Professional Cycling For the Fans - Stage 15: Lezat/Leze - Saint Lary Soulan

Didn't Pereiro do today what Hincapie did on Sunday?

You guys just don't get it do you?

NO, he didn't...

Pereiro did not suck wheel in a break for the pratically the entire race and then take the sprint. Pereiro bridged a 6+ min gat to Evan's group and participated in the success of the break... then break was in no danger of being caught so none of the riders really had a vested interest in really putting the hammer down on the final stretch. The only rider that had a vested interest in time was Cadel Evans. Pereiro was obliged to not work as the break got more time as Evans was in a postion to leap frog over Landis (and he did).

So No, Pereiro did the exact opposite of Hincapie!... he did a HUGE effort during the race and at the end when team tactics and race tactics dictated he sat in... since the break was not going to get caught he sat in, everyone else in that group would have been content to work just hard enough to maintain a gap, but since Cadel Evans wanted time he had to work for it... that's the way you are supposed to do it...

With Hincapie it's the exact opposite... in the begining team tactic dictated he not pull so he did no work for most of the race (fine nothing wrong with that). then when team tactics didn't matter any more he still sat in, then when race tactics dictated that he should help Pereiro he still sat in.. then he goes around him at the line... 'Cause he's a PUNK :p

I guess George just didn't suck the wheel to your specifications....

Damn straight he didn't!

Valverde, up the the last climb did as much work as everyone else in that group (which was primarily to sit in since they were leaders) and he probably would have won that stage with or without the efforts of the others, and on top of that he had his teamate Mancebo taking pulls to keep the break going

Hincapie on the other hand didn't do anything all day when all of the riders around him were working their a** off and the people around him directly contributed to his win, there is no way in hell Hincapie would have finished the way he did had he not sat in all day long... he's a bottom feeder..

Hmmm...DocSpoc seems to think that putting in a ton of effort entitles one to a stage win. Funny thing though - I didn't see the peloton sit up to let Chavanel and Horner battle for the stage win last week. And they had both been working so hard! :(

Hmmm...DocSpoc seems to think that putting in a ton of effort entitles one to a stage win. Funny thing though - I didn't see the peloton sit up to let Chavanel and Horner battle for the stage win last week. And they had both been working so hard! :(

holly geeze man... please get a clue, before you reply to one of my posts. i don't know why i'm even replying to this one...

it's not about doing a whole lot of work it's about doing your FAIR SHARE.. and like i said Hincapie can take his victory for what it's worth... it's just that in the future when riders jump and see Hincapie on their wheel they will act appropriately... i.e. sit up... why am i going to work with a guy who is just going to sit on my wheel and go around me at the line, why waste my time.

what we are talking about here is ettiquitte amongst riders IN a break not between riders in a break and in the chase (the relationship in the latter is to be antagonists)... your comment doesn't even come close to making any kind of sense [shaking my head]

Valverde did take a few small pulls and he had Mancebo working for him in the break so that excuses him from taking as many pulls as the others, Mancebo was doing the pulling for Iles Baleares.. this is a team sport... just as when Lance or any other leader, potential stage winner etc. has team mates in a break. and with Valverde we are talking about a few stategic kilometers on the last climb, with Hincapie the Punk sat in for over 100 km!!! when he was given the ok to ride for himself by Brunyeel... if you don't see that as a bu**sh*t win there is something wrong with you.

Do you have the same outrage when Discovery Team sets the pace for the main group up a mountain (ala Stage 10), and does all of the work, with the rest of the wheelsuckers in tow? I don't. But if you do, then fine, the same theory should hold true, if they want to keep up with the Peleton, they should take a pull up front too, and if that tires them out and they get spit out the back, well, that's racing.

I took no issue with Valverde or Hincapie, but I do question why Valverde doesn't incur your same derision, since I don't agree with your "it's OK that he doesn't pull if a teammate is with him" theory. Because he only took a few small pulls, with "few" and "small" being the operative words. And using your rules, if he's going to be part of a break, then he should pull his own weight. And although it is a team sport, that doesn't usually apply to breakaways. Because I think that if Acevedo was with Periero and George up the final climb, and George stayed in back, then you would still have a problem with his win.

George has built a quality rep in a decade and a half in the peloton. So next year during a spring classic when a break developes and he's in it I doubt very much anyone is going to sit up. That is ludicrous. This was a unique situation that probably won't repeat itself.

Do you have the same outrage when Discovery Team sets the pace for the main group up a mountain (ala Stage 10), and does all of the work, with the rest of the wheelsuckers in tow?

Umm, Discovery wasn't just setting the pace up the Courchevel; they were trying to burn off the other riders by setting a blistering pace. It was a tactical attack by the entire team on the other teams and riders.

Even so, on Stage 9, Discovery did set the pace on the front while Moreau, Rasnussen, and Voight went away and the entire peloton followed Discovery because Discovery was setting just fast enough a pace to control the gap to the break. They wanted to be on the front for defensive purposes, and they didn't want anyone else to be there.

You guys keep trying to find some permutation of events which will justify George's actions, but sitting on a break for 100km after you were released from riding for your team leader is still just that; sitting on a break and exploiting it without contributing to it.

I'm about to give up arguing tactics and timing.

I'll give George a pass anyway, for 10 years of pulling and sacrificing for his team leaders, without ever having the opportunity for a stage win, until Sunday.

If Pereiro didn't want him wheel-sucking, shouldn't it be up to Oscar to shake him, either by attacking or slowing, to either drop him, or force GH to the front?

I'm about to give up arguing............

Now you've got it! You are correct, be content like the rest of us. Enjoy GH's win on 15 and OP's win on 16.
:D

Do you have the same outrage when Discovery Team sets the pace for the main group up a mountain (ala Stage 10), and does all of the work, with the rest of the wheelsuckers in tow? I don't. But if you do, then fine, the same theory should hold true, if they want to keep up with the Peleton, they should take a pull up front too, and if that tires them out and they get spit out the back, well, that's racing.
how can you compare two such completely different situations??? Discovery is on the front trying to blow people off the back, trying to set the pace so high that no one can make a break away and they are blowing away members of their own team one by one as a means of setting the pace that high.. no individual who wants to finish the race with the leaders is going to be able to compete with that... you need to ride all 200km well and you have to compete with guys who's job it is to try to blow you away 'cause they are only doing 25-50 km's of the days stage hard.. you are comparing apples and buicks... forget oranges... if a team wants to do that.. well let them take their best shot! i'm going to sit on.



I took no issue with Valverde or Hincapie, but I do question why Valverde doesn't incur your same derision, since I don't agree with your "it's OK that he doesn't pull if a teammate is with him" theory. Because he only took a few small pulls, with "few" and "small" being the operative words. And using your rules, if he's going to be part of a break, then he should pull his own weight. And although it is a team sport, that doesn't usually apply to breakaways. Because I think that if Acevedo was with Periero and George up the final climb, and George stayed in back, then you would still have a problem with his win.

What you are doing is looking at different parts of the race in isolation and not looking at the whole context... i'm not sure if it's on purpose or not, so you can excuse what Hincapie did.

- If Hincapie had done some work, ANY work, even a token efforts in that break from 100km to to foot of the climb and sat on Periero when he went... I have no problem with him taking out the sprint... and i'm not even talking about some killer pulls or anything just anything, give the other guys a hand

- If Hincapie had done no work before the last climb, but helped Periero when he went, i'd have less of a problem with him

It's the fact that he did ABSOLUTELY nothing all day and there was nothing holding him back from participating in the second half of the race, he said that himself... that's what i have a problem with... it's scummy

If Acevedo and Hincapie were in the break and were helping to the foot of the final climb and then Hincapie sits on and Acevedo takes his turn up the final climb, i have no problem... even if Hincapie does very little work before the climb, just a token effort, i have no problem with that... if he had enought to drop Periero like that then he had enough to take a pull, here and there.

In a break there is a time when you all work together to all your benefit and then there is a time to start thinking about the stage win and at that time all bets are off and i'm going to do what i'm going to do to beat you... for Hincapie, that second part was the bascially the whole race for Valverde it was the last few kilometers of an uphill finish, when taken turns has less of an effect since the speed is reduced... that's when you are supposed to be thinking about such things, not 100km out. when you do that 100km out it's call wheel sucking when you do it a few km's from the line it's called strategy.

Umm, Discovery wasn't just setting the pace up the Courchevel; they were trying to burn off the other riders by setting a blistering pace. It was a tactical attack by the entire team on the other teams and riders.

Even so, on Stage 9, Discovery did set the pace on the front while Moreau, Rasnussen, and Voight went away and the entire peloton followed Discovery because Discovery was setting just fast enough a pace to control the gap to the break. They wanted to be on the front for defensive purposes, and they didn't want anyone else to be there.

You guys keep trying to find some permutation of events which will justify George's actions, but sitting on a break for 100km after you were released from riding for your team leader is still just that; sitting on a break and exploiting it without contributing to it.

Ummm, if you actually read my whole quote, you would see that I understand what Discovery was doing, the whole point of my thread was to dispute the other posters assertion that what Valverde did was much different than what Hincapie did. They both did the same thing, that was my whole point. The fact that Mancebo was with Valverde doesn't change anything in my book. So if you have a problem with what Hincapie did, you should also have a problem with what Valverde did as well. But somehow Valverde gets a pass on this, when Hincapie doesn't. Just looking for consistency.

Ummm, if you actually read my whole quote, you would see that I understand what Discovery was doing, the whole point of my thread was to dispute the other posters assertion that what Valverde did was much different than what Hincapie did. They both did the same thing, that was my whole point. The fact that Mancebo was with Valverde doesn't change anything in my book. So if you have a problem with what Hincapie did, you should also have a problem with what Valverde did as well. But somehow Valverde gets a pass on this, when Hincapie doesn't. Just looking for consistency.

Ummm, if you read the live report from cyclingnews.com that i posted earlier, you would see that Valverde did make a significant contribution to the success of his group on stage 10. There is no similarity in his ride to the ride of Hincqapie. But, don't take my word for it, take the word of more informed commentators...read the report. They know more than both of us!

Ummm, if you actually read my whole quote, you would see that I understand what Discovery was doing, the whole point of my thread was to dispute the other posters assertion that what Valverde did was much different than what Hincapie did. They both did the same thing, that was my whole point. The fact that Mancebo was with Valverde doesn't change anything in my book. So if you have a problem with what Hincapie did, you should also have a problem with what Valverde did as well. But somehow Valverde gets a pass on this, when Hincapie doesn't. Just looking for consistency.

Ummm, like i said in my other post when you sit on for 100km [edit]in a break[edit] it's called wheel sucking when you sit on in the last few km's it's called a strategy.

Ummm, if you read the live report from cyclingnews.com that i posted earlier, you would see that Valverde did make a significant contribution to the success of his group on stage 10. There is no similarity in his ride to the ride of Hincqapie. But, don't take my word for it, take the word of more informed commentators...read the report. They know more than both of us!

Walter I must be going blind. My bad! I didn't see Valverde on the front for more than 30 seconds the entire stage, and then he immediately fell back. I guess my eyes are going bad. I invite you to watch the stage yourself. I even watched the stage again last night. Armstrong most of the pulling, Mancebo did some, Rasmussen did some, Valverde did nothing. Again I say I don't care that Valverde won that stage, but he did nothing better than George Hincapie.

It looks like some people have a thorn in their paw over lance Armstrong, and Team Discovery.

Richard

[QUOTE=doctorSpoc
Hincapie is a low down PUNK!!! Pereiro went with him because he wrongly assumed that Hincapie wouldn't pull a stunt like he did.

it's like others said... fine, Hingcapie won the stage... lets see how many people work with him in breaks in the future... wheel suckers get a rep. REAL fast... and lets see how much respect he gets... you can get the win, but when you win like that, you won't get the respect.. so what is that win really worth.
[/QUOTE]

Am I hearing that Hincapie should have given the stage to Pereiro? Or put himself in a position to lose the stage? Wasn't Pereiro considered the better climber? And this stage was a climber's dream. Hincapie should not have made it as far as he did. The climbers should have gotten rid of all the excess baggage way before the finish. Pereiro should not have assumed that Hincapie was not going to go for the win. On courses favoring climbers, the climbers turn up the heat and drop the non-climbers; on courses favoring sprinters, the climbers go to the back of the rocketing peloton. When these don't happen, somebody didn't do their job!

[QUOTE=doctorSpoc
Hincapie is a low down PUNK!!! Pereiro went with him because he wrongly assumed that Hincapie wouldn't pull a stunt like he did.

it's like others said... fine, Hingcapie won the stage... lets see how many people work with him in breaks in the future... wheel suckers get a rep. REAL fast... and lets see how much respect he gets... you can get the win, but when you win like that, you won't get the respect.. so what is that win really worth.


Am I hearing that Hincapie should have given the stage to Pereiro? Or put himself in a position to lose the stage? Wasn't Pereiro considered the better climber? And this stage was a climber's dream. Hincapie should not have made it as far as he did. The climbers should have gotten rid of all the excess baggage way before the finish. Pereiro should not have assumed that Hincapie was not going to go for the win. On courses favoring climbers, the climbers turn up the heat and drop the non-climbers; on courses favoring sprinters, the climbers go to the back of the rocketing peloton. When these don't happen, somebody didn't do their job![/QUOTE]


When these don't happen, somebody didn't do their job!
When these don't happen, somebody didn't do their job!
When these don't happen, somebody didn't do their job!
When these don't happen, somebody didn't do their job!

Precisely the point, how many times does it need to be said.

Bravo flyin hawaiian!!!!

Now, please Mods shut this thread down before it repeats itself for the umpteenth time taking up valuable server space.

Ummm, like i said in my other post when you sit on for 100km [edit]in a break[edit] it's called wheel sucking when you sit on in the last few km's it's called a strategy.

Ummm, and like I said in my other post (and others have mentioned), it wasn't the last few km's that Valverde sat on Mancebo's wheel, it was the whole damn break on a long mountaintop finish. Valverde took a FEW SMALL pulls. You defended this by saying that his teammate (Mancebo) being in the group made this OK. Go look at the tape, and I challenge you to tell me that Valverde was up front for even 1 minute of that very long climb. So, if you're going to hate on George, just be consistent, hate on Valverde as well. I'll choose to hate on neither.

Ummm, if you read the live report from cyclingnews.com that i posted earlier, you would see that Valverde did make a significant contribution to the success of his group on stage 10. There is no similarity in his ride to the ride of Hincqapie. But, don't take my word for it, take the word of more informed commentators...read the report. They know more than both of us!


I've seen the stage twice and Valverde's pulls were minimal. Lance set the pace for at least the plurality of the climb.

I must say, though I'm happy for GH, peeps on this board would be screaming bloody murder if Periero had done the same thing and taken the stage from GH. This thread would be 40 pages long. Simple fact of life, even from a Lance admirer.

...I say I don't care that Valverde won that stage, but he did nothing better than George Hincapie...

geez i better change MY eye balls 'cause i didn't see Valverde sitting in a break for 100 k's... i could have sworn that break was only 10 k.

i'm watching it right now and you know what, Valverde did pull more that even I thought he did 9k to go Valverde does a real pull... Armstong goes to that back and then attacks from the back and since he came right from the back right after Valverde's pull it was probably meant to get rid of him... it doesn't though... Armstrong does his pull and Valverde actually goes though and takes another turn after Armstrong's attack... sh*t a few moments later rasmusen does about 5 seconds on the front and comes off and Valverde does another turn turn.. man if anything it's really rasmussen who's doggin it in this break... it's with 3 k to go Valverde starts thinking about the victory and Mancebo starts taking longer turns... Valverde does a soft pedal at the front with 2k's to go... another soft pedal with 1.5 k to go.. 1k to go and Armstrong is flicking his elbow... is he crazy? the sprint is about to start i wouldn't go to the front... you need the time, get your a** to the front and pull... but you know what everyone else refuses and it's Valverde that goes again

So.. yeah, reef58 you better get your eyes checked because Valverde does his share to establish the break and then with 3k to go Starts dogging it as he sets up for the sprint... along with everyone else except Armstrong.. but Armstrong needs the time so if he wants the time then get going

reef58 you're blind man!! :p

Ummm, and like I said in my other post (and others have mentioned), it wasn't the last few km's that Valverde sat on Mancebo's wheel, it was the whole damn break on a long mountaintop finish. Valverde took a FEW SMALL pulls. You defended this by saying that his teammate (Mancebo) being in the group made this OK. Go look at the tape, and I challenge you to tell me that Valverde was up front for even 1 minute of that very long climb. So, if you're going to hate on George, just be consistent, hate on Valverde as well. I'll choose to hate on neither.

i challenge you to tell me at what point in that break anyone in that break did a 1 minute pull... they were all doing about 10-30 sec max pulls... including armstrong...

they started setting up for the sprint with about 3 ks to go and i think this is the part that everyone including myself attributed to Valverde not taking his turn.. so watch the tape again... i told you exactly where Valverde takes pulls... you tell me at which points someone in that break does a 1 min pull... between 9 to 3 ks to go Valverde did his part to establish the break

The guy whose wheel crosses the line first wins, unless the judges relegate him. Argue the finer points all you wish, but each rider does either what he thinks will earn him the win or what the team manager says to do. They each steer, pedal, and navigate their own bicycles! It's always the guys that don't win that have the excuses.
Wouldn't it be nice for once if a rider that lost would just step forward and say,"I lost, plain and simple I lost, he outsmarted me, out rode me, out distanced me!"

geez i better change MY eye balls 'cause i didn't see Valverde sitting in a break for 100 k's... i could have sworn that break was only 10 k.

i'm watching it right now and you know what, Valverde did pull more that even I thought he did 9k to go Valverde does a real pull... Armstong goes to that back and then attacks from the back and since he came right from the back right after Valverde's pull it was probably meant to get rid of him... it doesn't though... Armstrong does his pull and Valverde actually goes though and takes another turn after Armstrong's attack... sh*t a few moments later rasmusen does about 5 seconds on the front and comes off and Valverde does another turn turn.. man if anything it's really rasmussen who's doggin it in this break... it's with 3 k to go Valverde starts thinking about the victory and Mancebo starts taking longer turns... Valverde does a soft pedal at the front with 2k's to go... another soft pedal with 1.5 k to go.. 1k to go and Armstrong is flicking his elbow... is he crazy? the sprint is about to start i wouldn't go to the front... you need the time, get your a** to the front and pull... but you know what everyone else refuses and it's Valverde that goes again

So.. yeah, reef58 you better get your eyes checked because Valverde does his share to establish the break and then with 3k to go Starts dogging it as he sets up for the sprint... along with everyone else except Armstrong.. but Armstrong needs the time so if he wants the time then get going

reef58 you're blind man!! :p

You might be right Doc. I have only watched the stage 6 or 7 times. Maybe I got the version where they edited all of Valverde's pulls. I do have a news flash though. It is a bike race. The key word is race. That means if someone is behind you that understands the concept of it being a race they will try to beat you to the line. I am surprised Perino doesn't understand that concept. I guess he thought Hincapie was out for a recovery ride, and just wanted company.

Richard

geez i better change MY eye balls 'cause i didn't see Valverde sitting in a break for 100 k's... i could have sworn that break was only 10 k.

i'm watching it right now and you know what, Valverde did pull more that even I thought he did 9k to go Valverde does a real pull... Armstong goes to that back and then attacks from the back and since he came right from the back right after Valverde's pull it was probably meant to get rid of him... it doesn't though... Armstrong does his pull and Valverde actually goes though and takes another turn after Armstrong's attack... sh*t a few moments later rasmusen does about 5 seconds on the front and comes off and Valverde does another turn turn.. man if anything it's really rasmussen who's doggin it in this break... it's with 3 k to go Valverde starts thinking about the victory and Mancebo starts taking longer turns... Valverde does a soft pedal at the front with 2k's to go... another soft pedal with 1.5 k to go.. 1k to go and Armstrong is flicking his elbow... is he crazy? the sprint is about to start i wouldn't go to the front... you need the time, get your a** to the front and pull... but you know what everyone else refuses and it's Valverde that goes again

So.. yeah, reef58 you better get your eyes checked because Valverde does his share to establish the break and then with 3k to go Starts dogging it as he sets up for the sprint... along with everyone else except Armstrong.. but Armstrong needs the time so if he wants the time then get going

reef58 you're blind man!! :p

I forgot to mention you are right. Valverde didn't suck wheel for 100k he sucked wheel for 205.3K.

Richard

Didn't Pereiro do today what Hincapie did on Sunday?


it sure seemed like the folks at OLN felt Pereiro did some wheel sucking. not as much as George but still hypocritical. later.

I forgot to mention you are right. Valverde didn't suck wheel for 100k he sucked wheel for 205.3K.

Richard

Yep, along with everone else in that group right? so as the break was establish we had a level playing field.

it sure seemed like the folks at OLN felt Pereiro did some wheel sucking. not as much as George but still hypocritical. later.

something ELSE that you guys don't seem to be understanding is that within the final few kms of a break the aliance of the members of the break disappears an riders start setting up for the sprint so they will slow down and start jockying for position... this day was no different with about 3k to go the same thing starts to happen... Cadel Evans needed the time to move up on GC and didn't care about the win so he was taking long hard pulls... Periero worked all day long, bridged a 6min gap to get into the group, flatted on the decent and got back on.. you cannot compare that to what Hincapie did... and the major point is that Evans didn't give a rat's a** about the win because he needed time to move up on GC, the others were interested in the stage win so they just followed

Pereiro should have tried to ditch Hincapie on the last climb, surely he knew what a good finisher George is! Bringing him to the finish in a armchair and slippers doesn't constitute good race tactics for Pereiro, he has himself to blame.

...The climbers should have gotten rid of all the excess baggage way before the finish. Pereiro should not have assumed that Hincapie was not going to go for the win. On courses favoring climbers, the climbers turn up the heat and drop the non-climbers; on courses favoring sprinters, the climbers go to the back of the rocketing peloton. When these don't happen, somebody didn't do their job!

you know i don't really disagree with you here, but it still doesn't excuse Hincapie's slimy tactics. you should always try and mitigate all possible threats but he was hanging on to a sliver of a lead and it sounded like Hincapie had agreed that he would work an then reneged on his commitment.. saying there was no room to pass when the road was only blocked for a small portion of the remaining race... i don't see any way around it Hincapie acted like a punk, slime ball on that stage and there will for ever be an asterisk beside that win because of that.

you should always try and mitigate all possible threats .... and it sounded like Hincapie had agreed that he would work an then reneged on his commitment.

I agree with you that you should always try and mitigate all possible threats. That's one of the responsibilities of anyone who is trying to win a race. It's because of that point that, to me, it was Pereiro who made the mistake that cost him the race. If you're commited to winning, never listen to a rider who says he's going to be nice to you when the moment comes where the race is on the line. Anyway, all this would be moot if Pereiro and his climbing friends had worked to get rid of Hincapie in the first place. If they did make an effort and Hincapie hung in there, then he deserves the win.

Doc, I agree that George had room to pass on a few occaions, but it didn't look like Periero ever slowed, moved over, of flicked an elbow either, He did turn to look at him a few times. So I wonder if he thought he was putting Hincapie in the Hurt Locker, only to realize too late that he didn't close the door.

Towards the final hour, It was given that the breakaway was no going to be caught... George, had he said that he would not pull and made it clear to Pereiro that it was up to him to keep the two chasers at bay, we wouldn't be talking about this... Did you even read Pereiros comments post race... About a little gentlemans agreement that they would work together...

I'm confused. So the issue here is that Hincapie didn't help pull in a huge crowd on a +7% gradient? Or that he didn't pull before the last climb?



Valverde did take a few small pulls and he had Mancebo working for him in the break so that excuses him from taking as many pulls as the others,

Few small pulls. Yes. He hardly did any work. Armstrong must have done at least %90 of the work.


with Hincapie the Punk sat in for over 100 km!!! when he was given the ok to ride for himself by Brunyeel... if you don't see that as a bu**sh*t win there is something wrong with you.

Riding for himself doesn't mean he isn't still a part of the team.



With Hincapie it's the exact opposite... in the begining team tactic dictated he not pull so he did no work for most of the race (fine nothing wrong with that). then when team tactics didn't matter any more he still sat in, then when race tactics dictated that he should help Pereiro he still sat in..

What race tactics dictated that he should have helped?



It's the fact that he did ABSOLUTELY nothing all day and there was nothing holding him back from participating in the second half of the race, he said that himself... that's what i have a problem with... it's scummy

Why should he have?

.................... But, don't take my word for it, take the word of more informed commentators...read the report. They know more than both of us!

OLN today, just minutes ago. The four commentators were discussing the Hincapie win. Three of the four (karstan, Roll, and Sherwin) agreed with Hincapie. Only Liggett seemed to think Pereiro had reason to be upset. The experts have spoken. There is 25% chance Pereiro was wronged, and 75% chance Hincapie rode a smart race.

I'm confused. So the issue here is that Hincapie didn't help pull in a huge crowd on a +7% gradient? Or that he didn't pull before the last climb?

[HE NEVER HELPED... EVER.. HE SAT ON ALL DAY... NADDA, NOTHING... that's the issue I have with Hincapie... what has happened to IQ levels in the last while?]

Why should he have?

Please don't ask me questions I have already answered in my post..

he doesn't have to do any work in a break. he can suck wheel all day long, 'til the cows come home... he also doesn't have to get any respect either... he can do what he wants... taking a victory like that is meaningless... and people will come down on him for it...

Valverde did what is done in a race. he worked in the break (i corrected myself... i watched the coverage again last night and Valverde worked way more than even i had thought he did)... then as is normally the case with about 2 k to go he and everyone else except Lance (who was after time) started jockying for postition for the stage win... other than Lance, Valverde did the next most work in that group, Rassmussen was dogging it the most... whatch the coverage again and look between 9 and 2 km to go... there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that... how does that compare to a guy who is in a break for 100kms and does nothing, gets in another break with Periero near the end and does nothing??1it doesn't...

he doesn't have to do any work in a break. he can suck wheel all day long, 'til the cows come home... he also doesn't have to get any respect either... he can do what he wants... taking a victory like that is meaningless... and people will come down on him for it...


Meaningless? Well, to you. But that isn't very relevant to Hincapie. How do you know the peloton will disrespect him and flick him now?

OLN today, just minutes ago. The four commentators were discussing the Hincapie win. Three of the four (karstan, Roll, and Sherwin) agreed with Hincapie. Only Liggett seemed to think Pereiro had reason to be upset. The experts have spoken. There is 25% chance Pereiro was wronged, and 75% chance Hincapie rode a smart race.

:roflmao:

Thanks for quoting me but my comment pertained to stage 10. I don't think Valverde had much of a role in Stage 15. ;) Are you still twitching?

:roflmao:

Thanks for quoting me but my comment pertained to stage 10. I don't think Valverde had much of a role in Stage 15. ;) Are you still twitching?

So you are just using the expert's opinions when they serve your purpose?

It's a tick, not a twitch.. I,I,I, th, th, th, think!!!!
:D

Don't expect the other guy to do your training for you.

So you are just using the expert's opinions when they serve your purpose?

It's a tick, not a twitch.. I,I,I, th, th, th, think!!!!
:D

Don't expect the other guy to do your training for you.

Uhhh, right. :rolleyes:

This from Pereiro after winning the next day's stage:

"I don't hold any grudge against George Hincapie personally. We're in a race called the Tour de France and a victory here just means a lot. The other day, I thought the only way to win was to arrive solo in the finish, as I knew he was fast. Then again, I didn't think that he'd still be that strong in the finale after holding on for so long. I was fooled..."

Pereiro should watch the highlights of today's stage. Savoldelli gave him a tutorial in how to make somebody work who's sucking your wheel and not pulling. (And Paolo still won.)

Pereiro should watch the highlights of today's stage. Savoldelli gave him a tutorial in how to make somebody work who's sucking your wheel and not pulling. (And Paolo still won.)

something tells me that if any of those guys had not worked for the entire duration of the break no tactical manoeuvring of Salvodelli would have got him the win

Whatever that something is.....is wrong. The peloton did not chase until the last climb, and they were long gone by then.