Living Car Free - Living Car Free?

While looking around the forums I stumbled upon this Living Car Free Forum. I was very inspired when I saw it and it just really made me think. I am only a college student and my need for a car at the moment is very limited, and my parents are always willing to pick me up whenever I do need to come home. After peeking around these threads it has led me to ask so many questions, if given the chance this would be a lifestyle I would love to follow.

Have those of you who have found yourself going car free found yourself living a happier life? Or one that is more stressful because of limited transportation.

I find that some people have jobs that are some distance away, anywhere from maybe a few miles to maybe 100 miles. I know my father works in Boston, and from where we live is a good 100 miles away. How do you, who work quite some distance from home, cope with biking to work everyday? In correlation to that question, I know going to work clean is always a must, but after biking "X" miles you are of course going to be sweaty and dirty. How do you overcome that? Some businesses do have showers, but none that I have seen. How do you overcome this?

I could ask so much more about groceries/insurance/money etc., but I'll spare all of you with my nagging questions. I guess I am just amazed at this new lifestyle. :D

I know with gas prices soaring, with no sight of them going down. This could turn out to become much more popular. Reasons having that paying for gas every week now that I am working again is becoming a hassle.

for work -- have a good public transportation backup ready (if available in your area). know what busses or trains run what routes, and use them if the weather gets nasty

to keep clean: depending on your route you don't get THAT sweaty if commuting at normal pace. i have 10 mile mostly uphill ride TO work, but at 7-8 am it's only 60-70 degrees in summer. i may be a little sweaty - but as stated in other posts exercise sweat is different the nervous sweat. it dries up and i'm fine for the day

option 2: find a gym close to work. use it on the way in, do some exercises for your upper bod (arms/back/shoulders), and use their showers. you'll be clean and really fresh, and get buff :)

also -- if you have a busy week, i.e. christmas shopping, errands to run - nothing wrong with renting a car for the week. my local enterprise, (non airport), is only 30 bucks a day. even if i rented a car 4 times a month for my large transportation needs or long distances, still cheaper than owning.

here's a post i made on another thread about a guy who request tips after going car-free
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as said already storage is key -- i use rack trunk, handlebar box, and grocery panniers -- all interchangable, i can grab what i need before leaving, click it on and go. and i use a shoulder strap for my boxes, so i can take them in stores like a bulky messenger bag

also for big things just use a cab once a week or two weeks, but go to stores when not busy - like 8pm on weekday night. that way you can run into home depot or wherever, grab your bulky item and pay, and won't cost much to have cab wait

even better - SHOP ONLINE! i have a car and still prefer using overstock.com, ebay, or yahoo shopping has links to tons of online stores, (just use credit card for protection, not debit card). i'm happy to wait a few days for something to arrive to my door. the hours saved are well worth it.

and, use the phone before going on errands. if i'm looking for a pair of headphones, or a light fixture for my house, i'm on the store's site browsing, then i call the store to see if they have it. them i ask them to put it up front with your name. my time inside the store consists of "hi i'm james, i appreciate the help, here's my money"

even WITH a car i do this, as i hate wasting my saturday or weeknight at best buy or circuit city driving from one enormous parking lot to the next, when all information i need can be done from my desk at home or work.

(of course some people like browsing and and excitement of retail, i'm the opposite)

anyone else like me? i think these are good ideas to help with days where you have to do multiple errands.

I don't feel too much stress. On bad weather days, there's a slight amount of stress, but I never feel like there's no solution. If it's simply terrible, there's public transportation, but it would have to be pretty bad.

Koffee

At 27, I never owned a car... So I can't say I'm happier. I know that I often find it stressful when I'm a passenger in a car, stucked in traffic and all. I find myself looking around and saying "I could be riding next to this car, not stucked in here" Being stressed by limited transportation isn't something I'm experiencing. Being car free, I make choices as to where I want to live, so that public transit is available, areas are bike-able..

As far as arriving to work sweaty and dirty, I disagree.
I take a shower at home before leaving, so I DO arrive to work sweaty, but not dirty. You can bring a change of clothes (including underwear), dry yourself up and change into new clothes. If you're concerned about odors, you can use those (http://www.keysan.com/pictures/yufs0228.jpg).

here's a post i made on another thread about a guy who request tips after going car-free
------------------------------------------------------------
as said already storage is key -- i use rack trunk, handlebar box, and grocery panniers -- all interchangable, i can grab what i need before leaving, click it on and go. and i use a shoulder strap for my boxes, so i can take them in stores like a bulky messenger bag

also for big things just use a cab once a week or two weeks, but go to stores when not busy - like 8pm on weekday night. that way you can run into home depot or wherever, grab your bulky item and pay, and won't cost much to have cab wait

even better - SHOP ONLINE! i have a car and still prefer using overstock.com, ebay, or yahoo shopping has links to tons of online stores, (just use credit card for protection, not debit card). i'm happy to wait a few days for something to arrive to my door. the hours saved are well worth it.

and, use the phone before going on errands. if i'm looking for a pair of headphones, or a light fixture for my house, i'm on the store's site browsing, then i call the store to see if they have it. them i ask them to put it up front with your name. my time inside the store consists of "hi i'm james, i appreciate the help, here's my money"

even WITH a car i do this, as i hate wasting my saturday or weeknight at best buy or circuit city driving from one enormous parking lot to the next, when all information i need can be done from my desk at home or work.

(of course some people like browsing and and excitement of retail, i'm the opposite)

anyone else like me? i think these are good ideas to help with days where you have to do multiple errands.

I like the way you think, Kevin. When you finish college, you will be faced with decisions about where to live and work. This will be a fantastic opportunity to make choices that support a carfree lifestyle. Good luck and keep posting!

I guess i could say I live happier. But only because I save a lot of money on gas, parking, insurance, etc. I am also lucky since my girlfriend has a car since she needs one for her work. So it is a good help at times. Plus I had mentioned in another post about living in Chicago and the ease of using public transit with bikes.

For tips on commuting see: http://chibikefed.org/trickstips

I find many people use their car to go short distances (less than 10 miles). So using a bike is a better alternative for thsoe trips. If you have to commute 100 miles and no train is accessable than I guess you have no choice but to drive. I think the main point is driving less still saves you money and helps the environment.

Plus I find in Chicago traffic I can often get places faster on a bike than in a car. . . :D

I sort of stumbled into my car free lifestyle. I was between cars and decided to use my bike while I researched which car to buy next. The longer I went without a car, the more I realized I didn't need it.
But you have to make lifestyle choices to support going car free. Choose to live within bike access to your job or public transportation. I live about twenty-five miles from my work, but there is an express bus to the office less than two miles from my home (and the bus has bike racks!). This is a short bike commute so I don't worry too much about odors and cleanup, and I usually keep office attire in the office. My wife works within walking distance of our home. Markets, etc are less than three miles away and I have a sizeable bike trailer for bringing home the goods.
Without question, I am much happier than I was when I owned an automobile. I continue to make minor adjustments in my routine, etc, but the idea of owning another car never occurs to me any more. In many ways, I feel more liberated than I did during car ownership.

I sort of stumbled into my car free lifestyle. I was between cars and decided to use my bike while I researched which car to buy next. The longer I went without a car, the more I realized I didn't need it.


I had a similar experience with TV. . . ;)

I had a similar experience with TV. . . ;)

hahaha! Good for you!

It costs an average of $8,410 after taxes to own and operate a car in the U.S. in 2005.

(AAA driving costs page, 15K annual miles) (http://www.ouraaa.com/news/library/drivingcost/driving.html)

Figure payroll and income taxes at 35%, so you need to earn an extra $13K annually to pay for the car. This is small potatoes for a professional earner in his or her prime earning years, but it's big bucks for many young and underemployed folks.

Most of the cost of a car is fixed expenses. So it's a small win to bike everywhere if you still have a car in the driveway.

It's a big win if you can get rid of the car.

The supreme win is if you want to bike anyway for exercise, health, adventure or personal enjoyment.

I had a similar experience with TV. . . ;)

Isn't it great? Been TV free since September 2004 and car free for 6 weeks, life can't posbly get any better! (but I am very willing to let it try ;) )

I'm pleased to report that I'm only using my car only once or twice per week. Not car free but I'm not running around all over town like I used to. Last Thursday (payday) I put $3 in gas in the tank which should last easily to next week. Tomorrow my wife and I are riding our bikes to the grocery store and to fill out some job applications (she's between jobs).
I've learned that I don't need a car near as much as I thought I did. Cars are convenient at times but they're really an addiction and a bad habit, a little like cigaretts!
Driving is not much fun anymore, anyway. Too many crazy drivers and just plain too many cars on the road. Have you all noticed that in some places it's rush hour all the time?

Have those of you who have found yourself going car free found yourself living a happier life? Or one that is more stressful because of limited transportation.

For me, even when riding in traffic that is crazy, I'm always more stressed if I'm behind the wheel in the same situation.


I find that some people have jobs that are some distance away, anywhere from maybe a few miles to maybe 100 miles. I know my father works in Boston, and from where we live is a good 100 miles away. How do you, who work quite some distance from home, cope with biking to work everyday? In correlation to that question, I know going to work clean is always a must, but after biking "X" miles you are of course going to be sweaty and dirty. How do you overcome that? Some businesses do have showers, but none that I have seen. How do you overcome this?

Well obviously commuting 100 miles one way is not feasible on a bike. If someone is in that position, and there is no mass transit option, they will have to make a choice. Either change homes, change jobs, or don't go car free. By giving up the car they can afford to make a considerably smaller income and still live just as well, if they're willing to consider that option.

Several have already made pretty good suggestions as far as the sweat issue goes. Ride at a casual pace, bring a change of clothes, bring a weeks worth once a week, take a sponge (or washcloth) bath when you get there and arrive 10 or 15 minutes earlier so that you've got time to cool down before putting on the work attire.


I could ask so much more about groceries/insurance/money etc., but I'll spare all of you with my nagging questions. I guess I am just amazed at this new lifestyle. :D

I know with gas prices soaring, with no sight of them going down. This could turn out to become much more popular. Reasons having that paying for gas every week now that I am working again is becoming a hassle.

Get a trailer for your groceries, or get panniers and shop more frequently. Insurance? I've got very good homeowners insurance, so the bike is well covered no matter where I'm at. As far as liability goes, that's an issue I've been meaning to take up with my agent for some clarification.

I've seen more bike commuters in the last couple of weeks than I had in the previous 4 years. In fact I'd never seen anyone but me in this town. Can't help but think gas prices have to be at least a little bit of the reason.

Last time I was hardcore car-free was in the 80s. I noticed that I had money in the bank at the end of the year, folks at work seemed to like me better, and I got into HELLA good shape. It's a win all around.

If you get a trailer, check out the burley nomad, I just got one and it goes on its maiden swapmeet trip tomorrow.

Isn't it great? Been TV free since September 2004 and car free for 6 weeks, life can't possibly get any better! (but I am very willing to let it try ;) )

Guess there's quite a few of us who are TV free around here. Since 1999. Sometimes when I go to visit a friend and they've got one on, I think "yep, that's about what I remember." "Still doesn't feel like I'm missing anything."

Count me in with the non-TV crowd. TV would cut into my Internet time...!

add me to the TV free list, I have computers and broadband,what do I need a TV for LOL?

Yeah I'm TV-free. I blame it on no room but somehow I always have room for my oscilloscope and other test stuff. I can watch DVDs and .movs on the net with my computer and do once in a while (the local library is a good source of movies, and sooner or later they'll go all-DVD since you don't have to rewind those, can tell right away if they're damaged, and if damaged, can often be "repaired" and made workable by spitting on them and wiping on handy shirt sleeve).

I disconnect cable tv 4 years ago... Yet they never cut my signal to the tv, even after 3 calls. I gave up! So I have a big tv in our living room (also computer room) that I disconnected the cable from just in case I had temptations. Once in a while I turn it on in the kitchen on this really small tv to watch discovery channel. There's some interesting science shows on there.

While looking around the forums I stumbled upon this Living Car Free Forum. I was very inspired when I saw it and it just really made me think. I am only a college student and my need for a car at the moment is very limited, and my parents are always willing to pick me up whenever I do need to come home. After peeking around these threads it has led me to ask so many questions, if given the chance this would be a lifestyle I would love to follow.

Have those of you who have found yourself going car free found yourself living a happier life? Or one that is more stressful because of limited transportation.

I find that some people have jobs that are some distance away, anywhere from maybe a few miles to maybe 100 miles. I know my father works in Boston, and from where we live is a good 100 miles away. How do you, who work quite some distance from home, cope with biking to work everyday? In correlation to that question, I know going to work clean is always a must, but after biking "X" miles you are of course going to be sweaty and dirty. How do you overcome that? Some businesses do have showers, but none that I have seen. How do you overcome this?

I could ask so much more about groceries/insurance/money etc., but I'll spare all of you with my nagging questions. I guess I am just amazed at this new lifestyle. :D

I know with gas prices soaring, with no sight of them going down. This could turn out to become much more popular. Reasons having that paying for gas every week now that I am working again is becoming a hassle.


Well, Im a rare case I guess you could say.Most of my adult life all I did was drive for a living, then the courier compnay I was a contractor with stuck me downtown in my car.I did that for a few months and talked them into letting me use a bike, they were hesitant at first, until I started setting delivery records and doubled their business in 18months.At that point it became necessary to hire some more people, they screwed that up, then they tried to get another company's business by hiring 4 of their bikers from them all at once, that didnt work out either.At that point my car had been sitting inactive for 8 months, so I got rid of it.I also went independent and started my own messenger service.So I basically went cold turkey with driving and left myself no options, make it work or starve, well, Im still eating !!!

I have a huge messenger bag so errands are quite easy, so is riding all over, im in pretty good biking shape to say the least, I easily cruise along with 40lbs on my back at 22-25 mph(no im not kidding).As far as big items, my rental agents office is less than a block away, I have things shipped there when needed.I dont have to deal with sweat issues,I wear whatever I want, and live downtown in my delivery area, which I call "my office", all 16 square miles of it.Overall Im happier, I do miss being able to jump in a car and drive 75-100 miles out into the middle of nowhere and go backpacking, now I have to go with someone else.I dont have kids or family nearby so I dont have to deal with that.As far as savings, ya Im saving roughly 900-1000/month vs when I was driving but my actual take home pay is about the same, so Im not helping the petrol or car industries at all.When it comes right down to it, those industries are like drug dealers, shame most people dont understand that.

This kind of life isnt for everybody, especially the riding for a living aspect of it, its tough tough relentless work, but its easier than many probably believe, its the initial shock that is hard to fathom for most,once youve been doing it for awhile it gets much easier.My thinking about lots of things has changed because of it, the whole rec riding aspect is prettymuch gone, I still ride for fun sometimes,but its still different, my bike has become nothing more than a tool, and gets treated like one.I think the one aspect I will never get used to is how many people know and recognize me, they may not know my name, but they say hello anyway cause they see me constantly and what I do is so incredibly rare these days, a city of 1.1 million people and there's only about 25 people in it that do what I do, some are in awe, some are baffled, some I think it pisses them off, its all good.

I find that some people have jobs that are some distance away, anywhere from maybe a few miles to maybe 100 miles. I know my father works in Boston, and from where we live is a good 100 miles away. How do you, who work quite some distance from home, cope with biking to work everyday?
I could ask so much more about groceries/insurance/money etc., but I'll spare all of you with my nagging questions. I guess I am just amazed at this new lifestyle. :D

I know with gas prices soaring, with no sight of them going down. This could turn out to become much more popular. Reasons having that paying for gas every week now that I am working again is becoming a hassle.

Your father made what I consider the classic mistake millions of families make in this country and that's to move hours from their place of work. Where I work, people get upset that they live 5 miles from the office and consider that a long commute! It's all about choices.

You will grow old real fast and spend a considerable amount of your life on a highway commuting to and from work. That could be your future as I'm sure it is your fathers. I bet your father never factored in the hours he spends traveling to the overall cost of living. The best job is one that you can walk 5 blocks to and from your home.

Once in a while I turn it on in the kitchen on this really small tv to watch discovery channel. There's some interesting science shows on there.

I agree about there being *some* good stuff on TV. I like a lot of Discovery and History Channel stuff. I have my girlfriend Tivo it and we watch it when at her house. Plus I watch a lot of movies, I love documentaries. So that is what I use my 56" TV for. . . :rolleyes:

I stopped watching TV almost two years ago. It was after watching 15 minutes of FoxNews (yeah, that'll do it) that I just tuned out for good. After in those few minutes they covered:

- a stolen tanker truck that could be made into a "roilling bomb"
- missing enriched plutonium that coud be made into a dirty bomb
- about 15 FBI "warnings"

Not that CNN or MSNBC are any better. . . :D

I also don't need to watch TV to see "reality".

I agree about there being *some* good stuff on TV. I like a lot of Discovery and History Channel stuff. I have my girlfriend Tivo it and we watch it when at her house. Plus I watch a lot of movies, I love documentaries. So that is what I use my 56" TV for. . . :rolleyes:

I stopped watching TV almost two years ago. It was after watching 15 minutes of FoxNews (yeah, that'll do it) that I just tuned out for good. After in those few minutes they covered:

- a stolen tanker truck that could be made into a "roilling bomb"
- missing enriched plutonium that coud be made into a dirty bomb
- about 15 FBI "warnings"

Not that CNN or MSNBC are any better. . . :D

I also don't need to watch TV to see "reality".


Hah! A really good and interesting movie to watch about fox is outfoxed (http://www.outfoxed.org/). A channel such as outfoxed should not even be allowed to exist.

Hah! A really good and interesting movie to watch about fox is outfoxed (http://www.outfoxed.org/). A channel such as outfoxed should not even be allowed to exist.

That is indeed a good movie to watch on Fox News. But all large media outlets have an agenda sadly. So Fox News is just the most blatant of them all. Plus they are so far to the right they went off the side. ;)

Well, Im a rare case I guess you could say.Most of my adult life all I did was drive for a living, then the courier compnay I was a contractor with stuck me downtown in my car.I did that for a few months and talked them into letting me use a bike, they were hesitant at first, until I started setting delivery records and doubled their business in 18months.At that point it became necessary to hire some more people, they screwed that up, then they tried to get another company's business by hiring 4 of their bikers from them all at once, that didnt work out either.At that point my car had been sitting inactive for 8 months, so I got rid of it.I also went independent and started my own messenger service.So I basically went cold turkey with driving and left myself no options, make it work or starve, well, Im still eating !!!

I have a huge messenger bag so errands are quite easy, so is riding all over, im in pretty good biking shape to say the least, I easily cruise along with 40lbs on my back at 22-25 mph(no im not kidding).As far as big items, my rental agents office is less than a block away, I have things shipped there when needed.I dont have to deal with sweat issues,I wear whatever I want, and live downtown in my delivery area, which I call "my office", all 16 square miles of it.Overall Im happier, I do miss being able to jump in a car and drive 75-100 miles out into the middle of nowhere and go backpacking, now I have to go with someone else.I dont have kids or family nearby so I dont have to deal with that.As far as savings, ya Im saving roughly 900-1000/month vs when I was driving but my actual take home pay is about the same, so Im not helping the petrol or car industries at all.When it comes right down to it, those industries are like drug dealers, shame most people dont understand that.

This kind of life isnt for everybody, especially the riding for a living aspect of it, its tough tough relentless work, but its easier than many probably believe, its the initial shock that is hard to fathom for most,once youve been doing it for awhile it gets much easier.My thinking about lots of things has changed because of it, the whole rec riding aspect is prettymuch gone, I still ride for fun sometimes,but its still different, my bike has become nothing more than a tool, and gets treated like one.I think the one aspect I will never get used to is how many people know and recognize me, they may not know my name, but they say hello anyway cause they see me constantly and what I do is so incredibly rare these days, a city of 1.1 million people and there's only about 25 people in it that do what I do, some are in awe, some are baffled, some I think it pisses them off, its all good.

Dude, I love reading your posts. You're hardcore :D you're living a life lots of us stuck in cubicle farms secretly wish for. Only 25 out of 1.1 million have the balls to make it happen, you should be proud.

Yeah pedex is living the real thing.

add me to the TV free list, I have computers and broadband,what do I need a TV for LOL?

So I basically went cold turkey with driving and left myself no options, make it work or starve, well, Im still eating !!!

Overall Im happier, I do miss being able to jump in a car and drive 75-100 miles out into the middle of nowhere and go backpacking, now I have to go with someone else.I dont have kids or family nearby so I dont have to deal with that.

…I think the one aspect I will never get used to is how many people know and recognize me, they may not know my name, but they say hello anyway...


Dude, I love reading your posts. You're hardcore :D you're living a life lots of us stuck in cubicle farms secretly wish for. Only 25 out of 1.1 million have the balls to make it happen, you should be proud.


Yeah pedex is living the real thing.


Making it happen? Living the real thing? Is this the goal of the bicyclists advocating carfree lifestyle?

Is being socially isolated, without family, dependent on begging for rides, and being recognized as "unique" by a bunch of strangers (who don't care what your name is) what living car free is all about?

Sounds great for those into that lifestyle but bicycling and bicycling advocacy is irrelevant to such a "real thing" lifestyle. Street Mimes, Jugglers, Musicians and other pandhandlers without bicycles (BUT WITH Broadband) should be able to "make it happen" also.

1) I'm not socially isolated because I ride my bike. I still get around. I'm not dead!

2) I'm not without family. I see my family every day. Heck, I live with my family. And when I wasn't, I could always ride over and see them. I could also take my family out for a bike ride too, which is a great, healthy activity for everyone.

Anyone can ride a bike for all their transportation needs, and if you need to go someplace farther, there's always the public transportation. Living car free was something I accidentally fell into, but I don't regret it, not for a moment. I don't feel handicapped because of it. If anything, I feel relieved that I don't have to stress myself out with driving if I don't have to.

Koffee

I don't feel socially isolated either. In fact, some of my closest friends are people I cycle with. I dare say most of us on this forum have a family. I know I do. I love riding with my grown stepson and my roommate, who is like a son to me. I sure can't remember the last time I begged for a ride. I think I was 14, and I was probably at the mall. Anyway, I really feel like I'm "making it happen" and I know I'm "living the real thing."

And you know when I feel the best? It's when I'm juggling some bowling pins and playing my accordion as I ride my bicycle to my second job as a street mime! Boy I feel alive then. :D :D

I just got back from a pleasant evening at a live jazz club with the lady of my choice and one of her friends. To get here, I rode my folding bike to the Greyhound station, packed it into its travel bag, and carried it on board. My lady friend and I will have a couple of nice bike rides while I'm here, she on her C'dale and me on my KHS folder. Monday we'll visit another friend, who also, coincidentally, does not own a car.

Oops, I just got an email from a former co-worker who is still working in the cube farm. Seems they have an engineering issue with a major new product design and they think I can help. I'll drop by next week or the week after and see what I can do. On my bike, of course. I'll probably be dripping with sweat and wearing stinky gloves, and I daresay they'll be darned glad to see me.

Just because my children are grown doesn't mean I'm without family, not by any means. One thing I've been able to do with my free time is do things that have helped bring my extended family back together. Somehow I've not needed to own a car to do that.

I do juggle. Mostly a three ball cascade. I've been trying since February to learn the four ball fountain. No success so far, but maybe soon!

Oh, one more thing. Speaking for myself, I do not advocate a carfree lifestyle for Americans in general. The conditions and personal characteristics that favor it are quite exceptional.

I-Like---

I can now go downtown here during lunchtime or dinner time when parking is IMPOSSIBLE for a car.

I get nothing but congrats, which amazes me but there it is, and people who are acquaintences are getting a bit closer it seems.

I'm still a ****** little butterball, but that is due to change, and fast.

I can still go places by car, just plan ahead and rent one of the friggin' things, no problem.

I have a bunch more income each month, that feels GOOD. I'm closer to buying land in Napa now :-)

Platy, I advocate a carfree or car-lite lifestyle for all Americans, as much as possible. The health, wealth, and ecological benefits are so profound, and getting complimented for being carfree even by SUV drivers, it just the final confirmation.

Oh, one more thing. Speaking for myself, I do not advocate a carfree lifestyle for Americans in general. The conditions and personal characteristics that favor it are quite exceptional.
THAT has been my point all along. Bicycling may help those who wish to live car free meet that goal. Car free lifestyle is neither a higher moral objective for bicyclists, nor does such a lifestyle choice promote carfree bicyclists to a higher moral level.

Statements such as "Anyone can ride a bike for all their transportation needs, and if you need to go someplace farther, there's always the public transportation" ignore the exceptional conditions (such as availability/practicality/timeliness of public transportatation) and personal characteristics/lifestyle choices (responsibilities to support, INCLUDING transport, family dependents who are not obedient infants, nor bicycle enthusiasts, nor capable/willing to bicycle anywhere/everywhere) that facilitate such a lifestyle. Supporting a dependent family requires more than an occasional visit. The transportation needs of such bicyclists can not be simplified to a "Just Do It" car-free solution.

ILTB-- this is the "Car Free Living" forum. Oh, I give up. Have a nice day dude. Enjoy the forum, if you can.

I would say that "living car free" is dependent on where you live. I have lived in many cities and Chicago is the best in terms of making car free living feasable. I am from Atlanta originally and their public tranist is not condusive to being car free. Nor is the way the city is laid out really. I guess if you live downtown there then you can commute to work if you also work downtown. But overall it is not great.

Another place I lived was Houston (would NOT recommend it to anyone). They do not even have trains. Just lots of buses which take forever to get you anywhere. The city is also spread out so much it would not make sense to ride everywhere you need to go. Plus people there are very car (more like SUV) centric. They could care less about cyclists on the road.

So being that I live in a "bike friendly city" helps the most. The US is too focused on cars in most cities to make it so people can be car free. Europeans and Asian countries are much better as a whole in terms of making biking a good alternative.

I think you need to chill out ILTB.

Let's assume we're all idiot cyclists that think we have higher morale than the rest of the world. Well if that annoys you so, then simply don't come here to read those posts. You'll find your spirit will be lifted.

You obviously DON'T want to be car free... This is the car free forum, for car free ppl, or car free wanabe's. I really don't think you fit in any of those categories.

Perhaps it should be changed to "I-Like-To-Bike (sometimes)" :p

Maybe "I-Like-To-Bike-But-I-Love-My-Car"???

(j/k) ;)

Shouldn't there be a sub-forum for those who support the car culture? Or is that in "foo"?

Car free lifestyle is neither a higher moral objective for bicyclists, nor does such a lifestyle choice promote carfree bicyclists to a higher moral level.


I disagree.

Perhaps it should be changed to "I-Like-To-Bike (sometimes)" :p

Maybe "I-Like-To-Bike-But-I-Love-My-Car"???

(j/k) ;)More like "I-Like-to-Troll." But the dude did get me to thinking about something uplifting. Actually, it was lala's response to him that got me thinking that it really is morally good to be carfree. I always thought of it as environmentally good, or even politically good, but maybe it really is morally good. As an old philosophy major, I love to think and talk about this stuff. What do the rest of you think? Are we better people (morally) because we don't own cars?

ILTB--you don't have to answer this time as we know where you stand! (hint hint).

More like "I-Like-to-Troll." But the dude did get me to thinking about something uplifting. Actually, it was lala's response to him that got me thinking that it really is morally good to be carfree. I always thought of it as environmentally good, or even politically good, but maybe it really is morally good. As an old philosophy major, I love to think and talk about this stuff. What do the rest of you think? Are we better people (morally) because we don't own cars?

ILTB--you don't have to answer this time as we know where you stand! (hint hint).

I see what you are saying. My main issue I try to avoid is the "mightier than thou" syndrome people get into when it comes to some topics. Kind of like how vegitarians and vegans act when you order a steak. ;)

Yes, I would say you are morally better on some levels. But it is still a personal choice to not have a car. We live in a culture that prides itself on laziness, so riding a bike or walking everywhere is an obscene concept to most people. Or others have a thing that they are "too good" to ride public transit. It is similar to the mentality people have when driving. They just have to pass you even though they don't really get anywhere faster. Everyone is in a rush and even though bikes can get some places faster. They are not airconditioned/heated with a radio etc. Plus they are not covered for when it rains.

People seem to like to lock themselves in things, now that I think about it. We go home and lock ourselves in and the world out. The same applies to our cars is all. People even have to drive into their garage to avoid actually not being secured within something. Damn. . .that is kind of a depressing concept. :(

I find in my experience that carfree=carefree. Be it for the money saved from parking, insurance, tickets, time looking for parking, gas, maintenance, etc etc etc. Or just the fact that I am outside and not polluting, conjesting, stressing, etc etc. I have to admit that not adding to pollution or other environmental pluses are way off my radar. Just a good bonus I guess. So I am not all *that* morally driven in some respects.

Hmm, I don't necessarilly think that we are better ppl then the next car owner. I definatly think that with our current infrastructure, cars are necessary for a lot of ppl. It would not be realistic to cut cars for ill/disabled ppl, for ppl that live in remote places, for ppl that have certain odd job requirements.

The one thing that a lot of car owners like to forget, is that cars DO pollute, and they DO damage us socially. Most car ownership deffenders like to steer the conversation away from those subjects, back to "I need cars because of this and that". Lots of reasons WHY ppl need cars can be acomodated by making choices differently in our lives. YES there are lots of good valid reasons, but plenty of superficial ones.

There are always ways to diminish your impact on the environment and society. Lots of ppl prefer to simply accept things as necessary evils, and stop to question their own habits. THAT, is what I consider amoral.

-Why do I need my car to drive to the store, 5-10 minutes walk away?
-Why did this chain store decide to build away from any public transit, with non pedestrian friendly parking/entry ways? Do I really want to shop there?
-Is spending 2-3$ (or more) on gas to save 5$ off this widget at super-duper-mega-mart any better then to buy it at the local shop?
-Do I REALLY need a plastic bag for this small box?
-Could I not own a backpack or re-usable shopping bags to carry my purchases around?
-Do I buy this product who travelled across the globe, or this one who travelled 50 miles?

You guys have got me thinking now. I never really think that I am "better" than other people, but sometimes I make better moral choices (and sometimes, unfortunately, I do not). I do believe that carfree is a better moral choice, but truthfully, as cookiepuss and Benyben suggested, morality is not my main reason for being carfree. My main reasons are more selfish, I am carfree because it is fun and it saves me money.

However, in some ways I think carfree living makes us "better" people in another way. No, ILTB, I do not mean better than other people, I mean better than I, myself, would be if I still depended on a car. For example, I think that I have become more resourceful and more imaginative as a result of being carfree. Does anybody else think that they have become a "better" person since giving up the cage?

Car free lifestyle is neither a higher moral objective for bicyclists, nor does such a lifestyle choice promote carfree bicyclists to a higher moral level.
I'll play. Perhaps you are confusing moral behavior with feeling superior. The two sometimes ride the same bus, but they get off at different stops, and each is what it is. Feeling superior isn't admirable, but moral behavior is.

I'm a bit of a Kantian in the morality department, which means basically that I resist the more prevalent "ends-justify-means/greatest-net-contentment" Aristotelian line of moral reasoning that justified, for instance, slavery. Kantian morality boils down to "act only as you might reasonably wish all people to act." If I try to imagine every household in the world allocating resources to own one or more cars, and using them other than as big planters, I imagine a hellish pavement planet that would quickly, mercifully implode in resource depletion after taking a lot of people down with it.

On the other hand, I can imagine a world without cars, like the vast majority of human history. There've been plenty of other problems, but none of them directly tied to the inability of most anybody with a little money to pilot their very own giant steel cage at deadly speeds and vast energy expenditure through inhabited areas. Do you disagree?

I can reasonably imagine and wish for a world in which most every household used bicycles (and similarly slow, low energy technology) for most of their transportation needs. Of course we are a long, long way away from such a world - you're good at cataloging all the unfortunateness - but that has nothing to do with the question at hand.

I can't go carfree... or I should say Truckfree for that is my other hobby (offroading and 4x4ing)

I work 4 miles from home and I am quiting smoking.
Therefore it makes sense to bike for health along with the savings that comes from not driving to work.

Point being is I have seen in my own life pointless trips to the store, or back into town for this or that which wasn't important.
People with cars tend to fall into a convinence trap. Running here or there just because it is easy to do. They fail to plan or think large. Chit half of the time I don't believe they are even thinking at all when they are behind the wheel of a car.

IF someone makes a choice to be carfree, more power to them!! If they have to beg for a ride they are no differant then the carpoolers. If they give gas money and the car owner was driving that way anyways, then it is no big deal.

I love driving, I left home at 17 and drove from Ohio to Cali. I did this round trip three times. I drove from OH to MI 6 times in one summer between my Cali trips. I drove to MN 3 summers in a row before I moved there. and then it was at least 3 trips a year to OH for 5 years.

I don't think I could ever be carfree, but at the same time I can find advantages of being carfree and apply them to my own life and benifit from them.

I think you need to chill out ILTB.

Let's assume we're all idiot cyclists that think we have higher morale than the rest of the world. Well if that annoys you so, then simply don't come here to read those posts. You'll find your spirit will be lifted.

You obviously DON'T want to be car free... This is the car free forum, for car free ppl, or car free wanabe's. I really don't think you fit in any of those categories.

I've got a plan:
1. No more posts from me on the car free list about the gross generalizations being made about what "people" can or can not do. Or about careless assumptions about the availability of public transportation for all "people"; or about single adults making careless assumptions/extrapolations that their personal lifestyle is applicable to other people, especially those raising families.
2. No more smug posts on the bike advocacy or bike commuting lists from this car-free crowd about the alleged moral and personal superiority of their lifestyle choices. Also no more ranting on the other lists by the same smug "better" people about the evils of "cager" culture or assumptions about the alleged desire of any significant number of bicyclists desiring to alter their lifestyle in order to live car free permanently.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I've got a plan:
1. No more posts from me on the car free list about the gross generalizations being made about what "people" can or can not do. Or about careless assumptions about the availability of public transportation for all "people"; or about single adults making careless assumptions/extrapolations that their personal lifestyle is applicable to other people, especially those raising families.
2. No more smug posts on the bike advocacy or bike commuting lists from this car-free crowd about the alleged moral and personal superiority of their lifestyle choices. Also no more ranting on the other lists by the same smug "better" people about the evils of "cager" culture or assumptions about the alleged desire of any significant number of bicyclists desiring to alter their lifestyle in order to live car free permanently.

Sounds reasonable to me.

right on

...I'm a bit of a Kantian in the morality department, which ... boils down to "act only as you might reasonably wish all people to act." ...

But doesn't that lead to wanting everyone to act alike? That result doesn't appeal to me. My thinking has been shaped more by biology than philosophy. Monocultures are vulnerable in lots of ways because the individuals are too much alike. Populations with plenty of diversity are more robust.

If everyone else were walking and riding horses, I'd be one of the guys tinkering with horseless carriages. I zig when everyone else zags.

The hostility experienced by the voluntarily carfree person in a car culture world is about the same that's experienced by a Linux user in a Microsoft world. There's a saying often attributed to Gandhi which goes like this:

First, they laugh at you,
then they ignore you,
then they fight you,
and then you win.