Professional Cycling For the Fans - Stage 14: Agde - Ax Trois Domaines

I think it's more like "Vino attacked Ullrich" than the opposite. He should have worked for Ullrich!

It'll be interesting to read tomorrow morning about any fallout from TMob's weird crap today, whether it was planned this way stupidly, or Vino went rogue, or what. But I have one thing to say to all the people who are dissing Vino for (possibly) attacking without Ullrich's permission- the guy's practically a saint for putting up with the Tmob garbage, and most importantly Ullrich has proven for 6 straight years that he's simply not a winner on the highest level. Time after time after time, the same mistakes. You cannot argue with that- same freaking mistakes year after year after year. And I like Ullrich, I genuinely do. He's a great bike rider, but it's time to get over the fact that he was the best rider in a '97 Tour at an absurdly young age. He has not lived up to his potential since then- except for the odd World's TT and 2nd grade tour- and it's poretty apparent he simply doesn't have the mental makeup of a champion. So let Vino attack, I say, at least the guy wants to win. I sometimes wonder if Ullrich even remembers the point of racing anymore.

......1. I almost get the sense that Lance "uses" the other teams (T-Mobile in today's case) as a secondary team. He seems to follow their leads and attacks until he wears them down - I think the whole tour is his team......Dean


You make an interesting point. It has already been pointed out that Vinokourov is experiencing retribution for his comments earlier in the season that he wanted to play for another team. It's been speculated that Discovery recognized and would take advantage of that turmoil within the T-mobile ranks. I've noticed Lance never responds to Vino's attacks. They are to his advantage. The closer Vino is in the standings, the more Jan and Andreas will attack him. I am not convinced Vino will work for Jan or Andreas under any circumstances. And as evidenced today, his attacks are being neutralized by his own teamates.

I also have to disagree with assessments made of Totschnig stage win and Gerolsteiner tactics today. Brilliant win by the Austrian. I do not discount his talent.

BUT

He's 12 minutes behind GC and 10 minutes off the podium. His teammate Levi is 4 minutes off GC and 2 minutes off the podium.

What would have been a collosal win for Gerolsteiner is to get one of their men on the podium. What would be a massive victory for the team and their sponsors. But most importantly, it would establish Gerolsteiner as the primier German Bicycling Team. They've always been in the shadow of the T-Mobile powerhouse.

Because Totschnig went for the win today, I'm convinced they lost a precious opportunity to put Levi closer to the podium. His valiant climbing ability would have been useful to his teammate who currently possesses better form, better position, and better marketability for their sponsors.

European Teams just don't get it. You want Discovery sized budgets and sponsors, you have to race like them.

What they accomplished today was a great stage win. Now he's 10 minutes off GC instead of 12. But he's still not in the top ten. And Levi is in ffifth place 11 precious seconds behind fourth place Jan Ullrich. With those kinds of team tactics, they will always be the B Team in Germany.

It'll be interesting to read tomorrow morning about any fallout from TMob's weird crap today, whether it was planned this way stupidly, or Vino went rogue, or what. But I have one thing to say to all the people who are dissing Vino for (possibly) attacking without Ullrich's permission- the guy's practically a saint for putting up with the Tmob garbage, and most importantly Ullrich has proven for 6 straight years that he's simply not a winner on the highest level. Time after time after time, the same mistakes. You cannot argue with that- same freaking mistakes year after year after year. And I like Ullrich, I genuinely do. He's a great bike rider, but it's time to get over the fact that he was the best rider in a '97 Tour at an absurdly young age. He has not lived up to his potential since then- except for the odd World's TT and 2nd grade tour- and it's poretty apparent he simply doesn't have the mental makeup of a champion. So let Vino attack, I say, at least the guy wants to win. I sometimes wonder if Ullrich even remembers the point of racing anymore.


What mistakes are those? Riding in the Tour the same years that Lance Armstrong did. I think that T-Mobile had a small chance today if Vino, Kloden, and Ullrich worked together. They might have been able to gring out a pace that would have dropped him. But that probably wasn't going to work either. I'm a Vino and an Ullrich fan. I also realize that neither one of them are going to beat LA.

To say that Ullrich doesn't have the mental makeup of a champion is nonsense. He has won the Tour before. And had has numerous runner up finishes. Aside from LA, nobody has done as well in the TdF over the since 1996.

That label belongs on guys who departed USPS/Disco to be leaders of other teams only to falter. Guys like Heras...

From http://sport.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1640442005


The impression that Armstrong is seriously fatigued was underlined when, during his post-race press conference, he repeatedly dropped his bottle of water.

From http://sport.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1640442005

Nam! Miss your rips from last year man - those were the bomb :mad:

The cycling undead known as rassmuseen has joined lance again...

That guy is scary...

that tops calling him skeletor

so funny!!!!

The example given, while a good strategy, is not exactly what occured today. Vino attacked first, with the break further up the mountain, and the Tour leader behind him with no helpers. The danger to Armstrong is that Vino will catch the break and have them to work with. The time difference between Armstrong and Vino was shrinking and could disappear if Vino caught the break. Realizing this, Armstrong would have to attack his group, get clear, and tempo up to Vino. As we know, that is entirely possible given his past performances. Instead, it's Vino's teammates who use tempo as a way to lift the pace, simultaneously pacing Armstrong up to Vino, and then sitting up after the catch. There isn't a team that can ride a tempo to drop Armstrong. And it's hard to find anyone who can accelerate to break clear of Armstrong. But when you add up all the factors today, Kloden and Ullrich ended up helping Armstrong.

...we are not talking about Vino, we are talking about Daniele Nardello who was in the early break for precisely the reason i said... and when caught did precisely as i described

i just can't understand why jan and then kloden would pace lance after vino has initiated an attack. they keep bringing lance back. all i can think is that they know vino is not gonna re-sign with t-mobile after the race, so they're working against him to make a point. word is that vino really likes the idea of signing with discovery; maybe that has ticked t-mobile off. any other thoughts?

I know that this is what they were saying on television, but Vino's "attacks" were all bluff. He could never keep up the pace and was hardly even relevant to today's stage... was the rest of T-mobile supposed to slow down just because Vino jumped? I don't think Armstrong is scared of losing a couple minutes to Vino, remember Vino was about 5 minutes back at the start of the stage. His reckless attacking resulted in losing 2 more minutes, and this is hardly the fault of the rest of his team.

btw the only person who can "bring Lance back" on a 10% climb is Lance. Lance would have trounced Vino on the last climb regardless of whether T-mobile "paced" or not. I didn't see any ropes attaching Lance to the back of Jan's seat...

It'll be interesting to read tomorrow morning about any fallout from TMob's weird crap today, whether it was planned this way stupidly, or Vino went rogue, or what. But I have one thing to say to all the people who are dissing Vino for (possibly) attacking without Ullrich's permission- the guy's practically a saint for putting up with the Tmob garbage, and most importantly Ullrich has proven for 6 straight years that he's simply not a winner on the highest level. Time after time after time, the same mistakes. You cannot argue with that- same freaking mistakes year after year after year. And I like Ullrich, I genuinely do. He's a great bike rider, but it's time to get over the fact that he was the best rider in a '97 Tour at an absurdly young age. He has not lived up to his potential since then- except for the odd World's TT and 2nd grade tour- and it's poretty apparent he simply doesn't have the mental makeup of a champion. So let Vino attack, I say, at least the guy wants to win. I sometimes wonder if Ullrich even remembers the point of racing anymore.

yeah but who has shown they are the strongest man at T-mobile... c'mon, Vino had his chance to show what he had and he came up more wanting that Ullrich...

[Edit] look no further than the GC.. 4 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 4.34, 9 Alexandre Vinokourov(Kaz) T-Mobile Team 7.09... I like Vino but when it came to the big mountains he just wasn't as good as Ullrich

imo, this guy did a good job describing today's stage: bicyling mag article. (http://www.tourdefrancenews.com/tourdefrance/experts/columns/0,5976,s1-12681-684-expert,00.html)

i don't know anything, but...
it looks to me like a good portion of the weaker disco team this year (besides beltran now being out) is the loss of landis. landis is to disco what kloden is to t-mobile, except that landis isn't on disco this year.
has anyone else won the tour at the age lance is? i want lance to win and i worry that the couple or few years he has on guys like basso won't allow his body to recover as well for tomorrow.

great tour!!!!!

I was watching stage 14 on the big screen at the theater and Totschnig's win was great, it was his first, everone was happy for him but we all couldn't help but laugh at him when he won and phil said he was going to get yelled at because he forgot to zip up.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/images/17_7_2005_cycling16.jpg

That's one way to piss off your sponsor....

Did anybody notice how Vino's attack on the last climb to AX3 Domaines was nullified
by his own teammates: Ulrich and Kloden. That chase by the very own T-Mobile team is enough reason to make Vino finalize his tranfer to another team. Disocvery perhaps.

COrsaire

Thanks for the clarification! As I pointed out, I agree that it's a good strategy.

This is going to be an exciting weekend! I'll guess and say that I think that if the attack comes from a GC contender on Pailheres Armstrong will let them run and stick with the team's steady tempo (allowing him to descend faster). On Ax-3 Domaines, the tempo of remaining team members will increase rapidly. right at the bottom, to limit potential for anything additional from going off the front.

At this point, I'd guess that one of two things will happen. Option A is pursue (without intention to catch and pass), push them to burn themselves up for Sunday, and let them win the stage (he might even say that he's feeling sick/dehydrated/old in the post stage interview and wary of his chances on Sunday). Option B is to catch them and pass them in order to gain time and "punish" them...putting them on the same level of suffering going into Sunday. If I had to guess, I would say that A is more likely. Sunday's stage is the "Queen" stage, I believe and others have noted that it would be the last potential for a hilltop win...plus the Casartelli memorial. In addition, I do not look for Rasmussen to be able to excel on Sunday..., I fear that he may dehydrate on the early climbs and really hurt at the end. I think tomorrow (Sat) will be a tempo day with an Armstrong decoy "burst" on the final climb to make the attackers run themselves out of contention for Sunday. I do not think Armstrong will win the stage.

PS...I would not bet *anything* on my prediction!

I was soooo freakin' wrong! Ha! This was an incredibly exciting stage. My hat is off to T-Mobile for going all out. That turned the excitement value of this stage up to 11.

I guess skeletor is human after all. You have to admire the guy, but even he can't keep up on the super tough climbs. I even saw him with a water bottle on one of the climbs. Come to think of it, maybe that's what held him back the whole time.

I loved the attacking by T-Mobile. Say what you want about how it turned out, but they had to attack today. Ullrich and Vino are so far back that they could only make up their needed time in the mountains. There are only a few mountain stages left, so today was the day. Will they crack tomorrow? Who cares? At least they gave it a shot. They raced to win, and I admire that.

But you have to admire Armstrong even more. There were lots of attacks, but he fought them all off. All of this with no Discovery teammates to "hide" behind. Like it or not, today he proved that he's the best.

Tomorrow should be a good one.

Did anybody notice how Vino's attack on the last climb to AX3 Domaines was nullified
by his own teammates: Ulrich and Kloden. That chase by the very own T-Mobile team is enough reason to make Vino finalize his tranfer to another team. Disocvery perhaps.

COrsaire

Bah...his attack was nullified by the fact that he blew up. Vino wasn't going anywhere on that second attack. He attacked earlier and got caught and dropped. Then he rode like hell to catch up only to then try another attack. He should have at least waited a kilometer or two to recover before attacking. Kloden and Ullrich were trying to dump LA and rest of the guys. Vino was a non-factor. As soon as that climb steepened Vino blew up and got dropped for good. What was JU and Kloden supposed to do, slow down so that Lance could attack and drop them?

Ya know I love what Lance has done for the sport, mostly because he is an American and because he will always be talked about as one of the imortals. BUT these gingoistic (sp?) clowns who diss Jan, will never have any clue of what true sport is all about. The best analogy I can come up with is Lance is Bill Russell and Jan is Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt was an all time great but had the misfourtune to play in the same era as one of the greatest "champions" of all time. That does not belittle the others effort, or their greatness. Jan won a tour before lance and may very well win again. Russell won 11 championships, therefor Wilt had to scramble for the "leftovers". So for all the Lance fans out there, I ask you how anticlimatic would it have been the last 4/5 years without Jans "tourtured" efforts? There are no great champions without a great opponite to test your mettle. Please, do not demean a wonderful athlete who pours his heart out across the macadam of France just because he has the poor timing to compete with one of the top cyclists of all time.

I know that this is what they were saying on television, but Vino's "attacks" were all bluff. He could never keep up the pace and was hardly even relevant to today's stage... was the rest of T-mobile supposed to slow down just because Vino jumped? I don't think Armstrong is scared of losing a couple minutes to Vino, remember Vino was about 5 minutes back at the start of the stage. His reckless attacking resulted in losing 2 more minutes, and this is hardly the fault of the rest of his team.

btw the only person who can "bring Lance back" on a 10% climb is Lance. Lance would have trounced Vino on the last climb regardless of whether T-mobile "paced" or not. I didn't see any ropes attaching Lance to the back of Jan's seat...

As pointed out elsewhere on this thread, Armstrong has a good sense of who's a threat at anytime and it would astound me to know that he perceived Vinokourov's attacks as "bluff" when you consider Vino's rides in Tour 2003 to Gap and up the Peyresourde. With a breakaway group up the road, an attacking Vinokourov could recruit an ally or two to speed up the Port de Pailheres, cross to the Ax Trois Domaines and finish at the top with a large chunk of time in hand. He wouldn't even need to win the stage. Armstrong was in the process of assessing if he should attack and shed Ullrich and Kloden when they did him a favor and lifted the tempo to pull Armstrong back to Vino, the same as if they were Discovery teammates. They didn't attack Armstrong...they didn't slow down.

It's obvious now that Vino does not have the strength he had in 2003...but he has panache, and you always have to worry about a rider with panache.

As others have pointed out, the best way to isolate Armstrong from his team is to attack it...make them ride with erratic changes in tempo. You can't expect them to crack by riding their tempo. Who else is going to do it, besides Vinokourov?

everybody looks a whole lot uglier and uncool with the helmets on in the mountain stages :(

As pointed out elsewhere on this thread, Armstrong has a good sense of who's a threat at anytime and it would astound me to know that he perceived Vinokourov's attacks as "bluff" when you consider Vino's rides in Tour 2003 to Gap and up the Peyresourde. With a breakaway group up the road, an attacking Vinokourov could recruit an ally or two to speed up the Port de Pailheres, cross to the Ax Trois Domaines and finish at the top with a large chunk of time in hand. He wouldn't even need to win the stage. Armstrong was in the process of assessing if he should attack and shed Ullrich and Kloden when they did him a favor and lifted the tempo to pull Armstrong back to Vino, the same as if they were Discovery teammates. They didn't attack Armstrong...they didn't slow down.

It's obvious now that Vino does not have the strength he had in 2003...but he has panache, and you always have to worry about a rider with panache.

As others have pointed out, the best way to isolate Armstrong from his team is to attack it...make them ride with erratic changes in tempo. You can't expect them to crack by riding their tempo. Who else is going to do it, besides Vinokourov?

The problem with Vino is that he couldn't keep up with himself. I really don't think that Ullrich and Kloden rode Lance right up to him. Vino blew up as he did earlier in the day. If anything, I think they were trying to link up with him to try ride Lance off. Seriously, look at what he had to do just to catch up. He caught up on the decent. As the road flattened and started to rise a bit he had a tough time just closing the last 30 meters. Then he just figures he's going to blow by Kloden, Ullrich, Armstrong, Basso, etc...up another brutal climb. No way. He attacked to soon and blew up. He wasn't catching anyone up that last climb. If Kloden and Ulrich slowed then Lance and Basso would have left them. Vino blew up and was ejected out the rear of that group.

I love Vino's gusto, but he's got to know when to check himself. If he hangs with that group for a couple of km to recover, then maybe the 3 T-Mobile guys can launch something. But he rendered himself useless by his foolish attack. If he plays it smart he might have finished in the top 5 instead of out of the top 10.

Yeah, but... it doesn't matter who the "team leader" is, if someone in your team attacks and makes a break, its in your and your teams interest to sit at the back of the group and let the others put the effort in to leading the chase. That way you're in a win-win situation, if the others sit back and don't chase, your team-mate gets a win and so does the team. If the others in your group decide to chase and your just sitting on the back and they eventually catch the breakaway, you will have more "petrol in the tank" at the catch than those who led the chase giving you the energy to counter attack either right then or closer to the finish line, and gain a win for yourself, and the team.

Armstrong and Basso must have been laughing their heads of internally as the T-Mobile boys lead them right back to Vini. Perhaps Ulrich might have stayed with Armstrong or perhaps even attacked him at the top of the climb if he had sat up let the others lead at the bottom.

Imagine a hypothetical situation: if it had been, say George Hincapie making a break at the start of that last climb do you think Lance would have led the group back to him? I think not.

Imagine a hypothetical situation: if it had been, say George Hincapie making a break at the start of that last climb do you think Lance would have led the group back to him? I think not.

Yeah, but Lance is ahead of everyone in the GC. Of course, he lets his guy go. He lets everyone go who are not within a couple of minutes of the lead. Vino was so much down on GC that he really wasn't a threat to LA and Basso on that last climb. Thus, his "attack" was irrelevant. Its not like Vino broke away to a 1 or 2 minute lead. He went up 30 meters or so and then cracked.

I'm actually more inclined to believe that Vino was supposed to lead out Kloden and JU. And he just took it out to fast and dropped everyone. Otherwise, it was just a stupid attack.

Yeah, but... it doesn't matter who the "team leader" is, if someone in your team attacks and makes a break, its in your and your teams interest to sit at the back of the group and let the others put the effort in to leading the chase. That way you're in a win-win situation, if the others sit back and don't chase, your team-mate gets a win and so does the team. If the others in your group decide to chase and your just sitting on the back and they eventually catch the breakaway, you will have more "petrol in the tank" at the catch than those who led the chase giving you the energy to counter attack either right then or closer to the finish line, and gain a win for yourself, and the team...

that's not allways true... and is more a factor on flat stages than climbs... the point is that they are trying to put pressure on Armstrong before they make their move and sitting up an letting Armstrong choose his own pace it not the way to do that... if they sat up, Armstrong collects himself and then launches his own attack and they sure didn't want that... Ullrich and Kloden did what they had to do... Vino might actually be reducing his asking price by his crazy moves.. Armstrong likely wasn't going to chase Vino anyway since he's too far away on GC and has shown he just doesn't have it

Ya know I love what Lance has done for the sport, mostly because he is an American and because he will always be talked about as one of the imortals. BUT these gingoistic (sp?) clowns who diss Jan, will never have any clue of what true sport is all about. The best analogy I can come up with is Lance is Bill Russell and Jan is Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt was an all time great but had the misfourtune to play in the same era as one of the greatest "champions" of all time. That does not belittle the others effort, or their greatness. Jan won a tour before lance and may very well win again. Russell won 11 championships, therefor Wilt had to scramble for the "leftovers". So for all the Lance fans out there, I ask you how anticlimatic would it have been the last 4/5 years without Jans "tourtured" efforts? There are no great champions without a great opponite to test your mettle. Please, do not demean a wonderful athlete who pours his heart out across the macadam of France just because he has the poor timing to compete with one of the top cyclists of all time.

Ok so I started out not liking your comparison of Wilt and Bill. then I thought about it a little more and I have decided thats its acceptable and probably pretty accurate.

I have heard lots of questions and comments about JU training intensity and regimement. Obviously he is a dedicated and brillant rider but in your opinion has he been as dedicated and focused as Lance over the past 6 years.

From all indications, Jan does not have the dedication that Lance does but neither does anyone else and for that matter Lance admitted that he didn't either until he recovered from cancer.

everybody looks a whole lot uglier and uncool with the helmets on in the mountain stages :(

I guess you didn't pay attention when the peloton passed this during today's stage:

From cyclingnews:
"....On the descent of the Portet d'Aspet, the break and peloton passed the flower bedecked monument where Italian 1992 Olympic Champion Fabio Casartelli died after a crash ten years ago tomorrow....."