How many of you ride up to the light?

[wheezl]

But this is my point.
Why should you feel it's your right to take such liberties?

The way I figure it, heavy traffic is a group cooperation of all vehicles involved.
And that means following the rules, declaring your intent (since we don't have blinkers we need hand signals and EYE CONTACT) and most importantly, patience and consideration.

Weaving your way to the front because you have this false sense of entitlement being on two wheels just further erodes goodwill from motorists.


Hmm it seems to be the reverse problem where I live. I continually have cars pull ahead of me which causes me to have to pass them twice. I don't get my panties in a bunch about it. Certainly if I am in a situation where cars are regularly going to to travel faster than I can there would be no point in cutting to the head of the line. In NYC it would be plain stupid of you *not* to cut to the head of the line and an insult to human beings everywhere. :P

[Bikepacker67]

Hmm it seems to be the reverse problem where I live. I continually have cars pull ahead of me which causes me to have to pass them twice. I don't get my panties in a bunch about it. Certainly if I am in a situation where cars are regularly going to to travel faster than I can there would be no point in cutting to the head of the line. In NYC is would be plain stupid of you *not* to cut to the head of the line and and insult to human beings everywhere. :P

I dunno...
I've ridden in downtown Miami, downtown Boston, and downtown D.C.

Maybe NYC is different.

[wheezl]

I dunno...
I've ridden in downtown Miami, downtown Boston, and downtown D.C.

Maybe NYC is different.

Maybe you ride slower than I do ;)

[genec]

Hmm it seems to be the reverse problem where I live. I continually have cars pull ahead of me which causes me to have to pass them twice. I don't get my panties in a bunch about it. Certainly if I am in a situation where cars are regularly going to to travel faster than I can there would be no point in cutting to the head of the line. In NYC it would be plain stupid of you *not* to cut to the head of the line and an insult to human beings everywhere. :P

Have this happen too... Where motorists pass me while I am doing 25+ or so on 35MPH roads... Some motorists work hard at trying to impress me with their skills and engine power and pass me, only for me to catch up to them at the next light and the next light. My average speed is higher than their's, but their peak speed is higher. In this case, I don't bother moving up, but maintain a position just behind them... cycling vehicularly... and smiling at their rear view mirror.
:rolleyes:

[Bikepacker67]

Maybe you ride slower than I do ;)

Maybe so.

But as you say, the natural speed of heavy traffic (which I believe - as a legal vehicle - you shouldn't exceed) is most often sub 20mph.

Again I ask, why do you feel it's your right as a cyclist to take shortcuts and cut to the front.
Don't you hate it when motorists treat you as less than a vehicle?
Why then would you actively reinforce that false notion?

[wheezl]

Maybe so.

But as you say, the natural speed of heavy traffic (which I believe - as a legal vehicle - you shouldn't exceed) is most often sub 20mph.

Again I ask, why do you feel it's your right as a cyclist to take shortcuts and cut to the front.
Don't you hate it when motorists treat you as less than a vehicle?
Why then would you actively reinforce that false notion?


Because it's not a race and no one is scoring points. It doesn't matter who gets thier first, and I can honestly say 100% without a doubt that I am not causing any motorist to get to thier destination any later than they would have otherwise. They know this and don't really get pissed off about it. What they do get angry about is when you practice VC. People scream at you. Cut to the front of the line in NYC.. aand no one gives a rat's butt. *really*

[Bikepacker67]

What they do get angry about is when you practice VC. People scream at you. Cut to the front of the line in NYC... and no one gives a rat's butt. *really*




Are NY motorists really that stupid?
Can they not logically reason that if the cyclist moves to the front, they'll have to pass them eventually? Whereas, if the cyclist takes his proper position as a VEHICLE (isn't that what we're trying to be?), the car directly behind can pass shortly after the intersection, at a safer speed?

[wheezl]

Are NY motorists really that stupid?
Can they not logically reason that if the cyclist moves to the front, they'll have to pass them eventually? Whereas, if the cyclist takes his proper position as a VEHICLE (isn't that what we're trying to be?), the car directly behind can pass shortly after the intersection, at a safer speed?


Umm no, they almost never pass me. I pass them. I never see them again.

[sbhikes]

I have never met a single car driver who got upset or even noticed that cyclists went to the front or that they were passing the same cyclist over and over. They really don't care. At least around here, everyone expects cyclists to go to the front. To do otherwise is ridiculous. If I saw some dude on a bike waiting behind a long line of cars, breathing in the fumes and taking up one more car's worth of space I'd wonder what was wrong with him.

You are being inconsiderate by taking up space in line. You are now just one more car in the cue.

[wheezl]

I have never met a single car driver who got upset or even noticed that cyclists went to the front or that they were passing the same cyclist over and over. They really don't care. At least around here, everyone expects cyclists to go to the front. To do otherwise is ridiculous. If I saw some dude on a bike waiting behind a long line of cars, breathing in the fumes and taking up one more car's worth of space I'd wonder what was wrong with him.

You are being inconsiderate by taking up space in line. You are now just one more car in the cue.


and what with the World's Safest Beach right there in Carp everyone is just a little more mellow ;)

[Bikepacker67]

You are being inconsiderate by taking up space in line. You are now just one more car in the cue.


Cue means it's your line.
Queue means your IN line....

[Roody]

G'bye.

[wheezl]

Cue means it's your line.
Queue means your IN line....

Yet you did not disagree with her actual point!

sbhikes wins! :)

[HumdrumPG]

Are NY motorists really that stupid?
Can they not logically reason that if the cyclist moves to the front, they'll have to pass them eventually? Whereas, if the cyclist takes his proper position as a VEHICLE (isn't that what we're trying to be?), the car directly behind can pass shortly after the intersection, at a safer speed?


You're also assuming that every time a car has to pass a bicycle, it's this huge exertion on their part. Oftentimes there's no problem whatsoever.

[ehammarlund]

Are the people who filter and go where they want to (irrespective of rules) the same people who start spouting "we ARE traffic" when a car driver complains about bikers blocking traffic? Are they the same ones who complain about cars passing too close? Are they the ones who take the lane in response? I'm just curious and couldn't help but ask; I don't recognize usernames very well.

Anyway, I hope not. If you want to be an effective advocate--for anything, not just bikes--you have to be consistent. Sometimes that means absorbing personal annoyance (waiting in traffic) so that you have a better ethical and moral stand on a more important issue to you, like your ability to take the lane. Sometimes that means you have to take sides against people you like, such as bikers who act like fools; or with people you don't like, like car drivers. The more 'slippery' you get for your own gain, and the more exceptions you make to your grand pronouncements, the less credibility you have.

[77Univega]

Not only is it just plain RUDE to make all those cars re-pass you, but it's also VERY DANGEROUS for the cyclist in regards to left turning traffic, as well as oncoming right turning traffic. --- These hazards of sharing the road with cars and trucks will ease up when more motorists take to driving motorcycles and motor scooters in response to the upcoming shortages in the supply of gasoline. The effects of peak oil will lead to more bicyclists and more room for bikes.
www.peakoil.ie/peakoil

[Dchiefransom]

, she asked me for some directions while we were moving,.

You were riding your bike dressed as a mailman?

[randya]

Queue means your IN line....
It's ON line, not IN line... ;)

[Dchiefransom]

I do it all the time. There's usually either a bike lane almost all the way to the intersection, or a wide area to the right of the line of cars. If people can't differentiate between cars and bikes, and use that difference in their minds for a still smooth flow of all vehicles on the road, then maybe more licenses should be cut to small pieces with scissors. I think most car drivers realize that when I ride up to the light beside them, they will go by me where the speed limit is 45 mph.

[bkrownd]

--- These hazards of sharing the road with cars and trucks will ease up when more motorists take to driving motorcycles and motor scooters in response to the upcoming shortages in the supply of gasoline. The effects of peak oil will lead to more bicyclists and more room for bikes.


You have just crossed the line from dream to delusion. Nothing will stop the American automobile. Politicians and industrialists will find a way to make cars burn squirrels and feces, if that's what it takes to keep them rolling.

[genec]

I do it all the time. There's usually either a bike lane almost all the way to the intersection, or a wide area to the right of the line of cars. If people can't differentiate between cars and bikes, and use that difference in their minds for a still smooth flow of all vehicles on the road, then maybe more licenses should be cut to small pieces with scissors. I think most car drivers realize that when I ride up to the light beside them, they will go by me where the speed limit is 45 mph.

It seems like some vehicular cyclists are going a bit overboard... what with insisting that cyclists wait in long lines of traffic. Heck, even in Washington state at the ferry terminals, cyclists don't have to wait the sometimes 4 hour waits that motorists do.

Try to keep in mind that while bikes are vehicles, they are not autos; therefore cyclists may at times use the unique charateristics of their human powered vehicle to said cyclists' advantage.

[Bruce Rosar]

What they do get angry about is when you practice VC. Riding a bicycle as if it were a vehicle is sort of like playing the violin as if it were a musical instrument; folks don't get as angry once you advance beyond practice to performance ;)

[slider]

What the VC extremists dont't seem to get is that in most major cities automobiles are inefficient, polluting, slow and just plain stupid modes of transportion. To insist that bikes emulate this makes no sense. Bikes are fun, efficient and quick. In CA, where I live, lane sharing is legal so there is no law against filtering through traffic. In the city I live in (SF), there are very few routes where I can't beat a car from point to point. I always filter to the front and in heavy traffic am usually passing blocks and blocks of cars when splitting lanes. I do this because I can and because it makes riding an enjoyable, cheap and efficient means of transportation.

Do the VC extremists suggest we ride around and around for blocks looking for a parking space and then dutifully fill the meter with quarters so that motorists will respect us? After all that's what the cars have to do.

-s

[mac]

When approaching a red traffic light, with cars already waiting in line, how many of you here ride up the left side to the front of the line instead of taking your proper place in the middle of the lane in queue? I know most newbies do this for lack of knowing any better, but I see more than a few seasoned cyclists doing this as well. Not only is it just plain RUDE to make all those cars re-pass you, but it's also VERY DANGEROUS for the cyclist in regards to left turning traffic, as well as oncoming right turning traffic.
I've been riding bikes in the street since high school and I always cut to the front of the line at stop lights unless the cross-light is turning yellow. I do the same thing with my motorcycle. It's not rude, it's not a newbie thing, and at least in CA, it's perfectly legal. I ride my bike like I ride my motorcycle. A lot of my motorcycling skills transfer over to bicycling. Maybe you should take up motorcycling as well.


I go to the front and take the center of the lane. It's just faster that way.
Exactly. I don't want to wait in line and breathe all of the exhaust from the cars. What's the point of riding on 2 wheels if you don't take advantage of your very small footprint?

Saying that cutting to the front of the line gives cyclists a bad reputation is nonsense. Vehicular Cycling all the time - i.e. being a snob about it - gives cyclists a bad rep. Now that's dangerous.

[randya]

Do the VC extremists suggest we ride around and around for blocks looking for a parking space and then dutifully fill the meter with quarters so that motorists will respect us? After all that's what the cars have to do.
:lol: Best post on thread! :lol:

[Bruce Rosar]

... the VC extremists ...Ah, that's a nice juicy label to slap on those who dare to deliver a disagreeable message! Much less risky than just discussing the message strictly on its own merits (unless other readers of the thread happen to recognize disinformation tactic (http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html) #5 when they see it)

#5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule.
This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'fanatics', 'deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

[genec]

Do the VC extremists suggest we ride around and around for blocks looking for a parking space and then dutifully fill the meter with quarters so that motorists will respect us? After all that's what the cars have to do.

-s

Well after all, you are driving a vehicle... keep them quarters handy. :roflmao:

[genec]

Ah, that's a nice juicy label to slap on those who dare to deliver a disagreeable message! Much less risky than just discussing the message strictly on its own merits...


How about a disagreeable preposterous message such as suggesting that one wait a 1/2 hour in bumper to bumper motor traffic in the name of being "vehicular."

[barenakedbiker]

Vote here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=115425

[Bruce Rosar]

Well after all, you are driving a vehicle... Of course, just because a bicycle is a vehicle doesn't mean that a bicyclist is subject to every regulation which applies to a motorist. While most Rules Of The Road (ROTR) for movement in traffic are shared by all vehicle operators (including bicyclists), some ROTR apply just to motorists because of the extraordinary danger such heavy equipment operation can create. A "Following too closely" rule which begins with
(a)The driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, ...
is an example of a ROTR that applies just to operators of vehicles which pose an extraordinary danger to the person or property of others (i.e, applies to most motorists).

[Roody]

I don't think it's accurate to associate filtering bans with Vehicular Cycling. I'm quite sure that Forrester and other VC authors suggest that filtering should be done very cautiously, not banned. I think I remember Helmet Head on this forum also saying it's OK. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

As I said before, I don't usually do it, but it sure doesn't disturb me many that other cyclists filter through traffic. I don't think it upsets many motorists, either.

[Dchiefransom]

Well after all, you are driving a vehicle... keep them quarters handy. :roflmao:

Too much for us "weight weenies".

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I don't think it's accurate to associate filtering bans with Vehicular Cycling. I'm quite sure that Forrester and other VC authors suggest that filtering should be done very cautiously, not banned. I think I remember Helmet Head on this forum also saying it's OK. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

As I said before, I don't usually do it, but it sure doesn't disturb me many that other cyclists filter through traffic. I don't think it upsets many motorists, either.
1. Maybe I missed it but I don't think ANYBODY was discussing a BAN on anything associated with bicyclists' passing options.
2. "I remember Helmet Head on this forum also saying it's OK." And? Is Helmet Head's blessing supposed to mean anything to anybody besides Helmet Head?
3. I agree that few cyclists or motorists get upset at such maneuvers. IMO, only self-appointed cycling nannies get their noses out of joint over it.

[JavaMan]

I always ride my bike up to the light because I can. So what?

[EnigManiac]

Perhaps this has been said elsewhere in this thread: when there is sufficient space between the curb and the motor vehicles, I ride to the front for the sole purpose of being seen by those motorists who would choose to make a right turn unexpectedly without signalling nor looking in their right-hand mirrors. Remaining in line leaves you vulnerable to being nailed by inattentive and inconsiderate drivers who fail to ensure it's safe to turn right and refuse to negotiate the maneuver properly. If cars must pass me again, so be it. There are hundreds of other cyclists they'll have to pass anyway. Motor vehicles do not hesitate to come up to the line beside me when I am at the line first, so why should I remain in a line when they don't? I have been riding like that for twenty five years without an accident and I believe it is safer. Considering that every cyclist I see (and that is well into the hundreds of thousands) all do the same thing, it creates an unnatural hazard stopping at the end of a line in front of a cyclist who wasn't expecting you to suddenly behave like a car.

When there is a right-turn lane, I proceed in the through lane closest to the right line and to the right-turning drivers left, but I hang back a bit to allow the driver to see crossing traffic so he/she can make their turn without obstruction. Seems fair, courteous and safe to me and I've yet to encounter an objection.

[outashape]

I agree with EnigManiac. If I take a lane and wait, the drivers behind me are pissed when they have to wait for me to take off and then they miss the light. I think everyone is happier, if I go to the front of the line and cross when the light turns green and everyone has seen me. Besides, the more often drivers have to pass cyclists, the more comfortable they will become with sharing the road. If it is a side street and the speed is only 25 mph, I will wait my turn.

[slvoid]

To be honest, I run every light I can. Even cops encourge me to run lights. I don't get it...

[nick burns]

I generally time my approach to traffic lights so that I arrive when they're green & most of the waiting traffic has already started to go through. I've been riding the same route for a pretty long time & know the light timings very well. The only time I'll filter is if there's a very long line of waiting cars at the light that might prevent me from making it through the green, but that's a pretty rare circumstance on my route.

[manboy]

I've actually crafted a rubber buffer device that surrounds my bicycle, giving it the dimensions of a car. I've put flashy lights all over it, and I have a slow moving vehicle placard and a license plate with my name on it. At night it looks like a low-flying UFO. I think this will give me more respect from drivers. What do you think?

[manboy]

Sorry, what I meant to say was: I ride up to the light all the time. It's quicker, and I don't think it pisses anyone off. I pretty much only take the lane when turning left from a left turn and straight lane to avoid getting mowed down. In most places I ride, if I took the lane rather than remaining on the side unobtrusively, I'd probably get insults and strange looks. The way I see it is it's not my fault their vehicles are so damned big.

[slvoid]

A friend of mine would go riding his sport bike with this friends, and they'll just squeeze between cars stopped at a light at 30-40mph, make their way up to the front, then just lay down rubber while they're waiting at the light then peel off when it turns green.
It pisses off drivers to no end but not many cars can catch them going from 0-60 in under 3 sec.

[mac]

A friend of mine would go riding his sport bike with this friends, and they'll just squeeze between cars stopped at a light at 30-40mph, make their way up to the front, then just lay down rubber while they're waiting at the light then peel off when it turns green.
It pisses off drivers to no end but not many cars can catch them going from 0-60 in under 3 sec.
:beer: :D That's the way to ride! Just first check for red-light runners, then open up the throttle. The only time I got caught was when I was in Beverly Hills and some dude in his Ferrari raced me.

[Bikepacker67]

:beer: :D That's the way to ride! Just first check for red-light runners, then open up the throttle. The only time I got caught was when I was in Beverly Hills and some dude in his Ferrari raced me.


Ya! That's IT!

Let's celebrate irresponsible behavior!
Crack me open one of those beers, MAC.
I've only had 7, and I need to get to an even number before I drive!

[randya]

A friend of mine would go riding his sport bike with this friends, and they'll just squeeze between cars stopped at a light at 30-40mph, make their way up to the front, then just lay down rubber while they're waiting at the light then peel off when it turns green.
It pisses off drivers to no end but not many cars can catch them going from 0-60 in under 3 sec.
I saw this in Barcelona last year, except it was done by large packs of scooter operators and motorcyclists. They would all filter up to the front and race off together, the motorists seemed totally fine with it. If there was no traffic on the cross street, they wouldn't even wait for the light to change.

[genec]

Fine with it, or used to it?

[randya]

Does it make much difference either way? In Paris, the motorists watch for motorcycles and scooters in their rear view mirror and move over in their lane enough to let them through. I think that European motorists just have a lot more tolerance of two-wheeled vehicles than American motorists do or probably ever will, at least in our lifetimes.

[lilHinault]

Just for the record, Barcelona ****in' rules!

[randya]

I'm going back again this year. :D

[genec]

Does it make much difference either way? In Paris, the motorists watch for motorcycles and scooters in their rear view mirror and move over in their lane enough to let them through. I think that European motorists just have a lot more tolerance of two-wheeled vehicles than American motorists do or probably ever will, at least in our lifetimes.

Yeah there is a difference... and it sounds like they are "fine with it," rather than simply used to it.

[genec]

I'm going back again this year. :D

What do you think of the Bike Lanes there? Have you actually riden them?