Advocacy & Safety - Mopeds on Bike Paths

Well on my way into work today, I caught a moped on the trail, I told him to get off the trail he didn't say a word and keeped going, I turn around to get his plate number but he quicly made a get away at high speed. This is the second time that I have seen the same guy. When I have the day off I think I going to bring my camra to get him. This was at 6:00 am on the Captial City Bike Path, by Jon Nolen Dr. (Madison, WI). The first time was at 4:00 pm on my way home, looks like he has the same time frame as me.

Anyone has anymore ideas to help me?

Thanks,

GEEK

I would just take the picture and mail it to the police, if I am right bike paths are just another form of a limited access highway, but instead of only moter veicals alowed they are prohibited, and only non-moter veicals are alowed. Also make sure to turn on the feature where the time and date will be stamped onto the picture also.

Increasing numbers of motorized vehicles are appearing on multi-use paths in my hood.. First it was kids on electric scooters, them gas scooters. Last week I almost got smoked by this lady using a golf-cart type thing to carry her and her kids at high speed around a corner.

As people get lazier and lazier, it should come as no suprise that even urban recreation has to be motorized. And of course if someone can cut down their commute time, anything is fair game for them.

$70 fine for first offense in Beaufort County, SC. Double fine for 2nd offense, confiscation of offending equipment and $400 fine for the 3rd offense.

This is somewhat mean-spirited but I have the same problem with people in motorized wheelchairs. What about "no motorized vehicles" is unclear? There ARE non-motorized wheelchairs... I can only imagine the squawking if anyone ever complained though.

I don't really have much problem with electric motors since they tend to be somewhat noiseless. I see electric wheelchairs (and electric bikes) all the time on the path. I don't mind it since they seem to at least keep to the right lane, aren't dangerously speedy, and aren't noisy.

gas motors though.... We got enuf on the roads.

I don't really have much problem with electric motors since they tend to be somewhat noiseless. I see electric wheelchairs (and electric bikes) all the time on the path. I don't mind it since they seem to at least keep to the right lane, aren't dangerously speedy, and aren't noisy.

gas motors though.... We got enuf on the roads.

That is beside the point, most MUT have signs that read no motor vehicles on them, and when you take motor vehicles on them you are breaking the law, be it electrical or gas. And the law should be either enforced, or if people believe they are wrong then work on changing the laws.

That is beside the point, most MUT have signs that read no motor vehicles on them, and when you take motor vehicles on them you are breaking the law, be it electrical or gas. And the law should be either enforced, or if people believe they are wrong then work on changing the laws.Sorry, I think I must have misread this. You're really advocating fining people in electric wheelchairs for travelling on MUTs?

That is beside the point, most MUT have signs that read no motor vehicles on them, and when you take motor vehicles on them you are breaking the law, be it electrical or gas. And the law should be either enforced, or if people believe they are wrong then work on changing the laws.


Aren't there laws on this kind of things. I may be wrong on this, but I beleive "motor vehicles" means a motor vehicle that can go faster then 30mph.

If they made an electric bike that could go 50mph, you'd probably need to get a license for it.

I can't seem to find answers on the subject over the net.

yeah....I saw this old guy from a retirement condo complex come out on a golf cart, jimmy rigged up with a homemade canopy (wood planks and tarp), barreling through, bellowing his cigar smoke behind him. He was just jammin down the trail looking at all the girls running/cycling.

My problem lately has been with park officials (trail maintenance, etc...). They come by and have accidentally run me off the road ("Ooops...sorry") a few times.

Saw a Segway on the bike path last Sunday. I think they're fine along with motorized wheelchairs for those who are elderly and those who, for whatever reason, can't walk far or ride a bike. Gasoline engines are never necessary for this use however.

Golf carts are motor vehicles. Electric or gas powered scooters are motor vehicles. Electric wheelchairs are not.

First it was kids on electric scooters.

I see plenty of kids on these, too. This weekend I spotted an adult happily piloting a
scooter like this (http://www.razorama.com/razore300.html) in a bike lane. He was, of course, riding against traffic.

I don't really have much problem with electric motors since they tend to be somewhat noiseless. I see electric wheelchairs (and electric bikes) all the time on the path. I don't mind it since they seem to at least keep to the right lane, aren't dangerously speedy, and aren't noisy.

That is beside the point, most MUT have signs that read no motor vehicles on them, and when you take motor vehicles on them you are breaking the law, be it electrical or gas. And the law should be either enforced, or if people believe they are wrong then work on changing the laws.

In may cases the "no motorized vehicles" edict is merely a policy, and doesn't have the force of law. In addition, it's unlikely that a motorized wheelchair fits the legal definition of a motorized vehicle... technicalities aside.

Next time ,do not say anything to him just call the cops give the time and liscense #and location .Maybe they will get smart and lay in wait and catch the guy.He does not seem to be deterred by you.I am surprised the path is not patrolled by bicycle cops.Mopeds electric and gas scooters ,& Golf carts do not belong.the golf cart seems especially dangerous.

Most state/city laws are written to clearly define what consistute 'non-motorized' or 'bicycle-like' or 'human powered' vehicle. Sign postings by MUPs use the term 'non-motorized' in a non-legal way - refer to the laws to get the real definitions. I would be confident to say that motorized wheelchairs are allowed legally and should be if a MUP.

For example in AZ from Title 28 Definitions (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00101.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS) :
6. "Bicycle" means a device, including a racing wheelchair, that is propelled by human power and on which a person may ride and that has either:
(a) Two tandem wheels, either of which is more than sixteen inches in diameter.
(b) Three wheels in contact with the ground, any of which is more than sixteen inches in diameter.

20. "Electric personal assistive mobility device" means a self-balancing two nontandem wheeled device with an electric propulsion system that limits the maximum speed of the device to fifteen miles per hour or less and that is designed to transport only one person.

23. "Golf cart" means a motor vehicle that has not less than three wheels in contact with the ground, that has an unladen weight of less than one thousand eight hundred pounds, that is designed to be and is operated at not more than twenty-five miles per hour and that is designed to carry not more than four persons including the driver.

30. "Moped" means a bicycle that is equipped with a helper motor if the vehicle has a maximum piston displacement of fifty cubic centimeters or less, a brake horsepower of one and one-half or less and a maximum speed of twenty-five miles per hour or less on a flat surface with less than a one per cent grade.

32. "Motor vehicle":

(a) Means either:
(i) A self-propelled vehicle.
(ii) For the purposes of the laws relating to the imposition of a tax on motor vehicle fuel, a vehicle that is operated on the highways of this state and that is propelled by the use of motor vehicle fuel.
(b) Does not include a motorized wheelchair, an electric personal assistive mobility device or a motorized skateboard. For the purposes of this subdivision:
(i) "Motorized skateboard" means a self-propelled device that has a motor, a deck on which a person may ride and at least two tandem wheels in contact with the ground.
(ii) "Motorized wheelchair" means a self-propelled wheelchair that is used by a person for mobility.

40. "Pedestrian" means any person afoot. A person who uses an electric personal assistive mobility device or a manual or motorized wheelchair is considered a pedestrian unless the manual wheelchair qualifies as a bicycle. For the purposes of this paragraph, "motorized wheelchair" means a self-propelled wheelchair that is used by a person for mobility.

(then read the rest of Title 28 to see where and what laws do and do not apply.)

Al

I think I've seen that guy before. I take that path every day, usually at about 6:45 - 7:15am out of the city and somewhere between 4 and 5:30pm into the city. At what times do you see him going in what directions? I've only seen him twice, it might've beern on days when I left home or work abnormally early.

Also, there aren't any clear signs on the path that say that you can't do that. Maybe we should check the statutes.

In the morring he is coming from John Nolen Dr. at night he is going to John Nolen Dr. It is marked on the street sign that says "Captial City Trail NO MOTORIZED VEHICLE"

GEEK

It's definitely against the rules, too. Statute 346.79(5)
"No person may ride a moped or motor bicycle with the power unit in operation upon a bicycle way."

Perhaps I haven't seen him, though. I've seen a guy on the bike path that is between John Nolen and Lake Monona, but not really on the Capital City bike path proper. I think. I don't know the names too well. I come from the city and go under the beltline, then turn on Industrial Drive to go to work. I'm pretty sure the Capital City path starts right there on the other side of Industrial Drive.

That is beside the point, most MUT have signs that read no motor vehicles on them, and when you take motor vehicles on them you are breaking the law, be it electrical or gas. And the law should be either enforced, or if people believe they are wrong then work on changing the laws.

So are electric wheelchairs, motor vehicles?

But then again in some areas pushbike are allow to be ridden on the sidewalks (footpths) even those they would be classed as legal road vehicles like cars.

So are electric wheelchairs, motor vehicles?

But then again in some areas pushbike are allow to be ridden on the sidewalks (footpths) even those they would be classed as legal road vehicles like cars.

I would consider an electric wheelchair as a pedestrian unless the thing is souped up to run at high speed. I would even consider those electric carts (the 3 wheeled thing lots of people use to get around in my office building) as a pedestrian. Their speeds are comparable to the speeds of other users of the MUP. A moped could go upwards of 30-40 mph. That's too fast for a MUP. (Even 15-20 mph on a bike feels dangerous on those paths when there is any traffic at all).

So are electric wheelchairs, motor vehicles?

But then again in some areas pushbike are allow to be ridden on the sidewalks (footpths) even those they would be classed as legal road vehicles like cars.
I posted the law definitions for Arizona above.
Read #20, #32 and #40 and you have the answers for that state. (Basically motorized wheelchairs are pedestrians unless they go over 15mph) I'd bet your local/state/region laws are also on line for you to learn.

Al

Aren't there laws on this kind of things. I may be wrong on this, but I beleive "motor vehicles" means a motor vehicle that can go faster then 30mph.

My bike goes over 30mph without too much difficulty.

You're a motor! :)

Does that mean I'm banned from MUPs? (of course I refrain from sprinting on the paths (usually))

;)

Behavior should be restricted, not specific types of vehicles.
A moped can be ridden just as safely on a path as can a bicycle.
A bicycle can be ridden just as UNsafely on a path as can a moped.

Most paths have a (sometimes explicit but usually implied) speed limit of around 8 mph. If the sight lines are long, and there is little to no pedestrian traffic, higher speeds can be safe.

Behavior should determine who is allowed on a path, not their vehicle.

Behavior should be restricted, not specific types of vehicles.
A moped can be ridden just as safely on a path as can a bicycle.
A bicycle can be ridden just as UNsafely on a path as can a moped.

Most paths have a (sometimes explicit but usually implied) speed limit of around 8 mph. If the sight lines are long, and there is little to no pedestrian traffic, higher speeds can be safe.

Behavior should determine who is allowed on a path, not their vehicle.8? Really? That's ridiculous. I can't go that slow uphill.

It's definitely against the rules, too. Statute 346.79(5)
"No person may ride a moped or motor bicycle with the power unit in operation upon a bicycle way."

So these are Wisconsin laws that related directly to what we're talking about here. This is the definition of for moped and motor bicycle:

"(29m) “Moped” means any of the following motor vehicles
capable of speeds of not more than 30 miles per hour with a
150–pound rider on a dry, level, hard surface with no wind,
excluding a tractor, a power source as an integral part of the
vehicle and a seat for the operator:
(a) A bicycle–type vehicle with fully operative pedals for propulsion
by human power and an engine certified by the manufacturer
at not more than 50 cubic centimeters or an equivalent power
unit.
(b) A Type 1 motorcycle with an automatic transmission and
an engine certified by the manufacturer at not more than 50 cubic
centimeters or an equivalent power unit.
(30) “Motor bicycle” means a bicycle to which a power unit
not an integral part of the vehicle has been added to permit the
vehicle to travel at a speed of not more than 30 miles per hour with
a 150–pound rider on a dry, level, hard surface with no wind and
having a seat for the operator."


So, as I read it, if your "moped" goes more than 30mph, then it's not really a moped. Maybe you can ride it on the path then?

After numerous encounters and debates (but no tickets) with DNR field persons, I know WI DNR considers a mountain bike a "vehicle" enough that you can't carry a loaded uncased shotgun on it when grouse hunting!

After numerous encounters and debates (but no tickets) with DNR field persons, I know WI DNR considers a mountain bike a "vehicle" enough that you can't carry a loaded uncased shotgun on it when grouse hunting!

Sounds like that would have been a pretty entertaining conversation.

After numerous encounters and debates (but no tickets) with DNR field persons, I know WI DNR considers a mountain bike a "vehicle" enough that you can't carry a loaded uncased shotgun on it when grouse hunting!
if you are going hunting do you need your bike, I would think that you would want to be on your feet so you can stop and hide at a moments notice, and a bike might hinder you at that. I can only imagen bike hunting. That could make a great comic.

Behavior should be restricted, not specific types of vehicles.
A moped can be ridden just as safely on a path as can a bicycle.
A bicycle can be ridden just as UNsafely on a path as can a moped.

Most paths have a (sometimes explicit but usually implied) speed limit of around 8 mph. If the sight lines are long, and there is little to no pedestrian traffic, higher speeds can be safe.

Behavior should determine who is allowed on a path, not their vehicle.

you're a genius. if everyone thought like you, this whole forum would be useless.

After numerous encounters and debates (but no tickets) with DNR field persons, I know WI DNR considers a mountain bike a "vehicle" enough that you can't carry a loaded uncased shotgun on it when grouse hunting!
I love Wisconsin.

if you are going hunting do you need your bike, I would think that you would want to be on your feet so you can stop and hide at a moments notice, and a bike might hinder you at that. I can only imagen bike hunting. That could make a great comic.

The bike let's you get quickly past where all the easy foot traffic has pounded a trail to find undisturbed birds without having a half day walk. without a dog Partridge hunting isn't about hiding, it's about getting the birds to flush or seeing them on the trail. I've sat with 2-3 guys talking and eating lunch for five minutes only to have a bird flush 20 yds away when we start walking again. It took that much to make it nervous enough to flush. Without a dog you probably walk past 2-3 birds for every 1 you put up. I now just carry it cased and unloaded and use the bike for transport to good habitat faster and farther.

This is somewhat mean-spirited but I have the same problem with people in motorized wheelchairs. What about "no motorized vehicles" is unclear? There ARE non-motorized wheelchairs... I can only imagine the squawking if anyone ever complained though.

Are you familiar with the Americans with Disabilities Act?

You are going to have a hard time banning something designed to give equal access to a person with a disability (an electric wheelchair) to a public facility (MUP).

My son is paralyzed from the neck down, but he uses MUP's (MUT's). How would you suggest he power a manual wheelchair, as he has no use of his arms.

Be careful, my son is also a nationally known civil rights attorney (http://www.foxrob.com) and he (and I) would haul your arse to court if you attempted to limit access to electric wheelchairs, if we had the time.

Are you familiar with the Americans with Disabilities Act?

You are going to have a hard time banning something designed to give equal access to a person with a disability to a public facility (MUP).

My son is paralyzed from the neck down, but he uses MUP's (MUT's). How would you suggest he power a manual wheelchair, as he has no use of his arms.

Be careful, my son is also a nationally known civil rights attorney (http://www.foxrob.com) and he (and I) wil haul your arse to court if we had the time.
Very good point DnvrFox - it seems so obvious to me as to not even be debateable.
One law (in AZ at least) that I think is great is that a (non motorized) 'racing style wheelchair' is considered a bicycle. This means they can use bike lanes and ride vehicularly if the choose. There is a guy out here I see on my commute that does exactly that.

Al

.Most paths have a (sometimes explicit but usually implied) speed limit of around 8 mph. If the sight lines are long, and there is little to no pedestrian traffic, higher speeds can be safe.

8mph speed limit implied? Oh Yeah? Sez who?

Be careful, my son is also a nationally known civil rights attorney (http://www.foxrob.com) and he (and I) would haul your arse to court if you attempted to limit access to electric wheelchairs, if we had the time.

Oh wah... Life isn't fair. Have a friend push him in a manual chair... Stop being so touchy.

Behavior should determine who is allowed on a path, not their vehicle.
This discussion started not about what should or should not be allowed in theory. It started based on finding if this moped use was illegal and if so getting it stopped.

I am a bit concerned that folks pose opinions and speculate as to what is OK use on (this) MUP.

In cases like this where we are not talking about ideas (such as what make a good BL) we must reference the law.

Then if you don't like the law work to get it changed.

I say this as speculation and uninformed opinion are dangerous precidents in advocacy - for example imagine a similar discussion on an 'auto advocacy forum' where some guy says a bicylist was riding on the middle of left turn lane instead of the bike lane where they should have been - then instead of learning or referencing the law, the advocacy group speculates its illegal and that it is wrong and should be stopped -from there misconceptions are formed and spread.

Al

Oh wah... Life isn't fair. Have a friend push him in a manual chair... Stop being so touchy.

Who's being touchy? This thread is a bunch of cyclists pissed off that someone brought a moped on a bike path. (It pisses me off too) If someone can't walk or operate a manual wheel chair, what could possibly be your objection to letting them use the path at a reasonable speed?

The original author attempted to be intimidating with talk of lawyers and hauling arses into court. What do you call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.

I don't do internet peeing contests. My only "problem" is with using something, anything, with a motor on a trail with signs saying, "no motorized vehicles." It's a semantic and philosophical discussion point. There are alternatives available.

At any rate, I'm out. Ride safe.

My only "problem" is with using something, anything, with a motor on a trail with signs saying, "no motorized vehicles." It's a semantic and philosophical discussion point. There are alternatives available.

It is about the law. In AZ (and I'd bet locality in question) motorized vehicles thankfully do not include powered wheelchairs:

32. "Motor vehicle":
(a) Means either:
(i) A self-propelled vehicle.
(ii) For the purposes of the laws relating to the imposition of a tax on motor vehicle fuel, a vehicle that is operated on the highways of this state and that is propelled by the use of motor vehicle fuel.
(b) Does not include a motorized wheelchair, an electric personal assistive mobility device or a motorized skateboard. For the purposes of this subdivision:
(i) "Motorized skateboard" means a self-propelled device that has a motor, a deck on which a person may ride and at least two tandem wheels in contact with the ground.
(ii) "Motorized wheelchair" means a self-propelled wheelchair that is used by a person for mobility.

Again, it is about law, not semantics or what a popular or laymans defintions of motorized vehicle is.

And there are no resonable (i.e. ones that don't require a dedicated mobility caretaker) alternatives for many users of 'motorized wheelchairs'

Al

Oh wah... Life isn't fair. Have a friend push him in a manual chair... Stop being so touchy.

And stop being so stupid and narrow. Expand your horizons and your vision.

The original author attempted to be intimidating with talk of lawyers and hauling arses into court. What do you call 10,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.

.

And just one bicyclist at the bottom of the ocean is a good finish.

=v= The laws are inconsistent and often ill-advised, and may have more to do with lobbyists bribing legislators than anything else.

In California, a company called ZAPworld lobbied to have electric-assist gadgets defined, by law, as nonpolluting (which isn't true), and gave them the name "motorized scooters." They also got "motorized scooters" access to all bicycle facilities. Then along came more lobbyists who extended the legal definition of "motorized scooters" to include non-electric gadgets. So now California law declares that two-stroke engines don't pollute and are allowed on bike paths!

If your law includes the words "electric personal assistive mobility device" anywhere, that means that lobbyists from Segway LLC have bribed legislators and probably handed them the text of the law to enact.

I'm fine with ADA provisions that allow those who truly need an electric wheelchair or conveyance or even a Segway to have access to multi-use paths. This other stuff, though, has nothing to do with sensible policy.

Around here, motorized vehicles (except wheel chairs) are prohibited from using bike paths. The park rangers strictly enforce the law.