Folding Bikes - raleigh twenty ?s

i've just started working on an old raleigh twenty (actually it's a philips twenty, but i'm pretty sure it's the same thing under a different name that raleigh used... correct me if i'm wrong). i'm making it into a fixed gear machine and i've got a couple questions for those who came before me.

#1 the steerer on the forks has this weird cut-out thing on the threads, used originally for the quick release stem, i reckon. is it possible to use this fork with a regular headset? it came with a weird little plastic bushing instead of bearings.

#2 bottom bracket... is there a cheap, reliable sealed cartridge that i could easily install?

thanks folks. i'm sure i'll have many more queries before this project is completed. learning the ins and outs of old folders is like starting from scratch again...

Not sure about the fork. I found one website that seems to say you can use the stock fork with a bearing headset. I use a suspension fork on mine.

From http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/twenty.htm :
"Following in their footsteps, Chris Slydel, a British ex-pat who lives in the USA, has built a high performance Raleigh Twenty ... Chris re-threaded the bottom bracket shell, which allowed him to fit a standard thread titanium BB. He also threaded the top section of the fork at the top, to allow the fitting of a standard headset, and not the solid nylon top bearing that Raleigh initially put on the machines."

Sheldon Brown has some info on options for the bottom bracket at http://sheldonbrown.org/raleigh-twenty.html . I use a Shimano UN72 and Phil Wood bottom bracket rings (expensive) in mine. Unfortunately he UN72 is out of production, though they still show up on ebay and in LBS's sometimes.

For more info, see:
http://sheldonbrown.org/raleigh-twenty.html
http://home.comcast.net/~cheg01/r20.html

thanks. did you find that one of your bottom bracket cups was welded in place? i can't get the left side out and the guys at my local bike shop say that all old british bikes tack welded the cups in there. how much did you end up spending on the whole bottom bracket, if you don't mind me asking? i think i'll probably go for the sheldon brown approach with the modified bmx fork.

Without going out and measuring mine, I'm not sure you would have a lot of room after threading the steerer tube on the stock fork.

The tube is ISO so you can use a 1" threaded fork, though you may have a time finding one with a long enough steerer tube. I've found mostly 6 1/8" or so for stock BMX forks, which is too short.. I'll likely end up cutting down the head tube (from the top) to fit a shorter steering tube on the fork. You may find one long enough, stock, from someplace like gaerlan's (http://www.gaerlan.com) in the parts section.

I'm in the process of costing out rebuilding mine for touring and I'm rapidly getting discouraged. I'll try to post more as the process proceeds...

There is no sign of tack welding on the cups I took out. I might have filed it off, I don't remember.

The total cost of the bottom bracket was:
$44 Phil Wood Rings
$24 Phill Wood Ring tools
$15 UN72 sealed bearing
______________
$89

This bothered me at the time when I had recently bought the bike for $104 including shipping. Since then I stopped counting at around $850 invested and that was before the last redesign. I don't doubt it's over $1000 by now. Probably could have bought a used Bike Friday for that. I get a lot of fun out of the bike though, it's worth it to me to have one that's unique that I built up myself.

Spending on a bike is like the frog sitting in a pan on the stove. If you turn it up slowly enough he'll be boiled before he notices the heat.

For the fork, the steerer has to be almost 240mm for a threaded headset, even longer for threadless. I bought one with a 240mm threadless and could not get the stem clamped on properly. I had to get it threaded at a local bike builders shop.

i've just started working on an old raleigh twenty (actually it's a philips twenty, but i'm pretty sure it's the same thing under a different name that raleigh used... correct me if i'm wrong).

Pictures?

I doubt that the fixed cup is welded in. It's an old bike so it might take serious muscle to get it out, and when you do, it's a non-standard thread and width. You can try to salvage the cups and replace the axel, or rethread the shell, or use a Phil Wood BB, or Phil Wood rings with a Shimano UN72. Biketoolsetc.com has an inexpensive sealed BB that doesn't use any threads, but you may need to make the shell narrower to use it.

Pictures?

i took a couple with the trusty 35mm instamatic, no digital photos here. once they're developed i'll scan them and you can have a look. the bike looks just like a raleigh except where you'd expect to see "raleigh", it says "philips".

i think i'm going to go the easy, cheap route with the bb and keep the old cups with a new spindle. it's been a long time since i've messed with a bb that wasn't the cartridge type... i can picture the loose balls rolling across the basement floor as i speak.

the old BB is a real pig to get out..if the bearing surface is OK leave it in just a little longer...C M Grange (an English company) is planning to release later this year square taper axles in the correct shell size for the 20 and also the Moulton Mk III, in the meantime find some old steel 5 pin cottered cranks ( i got a pair of 6 1/2 " BSA 5 pin racing cranks fora tenner) and run a TA ring (loads of sizes /easily available both new and second hand) this works well.


Steve... ,Chesterfield,England

There is no sign of tack welding on the cups I took out. I might have filed it off, I don't remember.

The total cost of the bottom bracket was:
$44 Phil Wood Rings
$24 Phill Wood Ring tools
$15 UN72 sealed bearing
______________
$89

This bothered me at the time when I had recently bought the bike for $104 including shipping. Since then I stopped counting at around $850 invested and that was before the last redesign. I don't doubt it's over $1000 by now. Probably could have bought a used Bike Friday for that. I get a lot of fun out of the bike though, it's worth it to me to have one that's unique that I built up myself.

Spending on a bike is like the frog sitting in a pan on the stove. If you turn it up slowly enough he'll be boiled before he notices the heat.

For the fork, the steerer has to be almost 240mm for a threaded headset, even longer for threadless. I bought one with a 240mm threadless and could not get the stem clamped on properly. I had to get it threaded at a local bike builders shop.
Not to throw sand on anyone's chain, but you can buy a new Dahon coaster brake bike with a chromoly frame, V-brakes and alloy rims for under $200. You can get a Dahon with 21 gears for under $1000. Raliegh 20s were good bikes, but if you are taller than 5'10" you'll need an extended seat post, the handlebars will still be too close and it will still have those weak caliper brakes.
Maybe it's time to give up on those old Ralieghs.

Eddy

"Not to throw sand on anyone's chain, but you can buy a new Dahon coaster brake bike with a chromoly frame, V-brakes and alloy rims for under $200. You can get a Dahon with 21 gears for under $1000. Raliegh 20s were good bikes, but if you are taller than 5'10" you'll need an extended seat post, the handlebars will still be too close and it will still have those weak caliper brakes.
Maybe it's time to give up on those old Ralieghs."

of course there is the idea that fixing up old things, like obsolete bicycles, is a fun, rewarding hobbie. or the notion that an interesting and unique bike is a work of art. understandably, buying a brand new bike is going to be easier but as motorhead once said (and i'm certain they were referring to restoring old raleighs...), "the chase is better than the catch".

Sure, you can do that. Why build a hotrod when you can buy a PT Cruiser or Chrysler Prowler for less? Probably more practical too.

Or you can have something unique that you built yourself.

.C M Grange (an English company) is planning to release later this year square taper axles in the correct shell size for the 20 and also the Moulton Mk III
Steve... ,Chesterfield,EnglandSteve,
Would it be possible for you to provide contact info for CM Grange?
I'd love to put shorter, lighter cranks on my wife's MkIII.

Not to throw sand on anyone's chain, but you can buy a new Dahon coaster brake bike with a chromoly frame, V-brakes and alloy rims for under $200. You can get a Dahon with 21 gears for under $1000. Raliegh 20s were good bikes, but if you are taller than 5'10" you'll need an extended seat post, the handlebars will still be too close and it will still have those weak caliper brakes. Maybe it's time to give up on those old Ralieghs.
Eddy

All very true, depending on the intended use. Apart from the re-use/conservationist view expressed by Andy (which I also subscribe to) I'm looking for something for loaded touring. The price range pickin's get a lot slimmer. I don't have the $ to drop on Dahon Speed TR or Bike Friday. What also mystifies me, is that many contemporary folders use a vertical hinge. Bikes like the Dahon Helios use an additional strut, but I wonder about the stability of a vertical hinge when loaded. No experience for that, just that an oblique hinge seems much more rationale. There are many other downsides to the 20 (short chainstays is the biggest one in my application), but as much as I've sunk into it, it will still be a fun ride if nothing else.

C M Grange number is 01279758718, they also stock 16x 1 3/8" alloy rims drilled 28 or plain to drill yourself and may stock some 20" alloy rims too as well as a host of other axles hub bits etc..note the twenty /mk3 axles should be available later this year though not as yet.


Steve, Chesterfield,England

[FONT=Arial Narrow]Hey there seems when i got my little tommy twenty project i didn't think anyone else had ruded one up before. Obviously been banging my head in a locked barn for a while i see.... Wonder if you could tell me the lenth of the shimano bottom bracket you used ? Some nice looking conversions out there have you seen the one with mag wheels floating around the net ... If I find it again i'll pop a link on
Cheers in advance Timbob

To answer one of Andy's original questions... I have just updated my page http://www.rhizomes.nl/twenty.html

And in it i include my solution for the bottom bracket, namely a different/other solution than most people (even experts) recommend for Twenties. And it is affordable. My local bike store explained that *** (yes that's what the brand is called) make some excellent cartridge bottom brackets, that are even used on some Koga Miyata bikes. The shells are made of hard plastic and some of the versions don't even have threading. Those versions are made to be hammered into Thompson brackets and since the moving parts are in the cartridge the outer part of the shell doesn't need to be mounted rock solid in the frame. As long as it is stuck in fairly good.

Philipsen recommended installing a BSA *** Bracket with standard 24 TPI threading and a 137 mm axle. He knew from experience that the bracket would go in just fine and that the plastic threading of the shells might be mangled a bit but my bikes metal threading would be just fine (meaning that in the future i could always install other brackets, even with 'proper' threading if desired). The end result was a cheap, durable bracket replacement that feels very stable and smooth.

I hope that makes some sense.

Cheers.

That's very nice. Do you have a part number for the *** bearing? What kind of fork did you get?

Hey Cheg,

Thanks for your reply. I was beginning i made some 'faux pas' or something since my other posts remain(ed) without replies. I don't have a part number for the *** but could get it for you if you like. As for the page/Twenty, you've seen nothing yet ha ha. I updated it again today. Hopefully i will be adding new pictures soonish which will properly show off the many new parts. It has turned into a remarkable machine indeed. As for the make of fork. I could find out as well if you'd like. It is just a chromed replacement fork with a very long tube that you have to cut to size. It has a sticker with a gold 'H' logo on it, but that is rather obscure i know. It is of much sturdier construction (fits fat tires) than the original raleigh but not super light (not too much more than the stock fork) or fancy metal. It has less rake than the stock and with the new super smooth headset i can now ride without hands without much difficulty. The new fork is definately good enough and cheap!

I can also really recomend the Tioga tires! What great speed and comfort!

My Twenty has cost E 370 total which to me seems like lots of cash but i guess it is very relative. Not so much for the amazing parts it now sports/in comparison with what some other people spend.

If anyone else has feedback, i would digg that.

V.

Hey Cheg,

Thanks for your reply. I was beginning i made some 'faux pas' or something since my other posts remain(ed) without replies. I don't have a part number for the *** but could get it for you if you like. As for the page/Twenty, you've seen nothing yet ha ha. I updated it again today. Hopefully i will be adding new pictures soonish which will properly show off the many new parts. It has turned into a remarkable machine indeed. As for the make of fork. I could find out as well if you'd like. It is just a chromed replacement fork with a very long tube that you have to cut to size. It has a sticker with a gold 'H' logo on it, but that is rather obscure i know. It is of much sturdier construction (fits fat tires) than the original raleigh but not super light (not too much more than the stock fork) or fancy metal. It has less rake than the stock and with the new super smooth headset i can now ride without hands without much difficulty. The new fork is definately good enough and cheap!

It's a threaded steerer tube on the fork, right? I have not found any with steerers long enought, over 250mm long. I had to buy a threadless and have the threads cut at a bike repair shop.


I can also really recomend the Tioga tires! What great speed and comfort!

I have not tried Comp Pools but as you say they are famous for low rolling resistance. I use Primo Comets right now which are the next best thing and much easier to find here.


My Twenty has cost E 370 total which to me seems like lots of cash but i guess it is very relative. Not so much for the amazing parts it now sports/in comparison with what some other people spend.

Don't worry, I probably have about $1000 US invested in mine. I have changed it several times and have enough parts to build two if I can find another frame. :rolleyes:

Yeah i am almost sure it was threaded but i'll ask my bike shop. It being a replacement fork means it has a crazy long steerer with thread running for most of the length. You just saw it to size. Good stuff. I got a 24 inch version on my ATB/City Tank bike as well (i wrecked the original fork in an accident) for about 8 months now and i am happy with it. Very sturdy, just bit heavier than a more expensive (tend to be double or triple the cost here) version. The 26 version has cantilever option the 20 inch can be bought with braze ons or without i think.

good news about that bottom bracket. my next payout for my 20 was going to be sending away for the phil bb cups and tool. i've been putting it off in hopes that i'd find some other, cheaper solution. here's to procrastination!

now, let me get this straight. you just jam the cups in? or do you screw them into the wrongly threaded bb threading? i'm sceptical to say the least, although i'm willing to try.

anyone know if these bbs can be ordered in n.america (prefferably canada)?

Yeah i am almost sure it was threaded but i'll ask my bike shop. It being a replacement fork means it has a crazy long steerer with thread running for most of the length. You just saw it to size. Good stuff. I got a 24 inch version on my ATB/City Tank bike as well (i wrecked the original fork in an accident) for about 8 months now and i am happy with it. Very sturdy, just bit heavier than a more expensive (tend to be double or triple the cost here) version. The 26 version has cantilever option the 20 inch doesn't.

So is the crown drilled for caliper brakes? Too bad about the cantilevers. It would be cool if it had a disk brake mount. Does your local bike shop sell international mail orders? :p

I'll try to find out the model numbers/brands of both parts soonish.

@ Andy. No no you don't jam the cups, you just screw them in and as the TPi is not so very different (26 and 24) it goes in quite easily, towards the end the going gets a bit tougher but that's it. My local bike store has never told me any BS yet (far from it) and he seemed very confident about this solution. If you can't find the *** and if you'd like we could work something out, i could buy it for you and send it. Trying shouldn't be a big risk as the *** is cheap (see my page for details). Lemme know. Oh yeah i also have some Red Alert LED's (amazing things, no batteries ever, sadly out of production) for sale. Maybe i should start a mail order here ha ha. Holland has amazing parts/deals sometimes.

@ Cheg. Same for you, if you can't find it i could send it. I am not even sure about the caliper thang, will chk though i would be very amazed if it didn't have the hole. The cantilever thing, well you could have it brazed. Disk brake,.. uhm no afraid not, it really isn't that high end. But more than servicable and cheapo.

As for mail orders, i am sure my 'Olde Shoppe' does not, i know for a fact they don't even have a website. But perhaps i will get into the mail order bizz :)

Hey by the way, you guys know of a place or site to date your Twenty. Mine has a real clear serial NR on the drops outs.

Cheers.

Hey by the way, you guys know of a place or site to date your Twenty. Mine has a real clear serial NR on the drops outs.

Cheers.

This might help:
http://retroraleighs.com/dating.html

a good way to date your twenty is by checking out the date stamp on the rear hub. all the sturmey archer hubs have a two digit number stamped on them. if it's the original hub, that should tell you the year it was made.

yes, i'd very much be into working out some sort of a plan to get one of those bbs. if there's any canadian only merch you're looking for i'd be happy to return the favour. let me know how much you'd need, including postage, etc. where are you? a'dam?

Hey Andy,

Yeh being an SA afficionado i thought about that dating method. But my 20 came with a (stock) single speed non SA hub. One of the cheaper versions i guess. No date stamp on it although i should look once more carefully.

As for the bracket. Ok then, should be no problem i think. I'll get on it, though it may take me a few days to 2 weeks max. I'll have to look into postage and such. But i think all told it would be anywhere from us 25 to us 55 for everything. Most likely somewhere in the middle. The BB isn't too heavy or big owing to the plastic "cups". I'll post more when i know more.

I am located in Rotterdam.


@Cheg, I checked it out and the fork is drilled for calipers.

Also i have taken lots of pictures of the final incarnation today. These include close ups of the BB, Fork and almost all the other bits. Hopefully i'll have a chance to update my pagein the next few days.

Allright, today i went all out for you guys and picked my favorite mechanics' brain. This is what i learned:

The Replacement fork is not really a 'brand' or model as such, they are made and sold in bulk to bike stores by a company called Akiru.

The denomination which my bike store gives 'em when he wants one is:

"Universal replacement fork, 20 * 1.75 with the longest threaded stem" (yes, it is threaded, you don't have to have your store do it :) ).

The price my bike shop charges for the fork is E 22,50. He is not totally sure but he thinks a version is available that is suitable for cantilevers too!! How is that! He thinks if it is available the price difference is rather minimal.
He does recommend using the fork with a good/decent headset such as the Tange Levin for a smooth/stable ride. The fork is not machined/welded to such precision as forks that cost double or triple of course.

He can also order a totally different 20 inch fork that has good suspension and disk brake mountings but that one costs at least 3 times as much, possibly 5 times. If any of you are interested i can have him inquire next time.

Ok, now for the long story on the Bottom Bracket. I wrote down everything i could.


It is interesting because it seems to represent a different/other solution than most people (even experts) recommend for Twenties. And it is affordable. Philipsen explained that *** (yes that's what the brand is called) make some excellent cartridge bottom brackets, that are even used on some Koga Miyata bikes. The shells are made of hard plastic and some of the versions don't even have threading. Those versions are made to be hammered into Thompson bracket mounts/cylinders and since the moving parts are in the cartridge the outer part of the shell doesn't need to be mounted rock solid in the frame. As long as it is stuck in fairly good.

Philipsen recommended installing a BSA *** Bracket with standard 24 TPI threading and a 137 mm axle. He knew from experience that the bracket would go in just fine and that the plastic threading of the shells might be mangled a bit (it is only 2 turns of threading per inch difference after all) but my bikes metal threading would be just fine (meaning that in the future i could always install other brackets, even with 'proper' threading if desired). Not the most elegant solution. But importantly the end result was a cheap (way cheaper than most alternatives) durable bracket replacement that feels very stable and smooth.

The box in which the *** is sold says:

***
Cotterles 132 / 28 v
NR 9 6000
BAC BV Leiden.

The last two lines are redundant as they are only in use by/for the wholesaler that services my bike store.. i think.

Then there is the "cups" they are really more like plastic holders (see picture below) that screw into the bike frame. One side is fixed. The other side is used to adjust/mount the bearing unit. That side will have "*** Germany" molded in the plastic.

My bike store can definately sell me the following sizes (axle length in mm) 110, 113, 118,5, 122,5, 132 and possibly more.

He mounted a long 132 MM one on my bike because i have some thick BMX style cranks and my Nexus hub has back cog which is dished outwards. He achieved a nice and straight chainline. If you order a BB through me or anyone else you should measure how long of an axle you need. The old axle/cranks/chainline and a Caliper should help with this.

My mechanic also related that the Difference in TPI is a non issue in his experience. He has mounted them many times and they have given him no problems. He said you can actually turn the "cup" in by hand with only some force, so almost no chance of messing up your bikes metal thread. He sells them for E 18,50 although they price could vary a little bit depending on size.

He also told there is another brand called Kinex which makes a very simliar/clone product but that is really not as good so not really worth buying. Not even sure if they are cheaper. If you come across a Kinex you can recognize it because it the Barrel/integrated bearing unit of the BB reads:

Slovakia Kinex ... etc

Adjustable side/cup side also has information printed in the plastic, for example:

Made in Slovakia, Kinex 1,37 * 24 tpi RH

As i couldn't find the *** homepage it could be handy to check the Kinex homepage it has lots of info which will give you an idea of the construction and appearance of the ***.

http://www.kinex.sk/Katalog/tab1_en.html

I don't think the Kinex is horrible or anything, so if you can't find the ***...

I( TAKE THAT SHELDON!!! , Ha ha, only kidding, Sheldon is and always will be Bike God, Goeroe and Optimus Prime, i can't thank/praise that guy enough!)

The *** particular bracket i used looks quite a lot like this Kinex one, except the axle width is longer and the axle itself is gold colored. Also the barrel is thinner and has more metalic appearance. But it gives a general idea.

This bracket also enabled me to install cotterless Alu cranks.

Also i double checked this BB method. I went to one of the most reputable bike stores in Rotterdam (Biker's Best) that sells and services some of the most high end machines. They confirmed that they often used the Kinex 24 TPI BB in 26 TPI bikes and had no problems whatsoever.

So let me know if you guys need to order anything. If you do want to order something it would be cool if you guys could pay the postage and purchase cost and maybe a small donation for the Hosting fees of my page. But if you don't have the cash to spare no problem. If you need more than one thing it would be handy if you order it in one go as this will save a bit of hassle for me and bike shop and probably postage too. Also he said he might be able to give a discount if i order various things.

As for Canadian merch, sounds interesting! Know of any typically Canadian Bike products or URL that are really worth looking at? I am kinda in the market for a simple seat cover for the B 17 as well as a large bag you can hang of the B17 among other things.

Lastly as i was planning to, i did take some really nice pictures of my finished Twenty which show of all the parts including the fork. With a little luck i will post them within a day.

Best of Luck & hope to hear from you guys.

Well almost all the pictures are up. Having a little trouble with my HTML skills,.. oh well, i'll get it sorted.

I like the Bling on the crank :D . The paint is in very good shape. Looks like you have not made it ugly yet.


The first picture:

http://www.rhizomes.nl/Pics%20Twenty/PICT9636smaller.jpg

is not working. Is it a file name problem?

@ Cheg, so what did you think of the fork (see last picture)?

Yeah, i was laughing so hard when my bike shop ripped out the crankset for my consideration. 'BA-LLiinGG! And with the chrome fork, shiny headset, golden lettering and such it it sure looks Pimp ha ha. And the paint IS in great condition that's why i never wanted to spray it.

Since i am into roleplaying games i was joking to my friends that i should get the large fuzzy dangling 20 sided dice (these exist!) and hang them of my saddle. :)

You are right, i haven't made it ugly yet. I must say i am having a hard time actually doing it. I do think k it looks really nice. But as i will probably have to lock it outside my house soon i should though. Not only theft but also some of the kids in this hood get a bang out of trashing vehicles that look different. My plan was to get a seat cover, tape plastic on the frame and maybe throw gravelly water on the rims so it looks rusty. Then once i live in a more normal area i could just undo those things.

Yeah that is a b4 picture. I am sure i'll get it working (i have this this of problem a lot, but always get it sorted). To be honest i don't know why it isn't working. Maybe it is the name i'll check it, thanks for the tip. I use NVU composer and Filezilla FTP, great freeware but i don't know all the in and outs at all yet.

The picture is working now.

That fork looks fine, though a little flashy in chrome. Goes with the crank though :rolleyes: . I went with a suspension fork but I thought about going with a rigid fork and a Pantour suspension hub to save weight. The suspension fork is really heavy. It probably weighs half as much as the frame. Pantour wheels are expensive though. Maybe on the next one.

That's a great looking Twenty! You're going to have a tough time uglying that up. Seeing this reminds me that I need to get some pictures of mine up.

http://www.gaerlan.com/bikeparts/frame/forks/fork.html
Check out the J&B springer fork. ;p

That's a sweet fork, but the steerer on a twenty needs to be longer than that. Mine was 240mm when I bought it and I think I had to trim it a bit. Maybe 5mm...

Yeah thanks for the compliment ChrisM. As for uglying it up. Well my latest plan was to buy black latex paint (is fairly cheap) and cover a lot the bike up with that.
I think because it is water soluble the paint will not mess with the finish/clearcoat, unlike stickers or other type of paints.

What do you guys think, will this work?

Of course some of the paint will wash up in the rain but if anything that will make it look even more crap. Siigggghhh. I console myself with the fact that if the paint does come of easy one day i can just remove it. Plus i don't think it is a co-incidence that that one guy John S. Allen got to ride the same Twenty for 25 years without it being stolen. I reckon his intentionall ugly paint job had a quite some to do with it...

I think your best bet is to trade frames with me. Mine's hideous!

v1nce:
thanks so much for your help with this bottom bracket. the one i need is 110mm. send me a PM to hash out the details of payment and delivery, ok.

been checking out your website, some cool stuff there. it brought back some memories of de kalenderpanden, my band used to play/visit there, as well as a few other squatted centres around the netherlands. makes me want to get out and travel more...

Aha, another bike/squat afficionado/fellow musician. Cool. You should travel more man, you'd be welcome at my squat in any case. What style/instrument do you play anyhow?

By the way i altered the bit about the Bottom Bracket in this forum and on my page. Almost everything still applies but i got the Kinex variant (not so good) mixed up with the *** (good). I'll also send you a PM in a sec.

Hmm, i was just dreaming the other day. A very improbable dream but a nice one nonetheless... What if a bunch of 20 afficionado's were to get together. Say between 10 and 50. And they were to commision a good frame maker in Asia to build replica 20 frames made out of Titanium or Alu with a derallieur hanger, much beefier dropouts (horizontal?) and a standardized Bottom Bracket Shell.....

You'd end up with a very light (but still low tech looking and hence not too theft prone) folder that would truly be ridiculously durable and versatile.

Aaaahhh,... dreams...

Edit..: as i was told in another thread.. replacing steel by alloy is prob. a bad idea in terms of durability. It will save weight though.

I know it's almost 2-1/2yrs since you (Cavit8) posted this--
"I'll likely end up cutting down the head tube (from the top) to fit a shorter steering tube on the fork."
Am really curious to hear if you ended up trying this, and how it ultimately went. I was thinking of doing same thing, but then got to worrying about steering geometry. And then heard from Sheldon, "sounds like a Bad Idea to me. I would either stick with the original fork/headset or replace both."

It doesn't look like anyone--among the score or so of folks who've posted pics of their R20 projects--has thrown a normal headset on there and still kept a quick-release fold-friendly stem. Ideally, it seems it'd work to put a threadless low stack ht headset on there, like Aheadset STS, and use an unthreaded fork with 2-3 inches of space to spare beyond it. A couple alloy 1" seat clamp could hold the headset positioned, and a 3rd one or the orig lever-clamp could sit above these, in order to compress the top inch or so of steerer tube (that's been slotted) onto a 7/8" stem/tube.

Chances are it'll be more affordable to go with threaded + quill. Anyone know where I can find an extra long hollow stem bolt? I'd like to run my brake cable through the headtube so I can try to do bar spins. Oh yeah, it's gonna be a fixie. (So V1nce, I'm afraid to trust the *** bb for that--am hopeful about finding sq taper replacement spindle and keeping stock 26 tpi cups--but I love what you've done and that you've shared so much great insight!)

This ended up on the backburner after I got the headtube cut by a local framebuilder and while I await a Phil BB. While it may not be the best option (although cutting from the top of the head tube won't affect geometry much), I had a BMX fork on hand that will fit. I'll probably be putting this together in the next month or so and will keep you posted.