Training & Nutrition - Bike HR Lower Than Run HR. Why?

Why is my biking Max HR lower than my running Max HR? I just did the Max HR test as outlined in Lance Armstrong's workout book. I definately hit my max and it was 175 bpm.

When I am out running, I can get my HR to max out at about 192.

Why the difference? What does that indicate in my room for improvement on the bike?

Thanks!

Running generally uses more muscle groups which need more blood.

I tested this a while back on a nice heart rate hill, a steady climb followed by a sprint up the 1:6 finish. Using a low gear seated I can't get much above 190 but feel (relatively) OK. Using a high gear and pulling on bars & pedals i hit 203 and think I'm going to die.

I didn't seem to be going any faster at the higher heart rate...

I did this same test a while back. I was not testing for my max heart rate, but I was testing for efficiency.

On the particular hill that I climbed, I discovered that staying in the seat produced a lower heart rate by about 10bpm than standing on the gears. Time to the top was virtually unchanged.

Even though I know that there are times for standing to climb a hill (as demonstrated by Mr. Armstrong,) I belive for me, I am most efficient by staying in my seat and using lower gears.

Aerow-

Some people are not aware that for each sport, heart rate is sport specific. It is true that running will produce a higher heart rate than cycling due to the fact that you are using more muscles from running than from cycling, so that causes max heart rate to be higher while running. Also, consider another factor- when you are cycling, the body shunts a great deal of the blood to the muscles of the body that use the greatest amount of energy- the legs. While running, the body shunts blood to the muscles in the legs, but then has to pump a lot of the blood to the upper extremeties (against gravity) involved with running too. That takes the body more energy expenditure than when it shunts blood to the legs while cycling.

Just something else to add to the discussion....

Koffee

It would seem that heart rate is contingent on exertion no matter what the activity is.

Wouldn't you actually achieve the same top heart rate period provided you could pedal fast enough or hard enough to equal the energy expenditure you did while running?

Carl

You are right Carl. You only have one Maximum Heart Rate. That's why they call it "Maximum". You MHR does not change depending on what sport you are involved in. It is always the same.

Your MHR does change with age and fitness level though.

Mike

I think he is refering the wall your heart hits. Running generally uses more overall muscles than regular cycling. While I can't be bothered to do the test I would be willing to bet that mountain biking would push my heart farther than running would. Technical ascents and descents are very physical overall using your back, arms (bis and tris) chest and all of you stabilizing muscles at very high speeds.

Originally posted by Captain Crunch
...You only have one Maximum Heart Rate. ...

If this is so, which is what I have understood, then, again, why can I not get it up to 190+ on the bike like I can while running?

Is it a sign of inefficient running ability? Or less physical fitness level on the bike?

There is a similar argument about heart rates while riding recumbents and uprights.I find I work much harder on my upright than i do my recumbent.
I can only think that on the recumbent I can not stand up on hills
and use other muscle groups,and in the position on a recumbent
blood does not have to be pumped up hill.

Ahoy Cap'n!

It IS true.... maximum heart rates are sport specific. That is why people get different heart rate values when they are exercising when they are cycling vs. running (for instance). Again, it has to do with some of the factors I mentioned. Hmmmmmm.... lemmie shoot some websites your way so you can read more about max hr and sports specificity. Try:

www.heartzones.com and if they don't answer your questions more fully, if you email them, they'll respond right away.


http://www.cptips.com/hrmntr.htm is another good one... I use this explanation for my students whenever I give them an anaerobic threshold test. It breaks down maximum heart rate pretty good.

The second recommendation is pretty short- you can give it a quick read, then head over to the heartzones website for clarification and for more explanation on using heart rate moniters in general.

Aye aye, matey! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D


koffee

Sport specific heart rates is totally different from your MHR. I do understand that different sports requiring different muscle groups will in effect produce different top heart rates for that sport but that is not a true Max Heart Rate. I compete in triathlons and train each sport differently based on different values for my heart rate in each discipline but my true MHR does not change from one sport to the next.

Matey!

I guess we agree to disagree, however, I still maintain (as well as many other fitness professionals) that there are different max heart rates for each sport. I can appreciate what you claim, but the more time I spend reading on the subject, the less inclined I am to draw the conclusions you have.

I took a VO2 max test, anaerobic threshold test, and max heart rate test at a training lab in California- one of the labs Lance Armstrong used to train at, and one of the labs that some athletes from different disiplines train at. They emphasized to me at the time I took the test that there were different max heart rates for each sport, and they made a point to ask me which sport was I training in so they could test my max heart rate for that sport.

I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing at this point- do you have any supporting literature or recommended reading that can clarify what you are saying?

10- 4 buddy.....


Koffee

Maximum Heart Rate is based on how fast your heart can beat. It is not how fast your heart beats during any particular activity.

The fastest rate your heart can beat in any given activity before your threshold for pain or muscle failure or oxygen delivery is reached may indeed differ.

You probably won't get a very high heart rate doing curls with a 2 pound weight but eventually you can do enough of them that your arm muscles will give out. Your heart rate at that time is definitely not your maximum heart rate for weight lifting and cetainly not the fastest your heart can beat overall.

Carl

I think that sometimes the terminology gets misunderstood. Max heart rate is just that. That Max your heart can beat before it explodes (basically). The sport specific heart rates we are debating here are also known as Peak Heart Rate. Yes they are possibly a maximum for the sport you are involved in but they are not your true MHR. At least this is the understanding from sports physiologist I have had conversations with.

We tend to use the term Max heart rate very freely and this is where the confusion comes in.

Cool. Now that we got that ironed out...

Why is my Peak Heart Rate (PHR) on the bike 175 bpm, and my PHR running 190+ bpm?

Thanks!

This is a quote from Andrew Coggan (sports physiologist)

For a given person, heart rate depends mostly on
the absolute power output/rate of energy expenditure during exercise.
For most people, it is easier to exercise at a higher absolute intensity
for a longer period of time when running versus cycling (or, e.g.,
swimming). This is typically ascribed to use of a greater total muscle
mass when running; as a result, the stress on any given muscle is less,
resulting in less fatigue. Although this difference may be reduced with
many years of specialized training, it is not uncommon to still see some
difference even in very well trained cyclists.

OK, so when I am trying to create a Hear Rate based workout plan for cycling, do I base my Zone percentages on my Max HR which I think is around 192 bpm or around my peak cycling HR which is 175 bpm?

Originally posted by Aerow
OK, so when I am trying to create a Hear Rate based workout plan for cycling, do I base my Zone percentages on my Max HR which I think is around 192 bpm or around my peak cycling HR which is 175 bpm?

Use your MAX when setting the zones. Exercising within the zone percentages of your MAX heart rate should eventually raise your peak bicycling rate.

Carl

But then, how do I determine my MAX heart rate? Do I do it with a running test or a cycling test? Or is there another general test that I can do to get the real number?

Your "true" MHR can only be gotten during a supervised stress test, usually under medical supervision.

A less reliable method is to use the "rule of thumb" which says your MHR is equal to your age subtracted from 220.

The stress test method can be a bit pricey.

Here's a heart rate calculator that uses the 220-age method modified slightly to take into account your fitness level.

http://stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml

Hope this helps. At least it's inexpensive.

Carl

AerowOK, so when I am trying to create a Hear Rate based workout plan for cycling, do I base my Zone percentages on my Max HR which I think is around 192 bpm or around my peak cycling HR which is 175 bpm?

well, if you are just trying to get the basic ranges, then a basic estimate of your max HR should be sufficient: take the highest HR you see on your monitor and add a few beats - it's probably somewhere w/i 5-10 beats of the typical 220-age.

if you really want accurate training zones, you need to know your LACTATE THRESHOLD (also known as anerobic threshold). To really know this you need a lab test where they measure your lactate acid buildup by taking blood samples at progressively more strenuos levels of exertion (4mmol is usually the threshold level), but there are some good ways to "guess" yours: I used a book called something like "Time Saving Techniques for Multisport Athletes" (sorry can't remember the exact title or the author - it's at home and i'm at work). I don't know a good Internet source, but basically, you use perceived perception, breathing, and duration/repeat ability to make a very good guess. I guessed mine at 165 and then later had an official sports lab test on the bike and the result was 164.

For really good training ranges, usually BOTH sports-specific Lactate Threshold and sports-specific Max HR are used to calculate ranges, although LT play a bigger role in the formulas i've seen.

As to the whole Max HR discusion: i'm no physician, but i think there is ONE max HR for the body and during different activities people may or may not be able to attain this maximum, therefore giving a sports-specific PEAK HR that can also be called a sport-specific max HR, or often just the Max HR... confusing. i think you just have to clarify whether you mean sports-specific Max or Theoretical Max (your true max). i personally use Theoretical Max to mean my real max, and then just Max to mean my sports-specific max, but that's just my one use of the terms...

Peak HR, Lactate Threshold and "normal/typical" HR all vary for different sports: typically, running and inline skating are higher than cycling, and all are higher than swimming. for me (from my triathlon training), compared to my main sport of cycling, my HR for running is about 5bpm higher, and about 5-10bpm lower for swimming (i'm a poor swimmer so i think the difference is greater b/c i don't reach my potential).

anyway, i hope i helped rather than confusing you more...

I know everyone is trying to help, but I still don't have a clear answer. I am trying to apply the HR training programs outlined in Chris Carmichael's "Lance Armstrong Performance Program." I did all the tests as outlined in the book.

My max heart rate, as indicated during the test outlined in the book, was 175 bpm. So should I then calculate the zones based on that heart rate (which some are calling my Peak Heart Rate, or Sport Specific MHR?)

Originally posted by Aerow
I know everyone is trying to help, but I still don't have a clear answer. I am trying to apply the HR training programs outlined in Chris Carmichael's "Lance Armstrong Performance Program." I did all the tests as outlined in the book.

My max heart rate, as indicated during the test outlined in the book, was 175 bpm. So should I then calculate the zones based on that heart rate (which some are calling my Peak Heart Rate, or Sport Specific MHR?)

I think you are getting a higher peak running because you are using more muscle mass running then cycling making your heart pump faster.

The way to improve is to stress the specific muscles you are working. In cycling, you are working plenty long to give you all sorts of aerobic conditioning. So I would base the zones on the peak heart rate you get in cycling.

One way to determine peak heart rate in cycling is to ride with some stronger cyclists. Do a good warm up and then hang with them as long as you can until they drop you. Do it a few times. Check your maximum heart rate and that should be pretty close.

I just do it subjectively. I have not worn a monitor in serveral years now. I found that I could ride at 165 pretty comfortably. But I started to "hurt" at over 170. And at over 180, I was thinking that maybe it was time to let the group go. I ususally dropped at around the high 180s but I usually dropped out when before I was toast (I don't like riding back totally wasted). The highest I ever hit was 196 (but I think I might have been able to squeeze a bit more out - I felt good that day). Using perceived effort and a heart rate monitor can be a good combo. If you hurt worse at a lower heart rate than normal, maybe your body is telling you something.

i would think that any weight bearing exercise would make a larger MHR than a non-weight bearing one.

Man, you aint trying hard enough.

So this is what you should do: find a nice 2km 8-10% climb, attack it as your life depended on it.

You should be able to hit 190 in no time.


P.S: Let us know the result.

Originally posted by Aerow
I know everyone is trying to help, but I still don't have a clear answer. I am trying to apply the HR training programs outlined in Chris Carmichael's "Lance Armstrong Performance Program." I did all the tests as outlined in the book.

My max heart rate, as indicated during the test outlined in the book, was 175 bpm. So should I then calculate the zones based on that heart rate (which some are calling my Peak Heart Rate, or Sport Specific MHR?)

I use a book called "The Heart Rate Monitor Book" by Sally Edwards and a Polar 710. I am 53, work out at the gym lifting weights, have a BikeTech bike and treadmill in my home gym and I have recently started back to road cycle training. I hope to compete in some "old" man races...yikes, did I say that ;-)

Max HR CHANGES as we age and it goes the wrong way...down. It can vary 10-13 beats per sports activity and should be measured for each activity and best taken in either early morning or late afternoon (when you are not exposed to sunlight). Time your meals before you take the tests.

Max HR is an ALL OUT TEST, increasing your heart beat until it no longer increases. MaxHR is the highest rate registered of multiple tests per sport. This book offers multiple tests for various sports, including running, cycling, swiming, etc.

Training zones for peak performance are calculated after you have determined your max HR for each sport. Also, you can calculate your AGE ADJUSTED maxHR by using the 220-(age) to determine ball park max HR.

Experience has shown me my max HR @176, exhaustion...(this past wkend) all most 10bpm higher then using Age Adjusted formula.

I've used this book for many years. Great book of info for what we do.
"The Heart Rate Monitor Book" by Sally Edwards