BNA roadie
07-13-05, 04:19 AM
Whose running a out-of-phase crank set up? any problems?
View Full Version : Out of phase cranks
landstander
07-13-05, 07:19 AM
Whose running a out-of-phase crank set up? any problems?
I've got a 2005 Raleigh Companion, which I ride with an autistic stoker. We recently had the cranks switched out-of-phase, and I'm really happy with the results. In particular, hill climbing is much smoother this way.
Absolutely no problems so far! :)
I've got a 2005 Raleigh Companion, which I ride with an autistic stoker. We recently had the cranks switched out-of-phase, and I'm really happy with the results. In particular, hill climbing is much smoother this way.
Absolutely no problems so far! :)
slagjumper
07-13-05, 08:02 AM
I have a burley Rock and Roll and the cranks are slightly out of phase. Works fine.
zonatandem
07-13-05, 08:22 PM
Have pedaled 90 degrees out of phase (OOP) for over 200,000 miles on our tandems.
Love it! Works great for us.
Zero problems.
Try it for a few weeks. Then U-2 decide . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Love it! Works great for us.
Zero problems.
Try it for a few weeks. Then U-2 decide . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
cornucopia72
07-14-05, 09:36 AM
Zonatandem:
Do you stand together?
Do you stand together?
zonatandem
07-14-05, 03:57 PM
No, we do not stand together. Easier climbing OOP, do not stand unless it's an emergency.
However, stoker and pilot can stand singly if needed. A bit more difficult for both to stand OOP . . . but have seen it done by only 2 couples.
However, stoker and pilot can stand singly if needed. A bit more difficult for both to stand OOP . . . but have seen it done by only 2 couples.
K&M
07-15-05, 12:38 PM
We don't currently have our cranks out of phase, but we tried it for a while and did feel that it improved the smoothness and power of our seated climbing. We only put them a little out of phase, as we didn't want to make standing too awkward or sacrifice too much cornering clearance. It didn't seem to affect our ability to stand smoothly at all (although had they been further out of phase I'm sure it would have).
stapfam
07-15-05, 03:35 PM
Have pedaled 90 degrees out of phase (OOP) for over 200,000 miles on our tandems.
Love it! Works great for us.
Zero problems.
Try it for a few weeks. Then U-2 decide . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
On wednesday we went for a ride with the cranks just slightly out of phase just to see what it is like. Didn't work for us at all and almost cut the ride short to change back. We carried on though, and both of us felt as though our knees had taken too much strain, as we were working off phase as well.
90 degrees might work, but after our experience on one ride, we'll stay in phase.
Love it! Works great for us.
Zero problems.
Try it for a few weeks. Then U-2 decide . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
On wednesday we went for a ride with the cranks just slightly out of phase just to see what it is like. Didn't work for us at all and almost cut the ride short to change back. We carried on though, and both of us felt as though our knees had taken too much strain, as we were working off phase as well.
90 degrees might work, but after our experience on one ride, we'll stay in phase.
zonatandem
07-15-05, 08:34 PM
We actually have the opposite feelings about OOP . . .
Have ridden several test tandems in-phase and had leg strain climbing. OOP . . . no such problems. Always having a power stroke going 'over the top' at 90 degreees OOP is definitely our preferred way.
. . . . at least there's choices!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Have ridden several test tandems in-phase and had leg strain climbing. OOP . . . no such problems. Always having a power stroke going 'over the top' at 90 degreees OOP is definitely our preferred way.
. . . . at least there's choices!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
bockwho
07-15-05, 09:48 PM
we are talking out of phase .. how much out of phase (90 45) I think this is something I would like to try. of course with her approval.
KB
KB
RJ_Mettlehorst
07-15-05, 11:00 PM
I have a burley Rock and Roll and the cranks are slightly out of phase. Works fine.
As a captain, I have the opposite opinion - even one tooth out of phase (stoker leading, at the moment - my unintentional screwup) really throws off our non-verbal communication. Even with a very low number miles as a team, we jelled exceptionally well. When I'm hesitating on beginning a mash on the pedals, the stoker gets to her "oh, we're going" point just before the captain intended to commit. This interferes with our graceful exit from a stoplight track stand.
We also start to fight each other very slightly when coasting - the angle isn't quite the same. We are very sensitive/picky about bike fit. Once dialed in, we notice the slightest change in adjustment.
When slightly out of phase, I really feel the push of my stoker as I'm about to push myself, and it causes hesitation on my part - "why did my pedal just move on it's own?". When we go back to perfectly in phase, I don't feel her efforts as much, but rather the bike does what I expect it to.
As always, however, if it works well for your team, just go with it.
As a captain, I have the opposite opinion - even one tooth out of phase (stoker leading, at the moment - my unintentional screwup) really throws off our non-verbal communication. Even with a very low number miles as a team, we jelled exceptionally well. When I'm hesitating on beginning a mash on the pedals, the stoker gets to her "oh, we're going" point just before the captain intended to commit. This interferes with our graceful exit from a stoplight track stand.
We also start to fight each other very slightly when coasting - the angle isn't quite the same. We are very sensitive/picky about bike fit. Once dialed in, we notice the slightest change in adjustment.
When slightly out of phase, I really feel the push of my stoker as I'm about to push myself, and it causes hesitation on my part - "why did my pedal just move on it's own?". When we go back to perfectly in phase, I don't feel her efforts as much, but rather the bike does what I expect it to.
As always, however, if it works well for your team, just go with it.
zonatandem
07-17-05, 05:28 PM
Any amount of out-of-phase is do-able.
However, for us, 90 degrees works best as there is aways a power stroke going 'over the top', either by stoker or pilot. Reduces flex on frame, avoids timing chain from popping off when hammering and, to us, feels smoother climbing + makes for quick get-away from traffic stops.
However, for us, 90 degrees works best as there is aways a power stroke going 'over the top', either by stoker or pilot. Reduces flex on frame, avoids timing chain from popping off when hammering and, to us, feels smoother climbing + makes for quick get-away from traffic stops.
cornucopia72
07-18-05, 09:33 AM
Zonatandem: We are thinking about trying OOP pedals. 90 degrees.... should we be concerned about hitting the pavement while cornering?
landstander
07-18-05, 09:44 AM
Zonatandem: We are thinking about trying OOP pedals. 90 degrees.... should we be concerned about hitting the pavement while cornering?
Ours have been 90 degrees OOP for about a month now. I had the same concern initially, but I'm happy to say that we've experienced absolutely no trouble so far. :)
Ours have been 90 degrees OOP for about a month now. I had the same concern initially, but I'm happy to say that we've experienced absolutely no trouble so far. :)
phil.
07-18-05, 01:12 PM
What's the best way to go from in phase to OOP? We've only had our tandem for about 3 months now and I haven't had to adjust tension on the timing chain yet. Is it easier to losen the EBB enough to derail the chain, adjust to OOP and then readjust the EBB? Or is it easy to just break the chain and then put back after adjusted to OOP? Seems like it would be hard to put the chain back together under tension but I've never tried.
Thanks for any help, I'm wanting to try OOP!
Thanks for any help, I'm wanting to try OOP!
TandemGeek
07-18-05, 02:09 PM
What's the best way to go from in phase to OOP?
Loosen the eccentric bottom bracket (EBB), and make your adjustments, then re-secure the EBB.
Note: With regard to setting the timing chain's tension, bolt-on timing rings don't always perfectly align with the spiders and if they're both off at the wrong place you can end up with the timing chain being too tight and alternatively too loose as the cranks go through a full rotation. This can make setting the timing chain tension a bit of a trick in that you need to catch it when it's at the tightest setting instead of the least tight to make sure it doesn't bind. Ideally, you should have about 1/2 of slack along the top of the timing chain run between the cranks and, keep in mind, when you tighten the eccentric the front axle will move forward 1mm - 2mm. Therefore, you'll want to get your chain's tension adjusted where you want it, and then you'll want to back-off of tension (rotate the eccentric) a little so that when you tighted up the eccentric the chain tension will be where you wanted it
Loosen the eccentric bottom bracket (EBB), and make your adjustments, then re-secure the EBB.
Note: With regard to setting the timing chain's tension, bolt-on timing rings don't always perfectly align with the spiders and if they're both off at the wrong place you can end up with the timing chain being too tight and alternatively too loose as the cranks go through a full rotation. This can make setting the timing chain tension a bit of a trick in that you need to catch it when it's at the tightest setting instead of the least tight to make sure it doesn't bind. Ideally, you should have about 1/2 of slack along the top of the timing chain run between the cranks and, keep in mind, when you tighten the eccentric the front axle will move forward 1mm - 2mm. Therefore, you'll want to get your chain's tension adjusted where you want it, and then you'll want to back-off of tension (rotate the eccentric) a little so that when you tighted up the eccentric the chain tension will be where you wanted it
zonatandem
07-21-05, 08:38 PM
Landstander:
Unless you are racing and lay one hell of a hard corner you'll not hit the pavement. But, watch it coasting over some of these super high old fashioned speedbumps!
Phil:
Changing to OOP, is as suggested by Mark.
However, there is a quicker 'non-recommended' way: Derail chain by pedaling backwards while using a thin bladed screwdriver to derail chain off chainring. Set pedals up 90 degrees OOP; Put chain on one chainring, have someone lift rear wheel and pedal forward while popping chain on other chainring. Will work in 99% of the cases.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Unless you are racing and lay one hell of a hard corner you'll not hit the pavement. But, watch it coasting over some of these super high old fashioned speedbumps!
Phil:
Changing to OOP, is as suggested by Mark.
However, there is a quicker 'non-recommended' way: Derail chain by pedaling backwards while using a thin bladed screwdriver to derail chain off chainring. Set pedals up 90 degrees OOP; Put chain on one chainring, have someone lift rear wheel and pedal forward while popping chain on other chainring. Will work in 99% of the cases.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
ricardo kuhn
07-21-05, 10:11 PM
so any of you "teams" ride in the Dirt with this set up..
I have about 13' Bottom brackets and i still hit rocks and stuff all the time, i can not thing what will happend if we got a pedal stuck on something..
the concept is interesting for sure but sounds almost impossible to be used in the dirt..
actually I'm almost ready for a "Da-vinci" retrofit on my ibis in hope of increase chain ground clearance..
Oh another way to change the face on the cranks is to take the bolts of the chainrings and spin the cranks as many deggres as you need,,oviuslly 5 biolt cranks will not give you 90 but the FOUR bolt cranks are perfect..
anyway to increase longevity on the chainring i find over the years that is a great idea to rotate the chainrings (on the cranks) so they wear more evenlly, just another South American trick
I have about 13' Bottom brackets and i still hit rocks and stuff all the time, i can not thing what will happend if we got a pedal stuck on something..
the concept is interesting for sure but sounds almost impossible to be used in the dirt..
actually I'm almost ready for a "Da-vinci" retrofit on my ibis in hope of increase chain ground clearance..
Oh another way to change the face on the cranks is to take the bolts of the chainrings and spin the cranks as many deggres as you need,,oviuslly 5 biolt cranks will not give you 90 but the FOUR bolt cranks are perfect..
anyway to increase longevity on the chainring i find over the years that is a great idea to rotate the chainrings (on the cranks) so they wear more evenlly, just another South American trick
Brian
07-22-05, 02:01 AM
If we're not perfectly matched in leg strength, would going out of phase help us?
TandemGeek
07-22-05, 04:19 AM
so any of you "teams" ride in the Dirt with this set up.
Absolutely not... with one exception; daVinci's ICS.
Let me elaborate: If your off-road riding is limited to forest service roads and non-technical trails where you will not encounter any obstacles, it's probably not a big deal. However, for those who ride technical terrain and single-track, having the cranks out of phase presents some serious safety concerns for the Stoker's feet. While there are some teams who will put the cranks one or two teeth out of phase, once you get beyond that you run a very high risk of driving your stoker's feet into logs, rocks, trees and other obstacles commonly found on the trail. While it's possible that a captain "could" have enough mental capacity to constantly remind himself of his stoker's pedal positions and remind himself to position the cranks to keep their feet clear of obstacles, my personal view is that anyone who has learned to ride single track on a personal bike will fall victim to "instinctive habits" that even make remembering in-phase crank positioning a challenge with regard modifying your ratcheting technique when grinding over logs, dropping over berms, or delaying the restart of pedalling when cornering around trees or stumps, anyone of which could slam a stoker's foot into the obstacle.
daVinci's independent coasting system -- which permits the captain and stoker to stop pedalling or to back-pedal independent of each other -- puts the burden of proper crank placement on the stoker AND has the added benefit of allowing the stoker's pedal to "give" and move backward if it does strike an obstacle. Therefore, for teams who master the ICS, they can choose to ride out-of-phase on the climbs too smooth out the delivery of power to the rear wheel and then adjust to either in-phase when slaloming through the trees, with the stoker adjusting their crank position as needed based on the captain calling out obstacles and/or anticipating the appropriate crank position when negotiating obstacles.
Absolutely not... with one exception; daVinci's ICS.
Let me elaborate: If your off-road riding is limited to forest service roads and non-technical trails where you will not encounter any obstacles, it's probably not a big deal. However, for those who ride technical terrain and single-track, having the cranks out of phase presents some serious safety concerns for the Stoker's feet. While there are some teams who will put the cranks one or two teeth out of phase, once you get beyond that you run a very high risk of driving your stoker's feet into logs, rocks, trees and other obstacles commonly found on the trail. While it's possible that a captain "could" have enough mental capacity to constantly remind himself of his stoker's pedal positions and remind himself to position the cranks to keep their feet clear of obstacles, my personal view is that anyone who has learned to ride single track on a personal bike will fall victim to "instinctive habits" that even make remembering in-phase crank positioning a challenge with regard modifying your ratcheting technique when grinding over logs, dropping over berms, or delaying the restart of pedalling when cornering around trees or stumps, anyone of which could slam a stoker's foot into the obstacle.
daVinci's independent coasting system -- which permits the captain and stoker to stop pedalling or to back-pedal independent of each other -- puts the burden of proper crank placement on the stoker AND has the added benefit of allowing the stoker's pedal to "give" and move backward if it does strike an obstacle. Therefore, for teams who master the ICS, they can choose to ride out-of-phase on the climbs too smooth out the delivery of power to the rear wheel and then adjust to either in-phase when slaloming through the trees, with the stoker adjusting their crank position as needed based on the captain calling out obstacles and/or anticipating the appropriate crank position when negotiating obstacles.
ricardo kuhn
07-22-05, 09:31 AM
Absolutely not... with one exception; daVinci's ICS.
Let me elaborate: If your off-road riding is limited to forest service roads and non-technical trails where you will not encounter any obstacles, it's probably not a big deal. However, for those who ride technical terrain and single-track, having the cranks out of phase presents some serious safety concerns for the Stoker's feet. While there are some teams who will put the cranks one or two teeth out of phase, once you get beyond that you run a very high risk of driving your stoker's feet into logs, rocks, trees and other obstacles commonly found on the trail. While it's possible that a captain "could" have enough mental capacity to constantly remind himself of his stoker's pedal positions and remind himself to position the cranks to keep their feet clear of obstacles, my personal view is that anyone who has learned to ride single track on a personal bike will fall victim to "instinctive habits" that even make remembering in-phase crank positioning a challenge with regard modifying your ratcheting technique when grinding over logs, dropping over berms, or delaying the restart of pedalling when cornering around trees or stumps, anyone of which could slam a stoker's foot into the obstacle.
Exactlly what i was thinking,,,,,
I ride my tandem on the same trails I ride my single bikes(sometimes even full suspensions,,,even my Nicolai M-pire with 9" of travel,,I just go much slower at least sometimes) some of them are pretty dificult even on a single bike, most of the time extremlly Narrow singletracks (2 feet wide at most) and for sure Logs, rocks, branches and even some jumps are a dailly occurance (a.k.a. many times X ride...)
i was just wondering if anybody use their bike for agresive dirt riding, but i'm also fully aware of the risk involve so i just want to clarified...
actually on a related topic, the Off face cranks is pretty similar to a internal conbustion engine and the many diferent configurations that can be achive, even if on a bicycle the pedaling forces are some how rounder a "power stroke" still kind of present at least at slow crank rotations or when high power output is require...
a few Inline twin motorcycles use a 90 deggre crank configuration, not to mension the V-twins with the diferent deggres, (from 52 to almost 70 in some cases, or the "Boxer" type with a 180 deggre (also Porche and subaru) were the torque delivery is sustancial and the vibration is some how keep to a minimum,,oviuslly is a big diference in between 90 revolutions and 9000 RPm but still a interesting comparation.
daVinci's independent coasting system -- which permits the captain and stoker to stop pedalling or to back-pedal independent of each other -- puts the burden of proper crank placement on the stoker AND has the added benefit of allowing the stoker's pedal to "give" and move backward if it does strike an obstacle. Therefore, for teams who master the ICS, they can choose to ride out-of-phase on the climbs too smooth out the delivery of power to the rear wheel and then adjust to either in-phase when slaloming through the trees, with the stoker adjusting their crank position as needed based on the captain calling out obstacles and/or anticipating the appropriate crank position when negotiating obstacles.
Well I have my issues with that sistem too...I be to scare for my partner to not see a obstacle,,hell sometimes even the captain can not see them in time...
in fact I'm trying to develope some kind of "Clutch" that will let me engage the freewheels to become "FiX" with minimal work (Ideally a lever at the bars) so i can attemp dificult sections ussing the cranks in face and on the easy stuff let them act independentlly....
I already have some "dual porpuse" suntour freewhels that provide that dutty ussing engagement "set screws"(little rods that lock the outside body in place in relationship to the main body) but the solution is crude and somehow chessy...
will see i being know to come up with concepts like that before, in fact is what i do for a living but more than anything i just love the challenge and the adventure of discovery..also if anybody is aware of a sistem that provides this "Locking function" will be nice to see how they acomplish it ...(maybe subject for another topic)
thanks as ussual for the elaborate and competent answers
Let me elaborate: If your off-road riding is limited to forest service roads and non-technical trails where you will not encounter any obstacles, it's probably not a big deal. However, for those who ride technical terrain and single-track, having the cranks out of phase presents some serious safety concerns for the Stoker's feet. While there are some teams who will put the cranks one or two teeth out of phase, once you get beyond that you run a very high risk of driving your stoker's feet into logs, rocks, trees and other obstacles commonly found on the trail. While it's possible that a captain "could" have enough mental capacity to constantly remind himself of his stoker's pedal positions and remind himself to position the cranks to keep their feet clear of obstacles, my personal view is that anyone who has learned to ride single track on a personal bike will fall victim to "instinctive habits" that even make remembering in-phase crank positioning a challenge with regard modifying your ratcheting technique when grinding over logs, dropping over berms, or delaying the restart of pedalling when cornering around trees or stumps, anyone of which could slam a stoker's foot into the obstacle.
Exactlly what i was thinking,,,,,
I ride my tandem on the same trails I ride my single bikes(sometimes even full suspensions,,,even my Nicolai M-pire with 9" of travel,,I just go much slower at least sometimes) some of them are pretty dificult even on a single bike, most of the time extremlly Narrow singletracks (2 feet wide at most) and for sure Logs, rocks, branches and even some jumps are a dailly occurance (a.k.a. many times X ride...)
i was just wondering if anybody use their bike for agresive dirt riding, but i'm also fully aware of the risk involve so i just want to clarified...
actually on a related topic, the Off face cranks is pretty similar to a internal conbustion engine and the many diferent configurations that can be achive, even if on a bicycle the pedaling forces are some how rounder a "power stroke" still kind of present at least at slow crank rotations or when high power output is require...
a few Inline twin motorcycles use a 90 deggre crank configuration, not to mension the V-twins with the diferent deggres, (from 52 to almost 70 in some cases, or the "Boxer" type with a 180 deggre (also Porche and subaru) were the torque delivery is sustancial and the vibration is some how keep to a minimum,,oviuslly is a big diference in between 90 revolutions and 9000 RPm but still a interesting comparation.
daVinci's independent coasting system -- which permits the captain and stoker to stop pedalling or to back-pedal independent of each other -- puts the burden of proper crank placement on the stoker AND has the added benefit of allowing the stoker's pedal to "give" and move backward if it does strike an obstacle. Therefore, for teams who master the ICS, they can choose to ride out-of-phase on the climbs too smooth out the delivery of power to the rear wheel and then adjust to either in-phase when slaloming through the trees, with the stoker adjusting their crank position as needed based on the captain calling out obstacles and/or anticipating the appropriate crank position when negotiating obstacles.
Well I have my issues with that sistem too...I be to scare for my partner to not see a obstacle,,hell sometimes even the captain can not see them in time...
in fact I'm trying to develope some kind of "Clutch" that will let me engage the freewheels to become "FiX" with minimal work (Ideally a lever at the bars) so i can attemp dificult sections ussing the cranks in face and on the easy stuff let them act independentlly....
I already have some "dual porpuse" suntour freewhels that provide that dutty ussing engagement "set screws"(little rods that lock the outside body in place in relationship to the main body) but the solution is crude and somehow chessy...
will see i being know to come up with concepts like that before, in fact is what i do for a living but more than anything i just love the challenge and the adventure of discovery..also if anybody is aware of a sistem that provides this "Locking function" will be nice to see how they acomplish it ...(maybe subject for another topic)
thanks as ussual for the elaborate and competent answers
zonatandem
07-22-05, 04:02 PM
Definitely not being an off-roadie, we have tested Mt. bike tandems off-road (single track, not forest trails), and agree 100% that pedaling OOP would be a problem.
The daVinci system is the closest to being able to pedal OOP (when desired) off-road; stoker would have to be very aware, or see, the line the captain is picking, which could be rather difficult.
OOP, basically, is a roadie option.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
The daVinci system is the closest to being able to pedal OOP (when desired) off-road; stoker would have to be very aware, or see, the line the captain is picking, which could be rather difficult.
OOP, basically, is a roadie option.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Engraver
07-25-05, 12:04 PM
I'm a pretty new Greenspeed GTT rider. My wife and I started in phase, but then switched to 90 OOP. We like riding OOP much better. It's a smoother ride, and balancing the load on the rear wheel makes shifting much easier.
I can imagine how OOP could be a problem on an upright bike, but it is wonderful on a recumbent trike.!
I can imagine how OOP could be a problem on an upright bike, but it is wonderful on a recumbent trike.!
lmzimmer
07-27-05, 07:36 PM
Just tried 90 degrees OOP today for the first time- as captain I really liked it- much smoother and better climbing in the saddle- noticeably less frame flex. We do not climb out of the saddle at the same time but when I stood again less frame wobble. Starting does take a bit more coordination. By the way Zonztzndems screwdriver sugestion worked very well- no need to mess with the eccentric.
TandemGeek
07-27-05, 09:38 PM
By the way Zonztzndems screwdriver sugestion worked very well- no need to mess with the eccentric.
For those who opt to use this method of chain removal let me recommend that you run a little extra slack in your timing chain such that you can derail the chain by pulling it away from the front timing ring as you rotate the cranks, i.e., it can be removed and reinstalled by hand and without the aid of a lever.
If the chain is too tight and a lever is used you stand a good chance of "tweaking" a chain link or nicking the teeth on your chain rings. Nicking the rings isn't a big deal but weakening a rivet on your chain can come back and bite you out on the road where you may or may not have all the tools you need to splice in a link if your timing chain comes apart.
FWIW: We run both our road and off-road tandems with enough slack (3/4") to do this "by-hand" removal of the timing chains and have never thrown the timing chain as a result of carrying this extra slack. However, when time is not of the essense and when doing periodic bike maintenance I will usually loosen the eccentric to remove the timing chains OR -- noting that we have self-extracting crank axle bolts on our road tandems -- I'll simply remove the front crank to get the chain off. In any event, the point is to make sure that you don't forget to service your eccentric now and again if you do find that you can remove your timing chain without loosening the eccentric.
For those who opt to use this method of chain removal let me recommend that you run a little extra slack in your timing chain such that you can derail the chain by pulling it away from the front timing ring as you rotate the cranks, i.e., it can be removed and reinstalled by hand and without the aid of a lever.
If the chain is too tight and a lever is used you stand a good chance of "tweaking" a chain link or nicking the teeth on your chain rings. Nicking the rings isn't a big deal but weakening a rivet on your chain can come back and bite you out on the road where you may or may not have all the tools you need to splice in a link if your timing chain comes apart.
FWIW: We run both our road and off-road tandems with enough slack (3/4") to do this "by-hand" removal of the timing chains and have never thrown the timing chain as a result of carrying this extra slack. However, when time is not of the essense and when doing periodic bike maintenance I will usually loosen the eccentric to remove the timing chains OR -- noting that we have self-extracting crank axle bolts on our road tandems -- I'll simply remove the front crank to get the chain off. In any event, the point is to make sure that you don't forget to service your eccentric now and again if you do find that you can remove your timing chain without loosening the eccentric.
zonatandem
07-28-05, 03:58 PM
Expatriate:
Yes, pedaling OOP is for folks that do not have matching leg power input . . . it works equally well for matched power outputs. Try it . . . you might like it!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Yes, pedaling OOP is for folks that do not have matching leg power input . . . it works equally well for matched power outputs. Try it . . . you might like it!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Mardi Gras Man
08-04-05, 08:11 PM
OK I have been following this for awhile and had to try it. So we opted for oop by 45%. We loved it and we picked up 2mph on our average. Now the question???? I put the stoker leading. What do you think? My thinking was the boost coming over the top would set me up to take full advantage of the power section of my stroke.
Michel Gagnon
08-04-05, 08:58 PM
I don't think there is any real theory on Out of phase vs In phase. So do what works for you.
In our case, we are out of phase, with my stoker-daughter leading me by 2 or 3 links. The reason : she doesn't quite pedal in circles and when in phase, it did hurt my knees when she was at the bottom of her stroke and the pedals slowed significantly. Now, it happens when I am in my optimal phase, so pedalling is smooth.
In our case, we are out of phase, with my stoker-daughter leading me by 2 or 3 links. The reason : she doesn't quite pedal in circles and when in phase, it did hurt my knees when she was at the bottom of her stroke and the pedals slowed significantly. Now, it happens when I am in my optimal phase, so pedalling is smooth.
Roadie Rob
08-07-05, 09:06 PM
I'm with Michael on this one. My wife does not pedal smooth strokes but rather "mashes" down the main strokes. We tried OOP the last 2 rides and felt the bike launching after each stroke (me more than her since she was the "launcher") - not smooth at all.
I can see the benefit when 2 riders are more in-sych or have smooth solo strokes to begin with, but for novices, I recommend in-pahes. I switched back to in-phase 30 miles into our ride today and we felt the difference - smoother overall since my crank evened out her "mash".
Got to love easy sliding eccentrics with 5mm bolts. Took about 5 minutes on the side of the road to adjust.
I can see the benefit when 2 riders are more in-sych or have smooth solo strokes to begin with, but for novices, I recommend in-pahes. I switched back to in-phase 30 miles into our ride today and we felt the difference - smoother overall since my crank evened out her "mash".
Got to love easy sliding eccentrics with 5mm bolts. Took about 5 minutes on the side of the road to adjust.
ElRey
08-12-05, 08:44 AM
I too am concerned about dragging a pedal through a turn if I go OOP: I'm so used to getting my inside foot "up" that I would no dobt make an error. Also have had no trouble being in-phase so will probably keep it that way.
Murrays
08-12-05, 10:31 AM
I too am concerned about dragging a pedal through a turn if I go OOP: I'm so used to getting my inside foot "up" that I would no dobt make an error. Also have had no trouble being in-phase so will probably keep it that way.
The thing is, if you were 90 deg OOP, your stoker would have horizontal cranks while your inside foot was up. If you can touch a horizontal crank to the pavement while cornering, you're a far better bike handler tham me :eek:
-murray
The thing is, if you were 90 deg OOP, your stoker would have horizontal cranks while your inside foot was up. If you can touch a horizontal crank to the pavement while cornering, you're a far better bike handler tham me :eek:
-murray
chuckfox
08-21-05, 09:51 PM
I've been watching this topic and yesterday evening we tried 90 degrees out of phase cranks. It was fantastic! Seemed like we were much smoother. The spin was easier with my wife's stroke pushing my pedals through the top. She typically doesn't stand to crank, athough I do--standing seemed to work out just fine as well, she remained seated and I stood when needed. Thanks for the advice posted here, we are going to stick with the 90 degrees out for a while, maybe permanently.
phil.
08-23-05, 02:44 PM
Zonatandem - That tip is great! I tried it and I can adjust the phase in like 1 minute! You want to hear something really sad? The first tandem we test rode was a raleight flat bar road bike thing, well it took FOREVER for the shop to get it ready for us to ride even though I called ahead, I looked over and they had taken off a cranks to set the pedals in phase! I kept my mouth shut b/c I had never adjusted an EBB yet.
On another OOP note. My wife hasn't liked our two test rides so far OOP, says she doesn't feel like she can pedal as hard. I took a look and saw that I had set it up so my pedal was always leading. I'm guess I was just pulling her foot over the top before she could put power down. I've switched it so she has the leading pedals and see how she feels about that. Thanks to the screwdirver tip I can change easily and quickly mid ride if she wants to go back in phase.
Phil:
Changing to OOP, is as suggested by Mark.
However, there is a quicker 'non-recommended' way: Derail chain by pedaling backwards while using a thin bladed screwdriver to derail chain off chainring. Set pedals up 90 degrees OOP; Put chain on one chainring, have someone lift rear wheel and pedal forward while popping chain on other chainring. Will work in 99% of the cases.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
On another OOP note. My wife hasn't liked our two test rides so far OOP, says she doesn't feel like she can pedal as hard. I took a look and saw that I had set it up so my pedal was always leading. I'm guess I was just pulling her foot over the top before she could put power down. I've switched it so she has the leading pedals and see how she feels about that. Thanks to the screwdirver tip I can change easily and quickly mid ride if she wants to go back in phase.
Phil:
Changing to OOP, is as suggested by Mark.
However, there is a quicker 'non-recommended' way: Derail chain by pedaling backwards while using a thin bladed screwdriver to derail chain off chainring. Set pedals up 90 degrees OOP; Put chain on one chainring, have someone lift rear wheel and pedal forward while popping chain on other chainring. Will work in 99% of the cases.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
larrydj
08-23-05, 11:02 PM
I noticed that our two cranks are slightly out of phase, due to there being a finite number of teeth on each crank, and their positions. If so, is it better to have the captain's pedal phase slightly ahead or behind the stoker's? Or does it matter?
gregm
08-24-05, 12:18 AM
I noticed that our two cranks are slightly out of phase, due to there being a finite number of teeth on each crank, and their positions.
Note that if you have regular five-bolt rings for your timing side, you have available to you five different relative tooth offsets as you rotate a timing chainring... unless you have some wacky evenly-divisible-by-five number of teeth (like 35T) on your timing chainrings! You should be able to match the phases to within a few percent, especially if you fiddle with both of them.
-Greg
Note that if you have regular five-bolt rings for your timing side, you have available to you five different relative tooth offsets as you rotate a timing chainring... unless you have some wacky evenly-divisible-by-five number of teeth (like 35T) on your timing chainrings! You should be able to match the phases to within a few percent, especially if you fiddle with both of them.
-Greg
TandemGeek
08-24-05, 06:13 AM
I noticed that our two cranks are slightly out of phase, due to there being a finite number of teeth on each crank, and their positions. If so, is it better to have the captain's pedal phase slightly ahead or behind the stoker's? Or does it matter?
Captain leading/ahead should be the norm for most average teams who ride in-phase. However, like out-of-phase, sometimes it's not a bad idea to play around with different configurations to see what works best for your team. In some respects, having the stoker's cranks leading for a stoker who also rides their own 1/2 bike could help them "feel" their pedal strokes better than being perfectly in-phase or trailing which could help them gauge their effort.
Back to chain ring alignment, it's not essential but if you're really anal about such things, here's how to address it from a previous post:
When installing or re-installing timing chain rings, make sure that you get the rings properly aligned such that that the teeth are all in phase: keeping the manufacturers ring marks (brand names, tooth numbers, etc..) aligned usually accomplishes this. You'll also want to try and get the chain rings centered on the spiders to remove any biopacing / cam action from your timing chain tension. Bolt-on timing rings don't always perfectly align with the spiders and if they're both off at the wrong place you can end up with the timing chain being too tight and alternatively too loose as the cranks go through a full rotation. This can make setting the timing chain tension a bit of a trick in that you need to catch it when it's at the tightest setting instead of the least tight to make sure it doesn't bind.
You'll find some other timing chain tips worth reading here: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/synchain.html
Captain leading/ahead should be the norm for most average teams who ride in-phase. However, like out-of-phase, sometimes it's not a bad idea to play around with different configurations to see what works best for your team. In some respects, having the stoker's cranks leading for a stoker who also rides their own 1/2 bike could help them "feel" their pedal strokes better than being perfectly in-phase or trailing which could help them gauge their effort.
Back to chain ring alignment, it's not essential but if you're really anal about such things, here's how to address it from a previous post:
When installing or re-installing timing chain rings, make sure that you get the rings properly aligned such that that the teeth are all in phase: keeping the manufacturers ring marks (brand names, tooth numbers, etc..) aligned usually accomplishes this. You'll also want to try and get the chain rings centered on the spiders to remove any biopacing / cam action from your timing chain tension. Bolt-on timing rings don't always perfectly align with the spiders and if they're both off at the wrong place you can end up with the timing chain being too tight and alternatively too loose as the cranks go through a full rotation. This can make setting the timing chain tension a bit of a trick in that you need to catch it when it's at the tightest setting instead of the least tight to make sure it doesn't bind.
You'll find some other timing chain tips worth reading here: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/synchain.html
TandemGeek
08-27-05, 09:07 PM
there is a quicker 'non-recommended' way: Derail chain by pedaling backwards while using a thin bladed screwdriver to derail chain off chainring. Set pedals up 90 degrees OOP; Put chain on one chainring, have someone lift rear wheel and pedal forward while popping chain on other chainring. Will work in 99% of the cases.
I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread but it warrants repeating.
You can actually set the tension loose enough to make derailling possible without the screwdriver and still not be at risk of unintentionally throwing the chain... something more along the lines of 3/4" to 1" vs. the normally recommended 1/2" of slack. Just grab the chain on the lower run about 5" behind the captain's crank, pull down to collect all the slack from the top and bottom, and then pull away from the chainring while backpedaling as Rudy already mentioned. The "trick" is getting the chain off without nicking a chain ring tooth, which is easy to do when removing or re-installing a chain that's just a little too tight. Using a screw driver or anything else that adds mechanical leverage can increase the possibility of doing some damage that wouldn't be possible -- or at least as easy to do -- when working to pull off by hand.
Two other data points on this topic:
1. The reason I don't usually suggest this right off the bat is because of two things: The first is, it's important for everyone to learn how to adjust their eccentric and how to get the proper tension in their timing chain BEFORE leaning on the shortcut: noting that most folks who spend any time working on their eccentric will quickly figure out that they can use a little extra slack to perform the "short-cut" removal or reinstallation. The second is, you can get in trouble doing this if you don't have enough slack by damaging a chain, nicking chainring teeth, or getting the chain wedged in between the crankarm and chainring, or if you have way too much slack and unintentionally throw a chain.
2. Unless you use a hot paraffin wax lube like some anal-retentive geeks or make a habit of wiping down your chains after each ride, you'll end up some really messy hands after grabbing hold of your timing chains. So, short of converting to hot paraffin wax, you can really cut down on the amount of grime that you'll find on your chains and, in turn, on your chainrings and sprockets by making a point of wiping down your chains after each ride. It just takes a second to backpedal the cranks a few times with your right hand while running the chains through a terry cloth "grime cloth" held in your left hand. Now, if you don't want to do this and do end up getting your hands covered in grime, here's another tip: sunblock is a great hand degreaser. Keep a small tube in your saddle bag or rear jersey pocket and you'll always have the ability to clean you hands up after doing some field adjustments or repairs on the drive train. Of course, if you don't have at least some black panels on your cycling shorts, you may not have a place to wipe your hands.
I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread but it warrants repeating.
You can actually set the tension loose enough to make derailling possible without the screwdriver and still not be at risk of unintentionally throwing the chain... something more along the lines of 3/4" to 1" vs. the normally recommended 1/2" of slack. Just grab the chain on the lower run about 5" behind the captain's crank, pull down to collect all the slack from the top and bottom, and then pull away from the chainring while backpedaling as Rudy already mentioned. The "trick" is getting the chain off without nicking a chain ring tooth, which is easy to do when removing or re-installing a chain that's just a little too tight. Using a screw driver or anything else that adds mechanical leverage can increase the possibility of doing some damage that wouldn't be possible -- or at least as easy to do -- when working to pull off by hand.
Two other data points on this topic:
1. The reason I don't usually suggest this right off the bat is because of two things: The first is, it's important for everyone to learn how to adjust their eccentric and how to get the proper tension in their timing chain BEFORE leaning on the shortcut: noting that most folks who spend any time working on their eccentric will quickly figure out that they can use a little extra slack to perform the "short-cut" removal or reinstallation. The second is, you can get in trouble doing this if you don't have enough slack by damaging a chain, nicking chainring teeth, or getting the chain wedged in between the crankarm and chainring, or if you have way too much slack and unintentionally throw a chain.
2. Unless you use a hot paraffin wax lube like some anal-retentive geeks or make a habit of wiping down your chains after each ride, you'll end up some really messy hands after grabbing hold of your timing chains. So, short of converting to hot paraffin wax, you can really cut down on the amount of grime that you'll find on your chains and, in turn, on your chainrings and sprockets by making a point of wiping down your chains after each ride. It just takes a second to backpedal the cranks a few times with your right hand while running the chains through a terry cloth "grime cloth" held in your left hand. Now, if you don't want to do this and do end up getting your hands covered in grime, here's another tip: sunblock is a great hand degreaser. Keep a small tube in your saddle bag or rear jersey pocket and you'll always have the ability to clean you hands up after doing some field adjustments or repairs on the drive train. Of course, if you don't have at least some black panels on your cycling shorts, you may not have a place to wipe your hands.
bockwho
08-28-05, 07:56 PM
we did it today. ... I have my chain set up as above .. where I can adjust the crank phase by peeling it off I only found this out the other day in the jeep w/ tandem and I bounced over some tracks and the timming chain fell off (after we had ridden 40 miles on it).
here are our findings ...
90 degrees no way too much wiggling around we tried this up and down a small hill about 2 miles total the power strokes were too spread out.
10 to 45 degrees @ (turing when I would have the inside pedal up she would be flat in the back.) this was a bit anoying when trying to strech
I am the dominate rider Jennifer (my wife is the newbe to cycling)
I set my crank up so that I was in the upper dead zone. just after my power stroke on the other pedal and her same side pedal was starting / just into her power stroke on the same side. and of course the same on the other side. less than 40 was working better .. our cadince sayed about the same at 84 rpm but our climbing (rollers here in east coweta) was 100% better It seems we were a little restricted on our top speed but we were on a new course.
by using her to pull you thru the dead zone and to start you in your power stroke with great momentum.
it is also important to note that she is on a softride and has just started with spd's I am still on platform I hope to upgrade the looks on my single so the old ones will get put on the tandem. in a month or so.
Kelsey
here are our findings ...
90 degrees no way too much wiggling around we tried this up and down a small hill about 2 miles total the power strokes were too spread out.
10 to 45 degrees @ (turing when I would have the inside pedal up she would be flat in the back.) this was a bit anoying when trying to strech
I am the dominate rider Jennifer (my wife is the newbe to cycling)
I set my crank up so that I was in the upper dead zone. just after my power stroke on the other pedal and her same side pedal was starting / just into her power stroke on the same side. and of course the same on the other side. less than 40 was working better .. our cadince sayed about the same at 84 rpm but our climbing (rollers here in east coweta) was 100% better It seems we were a little restricted on our top speed but we were on a new course.
by using her to pull you thru the dead zone and to start you in your power stroke with great momentum.
it is also important to note that she is on a softride and has just started with spd's I am still on platform I hope to upgrade the looks on my single so the old ones will get put on the tandem. in a month or so.
Kelsey
zonatandem
04-12-08, 09:57 PM
Funny! Anal retentive geeks use hot parrafin wax??
Yup, guilty of using hot parrafin wax for the past 30-some years to lube our chains.
Yup, guilty of pedaling OOP for 200,000+ miles.
We don't care what it's called . . . we like it - we do it!
Pedal on TWOgether!
RUdy and Kay/zonatandem
Yup, guilty of using hot parrafin wax for the past 30-some years to lube our chains.
Yup, guilty of pedaling OOP for 200,000+ miles.
We don't care what it's called . . . we like it - we do it!
Pedal on TWOgether!
RUdy and Kay/zonatandem
dvs cycles
04-13-08, 09:35 AM
What prompted the resurection of this old thread?
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