Training & Nutrition - Going Veggie

Are there any vegetarian cyclists out there? I'm thinking about going the veggie route (but allow eggs). Please don't ask me about the reason since I don't want this to be a flame war. I just want to know if it will hinder my progress as a cyclist and what effects it might have.

I'm not a vegetarian, but if you are going vegie talk to you doctor about a balanced diet.

There's a bunch of vegetarians in 'training and nutrition' (which is where this thread belongs) and some in 'singlespeed and fixed gear' and some in 'politics and religion' forums.

Good luck.

:)

My cousin is a full vegitarian. His whole family is. he also prob weighs 130-140 and it almost all muscle ride every day and his cholesteral is in the 200+ range...

I think its works great. I personally cant live without meat. But there are pleny of ways to get your carb fix and protein. Plus you will most likely lose weight. I may consider it sometime.

I'm not a vegetarian, but if you are going vegie talk to you doctor about a balanced diet.

Absolutely. I had a friend who didn't complement her proteins and managed to end up in the hospital. This isn't a political issue, it biochemical. Meat matches what you need a lot better than beans or rice, although beans AND rice is a pretty good combination.

If you eat a well balanced diet and limit the amount of eggs and fast food you should see an improvement in your cycling and extend your life expectancy at the same time, this means more cycling! Good on you, and the best of luck. Just don’t listen to the meat eaters who will come up with all kinds of strange arguments about how god gave us hands to hold clubs to kill animals etc. etc.

Just don’t listen to the meat eaters who will come up with all kinds of strange arguments about how god gave us hands to hold clubs to kill animals etc. etc.

Agreed, that's the silliest argument I've ever heard.

Everyone knows that God gave us hickory trees so that we could slow cook pork ribs into a symphony of barbecuey goodness.

If you eat a well balanced diet and limit the amount of eggs and fast food you should see an improvement in your cycling and extend your life expectancy at the same time, this means more cycling! Good on you, and the best of luck. Just don’t listen to the meat eaters who will come up with all kinds of strange arguments about how god gave us hands to hold clubs to kill animals etc. etc.

"extend your life expectancy"
Proof?

God didn't necessarily give us clubs, but he did give us dominion over the animals. And by the way I love animals, they taste great!

(edit) SpongeDad,
You beat me to him!

Absolutely. I had a friend who didn't complement her proteins and managed to end up in the hospital. This isn't a political issue, it biochemical. Meat matches what you need a lot better than beans or rice, although beans AND rice is a pretty good combination.

Ever hear of something called cholesterol? If you believe the advice that you gave, you are totally clueless.

Ever hear of something called cholesterol? If you believe the advice that you gave, you are totally clueless.

No. I'm someone with a Ph.D. in biochemistry from a better school than you ever walked by.

If you read my post, instead of what you think I wrote, you'd have realized that I wasn't telling the OP not to go veggie. I was simply pointing out the undeniable fact that to get the proper mix of amino acids one must "complement" veggie foods, a fairly uncontroversial practice among veggies.

It's entirely possible to construct an egg plus veggie diet that limits cholesterol intake, just as it is possible to substitute so much animal protein with egg protein that cholesterol intake would go up. One simply needs to pay attention to what one is doing. You should try it some time.

[Edit: link advocating complementation from Duke's student health services: http://healthydevil.studentaffairs.duke.edu/health_information/vegetarian_diet.html]

this thread has been done! who has the link?

Everyone knows that God gave us hickory trees so that we could slow cook pork ribs into a symphony of barbecuey goodness.

I was listening to international radio and this guy from the southern part of America was going on about how if god didn’t want us to eat meat it wouldn’t have given us fire and BBQ sauce. Funny, I almost pissed myself.

No. I'm someone with a Ph.D. in biochemistry from a better school than you ever walked by.

Good God. I love it when people who think they are smarter than everyone else make ignorant comments like this. It's even better when arrogant @ssholes (like yourself, obviously) have to make up for low self-esteem by bragging on bikeforums.net Where did you get your PhD, West Virginia University?




If you read my post, instead of what you think I wrote, you'd have realized that I wasn't telling the OP not to go veggie. I was simply pointing out the undeniable fact that to get the proper mix of amino acids one must "complement" veggie foods, a fairly uncontroversial practice among veggies.

It's entirely possible to construct an egg plus veggie diet that limits cholesterol intake, just as it is possible to substitute so much animal protein with egg protein that cholesterol intake would go up. One simply needs to pay attention to what one is doing. You should try it some time.

No, you said that "Meat matches what you need a lot better than beans or rice.” That is simply not true. With the right combinations of nuts, grains and seeds, the body will receive all eight amino acids. Next time, do a little research before you feel the need to pontificate your one-sided ideas in a public forum like this.

Butch -

You accused me of being clueless - I merely pointed out that I wasn't, and I have the training to back that up.

Also, you again demonstrate your inability to read my post. I said beans OR rice weren't a good match, but that beans AND rice were pretty good.

You then go on argue that combining veggie foods can give you all the necessary amino acids, ignoring the fact that the point of my post was to make sure the OP was complementing their diet to accomplish exactly that.

You also ignore the fact that my advice was consistent with that of any legitimate healthcare professional - veggie is fine as long as you pay attention to what you're doing.

Finally, I did not attend WVU, although I believe WVU has an admirable record in generating Rhodes Scholars. Believe it or not, there are actually intelligent people in West Virginia. Rocks your world doesn't it.

My cousin is a full vegitarian. His whole family is. he also prob weighs 130-140 and it almost all muscle ride every day and his cholesteral is in the 200+ range...Your cousin's cholesterol levels are very high. I thought vegetarian diets help to lower your cholesterol?

Butch -

You accused me of being clueless - I merely pointed out that I wasn't, and I have the training to back that up.

Also, you again demonstrate your inability to read my post. I said beans OR rice weren't a good match, but that beans AND rice were pretty good.

No, you are clueless and arrogant. Early on in the thread you were indicating that a vegetarian would need to use animal products (eggs) to complement their diet. (“It's entirely possible to construct an egg plus veggie diet that limits cholesterol intake, just as it is possible to substitute so much animal protein with egg protein that cholesterol intake would go up.”) You didn’t continue this after I stated that all eight amino acids could be obtained from non-animal sources.


You were doing more than providing yourself with credibility, you were being arrogant. A statement like “I'm someone with a Ph.D. in biochemistry from a better school than you ever walked by.” screams arrogance!




You then go on argue that combining veggie foods can give you all the necessary amino acids, ignoring the fact that the point of my post was to make sure the OP was complementing their diet to accomplish exactly that.

You also ignore the fact that my advice was consistent with that of any legitimate healthcare professional - veggie is fine as long as you pay attention to what you're doing.


See first point.




Finally, I did not attend WVU, although I believe WVU has an admirable record in generating Rhodes Scholars. Believe it or not, there are actually intelligent people in West Virginia. Rocks your world doesn't it.


I agree that many fine minds have come out of WVU, but they are not particularly known for their biochemistry program.

Your cousin's cholesterol levels are very high. I thought vegetarian diets help to lower your cholesterol?

genetics. It has helped. OF course lucky me, im in the family! (oh hes more of my second cousin he is 50)

No. I'm someone with a Ph.D. in biochemistry from a better school than you ever walked by.

If you read my post, instead of what you think I wrote, you'd have realized that I wasn't telling the OP not to go veggie. I was simply pointing out the undeniable fact that to get the proper mix of amino acids one must "complement" veggie foods, a fairly uncontroversial practice among veggies.

It's entirely possible to construct an egg plus veggie diet that limits cholesterol intake, just as it is possible to substitute so much animal protein with egg protein that cholesterol intake would go up. One simply needs to pay attention to what one is doing. You should try it some time.

[Edit: link advocating complementation from Duke's student health services: http://healthydevil.studentaffairs.duke.edu/health_information/vegetarian_diet.html]

Oh, and BTW, you should figure out how to link to something before posting a link.

Butch and Sponge...the new Springer show?

Butch and Sponge...the new Springer show?

http://beeromis.tripod.com/cgi-bin/jerry.jpg

No, you are clueless and arrogant. Early on in the thread you were indicating that a vegetarian would need to use animal products (eggs) to complement their diet.


Umm, a vegetarian diet by deffinition contains animal products. If it doesn't contain animal products it's vegan, not vegetarian. Vegetarian diet's are healthy, vegan diet's aren't. See http://www.westonaprice.org

The cholesterol myth is nonsense too. It wasn't that long ago that a cholesterol level of 240 was considered healthy. Then it was dropped to 220 and now 200. Can anyone point me to the scientific justification for this?

The conspiricy theory is that the big pharma companies have had the limit arbitarily lowered so as to increase their market and there may be something to this theory. By the way the ALL cause death rate is higher for low cholesterol than for high cholesterol.


Regards, Anthony

okay...this is precisely what the OP didn't want to happen...
Best advice yet...ask your MD...whom none of us are.

Umm, a vegetarian diet by deffinition contains animal products. If it doesn't contain animal products it's vegan, not vegetarian. Vegetarian diet's are healthy, vegan diet's aren't. See http://www.westonaprice.org



Wrong! Take a look at the definition (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=vegetarianism) before you boldly state something.




The cholesterol myth is nonsense too. It wasn't that long ago that a cholesterol level of 240 was considered healthy. Then it was dropped to 220 and now 200. Can anyone point me to the scientific justification for this?


Don’t know the history of this. Can’t point you in the right direction. Having said that, I don’t see how you can disregard major medical evidence the way you have. Seem foolish.




The conspiricy theory is that the big pharma companies have had the limit arbitarily lowered so as to increase their market and there may be something to this theory. By the way the ALL cause death rate is higher for low cholesterol than for high cholesterol.


Regards, Anthony


I won’t even answer this seeing how you can’t spell “conspiracy” or “arbitrarily.”

Well, I don't have a PhD and know nothing about amino acids but have been told by three different doctors over the course of my life that I have the best heart and blood they've ever tested. One doctor told me I'd never have a heart attack. I eat whatever I want, love ice cream, pizza, Philly stake subs, roast, steak, bacon, and eggs. Munching on a big bowl of buttered (the real stuff) popcorn right now and might have a couple more before calling it a day. Oh yeah, candy bars and Diet Coke too.

I'm very healthy, can ride my bike all day, have no allergies, not overweight, and most people think I'm ten years younger than I am. My parents (80's) are all still alive and healthy as horses. Going back further the guys often live to their mid 90's and the gals sometimes even longer.

So, my point is that genetics play an enormous role in what we can eat and how we respond to diet. For me, I don't like veggies very much so if I had to live on them life would suck. For Comatose it may make a huge difference in his health and energy levels. The advice to seek out a knowledgeable doctor is very good. I'd add that after doing your research and starting the diet listen very carefully to what your body is telling you. If you don't feel so good then maybe the eggs and veggies aren't right for you.

even being a vegan doesnt mean that you do not necessarily mean you have an unhealthy diet. any diet can be problematic animal product or no animal product. its like anything else, know what you eat, in what portion and what that does to your body. simple. you can eat any kind of diet you want given you apply,conform, and adapt it to your life in a healthy manner. and butch and sponge dad...you both had great points... and the arrogant/ignorant comment seemed to be the "pot calling the keddle black" i mean honestly, why does the state name west virginia equal unintelligence. just give up the efighting. and i mean im not taking sides, but even if you think sponge dad was being arrogant, maybe he was just defending the fact that he worked hard at a nice school (which usually means a tougher curriculum) to get his PHD. besides, theres nothing wrong with a bit of arrogance...usually its people misundestanding someones self confidence. i know that once i graduate from college i will be even more self confident with my doctorate in hand. oh well its over guys.
your veggie diet will be just fine so long as you read up on it, make a balanced diet that benefits all aspects of your energy needs. look into vitamin supplements also for certain vitamins you might be lacking. good luck.
-rOOster-

Umm, a vegetarian diet by deffinition contains animal products. If it doesn't contain animal products it's vegan, not vegetarian. Vegetarian diet's are healthy, vegan diet's aren't. See http://www.westonaprice.org

The cholesterol myth is nonsense too. It wasn't that long ago that a cholesterol level of 240 was considered healthy. Then it was dropped to 220 and now 200. Can anyone point me to the scientific justification for this?

The conspiricy theory is that the big pharma companies have had the limit arbitarily lowered so as to increase their market and there may be something to this theory. By the way the ALL cause death rate is higher for low cholesterol than for high cholesterol.


Regards, Anthony
uh, where did you hear that? I believe the ideal max is somewhere around 130-140 total.

Amazing how people "eat up" (so to speak) the lies about meatless diets being somehow deficient or difficult. If you have a properly balanced diet to begin with - which EVERYONE should already have - then eliminating the small component that is meat is no problem. If it causes a problem, then your diet was out-of-balance to begin with. People hear suspicious stories of some wacko hippie who thought they could live on lettuce and pasta, and in their ignorance assume that's somehow a typical vegetarian diet. If you're eating the right things to begin with you won't miss meat at all.

Amazing how people "eat up" (so to speak) the lies about meatless diets being somehow deficient or difficult. If you have a properly balanced diet to begin with - which EVERYONE should already have - then eliminating the small component that is meat is no problem. If it causes a problem, then your diet was out-of-balance to begin with. People hear suspicious stories of some wacko hippie who thought they could live on lettuce and pasta, and in their ignorance assume that's somehow a typical vegetarian diet. If you're eating the right things to begin with you won't miss meat at all.how about we let people eat whatever the hell they want? Trying to push eating meat or living as a vegetarian/vegan is just stupid. People will eat what they want and I'm not convinced either way of living is better or worse. So let's quit the pissing contest shall we?

uh, where did you hear that? I believe the ideal max is somewhere around 130-140 total.


Here are some references,

http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/statin.html and

http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/benefits_cholest.html

Actually I got the figures a little wrong. They came down from 240 to 200 to 180 according to the top article.

EDIT: here's a reference on vegetarianism while I'm at it, http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtvegetarianism.html

Regards, Anthony

I eat meat, but at the same time i understand that it's not natural. not for humans anyway.

for those of us that do eat meat, could you REALLY see yourself picking up a live squirrel / rabit / turkey / fish / whatever... and bite into it raw, skin / feathers / fur and all?

now if you are really supposed to be a meat eater, please i would love to see video / photos, etc of you eating a live animal...

humans should be eating raw fruits and veggies.

I eat meat, but at the same time i understand that it's not natural. not for humans anyway.


Huh? We're omnivores! I don't know what you're talking about, eating sushi/sashimi is natural for me. :D

how about we let people eat whatever the hell they want?

You got that right...uh, just not any endangered critters or pollutive crops...those are verboten.

humans should be eating raw fruits and veggies.

Vegetarian: Man, I really crave one of those nice juicy yellow mangos hanging it that tree, drop little mango, drop!

Meat eater: I really want to club to death the little white lamb and gnaw on its bloody leg and suck the marrow out of its bones!

Yeah, you just don't have to hear the screams of the carrots when they're plucked from their little homes in the ground. "Moommyyy!" Sad, sad, sad, I tell ya..

hmmm, this is weird. I didn't know I stumbled into the "Holier Than Thou" thread. I must be lost.

sushi is good. but really, could you eat a live fish straigh out' the water?

sushi is good. but really, could you eat a live fish straigh out' the water?
huh? What do you think they do to it? :lol: fresh sushi is pretty much straight out of the water (well tuna at least). All they do it bone it and clean it I believe. How is that unnatural? And our ancestors did eat raw meat. Are you vegetarians saying that we evolved past our omnivorous beginnings?

edit: Oh are you saying without killing it? So are vegetarians gonna go after meat eating animals as well because they kill things in order to eat?

no, meat eating animals are built to hunt and kill prey. it's natural. i think we're just built to eat a plant based diet.

sushi is good. but really, could you eat a live fish straigh out' the water?

Bon appetite!

http://www.filmwise.com/contests/contest_21/image_08a.jpg

no, meat eating animals are built to hunt and kill prey. it's natural. i think we're just built to eat a plant based diet.
why do you say that? Is we were built for that we would have a much weaker physique as there wouldn't be much need for muscular builds. Running around and hunting developed our bodies into what they are today. To tell the truth we probably evolved from relative vegetarianism (is that a word?) into hunting larger prey.

Absolutely. I had a friend who didn't complement her proteins and managed to end up in the hospital. This isn't a political issue, it biochemical. Meat matches what you need a lot better than beans or rice, although beans AND rice is a pretty good combination.
There isn't much of a problem "complementing protiens" as long as you eat a variety of foods. Here is an excerpt from the American Dietetic Association's position paper on Vegetarian Diets:

"The body's need for essential amino acids can be met by consumption of animal or plant sources of protein since, after absorption, amino acids from exogenous and endogenous sources combine in the body's protein pool (32). Plant foods contain less of the essential amino acids than do equivalent quantities of animal food, but a plant-based diet provides adequate amounts of amino acids when a varied diet is consumed on a daily basis. A mixture of proteins from unrefined grains, legumes, seeds, nuts, and vegetables will complement one another in their amino acid profiles so that deficits in one are made up by another.
Intakes of different types of protein that complement one another should be eaten over the course of the day. However, since endogenous sources of amino acids are also available, it is not necessary that complementation of amino acid profiles be precise and at exactly the same meal, as the recently popular "combined protein theory" suggested. This theory urged conscious combining of proteins at every meal with the caveat that malnutrition would ensue if this was not done within a strict time interval (33).

Although vegetarian diets usually meet or exceed requirements for protein, they typically provide less protein than nonvegetarian diets. This lower protein intake may be beneficial, however, and may be associated with a lower risk of osteoporosis in vegetarians and improved kidney function in individuals with prior kidney damage (34,35). Further, a lower protein intake generally translates into a lower fat diet with its inherent advantages, since foods high in protein are frequently also high in fat.

Plant carbohydrates are accompanied by liberal amounts of dietary fiber, which has been shown to be important in the prevention and treatment of disease. Foods derived from animal sources contain no fiber. Complex carbohydrates from plants also improve glucose tolerance, as previously noted.

Vegetarian diets that are low in animal foods are typically lower than nonvegetarian diets in total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol, an important factor in risk reduction for heart disease and some forms of cancer. The ratio of polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats to saturated fats is also more favorable in a largely plant-based diet."

"extend your life expectancy"
Proof?

From the American Dietetic Assoc position paper on vegetarian diets:

"Studies of vegetarians indicate that this population generally has lower mortality rates from several chronic degenerative diseases than do non- vegetarians. It is likely that the effects are due not to diet alone but also to a healthy life-style, including desirable weight, regular physical activity, and abstinence from smoking, alcohol, and illicit drugs, with adequate health monitoring (3-6).

Mortality from coronary artery disease is lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (7,8). Total serum cholesterol and LDL cholesterol levels are usually lower, while HDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels vary depending on the type of vegetarian diet that is followed (9-12). Vegetarian diets that are typically very low in fat and cholesterol may decrease levels of apoproteins A, B, and E (12). Platelet composition and possible platelet functions may very, and plasma viscosity may be decreased (13). Such effects may be attributed to the vegetarian's lower intake of total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol, along with lower weight, increased physical activity, and abstinence from smoking (10, 14,15). Vegetarians generally have lower blood pressures and lower rates of Type II diabetes than do nonvegetarians, which may decrease the risk of coronary artery disease in the vegetarian population.
Vegetarians of the Seventh-Day Adventist faith have lower rates of mortality from colon cancer than does the general population (4). That may be due to dietary differences which include increased fiber intake, decreased intake of total fat, cholesterol, and caffeine, increased intakes of fruits and vegetables, and, in lacto-vegetarians, increased intake of calcium (16). Although it is still speculative, the dietary differences, especially in vegans, may produce physiological changes that may inhibit the causal chain for colon cancer (16,17). Lung cancer rates are lower in many types of vegetarians because they typically do not smoke or, possibly, because of their increased intake of beta carotene or other constituents of fruits and vegetables that may also lower lung cancer risk (18). Preliminary evidence suggests that vegetarians may be at lower risk for breast cancer, but further study is indicated (19).

Obesity is a complicating condition exacerbating many diseases. Vegetarians, especially vegans, have weights that are closer to desirable weights than do nonvegetarians (20). Several factors may be involved, including moderation in energy intakes, increased physical activity, and better regulation of food intake. The high-carbohydrate, low-fat vegetarian diet, in combination with exercise, may decrease the risk of obesity (21).

Vegetarians are at lower risk for noninsulin-dependent diabetes, partly because they are leaner than nonvegetarians (22,23). The vegetarians' high intake of complex carbohydrates, with its relatively high fiber content, improves carbohydrate metabolism, lowering basal glucose levels (24,25).

Finally, vegetarians have lower rates of osteoporosis, kidney stones, gallstones, and diverticular disease (29-31). Studies documenting these benefits, however, are inconclusive at this time, and reasons may be related to aspects of life-style other than diet.

Vegetarians have lower rates of hypertension than do nonvegetarians, which may be due to vegetarians' relative leanness (26,27). Other aspects of life-style may also be involved (28), such as dietary habits, increased physical activity, and abstinence from smoking."

Nice, well said Jennings780. (or rather, well quoted).

I know I've said this before but my parents of vegetarian/vegan for just about 50 yrs now. They are both in spectacular health and both having come from large families with serious histories of cancers, heart diease, diabetes and numerous other ailments.
Most of their siblings have also died at young ages.
Luck, chance??? who knows.
Feeling better for having made such decisions long ago - absolutely.

sushi is good. but really, could you eat a live fish straigh out' the water?

uh YES!

Ive been to a restaurant where they took the fish out of a tank and cut it and made sushi. Fine I am a omnivore. Ill tell you right now I eat a ****eload of veggies. I just couldnt live without animal products.


So, my point is that genetics play an enormous role in what we can eat and how we respond to diet. For me, I don't like veggies very much so if I had to live on them life would suck. For Comatose it may make a huge difference in his health and energy levels. The advice to seek out a knowledgeable doctor is very good. I'd add that after doing your research and starting the diet listen very carefully to what your body is telling you. If you don't feel so good then maybe the eggs and veggies aren't right for you.

Ding Ding Ding Ding. I think we have a winner!

I eat meat, but at the same time i understand that it's not natural. not for humans anyway.. Humnas are omnivores. Even many vegans and vegies now acknowledge that their choice is about ethics rather than a "natural" diet.

"Humans are Omnivores" http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm , and on a vegy website!!





for those of us that do eat meat, could you REALLY see yourself picking up a live squirrel / rabit / turkey / fish / whatever... and bite into it raw, skin / feathers / fur and all? . I think if i hadn't eaten for a week I'd be able to kill anything :)



humans should be eating raw fruits and veggies.
problems associated with raw food, etc, from a vegan website, no less
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/raw_food.php

Sorry Jenno 780000, but you knew I'd post these :)


Do vegetarians live longer? Part 1

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/516S?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1090918347833_1261&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&volume=70&firstpage=516s&resourcetype=1&journalcode=ajcn

Part 2

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/78/3/533S?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1090913113842_362&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&volume=78&firstpage=533s&resourcetype=1&journalcode=ajcn

Sorry Jenno 780000, but you knew I'd post these :)


Do vegetarians live longer? Part 1

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/516S?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1090918347833_1261&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&volume=70&firstpage=516s&resourcetype=1&journalcode=ajcn

Part 2

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/78/3/533S?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1090913113842_362&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&volume=78&firstpage=533s&resourcetype=1&journalcode=ajcn

They make good points. The information I quoted made the same point that the increase in life expectancy in vegetarians can be due to other lifestyle choices that are also common among vegetarians.

For instance, I look at my co-workers. When I have a snack at work its typically and apple, orange, grapes, carrots, edamame, etc. For many of my co-workers their snacks are chips and cookies, etc. I get up at 5am and bike or run. During many of my lunch hours I swim. Most of my co-workers don't exercise. I don't smoke. 3 of my co-workers do. I am slim. Most of my co-workers need to lose a pretty good chuck of weight. All of this stuff adds up. Whether I ate some meat or dairy now and then isn't that material when compared to the other aspects of how we live our respective lives. Will I live longer than my co-workers? Who knows. The sample size is too small anyway.

yes, it's the whole "kitten and the caboodle" :)