attention. If that doesn't work - then try city officials and news people who could alert the community and cause a stir. My neighborhood used this (photos to officials/media) method to get the police to finally pay attention to juvenile delinquent behavior that was causing a lot of grief in a park a couple of years ago.

You said:



Can you explain what you meant?

Sure....



My rule of thumb is to never ride within "striking distance" of a large pack of kids who are not playing or occupied with something.

Some people will say that you should be a coward and avoid that area permanently, but that is a lame solution. Just be careful and work on your street smarts.



In other words, its the large pack of idle kids that are a potential threat, not the neighborhood, not the trail. If one were to avoid all places where something "bad" happened, there would be very few places left to go outside one's own living room.

Also, by not using a wonderful resource such as a trail, it will only get worse. That's my explanation.


As for things to do... I did notice that skanking said he did not make eye contact. That is bad thing to do around kids. By effectively ignoring them like that, the cyclist becomes an anonymous wierd guy who is a prime target for their insecurities.

A group of 20 kids, armed with bats and sticks, that kicks you off your bike and chases you. Eye contact and a wave is the solution suggested?

For some reason, I think McGruff the Crime Dog would suggest something else. If those kids live in the neighborhood, I dare suggest that the neighborhood is dangerous. Getting kicked off your bike and chased by twenty (20) kids with sticks and bats is a pretty big deal.

Since they have already battered and assaulted you, I don't think going back and waving and making eye contact is the best thing to do. If you insist on going back and see them, I would turn around. Or I'd find an alternate route. Or I'd take a bus for part of the commute and put my bike on the rack.

Or, risk being attacked. Gangs have "turf" you know. They might be there again. Especially if they are kids, they probably live nearby and are not commuting to that area to hang out and cause trouble.

Honestly, I think H23 is giving you less-than-great advice. That is my 2 cents. Especially if you have anyone at home that loves and counts on you staying alive and out of the hospital.

I also think farrellcollie had a good suggestion on carrying a camera/camera phone if you return to that area. Hope it has zoom.

Sure....

In other words, its the large pack of idle kids that are a potential threat, not the neighborhood, not the trail. If one were to avoid all places where something "bad" happened, there would be very few places left to go outside one's own living room.

Also, by not using a wonderful resource such as a trail, it will only get worse. That's my explanation.


As for things to do... I did notice that skanking said he did not make eye contact. That is bad thing to do around kids. By effectively ignoring them like that, the cyclist becomes an anonymous wierd guy who is a prime target for their insecurities.


Great, but I don't think simply continuing to use the trail is going to dissuade kids from being a threat. If he wants to confront the problem, he needs to do one of three things: match their firepower, match their numbers, or bring in the authorities.

And I still maintain that he's not a coward if he simply chooses to ride elsewhere.

Sure....




In other words, its the large pack of idle kids that are a potential threat, not the neighborhood, not the trail. If one were to avoid all places where something "bad" happened, there would be very few places left to go outside one's own living room.

Also, by not using a wonderful resource such as a trail, it will only get worse. That's my explanation.


As for things to do... I did notice that skanking said he did not make eye contact. That is bad thing to do around kids. By effectively ignoring them like that, the cyclist becomes an anonymous wierd guy who is a prime target for their insecurities.

1. it is a "bad area" of town.
2. I always thought makign eye contact was bad because it was like issuing a challange to them

WTF is that suppossed to mean
Next time you ride there have a bunch of friends with you. The bigger the better. They won't mess with you after that.

Joe

besides, they didt seem liek the type who would be "persuaded" by enagging in pleasantries.

Bottom line,l they were out to cause trouble----i happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time----they did it to 2 other cyclists. they would have done it to me no matter what i did.

I was just reviewing the city's bike maps and there seems to be an a route that goes around this area, although the alternate route isnt exaclty in the best area of town either. i may just start from the other direction, do 3/4 of the loop and then turn back.....seems like the safest thing.

A group of 20 kids, armed with bats and sticks, that kicks you off your bike and chases you. Eye contact and a wave is the solution suggested?
....

Not exactly, but I guess its not possible to suggest anything more complicated than "stay out" or "shoot them" on here. I give up. You guys just want to vent and not think about any real solution.

1. it is a "bad area" of town.
2. I always thought makign eye contact was bad because it was like issuing a challange to them


#1 is irrelevant
#2 is suburban baloney-- that advice is only good for schizophrenics who follow you down the street.

You live in a relatively small town. No "regular" citizen can chat with the police chief in New York or Chicago. But, you should head down to see the police chief with a group of ten or fifteen regular cyclists who are old enough to vote and pay taxes. Tell the chief that y'all want that trail to be safe for any rider, at any time.

My guess is, if a BUNCH of people show up at his office, the chief will begin having bike patrol officers ride that part of the trail on a regular basis. Some in uniform. Some not. Soon the kids will not know which riders are officers, and which are not.

Carry a cell phone. When I see kids who seem to be up to something, I get the phone out, and pretend to call 911. It is amazing how fast teenagers can run, even with the adverse effects of the McDonalds diet.

Not exactly, but I guess its not possible to suggest anything more complicated than "stay out" or "shoot them" on here. I give up. You guys just want to vent and not think about any real solution.


The bottom line is they would have done the same thing had i smiled , waved, or got off and kissed their punk as$es.

I appreciate the advice, but i fail to see how being "nice" to irrational mobs intent on assaulting me is goignt o help rectify the situation

I carry pepper spray, and will have it in hand if I feel there might be a need. Of course your only going to be able to handle a couple of them that way, which may or may not be enough. I'd approach the police with a proposal to be bait if they will watch to make arrests.

you could carry a knife. start calling the cops and complaining every day though. that way they'll think your just scared off yer ass instead of a murderer.

Carrying a knife is completely foolish if you aren't trained and mentally prepared to use it. Chances are pretty good that you'll get it taken away from you and get cut up with your own knife.

SB, you were assaulted and the authorities need to investigate it. If you can identify the perp that kicked you off the bike they should at least act against that one.

It is completely unacceptable to tolerate this.

These guys have already proven themselves to be dangerous. I think avoiding real danger is smart. Definately pursue it with the authorities ... but meanwhile I'd avoid a repeat situation. I bet they aren't there at 6 a.m. I also think you'd be much better off in a pack of 10 bikes if you can hook up a group ride or just a group time to meet and go through that section. Get the word out among other locals BEFORE someone is seriously injured. Publicity also may motivate law enforcement/politicians.

water balloons full of petrol and a zippo lighter sure does wonders for chasing off wolves from the chicken coupe
would probably have the same effect on this pack as well

2000 solutions will be presented in this thread, and most likely only 2 of them will be viable
this problem is not yours to fix, call the authorities and if they don't do anyhting, call them again and again, it's not like you can fight off a group of kids, even though most of us dream that we can, actually some of us probably could, but that is beside the point here.
the problem is not yours to fix, we pay damned good money to people who's job it IS

Wow, I never knew there was a "bad part" of Madison.Exactly.....I thought there were no such things as 'bad' liberals..... :p

thats my dilema--if i change my route and avoid it, i;ll be missing out on a great section fo the trail that comes later---that and i'll essentially be letting these hooligans dictate where i can go and get away with it; On the other hand, if i go back, something more serious might happen next time.

i don;t understand why the world is so crazy,---i mean, i never even made eye contact with them----i was just going along minding my own business

whats wrong with people? And where were their parents????? not an adult in sight----just a roaming gang of kids with nothing to do except get their kicks by harrassing people.

First: I wouldn't go back.
Second: Demand that the police do something about it.
Third: Their parents don't care! That's why they are hanging out looking for trouble. Nothing else to do but go beat up on someone.

Well, for my part, I am now going to use that stretch of trail as often as possible. I hope I meet these kids. Perhaps I have a death wish, but personally, I can not tolerate the idea of being forced out of a neighborhood by young hooligans.

What is lame about it is letting these people dictate where you do and don't go. Sensible and lame perhaps, but still lame. I'll be heading over there this evening.

B sure to kick one of them for me

The bottom line is they would have done the same thing had i smiled , waved, or got off and kissed their punk as$es.

I appreciate the advice, but i fail to see how being "nice" to irrational mobs intent on assaulting me is goignt o help rectify the situation


For christ's sake, I did not say "be nice to mobs". In fact, I said I avoid them. I avoid large groups of kids who look like they might be trouble. A large group of kids who aren't playing and aren't doing anything and who don't have an adult around spells trouble in any neighborhood.

The kids that attacked you are composed of a small number of really malignant bad apples and large number of normal kids who go along with whatever the group does. They are all individuals. They are not always together. If more adults (including cyclists on the trail) were to interact with these kids (when they aren't in an active "mob"), the kids would be less likely to do violent things to people for no reason.

Of course, I agree with the others that you have to contact the police. It certainly won't correct what happened to you, but it will help to allocate police resources to deal with the problem.

B sure to kick one of them for me

I intend to if they give me any trouble. (if I can get in a shot before I get swarmed, weee) I don't know what my problem is, but I'd rather be beaten to a pulp than do nothing about it.

"If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward." - Jack Handey
:D

The kids that attacked you are composed of a small number of really malignant bad apples......
.....without fathers.