Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - 'k 'em all, NYC bike shops, rant II

Day after riding in my first Critical Mass, I'm anxious and excited to finish converting my girlfriend's 12-speed Zebra over to a ss, esp. now that I finally have the freewheel off. I managed to score a few rear axle spacers at bikeworks yesterday, after picking up my Raleigh conversion (had to get new cranks), but they didn't have a full variety. I woke up this morning and began measuring the chainline lengths, and managed to get the driveside spacing and thus the chainline right, but then I ran out of spacers.

I had to go see a friend's band play at the East River Park, so afterwards, I decided to head over to Trackstar. Went in with my girlfriend and asked the guy for spacers. First he looks at me like 'what the hell are you talking about,' and says basically the same thing, "explain more." So I do, and then he looks at me, kind of shakes his head and says, "well, we have spacers, but you need to bring in the hub and wheel." Which meant he didn't know what I was talking about, because if he did, he'd realize that I need to put the spacers to get the axle nuts to the dropouts, which I had explained. In other words, I'd have to bring in the disassembled bike, which I'm not about to do, just to get the right damn spacers. Anyway, after this, he just kind of shrugged and walked away, while the little Japanese woman behind the counter just stared at me like I was an idiot. My girlfriend and I walked out, and cognizant of my previous post about 'baditude in NYC bike shops,' she says to me, "wow, the bike shops here really do have a lot of attitude." Then she says, "why was he so mean?" "Don't know," I replied. A few more steps down the sidewalk and I turned around, decided to go in and give it another try. Went in, waited for dude to finish with his other customer, then when the guy left, I said, "I guess I didn't explain very well, but I just need some spacers--" "Yeah, um, you just need to bring the wheel in." "So you won't just sell me some spacers?" "No."

WTF?!Before anyone out there starts going on about me wanting free advice or taking away any business from these dudes, be clear on this: I just wanted to buy some damn axle spacers. Dude told me they had them, but he wouldn't sell them to me. That's it.

I walked out totally bewildered. Went over to Bicycle Habitat, and the guy there explained to me that I probably wouldn't be able to find smaller spacers in the city because no one keeps track of them. He referred me to Harris Cyclery or Nashbar. I purchased a roll of rim tape and gave the dollar change to the guy just for not copping attitude.

Meantime, I've come up with one explanation for dude-at-trackstar's behavior--he didn't feel like going and scrounging around for some spacers. If that was it, fine, all he has to say is, "I don't feel like going and scrounging around for some. There's no way I'm going to find them."

Meantime, Bikeworks seems okay for this week.

Anyone here work in a NYC bike shop, I have one thing to say: "SCREW YOU."

Oh, and before anyone wants to tell me to take my business elsewhere, thanks, I plan to, and when I find the a$$hole in that shop, I'll move on again.

i don't understand why you'd need additional spacers to make it work, 126mm spacing with the spacers on the drive side, is still going to be 126mm spacing with the spacers on the non-drive side, and you should be able to get a reasonable chainline our of that. if you need anything at all it'll most likely be an extra 5mm spacer for the non-drive side, and a 5mm locknut (versus a 10mm locknut if that's what you have already) for the drive side. you'll also have to re-dish the wheel to make sure you get the rim centered between the stays.

dude at trackstar probably wanted to see the wheel so he could tell you the same thing and save you some money and frustration when you realised that you bought spacers when you didn't need to. that doesn't really excuse his attitude, and it doesn't really warrant a big "screw you" to anyone who works in a shop in NYC, or any city for that matter. dealing with clueless buttfaces all day makes anyone a tad apoplectic. having to go scrounge around for a $.50 part for 5 minutes is not an effective use of anyone's time. or maybe he just doesn't know what an axle spacer is, and reacted with anger out of his own ignorance.

FYI, you don't need to bring the whole disassembled bike if all he wanted to look at was the wheel, and it's pretty easy to strap a wheel to your backpack and get to a bike shop.

I'm just following Deakins' instructions on chainline on sheldon brown's website. According to him, and according to what I see from looking, the large spacer is just not going to work with the ss cones

Bringing the wheel in is not going to help him see if my chainline is correct or not. Only looking at the chainring and cog lined up is going to tell him that. It took me all of about 30 seconds to get the spacing right this morning, but now I don't have enough small spacers to fit the non-drive side nut against the dropout.

Besides, I was looking for a 5mm, 4mm, or any fewer mm spacer. Any variety of smaller ones.

And really, if the guy wanted to help or not, does that matter? I ask, "So you won't sell me a couple of spacers?" and he responds, "No." And how is he going to save me any money over selling me a few 25- or 50-cent spacers? Come on.

Look, the guy didn't want to help me or sell me anything, for who knows what reason.

I asked my girlfriend when we left if I gave any kind of bad vibe off, and she said no. Her comment to me came before I said anything after we left the shop.

At this point, I don't care if anyone deserves a screw you or not, because as far as I'm concerned, every time I walk into a bike shop, I'm fairly certain I have about a 50/50 chance of getting one from whomever I deal with. I've worked in service jobs, I know how crappy dealing with customers can be, and I'm especially sensitive to being any kind of a PIA when I go into a store, restaurant or anywhere else for that matter.

The more of this crap that goes on, the less inclined I am to patronize any shops or ask for any work.

I hope the rents on 1st or 2nd street, whatever it is, get raised really soon.

im gonna have to go with peripatetic on this one....it seems that most shop people have some serious attitude issues

which only drives me to online shops like nashbar....when i find a shop with good guys....i am very loyal....but that almost never happens...

Did you let them know what size spacers you needed ? 1mm, 3mm, 5mm. Spacers come in different sizes so maybe he just didn't want to waist his time and money but than again maybe they don't deal with conversions to often so they wouldn't have the need for spacers in the shop.

Just my thought.

Tony

I asked my girlfriend when we left if I gave any kind of bad vibe off, and she said no. Her comment to me came before I said anything after we left the shop.


that's like asking your mom if she thinks you're cool.

and...you changed the cones? why would you need to do that, unless they were damaged? and even then, you wouldn't have put any single speed specific cones in a hub that was meant for a road bike. i've just never heard of an aftermarket cone for a road hub that was deemed "single speed only."

ANYWAY....

if you measure the chainline on the bike (from center of the seat tube to the center of the chainrings), you can very easily figure out how many spacers you need on your axle to achieve the proper chianline, if you also know the rear spacing of the frame you're using. i.e: 126mm spacing, 41mm chainline, center of the hub at the centerline of the bike leaves you with 63mm to the dropout, 63-41=22mm of space on either side of the hub (assuming it's symmetrical) to the dropout. you subtract the distance from the center of the cog to the outside edge of the hubshell from the 22mm, and the width of your locknut and bam, you get the number of spacers for the drive side. if your hub isn't symmetrical, or it's center-ideal chainline doesn't match up with your frame's, then you just measure 41mm from the center of the cog toward the inside of the hub, and where ever that 41mm is on the hubshell is where the centerline of your frame will fall, so then you measure 63mm from that point on the hub, and you basically do the same calculations above to figure out how many spacers you need. the numbers are pulled right out of my ass for convenience' sake, but plug in any true to life numbers and it'll work. you can match the bottom bracket length/crankset to a hub, or vice versa. you just have to be strong in the rudimentary math.

you don't need to see the wheel in the frame if you have the measurements handy and can communicate them. all that takes a little less than 5 minutes with a dial caliper and calculator. granted, the trackstar guy probably wouldn't have done that, because he sounds like a lazy oaf, i'm just saying, you can figure out the right number of spacers without seeing the frame. hell, you don't even need the frame if you know what crankset, chainrings and bottom bracket you're using.

I love my LBS. They're not *******s.

Peri, come to Boston sometime, and I'll buy you some spacers or something and take you to a real LBS, OK? Boston is only a $10 chinatown bus ride away!

I'm serious.

I had a bad experience at Trackstar, and I never went back. Similar type of thing, wouldn't just sell me a 16t cog when he found out I was doing a conversion, all sorts of "suicide hub" nonsense, hard sell, condescension, the whole nine yards. Eventually convinced him, and he gave me the wrong size. I didn't bother going back because of the 'tude.

I've kept mum because the people on this forum like trackstar, but it sounds familiar.

I am not taking sides but conversions are a tough case. You can help someone with a fixed conversion but if something happens then the first person they are going to blame is the bike shop they went to. I am sure that it is a liability that many bike shops don't want to deal with. You are essentially converting a bike to something which is not its intended purpose.

Trackstar deals with track bikes. I think that is well established. If you are dealing with conversions, you should seek out bike shops who are willing to help you with such a task. Honestly, if I owned a bike shop, I would not deal with conversions unless I had a mechanic who has done conversions for several years prior on many different makes and models.

I am sorry to hear about your experience at Trackstar but if you know the part that you need and know how to work on your bike, then ordering the part online is a minor inconvenience.

it sounds like these guys are pretty lame, and have some serious biases...they probably won't last too long if they only sell stuff to "true road-trackies."

Trackstar deals with track bikes. I think that is well established.

I want to retract this quote since I am not completely certain that Trackstar does not deal with fixed conversions.

OneTinSloth: You are a mechanic and you are definitely extremely helpful and knowledgeable about bike repair. Are you confident in selling someone that part which you know will be used for a safe or unsafe fixed conversion? If you do the repair yourself, it is a different case. But, if you are not working on the bike yourself are you liable by selling that part knowing that it may be the wrong solution?

if the shop doesn't do the work, then the shop isn't liable. we can sell a part, but if we're not installing it, then we're not responsible for what happens after it leaves our shop. if the part fails, it's a manufacturer warranty issue, if it was improper use or installation, then it's on whoever worked on it.

that's like asking your mom if she thinks you're cool.





Whatever, man. Maybe you actually have asked your mom if you were cool. I wasn't asking her for validation, I was just asking her if it seemed like maybe I had done anything to piss the Dude off. Trust me, she's more than happy to tell me when I'm out of line with a stranger, hasn't hesitated to do it on many occasions. In my world a girlfriend's definitely NOT an adoring sycophant.

Just let me reiterate for you: Girlfriend was sitting in the corner, bored out of her a$$ and wanting to leave. She watched the whole interaction, and after we left, she asked, "What happened," because she saw that I didn't get anything. "I don't know," was my original response. That's when she made her comment about the 'tude. Then I told her I really didn't get it, and she waited while I went back to attempt to straighten it out and just get the damn spacers. I came back out without the damn spacers.





and...you changed the cones? why would you need to do that, unless they were damaged? and even then, you wouldn't have put any single speed specific cones in a hub that was meant for a road bike. i've just never heard of an aftermarket cone for a road hub that was deemed "single speed only."





No, I didn't. I did nothing to the cones. I can't just move the original spacer, because it's huge. I wanted to get a variety of spacers so I would not have to realize that I was a mm or two off, then go back. Tom Deakins' advice makes sense about this. An hour roundtrip or more from Brooklyn to Trackstar means that it's just better to have extra.







ANYWAY....

if you measure the chainline on the bike (from center of the seat tube to the center of the chainrings), you can very easily figure out how many spacers you need on your axle to achieve the proper chianline, if you also know the rear spacing of the frame you're using. i.e: 126mm spacing, 41mm chainline, center of the hub at the centerline of the bike leaves you with 63mm to the dropout, 63-41=22mm of space on either side of the hub (assuming it's symmetrical) to the dropout. you subtract the distance from the center of the cog to the outside edge of the hubshell from the 22mm, and the width of your locknut and bam, you get the number of spacers for the drive side. if your hub isn't symmetrical, or it's center-ideal chainline doesn't match up with your frame's, then you just measure 41mm from the center of the cog toward the inside of the hub, and where ever that 41mm is on the hubshell is where the centerline of your frame will fall, so then you measure 63mm from that point on the hub, and you basically do the same calculations above to figure out how many spacers you need. the numbers are pulled right out of my ass for convenience' sake, but plug in any true to life numbers and it'll work. you can match the bottom bracket length/crankset to a hub, or vice versa. you just have to be strong in the rudimentary math.





I graduated college with a bachelor's degree in Pure Mathematics. I got the math, even the rudimentary stuff. I know how to add and subtract, even bigger than two-digit numbers. Heck, I even know how to carry and use the distributive property. If you'd like, we can move over to foo and discuss abstract algebra, knot theory or non-Euclidean geometry. Do you work for a bike shop? You're condescending rhetoric is ringing remarkably familiar.





you don't need to see the wheel in the frame if you have the measurements handy and can communicate them.



Agreed. But it's just a lot easier to be able to go to a backup when you realize that the 2mm really should be a three or 4. Besides, I got the chainline right, the problem is simply that I need to fill a small 2/3mm gap between the cone and the non-drive-side axle nut. See, I got some spacers at Bikeworks, but they just didn't have enough.

As far as communication, I also agree, and I believe that that was the main problem. But unlike me, the fellow really had no interest in attempting to improve the communication.





all that takes a little less than 5 minutes with a dial caliper and calculator.



Again, agreed.
Unfortunately, I'm using a ruler and my bad eyes. I trust the math, just not the potential for parallax-induced measurement error. Again, why I'd rather just get a small collection of spacers.





granted, the trackstar guy probably wouldn't have done that, because he sounds like a lazy oaf, i'm just saying, you can figure out the right number of spacers without seeing the frame. hell, you don't even need the frame if you know what crankset, chainrings and bottom bracket you're using.


I'm using the road crankset that came with this beater bike, sugino vp. Don't know the BB nor am I sure of what the chainrings are, other than the road ones. All of this is true, and great advice for dealing with the problem of getting the chainline right, but don't you think the easiest solution is really to just ask for a bunch of smaller spacers, which is what I did? And Tony, I agree with you, and I originally asked for some 1-4mm spacers. That was my original request. I just don't buy the "he was trying to help you by saving you money argument." I've never had any LBS employee in the city express any concern for my wallet when it came to shelling out money for anything else, why would someone be trying to save me no more than a few dollars on some extremely small parts?

More like looking to get more money out of me. I go into the shop with the bike, say, "hey, can you help me get the spacers for the chainline," the guy looks at it in the back, finds the right spacers, puts them on, then comes out and charges me what, 5, ten bucks in labor plus a couple bucks for the parts? Again, come on!

I've been into Trackstar before, and some other Dude who helped me was alright, but nothing to rave about. I don't dress like a hipster or a messenger, I don't have a slick-looking track bike, and I'm not particularly athletic looking. If I were to evaluate my appearance based on what an average LBS employee sees, it's an average, uneducated customer who should be doing nothing other than forking over cash to change his innertube or buy a really slick pair of expensive biking shoes. I think I look like an easy target. And I think that when I start opening my mouth and exhibiting a streak of independent thought, it pisses some of the elitist pricks off, and makes them feel like putting me back in my place. And so I turn around, shuffle off and try and figure out for the umpteenth time how I managed to tease out the crap side of yet another one.

B-Fixed, at this rate, I might have to just move up to Boston. Lord knows I'd cut back on my cost of living. Heck, I already hate the Yankees. :D

Yes shops in nYc have jacked up attitudes but for the issue in the original post . You just don't sell anybody spacers for any wheel you haven't seen.

What type of spacers ? What type of wheel? What kind of axle? If it was that easy it would be a standard.



If your trash get messed up, they are now liable for their mistake.


It looks like as stated before that they wanted to make sure they gave you the correct trash.

Regardless what the site stated you are not dealing with the person who wrote the article for the site.

S/F,
CEYA!

most shop employees i know (myself included) are usually pretty happy when a customer exhibits even the tiniest bit of knowledge about working on their own bikes. we're not condescending at my shop, and we're not a bunch of *******s, we come in, we do our jobs. if someone is wrong about something, or we don't quite get what they're saying because they don't articulate it properly, then we say something like "bring it in so i can look at it." and believe me, about a quarter of my job is trying to figure out what "the thing and the thing are rubbing and it's making this awful noise" or, "something down there is out of adjustment and it's not shifting well into third and fourth," means, while spending twice as long as it normally would trying to figure out what exactly it is that they're talking about. so yeah, we generally do appreciate it when someone comes in as says "my front derailleur is out of adjustment, and the chain is rubbing on it." because then all we have to do is write the ticket up and send them on their way, which saves them money, because when someone doesn't know the terminology, and we're getting slammed, the best thing we can do is write their ticket for a $75 tune and hope we fix whatever it is they had a problem with. so yeah, we damn well do like it when someone knows what they're talking about, because it helps us help them better. we put on clinics where we answer any questions a customer has about repairs to help them do it themselves if they need to. when a customer has a question about something, anything in the middle of an estimate, we answer it and we do it politely.

i'm sorry you had a bad experience with trackstar, but in all honesty, any shop ridiculously steeped in image and posing enough to call themselves "trackstar" isn't going to offer the best customer service in the world. the places where you'll find the best service have names like "bicycle bill's," or "Mel's," or "cambridge bikes." places that have an old school guy (who i sold school by virtue of actually having ridden a bike with 5-speed friction shifting when that's all there was) at the bike stand, a guy who knows everything but doesn't need flaunt it and make people feel tiny because they don't, small places that don't have pretensions about who they are and what they do, because at the end of the day, you're just a guy working in a bike shop, getting greasy and drinking beer. i would never go into a place called "trackstar." the name itself reeks of snobbery and pretensiousness.

i don't think the easiest way to do it is to just get a bunch of smaller spacers and slap everything together, because then you run into the problem you're having now, with not having enough of them. you measure it out and get the right number in the right widths and then you don't have to make 10 trips around the five boroughs hunting them down.

This is starting to seem odd to me. Trust me, I understand attitude and costs of going to shops in NYC. Racking my brain, I can't think of one I go to that treats me badly. Bikeworks, Trackstar, Velo, Both Larry and Jeff's uptown, Chelsea, Metro on 88th, and even Frank's.

I don't feel I have ever been taken for a ride, or talked down to. Maybe I am just lucky.

I graduated college with a bachelor's degree in Pure Mathematics.

perhaps you should've gotten it in applied mathematics instead.

wait, so your girlfriend witnessed the entire interaction, but asked you "what happened?" afterwards anyway?

Yes shops in nYc have jacked up attitudes but for the issue in the original post . You just don't sell anybody spacers for any wheel you haven't seen.

What type of spacers ? What type of wheel? What kind of axle? If it was that easy it would be a standard.



If your trash get messed up, they are now liable for their mistake.


It looks like as stated before that they wanted to make sure they gave you the correct trash.

Regardless what the site stated you are not dealing with the person who wrote the article for the site.

S/F,
CEYA!



Totally disagree. No one is going to be liable for selling the wrong axle spacers. And if there were an accident traceable to the spacers (which is well-nigh impossible), then it would be the spacer manufacturer who would be liable.

It's a spacer. There is no liability that comes from selling a spacer. If I walk into a shop and ask for a hammer, and the guy sells it to me, he's not liable if I knock you dead with it. As long as the sale is legal and the item is not regulated, you're not going to be liable.

25/50-cent spacers are not anything that requires looking at. Maybe I just wanted them to make some damn DIY jewelry. I didn't ask for help or advice, I just asked for some spacers.

HE WAS NOT LIABLE FOR ANYTHING.

This is starting to seem odd to me. Trust me, I understand attitude and costs of going to shops in NYC. Racking my brain, I can't think of one I go to that treats me badly. Bikeworks, Trackstar, Velo, Both Larry and Jeff's uptown, Chelsea, Metro on 88th, and even Frank's.

I don't feel I have ever been taken for a ride, or talked down to. Maybe I am just lucky.

i bet it's because you have a kickass screen name. :p

HE WAS NOT LIABLE FOR ANYTHING.


or maybe he was just looking out for you.

Maybe it is not just the bike shop here. I have heard mech's ask similar things, and no one ever argued.

I can't wait to see part III. Freedom of choice is a two way.

most shop employees i know (myself included) are usually pretty happy when a customer exhibits even the tiniest bit of knowledge about working on their own bikes. we're not condescending at my shop, and we're not a bunch of *******s, we come in, we do our jobs. if someone is wrong about something, or we don't quite get what they're saying because they don't articulate it properly, then we say something like "bring it in so i can look at it." and believe me, about a quarter of my job is trying to figure out what "the thing and the thing are rubbing and it's making this awful noise" or, "something down there is out of adjustment and it's not shifting well into third and fourth," means, while spending twice as long as it normally would trying to figure out what exactly it is that they're talking about. so yeah, we generally do appreciate it when someone comes in as says "my front derailleur is out of adjustment, and the chain is rubbing on it." because then all we have to do is write the ticket up and send them on their way, which saves them money, because when someone doesn't know the terminology, and we're getting slammed, the best thing we can do is write their ticket for a $75 tune and hope we fix whatever it is they had a problem with. so yeah, we damn well do like it when someone knows what they're talking about, because it helps us help them better. we put on clinics where we answer any questions a customer has about repairs to help them do it themselves if they need to. when a customer has a question about something, anything in the middle of an estimate, we answer it and we do it politely.

i'm sorry you had a bad experience with trackstar, but in all honesty, any shop ridiculously steeped in image and posing enough to call themselves "trackstar" isn't going to offer the best customer service in the world. the places where you'll find the best service have names like "bicycle bill's," or "Mel's," or "cambridge bikes." places that have an old school guy (who i sold school by virtue of actually having ridden a bike with 5-speed friction shifting when that's all there was) at the bike stand, a guy who knows everything but doesn't need flaunt it and make people feel tiny because they don't, small places that don't have pretensions about who they are and what they do, because at the end of the day, you're just a guy working in a bike shop, getting greasy and drinking beer. i would never go into a place called "trackstar." the name itself reeks of snobbery and pretensiousness.

i don't think the easiest way to do it is to just get a bunch of smaller spacers and slap everything together, because then you run into the problem you're having now, with not having enough of them. you measure it out and get the right number in the right widths and then you don't have to make 10 trips around the five boroughs hunting them down.




Good points and well said. I'm still looking for a "non-pretentious" shop in NYC. Fashion is everything here.

At least my rant is tapped. I really just don't care anymore. Cynicism and apathy win.

I'm going to start scouring over the crappy old wheels I've scavenged off of the streets for the 4mm I have left to fill.

This afternoon, I walked into a shop looking for something more basic than a nut or a screw, and walked out with less than nothing. Yet again, I encountered general mean-spiritedness in a NYC bike shop.

That's frustrating.

Sleep well.

Do you know if any of thes NYC shops need a friendly mid-westerner to workfor them? I really miss wrenching at a bike shop! My wife was raised in the NYC boroughs (and hates Ohio) so I'm not unfamiliar with them.

Good points and well said. I'm still looking for a "non-pretentious" shop in NYC. Fashion is everything here.




I don't know where you live but I go to a grimy little shop where all the delivery guys take their bikes--Champion Bikes between 103-4th on Amsterdam. Metro on 96th is friendly but those same spacers would've cost you ~ $2 apiece there.

I've been incredibly happy with my experiences at Toga (64/WEA)... really nice folks. Weird that there's so much attitude out there tho.

all issues of sizing and whatever other stuff aside, it's bizarre to me that a shop wouldn't sell a guy a handuful of assorted axles spacers.

i just don't get it, what do they have to lose? it's a couple cents worth of parts that they're going to mark up at LEAST 100%, it takes the mech 2 minutes (less if he's got his ***** even slightly together) to find them, ring the guy the up, and see a satisfied customer out the door.

what's not to like?

i was there working at habitat both times you came in. .. a different seatpost size we didn't have and hal helped you and also when marc helped you out and gave you advice about axle spacers.
i thought they were both totally nice to you.

if you think that bikeworks has an 'attitude' or a fashion pretention then the problem is within, dude. those guys are the most patient, humane bike mechs I've ever met. I also think that trackstar, despite seeming to be a fashionista organization are incredibly nice and they really seem to go out of their way (for me at least -- a humble and meek non-techie biker.)

if you go into a bike shop with a chip on your shoulder and a know everything attitude you might run into problems, though. when people come into my areas of expertise and have an arrogant demeanor I find them hard to help in more ways than one.

good bike shops in NYC:

bikeworks
trackstar
habitat
+others that I've never been to.

[color=darkgreen]

I'm still looking for a "non-pretentious" shop in NYC.

busy bee bikes on E6th between 1st and 2nd (i believe - a block west of the park for sure)

real cool guys. love conversions, have a million bits of junk lying around and won't dick you about if you as them to sell you some small **** like spacers.

and don't go in looking for attitude. maybe that way you won't encounter it. i never have, in trackstar, chelsea or habitat. well, actually yea i did once in habitat. that ****ing dorky looking short-haired guy in there, and the crusty wrench too, come to that, but that's just his steez…

busy bee will treat you fine

busy bee bikes on E6th between 1st and 2nd (i believe - a block west of the park for sure)

real cool guys. love conversions, have a million bits of junk lying around and won't dick you about if you as them to sell you some small **** like spacers.

and don't go in looking for attitude. maybe that way you won't encounter it. i never have, in trackstar, chelsea or habitat. well, actually yea i did once in habitat. that ****ing dorky looking short-haired guy in there, and the crusty wrench too, come to that, but that's just his steez…

busy bee will treat you fine

That's Emey's new shop right? I saw him in there a while back, after the other shop changed hands. I was going to suggest that he'd be a good guy to go to for small stuff like that.

I don't think I've ever bought spacers from a bike shop. I usually just buy about the right size washers from a hardware store...

Guess I'm weird.

Hmmm... I remember starting a thread called "I Hate A-Hole Bike Shops"... about idiot bicycle shop salesmen.

Check out NYC Velo too, on 2nd Ave and 4th Street. They're new and they don't act like bi-tches. They probably have spacers too (they were holding a set for me before).

i was there working at habitat both times you came in. .. a different seatpost size we didn't have and hal helped you and also when marc helped you out and gave you advice about axle spacers.
i thought they were both totally nice to you.




Both those times, both guys who helped were great.

Last time I was in there, Hal was remarkably sympathetic to the fact that I had a lemon bought off of ebay. I appreciated that. Yesterday, I was aware that the shops were closing, but I figured that my request would be quick to take care of. I went into Habitat about 15 minutes after my failed purchase at Trackstar. I bought rim tape for $3.50 and left *edit*Marc*edit* the change from a $5-spot, mainly because he was just helpful and explained, and because I appreciated his chatting the extra couple of minutes after closing. It's why I keep going back, and also because I implicitly trust a person like Hal. He just reeks competence and ethic (I posted about this in another thread, too, BTW)

I think that my "after"-rage has passed, so I'm going to retract my screw you to bike shop people and let you know that I don't really have anything against all people who work in bike shops. Think I'm more annoyed at the system--whatever it seems to be--than anything else. It's funny, because NYC seems very unique about certain things when it comes to retail. Like, the hardware stores here often have nothing, but no matter how small and cluttered it is, twenty seconds after entering one, a customer will be approached and tended to. Think maybe it's the necessity of getting people in and out as quickly as possible. But bike shops, from my experiences, are a crapshoot--seems like it's any given day, any given time, with no rhyme nor reason, you could encounter someone "with a chip" on their shoulder. I don't go in bearing a grudge, certainly not when I'm just hoping to find some spacers. I really just want to get in as quickly as possible, ask for the quick help, and leave. In fact, I'd say that it's not the occasional snippiness one gets, because one gets that everywhere in the city. It's simply the fact that it happens so often. And one might think that this is merely my perception, and that's a valid possibility, but I have to say, that sometimes it's been particularly unpleasant (yesterday would fall into that category--see, I was practically begging for some damn spacers.) And that sometimes happens to be not sometimes, but a lot more times than in other kinds of businesses here. I went into Trackstar because I had had a couple of decent experiences, and most importantly, they seemed to carry the kinds of things that I needed. I didn't go in looking for attitude. If pressed about it, I'd say that I feel a fashionista vibe about the place every time I go in there, but heck, I've been known to go into the Prada store with friends at times, so I'm not that sensitive about it. I go into a lot of pretentious shops in Manhattan, comes with the territory, I acknowledge that. I guess my overall comment is simply that one kind of has to hope and pray and cross their fingers upon entering a bike shop that the first employee who sees them isn't going to be in a bad mood. That sucks. It's a shop, I'm a customer, I just want to buy some stuff and be on my way. Additionally, I like bikes and learning, so I'm not uninterested in what the people who work there are doing. I can sit patiently to the side and watch the mechs. quite happily. I am not impatient. Why would I be looking for conflict?

Dolface, I think you pretty much summed up my feeling about the situation. Frustrated bewilderment.

I think HereNT has solved my problem for me most eloquently. I'll go see if I can't just find some bigger washers down at the hardware store.

Meantime, anyone know if one can order bulk spacers from any online businesses?

Finally, one promise right here: rant II is the finale. No trilogy or prelude or anything like that. No Episode I-III. It's over; this is the last time I'm going to bich about any bike shops in NYC. Maybe I'll offer a constructive comment if someone asks, but that's it. I am so weary of this topic.

Just order some.
www.biketoolsetc.com
I've gotta say I've seen some ridiculous bike shop attitudes, although for some reason they never pull them on me. Perhaps because it's immediately apparent I am old, cranky, and larger than most bike shop employees.

All I have to say in response to this long series of debate is. On Saturday, at the end of an already long work week, a few minutes before 8:00pm. A bewildered customer walks into a busy shop and asks for "hub spacers". I look at him in confusion, and ask "what kind?" "Hub spacers!" "For what purpose?" I asked again... I was secretly hoping he wasn't going to ask for slim spacers to put between his cog and hub, becuse they scare the "****" out of me and I try to steer people away from things that might cause bicycle and/or personal injury.
The customer leaves after a second or two, with a bewildered look on his face. I go back to finshing one of the other three customers that were waiting to be taken care of. Trying to get done quickly so I can make it the grocery store to buy food for the BBQ at the track the next day. One customer done and out the door, the previously bewildered customer walks back in and asks for "hub spacers" again, he also then tries to clarify about making a "single-speed" and reading something "online" about the need for new spacers. I look at him again and said "you might have to redish your wheel" and the spacers are probably not that neccesary for what you are doing. You should bring it in and we can go over it. I've asked this manytimes before and usually people just come back the next day with a wheel and they walk away with it properly adjusted. It's just that easy. Bikeshop guys really do like it when customers honestly know what they are talking about, it makes thing easier and most of us are of the opinion that everyone should be able to fix minor repairs at home. He asked again for spacers and out of sheer frustration, I said nope.
I didn't find out about this long thread until the next morning, when I got out to track for the benefit that was being thrown for our hospitalized friends, Spencer and Ozzie.
I am in the firm opinion that working on track bikes and singlespeeds is not for everyone. Chainline can be a motherf@cker, and if it's off, the next thing you know, you are flying over your handlebars from your chain popping of on the Williamsburg bridge and your being taken way in an ambulance. I also refuse to let people think that threading a fixed cog onto a normal threaded road hub is safe in any way, it's not.
I personally think our shop has the least attitutude of any in the city, except Bikeworks (who we idolize) and Busy Bee (who just confounds us). If you get attitude or a bad experience in any shop, go back and ask them why (or call them). If they give you attitude again, don't go back. If they actually explain why (I've been up since 5:00 am for a 45 mile morning Nyack ride, or I partied all night last night till 5:00 am, or, honstley sir, you just came off to me as a ******bag, maybe next time we meet it will be under better circumstances) you have your answer and you can save yourself buttloads of time.
Alot of bike shops in New York have attitude, alot of people in New York have attitude. Alot of people also walk in expecting attitude, and by getting prepared to "handle" the expected forthcoming attitude, give off even more attitude themselves. No one likes a ******bag, no likes being treated like a ******bag. Treat your LBS people like real live human beings and they will probably do the same to you.
If that doesn't work, get out there and ride harder. In the end, you'll feel better anyway.

Cheers,
Brad
Trackstar
212-982-2553

peripatetic - regarding the above - I see exactly what you mean - you have my sympathy.

bike works. thats all i have to say.

Is this thread about a 2mm spacer for a rear wheel on a beater bike ? I would have just tightened the rear wheel and let it pull the frame in.

Tony

Is this thread about a 2mm spacer for a rear wheel on a beater bike ? I would have just tightened the rear wheel and let it pull the frame in.

Tony




You got it about right, except I need about 4-5 mm.

I thought about your suggestion, Tony. But won't tightening the chainstays up that much possibly affect the chainline? Or also maybe put a lot of stress on the QR bolts/threading? As it's my first singlespeed conversion, I'm trying to get everything done just right without fudging, so as to avoid any disasters.

I'll try it.

You got it about right, except I need about 4-5 mm.

I thought about your suggestion, Tony. But won't tightening the chainstays up that much possibly affect the chainline? Or also maybe put a lot of stress on the QR bolts/threading? As it's my first singlespeed conversion, I'm trying to get everything done just right without fudging, so as to avoid any disasters.

I'll try it.




If was having a little trouble with "my first singlespeed conversion" and a bike shop guy suggested I bring the parts in to make sure it was getting done right......

I think I'd bring it in to the bike shop "to avoid any disasters"

Not that I'm saying anybody should follow my advise....

E/Roscoe

i can mail you some spacers today if you want, to get to NY it will probably only take a day or two.

This thread is a time thief. I want my five minutes back.

If was having a little trouble with "my first singlespeed conversion" and a bike shop guy suggested I bring the parts in to make sure it was getting done right......

I think I'd bring it in to the bike shop "to avoid any disasters"

Not that I'm saying anybody should follow my advise....

E/Roscoe




You're right. But let me clarify again.

One thing I've found in life in general is that if a person thinks they can figure something out--and they actually want to--they usually can. Along the way, if they hit a snag, they realize that they're stuck and they go ask for help.

It's a roadbike-ss conversion. It's not rocket science. I took off the 6-speed freewheel, took off all the derailers, cables and levers and extra chainring. After that, I threaded on a BMX ss freewheel (which fit just fine) then measured out the distances between the bb-chainring. Then I subtracted this distance from half the dropout measurement and this gave me the dropout-sprocket measurement. This distance allows the sprocket and chainring to line up. I found enough spacers at Bikeworks to get this distance just right on the drive side, but I was left with a 4/5-mm gap on the non-drive side. The original 6-sp. freewheel spacer was 12 mm. I went looking for the spacers to fill the remaining gap. The only "disaster" I was referring to was from putting any undue stress on the frame by just trying to jam the thing closed as suggested by Tony. I wasn't afraid that my work was going to cause any disasters, as long as I approached the problem step-by-step and logically. And in case my sagacity vis-a-vis my own safety is in doubt, I took an old Raleigh into Bikeworks last week for a fg conversion, because I needed cotterless cranks on it, and wanted to make sure that the chainline was right. I used a real track hub on that rear wheel because I don't believe in messing with 'suicide hub' setups myself.

Anyway, last thing I did was yesterday: I re-dished the wheel so that it sits symmetrically and evenly within the dropouts/brake pads. It took me about an hour, but looking at it, I'm pretty happy with how true it looks. I tried clamping the QR on to the rear wheel and frame, but the fit just isn't snug, so I'm not going to ride it.

For someone to look and confirm what I need, they would probably want to look at the wheel in the dropouts and make sure that the spacing is nice and snug. This would require not just the wheel, but the frame, too. Or, they could measure the total width between the threaded axle nuts with a caliper, and confirm that it added up to 126mm. But it takes me a little over 1/2 hr. from my apt. to get to Trackstar/Bikeworks/Habitat. That's an hour roundtrip. Someone asks me to come back with the wheel and spacers, that makes 2 hrs of travel to get the additional spacers, and then I'm going to get charged not just for the spacers, but for the labor. Maybe not for the labor, but most every time I've gone into a bike shop, I've been charged for any labor. An attached seatpost bolt cost me 5 bucks to be screwed in. A spacer added to my headset cost me 5 bucks to be screwed on. I understand why this is, and I've never complained: I walk into the shop, need some help, that takes time from work of the person helping me. They are paid for their time. So even though I could do it at home, no sweat, I'm going to get charged in the shop. Fine, that's the business, but I would prefer to buy my lunch with that money, and just pay for the spacers. I'm pretty sure that I can get the spacers onto the axle alright.

Anyone out there think I missed something?

Most of the bike shops I frequent have come from suggestions of people on this forum, whose advice I trust more than others. Though I feel like a fish out of water in a place like Trackstar (I don't ride track and I'm a relative newbie to fg riding), I frequent it because it's been recommended by many people here.

I'll state it one final time: I never go into a shop looking for attitude. If it's there, I don't go running and cowering, I just ask my question as quickly as possible.

I go into a shop looking for parts. This last time, I didn't get the part.

legalize_it, thanks for the offer. I'll PM you.

Brad at Trackstar, thank you for responding to the thread. I'm sorry that I wasn't better able to communicate with you.

[Peri, come to Boston sometime, and I'll buy you some spacers or something and take you to a real LBS, OK? Boston is only a $10 chinatown bus ride away!]

The 10$ Chinatown bus (Fu Wan) is now a 29$ ride last I heard. Still a good deal if you grab a Banh Mi and a dumplings before you hop on board....

this thread made me buy something from Trackstar.

thanks! it got here in 2 days.

']this thread made me buy something from Trackstar.

me too!!!

and me.

wow. i envy you, peri. i wonder how it is that you can juggle btwn having a job, a girlfriend, multiple bike projects as well as hourly maintenance of several "i hate/heart LBS" threads on this here humble forum. your time management skills are extraordinary.

For someone to look and confirm what I need, they would probably want to look at the wheel in the dropouts and make sure that the spacing is nice and snug. This would require not just the wheel, but the frame, too. Or, they could measure the total width between the threaded axle nuts with a caliper, and confirm that it added up to 126mm. But it takes me a little over 1/2 hr. from my apt. to get to Trackstar/Bikeworks/Habitat. That's an hour roundtrip. Someone asks me to come back with the wheel and spacers, that makes 2 hrs of travel to get the additional spacers, and then I'm going to get charged not just for the spacers, but for the labor. Maybe not for the labor, but most every time I've gone into a bike shop, I've been charged for any labor. An attached seatpost bolt cost me 5 bucks to be screwed in. A spacer added to my headset cost me 5 bucks to be screwed on. I understand why this is, and I've never complained: I walk into the shop, need some help, that takes time from work of the person helping me. They are paid for their time. So even though I could do it at home, no sweat, I'm going to get charged in the shop. Fine, that's the business, but I would prefer to buy my lunch with that money, and just pay for the spacers. I'm pretty sure that I can get the spacers onto the axle alright.

again, you don't have to take the frame in with the wheel. i explained earlier, and if you already have the drive-side spacing correct, all a mechanic would have to do is add however many spacers you need to get the spacing to 126mm with locknuts. there are 5 common rear dropout spacings found in the US, 110mm for BMX and some older cruisers, 120mm for track and some older road bikes and cruisers, 126mm for 5-6 speed road bikes, and some 7 speeds, 130mm for 8 and above, and 135mm for mountain bikes. surly frames have 132.5mm spacing so you can use a 130, or a 135mm hub if you want without spreading the frame too much, but really, 2.5mm on either side of the frame isn't all that much. but back to my point, if it's a road wheel with a threaded hub (for a freewheel), it most certainly came off a frame that was spaced at 126mm, and if there was any doubt while i was working on it, i would ask, and if the customer didn't know, i'd ask how old the bike is, or how many cogs were in/on the freewheel that came off. i wouldn't need to see the frame.

it's usually okay to squish/spread a frames dropouts around a hub within 1cm. if someone was trying to cram a 126mm hub into a 135 frame, i'd tell them to get a new wheel. and likewise vice/versa, but 126->130, or 130->135, in my book, is A-OK.