Professional Cycling For the Fans - Stage 9: Gérardmer - Mulhouse

I guess you're not following along here. 9 riders or 2 doesn't matter for drafting if they are not drafting! They weren't doing so well at that at the end of the stage. Duh.

The tradition of the MJ does include many things, not just the examples you gave.

can someone lock this? Riis is a very adept DS. It would have been utterly stupid to support Zabriskie in any of the ways indicated in the far too many places this has been brought up. He was the 10th man on the team, and he got to go because of his success in the TT this year, and to get to some experience at the big show. At best from the TTT on he would have been a domestique but he can't climb worth a damn and to waste even mental energy on what to do about him would have been a disservice to Basso who has legitimate podium, even victory hopes. Simply put had Riis done so he should have been yanked from the car on the spot and replaced with someone who actually had a clue. Zabriskie got plenty of attaboys and waytogos in the bus and at meals. his team and sponsors were proud of him, believe me...he wore yellow. let him savor the experience, and learn something and hopefully in a year or two he can parlay that experience into a legitimate shot.

I guess you're not following along here. 9 riders or 2 doesn't matter for drafting if they are not drafting! They weren't doing so well at that at the end of the stage. Duh.

Weren't doing so well? They had one of the best times of the final section. Of course they were drafting.

Alright... who else here thinks that CSC wasn't drafting during the TTT? :rolleyes:

Some of Jens accomplishments:

Victories TOUR MEDITERRANEEN (2.1) - 555 km 2005

No. 3 The Mountains Competition in Vuelta al Pais Vasco (PT) - 745 km 2005
A brief description of the course for this race:
The route will cover 28 mountain passes in its five stages and 764.5 kilometres.
The mountains include two Cat. 1's, 11 Cat. 2's and 15 Cat. 3's.
But as is in the case in Euskadi, a stretch of flat road is not often seen..

No. 4 Paris-Nice (PT) - 950 km 2005( One must be able to climb to do well in Paris-Nice.)

No. 5 Criterium International (2.HC) - 295 km 2005(Generally recognized as an early season test for the stage race riders. Includes significant climbing.)

Victories CRITERIUM INTERNATIONAL (2.1) - 300 km 2004

Victories THE MOUNTAINS COMPETITION IN VUELTA AL PAIS VASCO (2.HC) - 765 km 2004

Just curious, Grasschopper, how does a rider who is "no climber"(your words) win the Mountains Competition in the Vuelta Pais?

Huh go figure...the great climber Jens Voigt was just dropped from the peloton at the base of the second climb of the first day in the Alps. :rolleyes:

"6 km Ullrich is 1'17" behind. Vino even further... Jens Voigt is really suffering, over 12 minutes back now."

Huh maybe I should have given you more time in less stages. Voigt is going to be over 8 min back form LA at the end of the stage it look like.

Huh go figure...the great climber Jens Voigt was just dropped from the peloton at the base of the second climb of the first day in the Alps. :rolleyes:

You're an idiot. Go back to routing for LANCE. No one said Jens was a "great climber".

YOU said he was "no climber", which was incorrect, and of course you are to much of a coward to acknowledge that.

Jens proved to everyone just how little you know about the pro peloton by hanging in through some tough Cat 1 climbing.

You must have some very small equipment to cheer against Jens Voight. He is easily the most popular rider in the pro ranks.

Love a good personel attack...easy to do over the internet I suppose. I have nothing agains Jens and I certainly don't root against him...I don't root AGAINST anyone. I will bet against someone though...there is a difference. I will stick by my statement that Jens is no climber and IMO he showed it yesterday, hell he said it himself. He is a good short tour rider, single day rider and popular, I have no issue with that...he is also no GC contender in a Grand Tour and hell his team even said before the stage yesterday that they weren't going to bother to defend his jersey.

If you are really this guy...maybe some more attention needs to be paid to the team rather than some fat dude (yes I called myself fat) on the internet. Although if you really are him I guess I am honored you are even bothering to respond to my posts.


12:59 ARE T-MOBILE TOAST? Yes, according to the team's manager Walter Godefroot. "I generally take stock of the overall race after the first big mountain stage," Godefroot said in French sports daily L'Equipe. "It's usually that stage that sets the tenor for the rest of the race. [Tuesday's] general classification spelled it out. The verdict is clear: We're no good."

Edit: Good ride by Vino today.
Edit again: Lets call it a great ride by Vino today.
Edit some more: Jens Voigt is out of the 05 TdF by missing the time limit during stage 11. Sorry but I will repeat, Jens Voigt is no climber...nice guy...not a climber.

I call myself fat

Hmmm, and you come across as such a small human being. Who'da thunk.

Hmmm, and you come across as such a small human being. Who'da thunk.

I'm assuming you're name calling because you don't know how to have a legitimate debate with someone. In fact, you've had some absurd posts/questions which most people have been kind enough to try to explain but now you're just showing you don't know much or care to learn.

You're an idiot.


Hmmm, and you come across as such a small human being. Who'da thunk.

FYI... those who stoop to personal attacks to defend their position are the smaller human beings.

I'm assuming you're name calling because you don't know how to have a legitimate debate with someone. In fact, you've had some absurd posts/questions which most people have been kind enough to try to explain but now you're just showing you don't know much or care to learn.Ok, let's see if you're really capable of having a legitimate debate, or ir you like grasschopper are only interested in defending a mistaken position.

Grasschopper called Voight
"no climber".

I very politely asked him how he could call someone who had won climbing competitions in stage races "no climber".

Instead of acknowledging that he may have been mistaken about jens, he came back with,
"Tell you what dude. Clearly you are right and clearly you have a bur up your arse when it comes to my posts."

Then he added this sarcasm, as though it somehow was a reflection of what I said, when I never said Jens was a "great climber", only tried to give him the credit he was due.

grasschopper's words:

What no faith in a rider of Jens' caliber? Hell LA has to take >3:18 out of a guy with a team defending the Yellow Jersey. Clearly CSC is a strong team and Jens is a great climber so the shouldn't be any way LA can take >3:18 by the next rest day.

So what started out as an attempt to clarify a good riders capabilities was turned by grasschopper into a sarcastic denigration of that rider and my posts by someone who wasn't big enough(not physically it turns out ;) ) to acknowledge new information he may not have been aware of. And in spite of the information that was given to him about Jens climbing accomplishments, he wants to still defend an ignorant position that Jens is "no climber". And you want to indict me for calling him an idiot and a small human being? Sorry for grasschopper, but that's what he is(not physically, it turns out ;) ).

PS to Jungle Cat: My questions to others here have been much like my question to grasschopper, more to get people to think than to get info. I've been following racing for decades.

Now let's see if you can handle a legitimate debate. grasschopper was incapable of this without resorting to sarcasm, misrepresentation, and denigration of a good, respected rider. Why? Because he was to small to admit he was wrong.

Sarcasm is a long accepted part of debate. In this case, it illustrated the irony of the Voight's current results versus your premise.

I'm not even saying you're wrong about Voight (your catalogue of his wins was an excellent point) but the "idiot" comment and "small human" comment are irrelevant to the debate.

Sarcasm is a long accepted part of debate. In this case, it illustrated the irony of the Voight's current results versus your premise.

I'm not even saying you're wrong about Voight (your catalogue of his wins was an excellent point) but the "idiot" comment and "small human" comment are irrelevant to the debate.

Glad to see someone is willing to give credit to Jens where it is due. I'll give you that.


But I am curious, if sarcasm is a long accepted part of debate, and the poster below was using sarcasm to make a point, why did you impune that he was immature? Grasschopper is "small" which is childlike or immature, because he isn't man enough to admit he's wrong, much like you called this poster.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=1356569#post1356569:

Originally Posted by Laggard It was slower than Valverdes average.


What are you like 12 or something? That was sooo lame lol!

Hmmm, the pot calling the kettle black.

And kerank, why weren't you critical of JungleCat when he insulted another poster. Tsk, Tsk...please, be consistent.

Wow I thought this kind of Drama only existed on my usual distraction board.

Funny stuff.

Weren't doing so well? They had one of the best times of the final section. Of course they were drafting.

Alright... who else here thinks that CSC wasn't drafting during the TTT? :rolleyes:

Dolomiti, it seems that you either don't read other's posts very well, or you're just being ridiculous. I never said CSC wasn't drafting. In regards to their drafting I said, quote: "They weren't doing so well at that at the end of the stage", meaning the finish end after DZ's crash.

I'm sure you're not stupid and did understand my meaning. If you go back and watch them coming to the line on the TTT, you'll see what I'm talking about.

So therefore, I would have seen no harm in them leaving 1 rider behind to escort the Maillot Jaune home - and it shouldn't have mattered whether it was one of the established, big name stars like LA or JU or Boonen or a relative "nobody", or whether the guy in the MJ was a great TT'er or not. It's the symbolism and prestige of the MJ that counts and that's what should have been respected.

Even LA out of respect did not wear the Yellow Jersey the next day at the race start, because he didn't feel he won it fair & square from the previous wearer's misfortune.

Glad to see someone is willing to give credit to Jens where it is due. I'll give you that.


But I am curious, if sarcasm is a long accepted part of debate, and the poster below was using sarcasm to make a point, why did you impune that he was immature? Grasschopper is "small" which is childlike or immature, because he isn't man enough to admit he's wrong, much like you called this poster.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=1356569#post1356569:

Originally Posted by Laggard It was slower than Valverdes average.



Hmmm, the pot calling the kettle black.

And kerank, why weren't you critical of JungleCat when he insulted another poster. Tsk, Tsk...please, be consistent.

Hmmm... You are right Walt.

http://forums.viachicago.org/style_emoticons/default/frusty.gif

why? what would it accomplish? other than blowing the the team's worse in the last 1.5k.

I'm with you... that's really, REALLY, REALLY stupid... makes not sense... he was not there to win the race... he's a domestique, CSC must have appreciated his contribution up to that point and the publicity for their sponsor but that's it... do you think Discovery would have waited for him if he was on Discovery and risk Armstrong loosing time? no way in hell!! Domestiques are there to work for there leaders.. if they can spare some effort to get the sponsor some air time by getting a jersey that's cool... make no mistake teams are not even doing it for the rider, it for the sponsor.. this is a sport but it's also a business.