Professional Cycling For the Fans - Stage 14: Agde - Ax Trois Domaines

WTG Jan... he finished pretty high and got himself into fourth place. Moreau has lost his second place. Too bad, he lost so much time yesterday, he was having a great tour and I was rooting for him to have a high finish.

I love that expression, s***ts tiffany cufflinks.

Lance is going to crash on a descent tommorow and end his tour.

Right here.

Just because you dont add the words "you hope" doesnt mean its not infered.

WTG Jan... he finished pretty high and got himself into fourth place. Moreau has lost his second place. Too bad, he lost so much time yesterday, he was having a great tour and I was rooting for him to have a high finish.

I love that expression, s***ts tiffany cufflinks.

Fourth place is not first. Don't over look he lost time today too.

Right here.

Just because you dont add the words "you hope" doesnt mean its not infered.

To clarify, I don't wish a crash on anyone.

Very dramatic day. Totschnig was great, and certainly deserved the win. Jan looked great too, I was sorry to see him crack so badly. The guy has great heart no matter what people say.

I don't agree that Jan & Kloden "chased down" Vino. Seemed like Vino's job as to start the attack, and then was riding pretty much his own game. Was obviously too cooked to succeed on either climb. He is a great racer tho.

Tomorrow will be the "Day of Days"! I think that Lance is going to drop the hammer. Everything points to it.

Ok so question for you: After 8 days from now when Lance wins the TdF for his 7th straight time...who are you going to hate?

Probably whoever wins the Tour de France next year, if said rider doesn't also win a few ProTour races in April. Because said rider will be damaging the sport, or something ;)

Ok here it is again. Same question I have from stage 13 is happening again in stage 14. T Mob has a rider in the breakaway.....WHY?!?!?!?! And when they just showed that the Peleton is chacing it is T Mob making pace at the front of the group. So you have one guy up the road working in the breakaway spending energy and you have the rest of the team making pace for the peleton on the first climb spending energy. What is the stratigy here? IMO something is seriously wrong with the make-up and management of the T Mob squad if their goal is really to beat Lance.

sometimes a team will put a rider in the break so when the leaders catch the break they can assist their teamate (pace them if they are clear or do some hard pulls and then collapse by the side of the road). where as if those riders had just stay in the group they would have likely been dropped and wouldn't be their to do that assisting.

Cunego's Giro D'Italia winning move involved putting two of his teamate in an early break... Cunego broke away on the penultimate climb, on the valley floor after the decent his two teamate waited for him... paced him to the foot of the last climb and launched him... boom, race in the bag. think of it as a way to have help up there that wouldn't otherwise be there... everyone know these guys are going to be caught so it may not effect other tactics... i.e. if it's time for T-mobile to attack it's time to attack and i can actually attack with more confidence because i know that i have so help up the road as well...

Thanks on the water bottle folks... So was Lance penalize for it in the end?

Right AMD is a sponsor as well, I was use to the team being called Discovery rather than AMD.

Lance is a Machine and I'm sure going to miss watching him. I rewatched "The Big Six" last night on DVD, during all the climbing stages it's amazing the power reserves LA has, he doesn't look like he has lost much if anything since his first win.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tour05/tour0514/cycling-tdf2005-totschni-21.jpg

The man of the day.

Screw the jersey. That's a great photo of utter joy and disbelief. What a great moment when Totschnig took the podium, tears in his eyes. Was it just me, or did it look like he really didn't want to leave when it came time to shake the dignitaries' hands, just wanted to savor the moment a little bit longer? Beautiful.

Everything points to it.

(Shakes his head and wonders what those signs are)..

Thanks on the water bottle folks... So was Lance penalize for it in the end?

Right AMD is a sponsor as well, I was use to the team being called Discovery rather than AMD.

Lance is a Machine and I'm sure going to miss watching him. I rewatched "The Big Six" last night on DVD, during all the climbing stages it's amazing the power reserves LA has, he doesn't look like he has lost much if anything since his first win.

Not sure and I don't think we will know until later after they review it. Even if it is 10 sec I don't think it matters. today with the time bonus he gained 6 sec over Basso...take 10 sec from him and he still has a 2:36 lead on him so no big deal. If it is a money fine. Eh so what the guy is going to make >$28 million US this year. :D

Right, in the scheme of things it was a good tradeoff, it might have been different if Rassmussen would have hung with Lance right to the finish line.

sometimes a team will put a rider in the break so when the leaders catch the break they can assist their teamate (pace them if they are clear or do some hard pulls and then collapse by the side of the road). where as if those riders had just stay in the group they would have likely been dropped and wouldn't be their to do that assisting.

Cunego's Giro D'Italia winning move involved putting two of his teamate in an early break... Cunego broke away on the penultimate climb, on the valley floor after the decent his two teamate waited for him... paced him to the foot of the last climb and launched him... boom, race in the bag. think of it as a way to have help up there that wouldn't otherwise be there... everyone know these guys are going to be caught so it may not effect other tactics... i.e. if it's time for T-mobile to attack it's time to attack and i can actually attack with more confidence because i know that i have so help up the road as well...

Yea a bit later I put 2 and 2 together and figured that out for myself...so I take it back, brilliant move by T Mob...oh well it didn't work :D

Does anyone think that Vino is going to resign with T-Mobile after they chased him down not once, but twice today?

Welcome to Discovery, Vino. :)

Does anyone think that Vino is going to resign with T-Mobile after they chased him down not once, but twice today?

Welcome to Discovery, Vino. :)

That was a shame or some sort of team tatics...

- because today proved that he has the best form right now
- because tomorrow is going to be the hardest stage of the race
- because tomorrow is the last of the really hard stages, and will probably be his last chance to win a stage that's not a time trial
- because he can attack tomorrow without having to conserve too much energy for the following day (a rest day)
- because tomorrow is the 10th anniversary of the death of his old teammate (who's name escapes me right now) and Lance has already shown how important that anniversary is to him

Obviously, anything can happen. But I think he drops the hammer tomorrow, and its "race over".

That was a shame or some sort of team tatics...

i wasn't there a the breakfast table with them this morning but.. what Vino was up to was likely not a part of the plan... so it's likely shame on Vino for not following the plan... Kloden, and Ullrich were probably like, f**k'um lets do what we came here to do. contrary to common wisdom on this board and in the press Ullrich has shown himself to be the strong man on T-mobile and at this late stage of the race should have had the full support of Vino.. haven't watched this yet but kinda sounds like what happened from my reading.

i wasn't there a the breakfast table with them this morning but.. what Vino was up to was likely not a part of the plan... so it's likely shame on Vino for not following the plan... Kloden, and Ullrich were probably like, f**k'um lets do what we came here to do. contrary to common wisdom on this board and in the press Ullrich has shown himself to be the strong man on T-mobile and at this late stage of the race should have had the full support of Vino.. haven't watched this yet but kinda sounds like what happened from my reading.

Who boned who? We may never know, but regardless, it doesn't bode well for the Vino T-Mobile connection. Remember that Vino has already stated that he will either resign with T-Mobile, or sign a contract with Discovery. No other teams interest him.

- because today proved that he has the best form right now
- because tomorrow is going to be the hardest stage of the race
- because tomorrow is the last of the really hard stages, and will probably be his last chance to win a stage that's not a time trial
- because he can attack tomorrow without having to conserve too much energy for the following day (a rest day)
- because tomorrow is the 10th anniversary of the death of his old teammate (who's name escapes me right now) and Lance has already shown how important that anniversary is to him

Obviously, anything can happen. But I think he drops the hammer tomorrow, and its "race over".

Lance did show good form and did pull away the last Km..Everybody hung with him till then though... JU, Basso have shown form as well... Points 2 thru 4 are true for every GC contendor in this year tour... He may ride with more emotion than usual but guys like Vino ride with emotion every day...

Look for Botero to go on a long breakaway again... I am not sure if he will be able to do anything... Vino might join him..

Screw the jersey. That's a great photo of utter joy and disbelief. What a great moment when Totschnig took the podium, tears in his eyes. Was it just me, or did it look like he really didn't want to leave when it came time to shake the dignitaries' hands, just wanted to savor the moment a little bit longer? Beautiful.

One of the great moments of the tour so far.

edit: Now if Chris Horner could get a stage win.... :)

Ya think he woulda shaved, and remembered to zip his jersey...
:D


as for shaving, I think old cycling lore dictates that you never shave/cut your hair/shower before a big race. Or so some old saying goes...

as for shaving, I think old cycling lore dictates that you never shave/cut your hair/shower before a big race. Or so some old saying goes...

The cyclists avoid A/C, taking showers (the water on the skin apparently has a negative affect, or so they believe), don't eat hot sauce, and a number of other things.

With regards to the jersey being unzipped, I was thinking that when he reached the 1km banner, but the guy was just pumping too fast, and the LA chase too furious, so he simply could not waste the time nor energy to spare to zip up the jersey during the last climb.

I think that the team will be happier with this amazing stage win than if he slowed down to help out Levi. Remember this guy was part of a group that attacked at 10km. He was not riding faster up the last mountain, he simply was able to hold on to that lead. So even if he watied for Levi, it's likely that Levi actually had "more gas in the tank" anyway than he did. that was an amazing job though, and I lvoe that picture of his face when he crossed the line.

So I think that we finally answered the question "why does Vino wear that green jersey?" Well, we know he's the Kazak champ, but I think that his decision to wear the jersey has more to do with a symbolic statement "I'm not part of this team" than any type of national pride. (He is a real hero in his homeland, apparently able to use state choppers to drop him off at various desolate locations to train). I'm suprised by this because I have heard that Jan actually liked Vino and gave him some extra spark.

I'm suprised by this because I have heard that Jan actually liked Vino and gave him some extra spark.

Yeah from what I have heard they are/were at one time quite good friends.

Two points among all the BS ... ;)

1. Organizers waived the "no water on climbs" rule today because of the heat.

2. Gerard Holtz (Velo Club) interviewed Totschnig shortly after the race and asked "was this the biggest day of your life?". Georg replied "In sport, yes. But I had a little child, and that is more important than sport."

He seems pretty genuine.

Holy Crap!!!

76 Santiago Botero (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems 29.08
...
79 Roberto Heras (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth st.
80 Chris Horner (USA) Saunier Duval-Prodir st.

I really think Lance was measuring his opponents today. Waiting until the Last km to put some time on them. Hes been waiting all tour to see if anyone has the power to match him. Everyone has been waiting for this stage to determine if Lance has really got it or if a challenger could rise to challenge him. Today he found out no one does.

Tommorow he will look to exact some pain. :D

...who are you going to hate?


...Just tired of people who think he...


Damn 99ers!

I think he doesn't like anything that makes the sport more popular in the US.

Screw the jersey. That's a great photo of utter joy and disbelief. What a great moment when Totschnig took the podium, tears in his eyes. Was it just me, or did it look like he really didn't want to leave when it came time to shake the dignitaries' hands, just wanted to savor the moment a little bit longer? Beautiful.

Well said.

That was a terrific display of emotion. There's so much money and so little heart displayed in so much of professional sports, it was refreshing to see Totschnig's reaction today. It reminded me that there are still professionals who are truly moved and overjoyed when they accomplish a goal that maybe they even surprised themselves a little in achieving.

My Goodness Me!!! The emotion Totschnig showed on the podium brought a lump to my throat. Another example of why I love the Tour.

"In sport, yes. But I had a little child, and that is more important than sport."


Nice. I don't think there's a lot of blowhards in the pro peloton; wasn't it Vino a couple of years ago who rocked the cradle as he crossed the line? and earlier this week they showed another rider with a pacifier dangling from one of his seat rails to celebrate his new baby.

Totschnig is my hero. He had so much emotion, I love it!

Nice. I don't think there's a lot of blowhards in the pro peloton; wasn't it Vino a couple of years ago who rocked the cradle as he crossed the line? and earlier this week they showed another rider with a pacifier dangling from one of his seat rails to celebrate his new baby.

Yeah, and in '03 (or was it '02?) Carlos Sastre won and pulled out a pacifier and put it in his mouth as he crossed the line. Phil Ligget called it a dummy.

Stage 14 made the stage 15 all the more interesting.

It seems like other GC contenders are afraid of going ahead and crack themselves up ang go down even further. I'd like to see some of them take a chance and do just that.

In a tactical point of view, the challengers had to show the statement that they are worthy of challenging the champion long a go in the tour. They didn't, because they couldn't. I think Lance has been getting the message all along the way. I think it's Lance's decision, when he'll take off, leave the others way behind. Only interesting point will be who can follow him closest and how far back.

Thanks on the water bottle folks... So was Lance penalize for it in the end?

Right AMD is a sponsor as well, I was use to the team being called Discovery rather than AMD.

Lance is a Machine and I'm sure going to miss watching him. I rewatched "The Big Six" last night on DVD, during all the climbing stages it's amazing the power reserves LA has, he doesn't look like he has lost much if anything since his first win.

It was his cadence today on those two climbs that I thought was interesting... he was spinning, while every one else was working bigger gears... a bit of insight there eh?

It was his cadence today on those two climbs that I thought was interesting... he was spinning, while every one else was working bigger gears... a bit of insight there eh?

He almost always spins at a higher rate in a lower gear than his competitors, esp Jan who likes to climb in those ridiculous gears.

1. Organizers waived the "no water on climbs" rule today because of the heat.

Ok that was a VERY smart move by the race organizers...good to see the health of the racers is improtant to those in charge.

i wasn't there a the breakfast table with them this morning but.. what Vino was up to was likely not a part of the plan... so it's likely shame on Vino for not following the plan... Kloden, and Ullrich were probably like, f**k'um lets do what we came here to do. contrary to common wisdom on this board and in the press Ullrich has shown himself to be the strong man on T-mobile and at this late stage of the race should have had the full support of Vino.. haven't watched this yet but kinda sounds like what happened from my reading.

So Vino catches up after the first climb, only to waste it in a short-lived sprint at the bottom of the last climb. It wasn't so much as he was "pulled back" by his own team (as our announcers were so fond of saying), but that he tried to charge it, lost his gas and got sucked back in and dropped. Would have happened whether T-mobile was pacing or not (just would have taken slightly longer).

The question is, whether his little attacks were because he has renounced allegiance to his team, or if he was trying to tempt Armstrong to jump on and poop out. In the latter case I admit T-mobile could have played it better by letting him go some more. But Armstrong is probably too smart to chase Vino at this point. In any case what could Vino have done for Ullrich on the last climb anyway? Vino is clearly used up.

Today Vino was about as responsible for Ullrich as the rest of the Disco team was for Lance... which is to say both Vino and Disco were irrelevant today. It was as simple as Ullrich not being able to hang on to Armstrong and Basso.

sometimes a team will put a rider in the break so when the leaders catch the break they can assist their teamate (pace them if they are clear or do some hard pulls and then collapse by the side of the road). where as if those riders had just stay in the group they would have likely been dropped and wouldn't be their to do that assisting.

Cunego's Giro D'Italia winning move involved putting two of his teamate in an early break... Cunego broke away on the penultimate climb, on the valley floor after the decent his two teamate waited for him... paced him to the foot of the last climb and launched him... boom, race in the bag. think of it as a way to have help up there that wouldn't otherwise be there... everyone know these guys are going to be caught so it may not effect other tactics... i.e. if it's time for T-mobile to attack it's time to attack and i can actually attack with more confidence because i know that i have so help up the road as well...

The example given, while a good strategy, is not exactly what occured today. Vino attacked first, with the break further up the mountain, and the Tour leader behind him with no helpers. The danger to Armstrong is that Vino will catch the break and have them to work with. The time difference between Armstrong and Vino was shrinking and could disappear if Vino caught the break. Realizing this, Armstrong would have to attack his group, get clear, and tempo up to Vino. As we know, that is entirely possible given his past performances. Instead, it's Vino's teammates who use tempo as a way to lift the pace, simultaneously pacing Armstrong up to Vino, and then sitting up after the catch. There isn't a team that can ride a tempo to drop Armstrong. And it's hard to find anyone who can accelerate to break clear of Armstrong. But when you add up all the factors today, Kloden and Ullrich ended up helping Armstrong.

What an effort by Geo Toshnicht ! He couldn't even stay up, his legs buckled after the all out effort.

Will he be able to do the same tomorrow? I thinks his legs are shot, all it matters to him today was the stage win, and he got it. He'll drop the well below the GC chart tomorrow.

Corsaire

The example given, while a good strategy, is not exactly what occured today. Vino attacked first, with the break further up the mountain, and the Tour leader behind him with no helpers. The danger to Armstrong is that Vino will catch the break and have them to work with. The time difference between Armstrong and Vino was shrinking and could disappear if Vino caught the break. Realizing this, Armstrong would have to attack his group, get clear, and tempo up to Vino. As we know, that is entirely possible given his past performances. Instead, it's Vino's teammates who use tempo as a way to lift the pace, simultaneously pacing Armstrong up to Vino, and then sitting up after the catch. There isn't a team that can ride a tempo to drop Armstrong. And it's hard to find anyone who can accelerate to break clear of Armstrong. But when you add up all the factors today, Kloden and Ullrich ended up helping Armstrong.

The overall problem for T-Mobile (and everyone else) is that no one can tempo to drop Armstrong. In the end, it really was irrelevant if Vino attacked or Kloden and JU paced up to him. If Kloden and JU hold back then Lance probably just attacks them and he is capable of dropping both of 'em. So they probably figured they might be able to keep a pace that keeps Lance from attacking and then maybe pull it out at the top. If Vino gets away or falls back to them it all good. In the end Vino fell back and out. And Lance still attacked.

I think it would have been better if Vino stayed in that group and tried to work with Kloden and Jan. All three might have been better off....

RE: All this talk of Lance's team being weak:

The lack of any major GC attacks in 2004 over inflated the value of the team in people's minds. They're still a great team but last year spoiled our thinking.

Here it is in a nutshell - Disco sits this one out and Lance has to ride like the rest of the peleton for a few climbs (geeze - other riders do it all the time. but some think Lance can only ride with 3 team mates to "protect him").

Disco had an easy ride today just as they did in stage 8. Tomorrow Lance wins the stage - adds to to his 1:40+ lead, and so goes the tour.

The team car was right behind the top GC group. Wow, what if Lance flats!!! Wow what if....? Why is this so much more of a concern for the greatest rider icurrently ridning the GT's?

He owned the lot of them today... Tomorrow is just a team training ride.

Maybe next year when Lance is commentating instead of kickin-ass, there will be a new "mellow johnny"!

Later and I can't wait for the "Looks like sharks teeth profile"!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//tour05/graphics/profile15.gif

Lance is going to crash on a descent tommorow and end his tour.

Your's is a broken record that keeps on playing. Just admit it - HE'S KICKING EVERYONE'S A** AGAIN! Like it or not, that's the truth. You can keep finding nits to pick, but he's answered all challenges, claims that it's just his team, and the man still wins. Maybe when he wins tomorrow or the ITT, you can start dogging his DS or mechanics.

Jeez. I can't wait for the Tour to end so that all these dickwads will go play on another forum.

Lance will do the 'reverse'.. a move that will be talked about for years... He will go the wrong way at the beginning of the first climb to give his main GC contendors a headstart, ask his team to stay behind and then catch everybody and pass them...

A few miscellaneous and uneducated observations:

1. I almost get the sense that Lance "uses" the other teams (T-Mobile in today's case) as a secondary team. He seems to follow their leads and attacks until he wears them down - I think the whole tour is his team.

2. No one has been able to physically equal or surpass Armstrong (physiology, training, mental and emotional toughness). He's unique (and has been for the past six TdFs)! That allows him to think, react, plan, and perform differently from most of the other riders. I don't know who else could do what he did today - maybe Basso. The "gang of three" gave him all they had today, and he absorbed it and handled them.

3. Would Disco have reacted differently if Beltran had not been forced to quit? He was one of the team linch-pins in the mountains. The Discovery team (Lance and Bruyneel) said that he was a key and that they would have to adjust tactics to cover his retirement from the race. Lance did that today - he adjusted.

I really want LA to win, and I want him to punctuate today's statement with another dominating ride tomorrow. Short of injury or some radical actions by fans, there doesn't seem to be anyone good enough, smart enough, or as likeable . . . (oops, I was thinking of Stuart Smalley). Well, you get the idea.

Dean

i just can't understand why jan and then kloden would pace lance after vino has initiated an attack. they keep bringing lance back. all i can think is that they know vino is not gonna re-sign with t-mobile after the race, so they're working against him to make a point. word is that vino really likes the idea of signing with discovery; maybe that has ticked t-mobile off. any other thoughts?

That was a terrific display of emotion. There's so much money and so little heart displayed in so much of professional sports, it was refreshing to see Totschnig's reaction today. It reminded me that there are still professionals who are truly moved and overjoyed when they accomplish a goal that maybe they even surprised themselves a little in achieving.

It was amazing when Totschnig crossed the line and threw his hands up .... then a few seconds later it really hit him and you could see the emotion well up from deep in his core. His 2nd reaction was so strong I thought he was going to go down. Had to leave for work ... the finish made me late ;) Can't wait to see the podium awards tonight!

Jan is turning into a beast in the 2nd week of the tour like he always does, he was impressive today but LA had all the answers.

I think it's more likely that Vino is the loose cannon trying to up his value on the open market and Ulrich and Kloden didn't take kindly to him thumbing his nose at them ... esp when Ulrich is clearly the strongest rider on T-Mobile at this stage of the tour.

You have to hand it to Jan....he crashes, his side hurts, he's humiliated in the prolog, dissed by the press, but he just doesn't quit. He manages to haul himself up and move into 4th place. THat takes even more effort than staying in first place, if you think about it. Don't underestimate a determined German! I always admire moxie- WTG Jan!