Sexual harassment, maybe worse . . .

[Crinolin]

I do not mean to be a fear-monger, I mentioned this on another thread but when I looked up "sexual harassment" in the forum search, nothing came up -that I could see - and I think this is kind of important.

Does anyone else have a problem with riding on relatively deserted, back-country roads and getting hollered, whistled and honked at, sometimes even stopped, by creeps? The kind that actually stop you to subject you to a truly obscene suggestion? This has happened more often than I would like. I actually stopped riding a while ago because I was, frankly, scared to go out. My fears have subsided with time, but honestly - out there by myself - what could I really do? I live in Deliverance country after all (movie reference)- and I have been stopped two or three times - once while I was just walking somewhere. I don't stop anymore, by the way. I used to think they wanted directions, now I don't care if they do.

My dad wants me to buy a gun and get a liscense to carry it. Ugh! I hate that it comes down to that. Just leave me alone!

Any suggestions? Anybody else?

[slvoid]

You know how people uglify their beater bikes so people won't steal it?
Maybe it's about time to do the same to yourself. :)
Or try riding in less desolate roads, not in the middle of the night, or have a friend with you?

[twahl]

To make a terrible comment...considering that you are from Deliverance country, I have to inquire as to whether you are male or female?

Carrying a gun is not a good idea unless you are willing to use it. Something less lethal, like pepper spray or a personal stun gun might be entirely appropriate though. I generally carry pepper spray, and I'm rarely harassed, sexually or otherwise.

[Cadd]

Just live with it. You can ask the ladies here in NYC. Almost EVERY SINGLE GIRL here will have to put up with comments every single day.

Men in business suits do it, men on the subway & buses do it......

It's life. Have you ever walked down a block full of construction workers sitting down having their lunch? If you're a female with two legs walking by, you'll get a comment.....more than one.

[trayer350]

getting hollered, whistled and honked at,

Are you complaining or bragging?

[Litespeed]

Gee maybe I'm just to old and ugly to get any comments, never had any bad ones that I can recall. Did have some college kids see me riding up a hill and yell "looking good!" or something like that. I'm sure once they were able to look back at me and see how old I was, they regretted saying it. They probably won't make any more comments to any cyclist now. There is only one place around where I live that I am a little concerned about riding alone but it's a pretty popular biking area so I really don't let it bother me much especially on the weekends during the middle of the day.

If someone ask you to stopped, don't, just keep on riding and act like you didn't hear what they said, or just give a friendly wave and keep going. No use taking any unneccesary chances--and definitely go with your gut instinct.

[Mars]

I think that carrying a gun is a bad idea and likely to get you in way worse situations than you are currently facing. From your post, I am guessing that you are pretty attractive. guys driving down country roads usually drive pretty fast right? How about giving some thought to changing how you look? Not uglify, but just throw them off. I know a woman who always rides with a backpack on because it interferes with the ability to determine what her gender is by an observer. Maybe put your hair up? Lastly, carry a cell phone and take it out if someone stops you ( I agree with Litespeed that you should not stop if possible). If they see that you have a cell phone and can call for help they may not try anything. Also, if someone stops you and makes an obscene comment, call the police right then and there. That should get rid of them.

Hope this helps. You should be able to ride our bike without fear or harrassment.

[Anthony King]

I do not mean to be a fear-monger, I mentioned this on another thread but when I looked up "sexual harassment" in the forum search, nothing came up -that I could see - and I think this is kind of important.

Does anyone else have a problem with riding on relatively deserted, back-country roads and getting hollered, whistled and honked at, sometimes even stopped, by creeps? The kind that actually stop you to subject you to a truly obscene suggestion? This has happened more often than I would like. I actually stopped riding a while ago because I was, frankly, scared to go out. My fears have subsided with time, but honestly - out there by myself - what could I really do? I live in Deliverance country after all (movie reference)- and I have been stopped two or three times - once while I was just walking somewhere. I don't stop anymore, by the way. I used to think they wanted directions, now I don't care if they do.

My dad wants me to buy a gun and get a liscense to carry it. Ugh! I hate that it comes down to that. Just leave me alone!

Any suggestions? Anybody else?

I'm sorry this has happened to you. People say things from cars and anonymously and cowardly disappear down the road. There is no accountability from without or character from within to stop them. My girlfriend has a hard time riding by herself. It is intimidating to her and I know it makes me mad as hell. Pepper spray or mace might suit you better than a gun, but I think you really need to talk to other women cyclists who understand the situations you face. I believe if you send a pm to Koffee Brown, who is a mod on the boards, she will get you into the women's forum.

[jeff williams]

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/akita.htm This breed can deal with pitbulls....dudes too.

[nycm'er]

Just live with it. You can ask the ladies here in NYC.
Please do not think this inane comment reflects any other New Yorker's opinion on this matter, or anyone who has ever been here, or wants to come here or has seen a postcard from here, or...

I am sorry that things have happened to you and it is too bad that it made you give up riding because of it. You shouldn't have to put up with this, could you call in lic. numbers to the cops after something spooky happens? The cellphone is a good idea, also you can pretend to take pictures with it if need be, capturing, or pretending to, cools off a lot of tough guys. One bit of City advice if I may, do not act afraid, be stern and look strong even if you are jelly inside. I think some people look for weakness and inspired to act on it. Best defense is a good offense blah blah. Be strong and keep riding.

[lilHinault]

Honestly, I think a young gal is safer in most of NYC than in deliverance country.

Learn, and have, some dirty tricks up your sleeve, from a hideout gun to some ammonia hidden away, etc.

Frankly, I live in an area where, if any real redneck types still live here they're one in a million, have been able to avoid getting a criminal record, getting afoul of the law, etc. Silicon Valley imposes a strict filter on people to live here, you have to be very "clean" legally, be capable of affording to live here which takes some real smarts and ability, the kind of ppl you're among would have a hard time lasting here.

If they were ever here they were last seen on I-40 with a mattress(es) on top of their old Ford F-100 and heading east lol.

If I'm harassed by one person or set of people in a car, chances are pretty good the next set of people in the next car are decent enough to help or call for help.

You don't have that gurantee - remember in Deliverance there was *not* a cop or a good samaritan (or Hindu) a few trees over. That's what made what happened possible, it was in an isolated area.

Please, be careful and realistic.

[steveknight]

cars make people feel brave. so the poorly edgucated like to vocalize because they are pretty imature people. they don't understand that yelling out a window makes them real idots.

[Cadd]

Please do not think this inane comment reflects any other New Yorker's opinion on this matter, or anyone who has ever been here, or wants to come here or has seen a postcard from here, or...........

.........The cellphone is a good idea, also you can pretend to take pictures with it if need be, capturing, or pretending to, cools off a lot of tough guys.
Obviously my comments are my own personal opinions. I hope I did not convey that I was representing all NYers when I posted. Now that that's clear, I don't think a camera would be a good idea.

If I am a trouble maker and somehow teased a cute lady on a deserted road and she took a picture of me, what would I do? Remember, I'm a criminal here....maybe even a warrant. I would definitely want that camera or the film. I don't want to be reported to the authorities!

I would stop and try to grab the evidence.....and with body contact, it may not be a bad idea to drag you in a nearby ally to get some bonus action.

I would personally try no to tick off someone. Who knows he could be some psycho.

[CRUM]

It's a sad state of affairs that the people in this country and elsewhere cannot respect each other enough to allow each other the freedom to move about unhindered by comments not invited. But there it is. Reality. The world is chock full of neandrathals and horny boneheads who can't keep their comments to themseles where they belong. IMO, the best way to combat the hecklers is to carry on without acknowledging their presence, but keeping an eye out for a safe escape if necessary.

I will be the first to admit I notice good looking women. I cannot help myself. But what I can do is control my urges and allow them the same freedom from harrassment they allow me.

[dobber]

Frankly, I live in an area where, if any real redneck types still live here they're one in a million, have been able to avoid getting a criminal record, getting afoul of the law, etc. Silicon Valley imposes a strict filter on people to live here, you have to be very "clean" legally, be capable of affording to live here which takes some real smarts and ability, the kind of ppl you're among would have a hard time lasting here.

Silicon Valley imposes a strict filter? Do you have a secret handshake? The valley has it's share or crooks and pervs also, they just drive better cars.

You don't have that gurantee - remember in Deliverance there was *not* a cop or a good samaritan (or Hindu) a few trees over. That's what made what happened possible, it was in an isolated area.

Ahh, Deliverance was a work of fiction

[MichaelW]

Your security issues are quite different to those of a big-city rider. A few passing comments in a crowded city can be shrugged off, a rider can easily out-pace a driver or pedestrian. On a deserted rural lane things can be different.
Your best defence is in numbers, consider finding some riding partners.
It is best to do your thinking before trouble comes. Work out a few scenarios from unpleasant to very bad and figure some tactics for escape. Real self defense is not just a few neat karate chops but the ability switch into combat mode and think tactically and with a cool head. Landing the first blow is always a sound move (2nd only to running away) but nice people dont like to hit. Combat training should turn you from a nice civilian into a somone who is quite prepared to hit hard, fast and first.
Whatever weapon you chose (bike, bike lock, pepper, fire-arm) you need practice. With a firearm you need good training that is more than mere target practice.

[sjjone]

As a runner I was always worried on country roads, I feel a little safer on the bike, but it's still an issue. I carry a VERY strong peper spray, and have been taking Krav Maga for about a year-some people think it's fluffy, but it's given me the mindset neccessary to defend myself. I'm aware of how to use my elbows and knees, how to stay upright, get out of headlocks and chokes, etc.

Try and find a similar self defense class near you-if nothing else the mindset will be very helpful. As a woman it took a couple weeks for me to really let go and hit with everything I've got-we're taught from a young age not to punch and hit, it really takes effort to get over that.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Silicon Valley imposes a strict filter? Do you have a secret handshake? The valley has it's share or crooks and pervs also, they just drive better cars.



Ahh, Deliverance was a work of fiction

As are the fantasy generalizations about moral purity coming from (and about) that California Garden of Eden - Silicon Valley.

[Don Gwinn]

MichaelW is the only one I'd listen to on firearms or any weapons for that matter. Personally, I would normally recommend a firearm and a carry license to someone with your fears, but if you've thought it over and decided you don't want to do that, then it wouldn't do you any good.

Carrying a gun is not a bad idea nor, by itself, a particularly good one. It all depends on YOU. Training is a must if you're going to carry a firearm responsibly, and mindset matters.

Now, I believe a firearm is the single most effective self-defense weapon ever developed by mankind. It can't do everything, but it has some real advantages over things like pepper spray or TASER weapons.

My signature has several places where you can go and ask any question you can think of about firearms and self-defense without being judged. I highly recommend www.thehighroad.org, where I moderate the Legal/Political forums and Non-Firearm Weapons (dealing with knives, pepper spray, TASERs, etc.)



The thing to remember about weapons is that WEAPONS ARE NOT MAGIC TALISMANS.

They will NOT corrupt a good person into an evil killer, as so many would have you believe. But you also do not magically become safe because you have one with you. Your own awareness and mindset will still always be the most important thing.

You also need to understand what a firearm will and will not do. It will be very useful, maybe a lifesaver, in a situation where you are attacked and are genuinely afraid that you're going to be killed or raped. It will do absolutely nothing about people who make creepy comments to you or leer at you on isolated roads.



If you're still undecided as to whether you should get the gun, I would recommend going out now and getting the CCW license. If you decide not to carry, having the license won't hurt. But depending on your state, it may take weeks or more to get it once you decide you want it. In many states having the CCW will also exempt you from waiting periods if you need to purchase a firearm.

Please feel free to PM or email me if you have any more questions about any of this.

[cookiepuss]

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/akita.htm This breed can deal with pitbulls....dudes too.

Akita's are crazy for one. Much more crazy and bad temperment than a pit bull. even though pit bulls are the "media darlings" at the momment. Plus dogs are not good to take riding, or running for that matter. Dogs are sprinters not distance runners.

As for the original post:

I'd go along with the suggestion to get pepper spray or a stun gun. The only problem is if you are in far north Georgia (where Deliverence was filmed) populated areas are few and far between. So say you pepper or stun a creep messing with you and take off. He might have time to catch up to you once he recovers a bit since he is in a car. Long before even the cops get to where you are. Just thought I'd point that out.

As for a gun that is your call. If you have one you have to be ready to use it. Plus you can't exactly shoot someone for talking dirty to you. Even in Texas. So it is not a deterent reallly unless you skip the concealed weapon permit and wear it in a holster on your outside in plain view. I don't think a creepy guy once he pulled up closs enough to say something would mess with you if he saw a gun on your hip. Be sure to have a cell phone no matter what. ;)

[Crinolin]

These posts have been very helpful, thank you very much. I have done things like plan escape routes and always keep in mind the nearest houses or places to run if need be. I also have a cell-phone, and will start taking that with me all the time now.

I can deal with just being yelled or honked at, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that - I certainly did not mean to sound flattered! I realize that is just annoying and not necessarily endangering, I'm not trying to have a perfect world. It was really the guys who actually slow down and stop or turn around - how many ways can you interpret that?

I appreciate the gun advice too. When dad first suggested it to me I didn't want to hear it at all - I don't want to kill anybody! But then again, I don't want to be a helpless, wilting flower. I wouldn't get a firearm unless I took some classes and cultivated a Laura Croft attitude :).

Also, the nature of this forum, for safety, makes me sound like this is an all-consuming problem, but I don't want to make myself sound like a wimp or scaredy-cat or worry-wart. I love to ride my bike and that is why I will even though there are risks. Knowing there are others out there dealing with this and also getting all this good advice really helps. I'll take normal risks; I just don't want to be an idiot. Thank you so much again.

[chanel]

I do not mean to be a fear-monger, I mentioned this on another thread but when I looked up "sexual harassment" in the forum search, nothing came up -that I could see - and I think this is kind of important.

Does anyone else have a problem with riding on relatively deserted, back-country roads and getting hollered, whistled and honked at, sometimes even stopped, by creeps? The kind that actually stop you to subject you to a truly obscene suggestion? This has happened more often than I would like. I actually stopped riding a while ago because I was, frankly, scared to go out. My fears have subsided with time, but honestly - out there by myself - what could I really do? I live in Deliverance country after all (movie reference)- and I have been stopped two or three times - once while I was just walking somewhere. I don't stop anymore, by the way. I used to think they wanted directions, now I don't care if they do.

My dad wants me to buy a gun and get a liscense to carry it. Ugh! I hate that it comes down to that. Just leave me alone!

Any suggestions? Anybody else?
Hi

I am afraid to ride alone. However, last time I rode with two female friends we were jeered by Medusa in an SUV and had racial slurs yelled. I am not afraid of any sexual harrassment, because here in the North east I have not experienced it while riding my bike. Last Monday I went for a ride alone and came across a realy suspicious character. There was no one around and I had to ride past him. I just waited until I saw another cyclist coming my way and pedaled really fst to go past him at the same time as the other cyclist. But it made me realize how easily I could have been attacked and dragged into the curbside bushes. No one would have seen or heard anything. I would be another statistic. As much as I love to ride I will not ride alone anymore or on the roads. I also plan to buy a 'jogger's pepper spray that can be attached to the wrist and possibly a spring baton that will snap out by pressing a button. The thought of using any weapon really scares me. Definetely stay as far away from a gun if possible, they have guns too. Try to find groups to ride with ie clubs, colleges, at work. I am still trying. I have been somewhat successful inviting people from work to ride once a week. It's sad but the reality is that anyone can be attacked while riding a bike.

[deathintransit]

I have thought of making a banner to wrap around my bag that says "conceal/carry" to make people think twice about wether to harass me or not. I'm a duder so I'm not facing the same kinds of harassment as the women might be. Just the usual get off the road stuff.

When things get out of hand and you're out in the middle of nowhere, I would thing a stungun might be a better way to go than pepper spray. I bring it up for the wind factor. Wind blowing around and a sleezeball is reaching for you, you don't want it spraying passed said perv-o. A stungun would be something where they would be within reach and therefore also way too close for comfort.

Most importantly would probably to get into a martial arts/selfdefense class. Learn lots about yourself and how to project confidance and an attitude of "I will take you down."

When you can get that sort of confidance and start radiating it, then pervotrons will start avoiding you.

[eubi]

The corporate definition of verbal sexual harassment is that it is unwelcome and recurring (by the same person).

On the road, this becomes almost meaningless.

[ehammarlund]

The niftiest anti-rape device I've heard of is a small vial containing what was essentially skunk spray... the user (female) would break it on herself. thus rendering her almost entirely unattractive and not someone you'd want to put in a car. there was a special 'neutralizer' at home which would make the stink go away. the market was small because of the 'eww' factor, but if push came to shove most of the women I talked to would rather use the vial... it followed from the general anti-rape advice which some reccomend, of trying to vomit, ****, convulse, and do anything possible to make yourself too revolting to associate with.

I always thought it made more sense than a weapon, unless it's a gun, _and_ you know how (and are willing and able) to use it. Problem with sprays etc is taht you can get them on you if you spray upwind, they can be taken away and used against you, and the deterrent effect (if you've never been sprayed) isn't as bad as a gun.

Though if this is really deliverace country, youd probably look normal with a shotgun strapped to the handlebars. You'd get more respect, too :D

[77Univega]

--- When I lived in LA I met a woman who liked to walk on the beach in the evening and to keep from getting "hit on" she carried a -bible-. She said they stayed away. So if your bicycle has a pannier or you wear a backpack, try posting some big religious stickers on it.

[slagjumper]

Weapons did not help a whole lot when it was time to "squeel like a piggy". Wear cammo and an orange hat.(?) How about a fake beard? Ditch the fancy primal bike bra. Of course some might be looking for men.

[bcspain]

I do not mean to be a fear-monger, I mentioned this on another thread but when I looked up "sexual harassment" in the forum search, nothing came up -that I could see - and I think this is kind of important.

Does anyone else have a problem with riding on relatively deserted, back-country roads and getting hollered, whistled and honked at, sometimes even stopped, by creeps? The kind that actually stop you to subject you to a truly obscene suggestion? This has happened more often than I would like. I actually stopped riding a while ago because I was, frankly, scared to go out. My fears have subsided with time, but honestly - out there by myself - what could I really do? I live in Deliverance country after all (movie reference)- and I have been stopped two or three times - once while I was just walking somewhere. I don't stop anymore, by the way. I used to think they wanted directions, now I don't care if they do.

My dad wants me to buy a gun and get a liscense to carry it. Ugh! I hate that it comes down to that. Just leave me alone!

Any suggestions? Anybody else?

I live in NW Arkansas, and this is about as "Deliverance" as you can get. You've gotten a lot of advice, some of it good, some not so good. I'll add mine to the mix, if you'd care to read it. First of all, I'd really recommend you find a riding partner or two. You could even get one of those kiddie car trailers and a large, well trained dog as a partner. I liked the combat self defense lessons, that would be of a benefit to you. Personally, even though I own several, I'd pass on the gun if I were you. Carrying one out in the open could make you a target for a "shoot first, steal the gun later" thug, and on a bike, it would be practically impossible to carry one concealed in such a way as it would be accessible if you needed it. Add to that, and I'm not going to sugar coat this, but if you pull a gun even in self defense, you must be prepared and willing to use lethal force. Don't think that you'd just wound him enough to get away. You must be prepared to kill another human being. If you can't do that, you quite probably will wind up being a victim of your own weapon. If you wound him, even if he's the bad guy and it's proven in criminal court, you'll probably be sued in civil court and get hit with a huge settlement. Of course, you have a chance with your own counter-suit, but given the anti-gun sentiment these days, who knows.

Ok, lets say that you have used it. Now what? Your attacker lies dead at your feet. You've called the cops and they have arrived. Guess what, no witnesses, so you are now on your way to jail in handcuffs until the investigation is complete at the very least. Realistically, you'll most likely be arrested even if there are witnesses. By now the news crews have arrived, and you are on the 10 o'clock news. That will probably cost you your job, and maybe even your career even if you are released and the charges dropped.

From my point of view, pepper spray, martial arts of some sort, and a cell phone are your best options.

[Dchiefransom]

Silicon Valley imposes a strict filter? Do you have a secret handshake? The valley has it's share or crooks and pervs also, they just drive better cars.



Ahh, Deliverance was a work of fiction

A significant percentage of the people in this area fit the same bill as the ones in "Deliverance County". Palo Alto is next door to Menlo Park.

[lilHinault]

OK then you have East Palo Alto.......... :-P

[dynaryder]

Ok, lets say that you have used it. Now what? Your attacker lies dead at your feet. You've called the cops and they have arrived. Guess what, no witnesses, so you are now on your way to jail in handcuffs until the investigation is complete at the very least. Realistically, you'll most likely be arrested even if there are witnesses. By now the news crews have arrived, and you are on the 10 o'clock news. That will probably cost you your job, and maybe even your career even if you are released and the charges dropped.

A woman attacked in a lonely area? As long as the gun was legal,I doubt she would be arrested. She'd be taken to the station for an interview,and the gun would be impounded,but I doubt cuffs would be involved. And I can't see how this would effect her career. She was defending herself.

[phinney]

A woman using a firearm in self-defense will almost never have any problems with the law. Also, it's easy to carry concealed on a bike and to have the weapon readily available. From what Crinolin has been experiencing it would be foolish for her to continue riding alone on the back roads without the ability to defend herself. The decision is either limit her riding or be ready to handle a situation that gets out of control.

I strongly recommend talking to the local sheriff about this problem. He'll have a good feel for the potential danger.

Of course, the best thing would be to get a riding partner. A big, burly, well armed one.

[Roody]

A woman using a firearm in self-defense will almost never have any problems with the law. Also, it's easy to carry concealed on a bike and to have the weapon readily available. From what Crinolin has been experiencing it would be foolish for her to continue riding alone on the back roads without the ability to defend herself. The decision is either limit her riding or be ready to handle a situation that gets out of control.
I strongly recommend talking to the local sheriff about this problem. He'll have a good feel for the potential danger.

Of course, the best thing would be to get a riding partner. A big, burly, well armed one.
Why do you say that? I think you are very much overestimating the danger here. Crinolin herself said she does not feel that threatened. She has developed an emergency backup plan. Why should she change her activities on the long shot that something might happen? Yes, check with the sheriff and find out if there have been unsolved assaults on women in the area, indicating a serial perpetrator. If not, continue riding with aplomb. These yahoos are rude and crass--not dangerous. Sometimes, unfortunately, one must have a thick skin when doing things in public.

[sbhikes]

When I was younger I was the target of many of the things you describe. I grew very weary of not being able to go to the beach alone, walk long distances alone, even be on the campus of my high school alone without having to see anatomy I didn't want to see or listen to talk I didn't want to hear. I feel your pain.

At one point, for about 7 years, I sold flowers on the street in a little outdoor shop. Not only sexual creeps bothered me but now I had to deal with robbers and theives, mentally ill people and alcoholics. To top it off, I was not free to just leave or ignore people because I was at my job, pretty much trapped. I also had no phone. I learned a few things from these experiences.

Santa Barbara in the 80s was not and still is not a big city, and the beaches I went to and some of the streets I walked on were remote and isolated. One of the best defenses I could find was to get the heck out of there at the very first sense that something wasn't right. Made me madder than heck as I stormed off down the beach, but what else can you do? Once or twice I even closed the flower shop early. To heck with the boss' profits. One of my co-workers once hit a guy over the head with the money box and told him to f-off. He wasn't expecting that! Most of us women are told to simply give them what they want. Sometimes you can tell some guys are weak enough to be hit over the head.

In less remote places the tactic I learned was to create a scene. Go crazy in a way that was clearly far beyond what anybody would expect. Run into the street and cause a scene. That would usually confuse a robber or crazy person enough to go away. And since this was before cell phones -- and often when I was working I had no access to a phone at all -- sometimes other people would call the cops for me and come over and chase the guy away for me.

Another tactic, the one I used the most often, was to threaten to call the police if the person did not leave immediately, and then go do it. I called the police a lot and felt like an idiot for doing so but better safe than sorry. Many times the person left before I got my money into the phone. Other times they were stopped or even taken to the mental hospital where they belonged.

In the era of cell phones I think calling the police on the spot and taking photos is a great idea. It will help you most of the time. It may not help you with a true sociopath, however. Someone who really will harm you. But with the flashers and the creeps and the crazies and theives it works pretty well to tell them you're calling the cops and then do it. Never threaten and not follow through, though.

[bcspain]

A woman using a firearm in self-defense will almost never have any problems with the law. Also, it's easy to carry concealed on a bike and to have the weapon readily available. From what Crinolin has been experiencing it would be foolish for her to continue riding alone on the back roads without the ability to defend herself. The decision is either limit her riding or be ready to handle a situation that gets out of control.

I strongly recommend talking to the local sheriff about this problem. He'll have a good feel for the potential danger.

Of course, the best thing would be to get a riding partner. A big, burly, well armed one.

Well, I can only speak for what happens around here. This situation has arisen a few times, and the shooter, male or female, is almost always taken in to custody, even if charges are not filed. What it boils down to is that they are just unwilling to take a chance on the person running or causing other problems until they know what actually went down.. On the other hand, sometimes it's to keep the victim safe from retribution. That usually only lasts a day, till the preliminary investigation is complete. If the story adds up, the person is released.

All I was trying to say was if the choice is made to carry, be prepared for all possible consequences. Our legal system is the best in the world as far as I'm concerned, but it is administered by people, who, like it or not, are swayed by thier own opinions. Sometimes they make the wrong choices, and people who should be free go to jail, and some who should be in jail are not.

I am not anti-gun, don't get me wrong. Very much the reverse in fact. I own several, and carry from time to time. I just wanted to bring to light the possibilities. I wasn't saying that it would happen but simply that it could.

Carrying any kind of weapon bears enormous responsibility, whether it's a firearm or a sock with a roll of quarters in the end. You have to be prepared to use it, know how to use it, and be strong enough to face what ever comes afterwards. Some, and I daresay most, people would see a woman who kills an attacker as brave, even heroic. I would number among those. Like it or not, however, there is an element that would make her out to be the bad guy, a nut on the loose just looking for a reason to use that gun. This type of thing happens to rape victims all the time. The idiots (usually the defense lawyer) will make the victim out to have been "asking for it" by being alone in a dark alley, or wearing provocative clothing, or other such nonsense. It's not right, but it happens.

All I'm saying is be prepared for it.

[Bikepacker67]

there is an element that would make her out to be the bad guy,

Yes that is true.

But like the ol' saying goes:
"I'd rather be judged by twelve, then carried by six"

[Dchiefransom]

Why do you say that? I think you are very much overestimating the danger here. Crinolin herself said she does not feel that threatened. She has developed an emergency backup plan. Why should she change her activities on the long shot that something might happen? Yes, check with the sheriff and find out if there have been unsolved assaults on women in the area, indicating a serial perpetrator. If not, continue riding with aplomb. These yahoos are rude and crass--not dangerous. Sometimes, unfortunately, one must have a thick skin when doing things in public.

She said that she was actually stopped by some of the people, and was scared to go out. That sounds pretty threatened to me.

[Crinolin]

Why do you say that? I think you are very much overestimating the danger here. Crinolin herself said she does not feel that threatened. She has developed an emergency backup plan. Why should she change her activities on the long shot that something might happen? Yes, check with the sheriff and find out if there have been unsolved assaults on women in the area, indicating a serial perpetrator. If not, continue riding with aplomb. These yahoos are rude and crass--not dangerous. Sometimes, unfortunately, one must have a thick skin when doing things in public.

I don't want to be riding and falsely thinking that "It will never happen to me." People get attacked all the time and deserted roads are the perfect place for it. That is in fact why I was motivated to write in this thread, to see if there was something else I could do besides just hope that this time I would be ok. I was riding with aplomb, until I was stopped a couple times - now I ride with nervousness and I want to get back some of the old confidence, without the naivete.

[Roody]

I don't want to be riding and falsely thinking that "It will never happen to me." People get attacked all the time and deserted roads are the perfect place for it. That is in fact why I was motivated to write in this thread, to see if there was something else I could do besides just hope that this time I would be ok. I was riding with aplomb, until I was stopped a couple times - now I ride with nervousness and I want to get back some of the old confidence, without the naivete.
I am so sorry--I misread your second post, and thought you meant that you have gone back to riding with no further serious problems. Please forgive my carelessness.

[Guest]

I carry mace and I got no problems with using it.

When I'm alone, I get all kinds of problems, from nasty glances to catcalls, whistles, and everything in between. I've even been followed and chased.

It is not so bad here in northern Virginia. I mostly feel pretty safe here, but I still carry mace with me every single ride.

A gun might be overdoing it, but if you can get a small bottle of mace, do what I do- I have a strap that goes around my neck with a detachable bottom part where the mace is attached. If something happens and I am knocked off my bike, I can still detatch my mace and spray.

That, plus a few moves I picked up from self-defense classes is all I think I need to defend myself, just in case.

Koffee

[Don Gwinn]

Time to pop a couple of weapon myths, and this is why I suggested www.thehighroad.org or www.thefiringline.com. You wouldn't go there to get advice on the best clipless pedals, and I wouldn't come here to learn about concealed carry, no offense.

I also plan to buy a 'jogger's pepper spray that can be attached to the wrist and possibly a spring baton that will snap out by pressing a button. The thought of using any weapon really scares me. Definetely stay as far away from a gun if possible, they have guns too.
The thought of using any weapon scares you, but you've got two of them picked out to use. :) Pepper spray and batons are both weapons, and depending on how you use one, a baton can certainly be considered deadly force, occupying the same spot on a force continuum as a gun. Now, the baton gives you better options for lower levels of force IF YOU ARE TRAINED IN ITS USE. But remember that means really trained, not that somebody showed you how to use it a couple of times. When you're fighting for your life, you will revert to your training, NOT rise to the occasion.

Pepper spray is good and useful stuff, but it has some serious disadvantages as opposed to a firearm. Its one great advantage is that it is generally non-lethal, but:

1. Both are very likely to stop an assailant, but pepper spray has a better chance of failing to stop him than a pistol. There are a certain number of people who are unfazed by pepper spray and a much larger number (though still fairly infrequent) who are simply able to fight through it. Pepper spray is a pain compliance weapon. It does NOT physically, biomechanically incapacitate an attacker and make his will to hurt you irrelevant. If he's mad enough or tough enough, he can still get to you.
Far fewer people can keep coming after you when they're bleeding out and/or significant amounts of their central nervous system have been destroyed. Of course, with a firearm, that requires good hits, and pistols certainly are not 100% stoppers either. Nothing is.

2. Pepper spray may hit you as hard or harder than your assailant, particularly bad when you need to jump on a bike to get away. The solution to this, if it's some weirdo who pulled over to grab you, might be to steal HIS car and leave your bike. Call the police instanter, of course. :)

but if push came to shove most of the women I talked to would rather use the vial... it followed from the general anti-rape advice which some reccomend, of trying to vomit, ****, convulse, and do anything possible to make yourself too revolting to associate with.
I would be VERY surprised to learn that this method has been shown to work. Most rapists are more angry than attracted to the victim, particularly the relatively rare guy who attacks a stranger. I put this kind of advice on same shelf as "put your keys between your fingers and do the Five Deadly Shaolin Claw Technique" and "Shout fire, because no one will come if you shout rape, but at least this way they'll send some firemen." Nonsense.

When things get out of hand and you're out in the middle of nowhere, I would thing a stungun might be a better way to go than pepper spray. I bring it up for the wind factor. Wind blowing around and a sleezeball is reaching for you, you don't want it spraying passed said perv-o. A stungun would be something where they would be within reach and therefore also way too close for comfort.
You make a good point about pepper spray in the wind, but a stun gun is not the answer for the simple reason that they generally really, really suck and do not work as advertised. If you can get over the hype, you can hold most stun guns to your chest, trigger the stun gun, and walk around. It'll hurt, but you will NOT drop. Pepper spray is much better even with its drawbacks, if only because it is actually effective and a stun gun is not.
The only contact "stun gun" I would trust would be the Taser International model, which can be used with the cartridge removed at contact distances, but that's still not a good idea for the purposes of this thread IMHO. First of all, the thing costs four times as much as a gun that would handle her needs better. But more importantly, it is not designed to drop and stop an attacker for more than five seconds at a time, and it will not. When you "Tase" your attacker, he'll catch holy hell for five seconds or so. It will feel like someone lit him on fire, and he will probably fall. That's the good news.
The bad news for you is that the reason the cops like this thing is that they surround the goober with officers before they tase him (when they can) and pig-pile him before he recovers. It takes timing and superior numbers to do it right. You have neither. You want him to stop his attack and stay stopped as you exit the scene for safety. The Taser will not make him do this. He'll be hurting for those five seconds, but if he's the kind of guy who still wants to hurt you when his seconds are up, there's nothing to stop him from bouncing back up and coming again. You can cycle it again (if he doesn't pull the wires out) but you run out of juice or he closes the gap eventually if you play that game.
So, in short:
"Stun Guns" = "T3h Suck"
"Taser" = "Better, does what it's designed to do"
"Taser" = "NOT a fight-stopper for a single person who needs to escape"



I know a lot of the suggestions of flashing a gun to intimidate are tongue-in-cheek, but that's another thing I wouldn't want to do. If someone is intimidated by your weapon and you don't have to shoot him, that's wonderful, but if you're relying on that to happen then someone will call your bluff and you'll come out the loser. In order to use your weapon to intimidate an attacker, you must be totally ready and willing to use it.

[Don Gwinn]

BCSpain is giving very good advice. Another old saying among shooters, though not as old as "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" goes something like "If you have to shoot in self defense, assume it will cost you $10,000 before it's over."

This is called Problem Number 2. Ignore it at your peril. Like BCSpain, I think a gun is the most sensible weapon for a person who is able, willing, ready and trained to use it. You need to think about these things BEFORE you go out with any weapon.

One thing about martial arts before I go: be CHOOSY. There are a million fakers out there, McDojos and worse, who will promise to make you into a killing machine in no time. They're lying. The only people who are going to teach you to fight are the ones who are going to have you hit, kick, throw and lock other people and have them do it back to you. If they tell you their style is too deadly for sparring or too dangerous to be used in competition, run away! There are many good styles and several bad ones, but there are probably 50 lousy teachers for every one capable of teaching you to fight for real.
www.bullshido.net



You've done the biggest thing already. You were aware of your environment, you identified a possible threat (no, you're not being paranoid, "woofing" like this can often be a planned prelude to an attack as a way of gauging your reactions) and you're doing something about it rather than pretending that the bad stuff will happen to someone else. That puts you well ahead of most of the population.

[Nicodemus]

To add another bleating voice of agreement...

Pepper spray and self-defense training would be your most useful and reasonable options.

I get very depressed reading about all the creeps and weirdos out there that continually get away with what they do. If and when I have children, I will get them into some basic self-defense training simply because I'd worry myself sick about all the walking arse-warts out there.

[outashape]

I have been followed many times and have felt threatened. As a result, I try to ride in busier areas and take my chances with cars. On one Rail Trail out in the country, I had a car waiting down the road every time the path crossed a major road. That time I threw the bike in the ravine and hid for about 30 minutes (terrified of snakes) until the driver pulled away. Every so often I commute to work. Last night I cycled 25 miles in the dark. I feel much safer when I disguise myself as a male. I will wear a tight sports bra and a shirt that I have sewn shoulder pads on. I will braid my hair and then glue on a fake mustache.

I have a new cell phone that takes pictures. I have a plan with my husband. Every time I feel "strange" or see the same car more than twice I will take a picture and e-mail the picture to him. A month ago, an older fellow was at 3 separate areas in the park where I cycle. I had already cycled with my club and wanted to put in more mileage. I took my cell phone out and took his picture and then cycled around the back of his car and took a picture of his license plate. He probably doesn't know about cameras in the phones, but he wasn't comfortable with me circling him. I e-mailed my husband with the picture and then called him and told him I was okay, but come and get me if I don't call back in 10 minutes. Other times, when I have been stalked, I stopped and hid for a while until the car passes in the other direction. So far, no one has been aggressive. I try to dress conservatively when I cycle by myself. I will adjust my lifestyle, but I will not quit doing the things I like. I can wear the women specific jerseys when I ride with someone. I usually go away on trips about every 2-3 weeks in the summer by myself. I vary the location. I think the safest time to ride by yourself is in the early morning--at least before noon. The pervs get up late, are bored and go out looking afterward.

[emilymildew]

Are you complaining or bragging?

Are you kidding? Are you that clueless, or do you really not understand how horrific it is to be yelled at while minding your own business walking down the street?

Jeez.

[Roody]

Practical advice for the real world, where Rambo is just a movie:

I have worked on psychiatric units for 26 years and have had plenty of chances to learn and practice self-defense skills. I also have always lived in inner city areas of Detroit and other tough cities, so I have had many street encounters with bad guys.

Self-defense techniques (and pepper spray) are often effective but should be a last resort when you are threatened by street crime or assault. Other methods might serve you even better. I offer these non-physical interventions for your consideration:

For starters, never allow a stranger to get close to you. Order them to get away from you as soon as they start to approach. I don't care if it's a crack dealer or a nice looking guy in a blue blazer--order him away. Speak in a loud and firm voice. Say, "You are too close to me. Back off now!" A decent person will always obey such an order. A bad guy will disobey the order, but you will have extra time for step two. As you are ordering them away, back off yourself. Ride circles around him if there is enough space. Keep looking around in case he has friends approaching. Out on the street, I would never let a stranger approach closer than 4 or 5 steps. Remember: anybody who invades your personal space is a bad guy who is preparing to hurt you.

Step two is, If you are on a bike, use your bike. I don't mean use it as a weapon. Use it to run away! Practice fast sprints from a standstill in all your gears. The second someone disobeys your order to stay away, take off. The slowest rider with a small head start can usually beat a very fast runner. (Although a pack of runners might hunt you down.) You can often "outrun" cars if you use evasive maneuvers, as a bike can turn much faster and cut across yards, parks, etc.

Sorry, but I don't think the cell phone will do you much good in the real world. You can sit there dialing it, but that is really just a bluff. A bad guy may steal the phone or knock it out of your hand. Even if you do get through to the cops, the dispatcher will ask you 10 stupid questions. It will take help 3 minutes to 30 minutes to arrive, and even stupid criminals know this. It's better to use the time to ride away.

My main point is: Ride away from anybody who tries to get close to you, no matter what they say or what they look like. Don't talk to them, don't explain yourself, don't threaten to call the cops, just get away fast. When a bad guy first approaches you, he has not yet decided what he is going to do. He wants to see if you have anything worth taking, or if you have a weapon, or if you are going to be a compliant little victim. Some bad guys will decide what to do in one second, others might take much longer. Use that time to get the hell away!

[bcspain]

Roody is right. Flight is the best possible option. Any sort of combat should be a last resort. To quote another of my favorite movie characters "Fighting always bad, but if must fight...WIN".

That may not be an exact quote, but you get the idea.

[CRUM]

Like Roody, I spent many of my younger years working and living in the tougher areas of Baltimore, MD. I always found putting one foot in front of the other the wise choice in most situations. Especially when confronted by more than one person.

But sometimes going automatic happens. I had an encounter once when delivering some machinery in NYC in the clothing district. A fellow came into the back of the trailer and was obviously attempting to rob me. It was the knife he held that gave me the clue. I had no where to go. So I picked up a refrigerator dolly and clocked him hard. Although I did not intend it, he ended up in the hospital for a few days and I ended up in jail for a few hours until things got sorted out. The cops told me I should have just given him my wallet instead of fighting. I'm sorry but I was not considering my wallet at the time. A knife means only one thing. A threat to my life. And since I had no escape, I responded accordingly. Given the hassle afterword, letting him have the $40 or so in my wallet might have been a wiser choice. But I did not think about that. It was the knife that set me off in an instant self-defense mode.

What does that have to do with your situation? Well, of all the advice you have been given, the gun one seems to be the one with the biggest potential for trouble. I hurt a perp attempting to rob me and I was the one dragged down to the precinct. Had I been carrying a gun, he might have been killed. It would not have broken my heart, but I assume the time I spent dealing with the aftermath would have entailed hiring a lawer, a loss of my job, and maybe even jail time. Carrying a gun is an awful responsibilty. Not to be taken lightly as some on this board seem to indicate.

[Linchpin]

Take not of license plate
call police
tell them that you felt this person was going to sexually assault you but it was thwarted by another car driving by (embellish it a little but don't go to far with it, just let them know you were scared)
After the police contact the person I'm sure they'll think twice about doing it again

[Don Gwinn]

Roody is making good sense. A weapon should be used to give more options in addition to the kind of awareness he's advocating, NOT to try to replace it. Nothing will replace it.



CRUM, you did the right thing. You didn't know whether he wanted only your wallet or not. I understand why the police tell people that, but your way worked. Alternatively, you could have given him your wallet and then fought if that didn't satisfy him, but that doesn't always work, either, and it's the sort of thing you have to have planned for yourself in advance. In the moment is the wrong time to be planning such strategic matters. Better to go into every day with a clearly defined line you won't allow anyone to cross and then stick to that.

You're probably right about the disadvantages of a gun in your case (assuming you'd been forced to fire it, which is usually not required in a defensive gun use, but we said we weren't going to count on that!)

You've left out the advantage, though, which is that the gun would give you much better odds many situations where your improvised club would have failed you. Multiple attackers, closer quarters, fighting on after an injury--these things go a lot better with a firearm, but in return you accept that some people are going to try to make life hard for you even when you're right. And yes, you have to be ready to accept the responsibility.