Living Car Free - Does riding/owning only a motorcycle or scooter make you car free?

Well, does it???

Yeah... but... this is a bicycle forum. :)

Sure, why not?

Motorcycles are like cars in some ways. They can keep up with traffic and there are insurance issues to deal with. They are unlike cars with respect to visibility, exposure to weather conditions, and passenger/cargo capacity. With respect to resource consumption they are in between cars and bikes.

it depends on how you define "car free"... if you're using a scooter or motorcycle (instead of a bike) in place of a car then i think that, by our definition, it DOESN'T make you car free. we think of car free as non-motorized-vehicle (IMHO).

if you're using a bike as a primary mode of transportation but you have and use a motorcycle/scooter then i think you could be considered, at least partially, car free. many of the people here fall into that category.

Owning a scooter or motorcycle doesn't make you car free in the sense that your optimizing your contributions to your personal and environmental health...

but...

A scooter that's built for one person (and can carry more) that gets 80+ mpg is a major improvement over a car that's built for 5+ people (but almost always carries one person) and gets less than 25 mpg...

Someone on another forum made a good point. "Car free" is just the topic of discussion here. It's not a requirement that posters be car free themselves (however you define it).

A scooter that's built for one person (and can carry more) that gets 80+ mpg is a major improvement over a car that's built for 5+ people (but almost always carries one person) and gets less than 25 mpg...

devil's advocate:
wouldn't it be safe to say then that someone owning a mini-cooper today is car free as compared to a person owning a woody-wagon in 1972?

not bashing your logic... just pickin' brains. :)

devil's advocate:
wouldn't it be safe to say then that someone owning a mini-cooper today is car free as compared to a person owning a woody-wagon in 1972?

not bashing your logic... just pickin' brains. :)

Nah. Mini Cooper is a car. And you can expect it to only get 28 mpg.

:)

I dunno, I've been struggling with this in my head (and quickly dismissing it as I could really care-less), but I would say no. I have a motorcycle as my only motorized vehicle -- a 500cc sportbike that gets about 55mpg which I might use about 2 to 3 times a week. I still say that I am not totally car-free, because I still have to deal with all the crap (albeit at a MUCH more reduced expense) as a 4 wheeled car i.e. gas, insurance, routine maintenance, state registration, etc (not to mention the intial cost I incured on expensive safety equipment).

It's still more practical (at least for me) to have a cheap motorcylce that costs a fraction of a car due to the fact that I sometimes have to get out to places w/o adequate access to public transit and way to far for my bicycle.

I'm going to have to start doing 60 to 80 mile round trips weekly, possible more or less. I've been considering the motorcycle option. Considering the cost of Zipcar it doesn't seem like a motorcycle would be much more, and then I would have it if I needed it.

No public transit options.

I'm going to have to start doing 60 to 80 mile round trips weekly, possible more or less. I've been considering the motorcycle option. Considering the cost of Zipcar it doesn't seem like a motorcycle would be much more, and then I would have it if I needed it.

No public transit options.

If you do go the motorcycle route, be sure to take the MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) class -- it helps tremendously, lets you skip the driving portion at the DMV, and usually gets you a discount on insurance.

Bicycle. See, I kept it relevant :).

I've already found a place in the next town over that offers the MSF course for $125. It's really my only option since I won't have a motorcycle until after I get the license. Chicken and egg sort of situation, but they provide a bike for the course.

I highly recommend the MSF course as well. I took it this summer, and learned so much! I felt truly much more confident in my abilities after taking it.

That is my plan sometday - to own a motorcycle, and a bike. I'm still going to love riding motorcycles, and figure they are cheaper than a car.

- b

My father never owned a bike period. But he looked upon his motorcycle as an alternative to the car and rode one until the last one was stolen fifty years ago! He felt that it was not a car subsitute.

I read some where on one of the enviromental websites that the cleanest new motorcycle, mile for mile, pollutes eight to nine times much as the dirtiest new car. And a scooter such as a Vespa or other two-stroke engine pollutes as much as THREE Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

Motorcycles/scooters only as car-free? You decide!

Well, does it???

If you don't own a car, then yes, you have met the technical criteria for being referred to as car free.

Is it in the spirit of the BikeForums "Living Car Free" forum? You'd have to ask those who were instrumental in this forum's creation.

Will you be viewed by this forum's regular visitors and contributors as being what they think of as car free? That would be up to each individual to decide.

For me the answer is no. From the standpoint of resource usage, pollution, infrastructure requirements and effect on the users general health, a motorcycle or scooter is not significantly different from a car.

I think BMW is starting to make bikes with catalytic convertors and I think honda has sold a few models with them, and fuel injection has been available for a while, which makes a difference, 2 strokes are bad but alot of scooters are available in 4 stroke and also with fuel injection, the data the environmentalists are using is probably old, eco groups have a broad range of credibility and many spread misinformation to further their own agenda, imagine that.

many enviromnmentalists are reaching for pie in the sky solutions (electric cars) and when something already exists (motorcycles/bicycles) they will knock them with false data, the best way to compare is the total energy consumed over the lifespan of a product from beginning to end, since fossil fuel are used in every step we need to keep track of the product from nuts and bolts to the finished vehicle past it's usefull service life and how readily the materials are recycled, aside from heavy use by a racer a good bicycle trumps all other forms of transportation in that analysis and I would bet a motorcycle or scooter would come in second, scooters tend to be more cheaply made so a shorter usefull life may affect them.

also no one ever takes into acount the pollution cause by fixing road surfaces because of damage cause by cars and trucks, if everyone road a motorcycle our roads would last forever with minimal repairs, a perfect example would be a racetrack that has both a MC and auto track like pocono in PA the road course for the cars is all torn up while the special MC track is still very smooth,

I read some where on one of the enviromental websites that the cleanest new motorcycle, mile for mile, pollutes eight to nine times much as the dirtiest new car. And a scooter such as a Vespa or other two-stroke engine pollutes as much as THREE Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

Motorcycles/scooters only as car-free? You decide!

Source? :)

I think BMW is starting to make bikes with catalytic convertors and I think honda has sold a few models with them, and fuel injection has been available for a while, which makes a difference, 2 strokes are bad but alot of scooters are available in 4 stroke and also with fuel injection, the data the environmentalists are using is probably old, eco groups have a broad range of credibility and many spread misinformation to further their own agenda, imagine that.

many enviromnmentalists are reaching for pie in the sky solutions (electric cars) and when something already exists (motorcycles/bicycles) they will knock them with false data, the best way to compare is the total energy consumed over the lifespan of a product from beginning to end, since fossil fuel are used in every step we need to keep track of the product from nuts and bolts to the finished vehicle past it's usefull service life and how readily the materials are recycled, aside from heavy use by a racer a good bicycle trumps all other forms of transportation in that analysis and I would bet a motorcycle or scooter would come in second, scooters tend to be more cheaply made so a shorter usefull life may affect them.

also no one ever takes into acount the pollution cause by fixing road surfaces because of damage cause by cars and trucks, if everyone road a motorcycle our roads would last forever with minimal repairs, a perfect example would be a racetrack that has both a MC and auto track like pocono in PA the road course for the cars is all torn up while the special MC track is still very smooth,

True indeed.

Motorcycles/scooters only as car-free? You decide!

As I mentioned earlier, I don't consider myself fully living the "carfree" life since I have a motorcycle as my only form of motorized transport. However, my reasons for that basically boil down to the fact that I am still a slave to big oil corporations and the State (basically one in the same) with that machine even though I don't feel the sting as much as those in the cage.

My main methods of getting around are my bicycle, my own two feet, public transportation, and a motorcycle (in that order) -- I would actually love to get rid of the motorcycle, but there are certain parts of the area that I need to get to in a timely fashion that are not accessible except by auto (thanks to half a century of horrible city planning and rampant consumerism). The motorcyle provides an economically feasible solution to that dilemma.

Source? :)

Honestly, I don't remember exactly, but I think it's Grist magazine, the Ask Umbra column.

I read some where on one of the enviromental websites that the cleanest new motorcycle, mile for mile, pollutes eight to nine times much as the dirtiest new car. And a scooter such as a Vespa or other two-stroke engine pollutes as much as THREE Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

:eek: Hmmm... the landstander is skeptical.

Isn't this group about relying on yourself for the transportation? I have a motorcycle and when I ride it I feel lame. I cruse past cyclist and want to say "but but but it's not like it seems here, I'm one of you guys". When I'm on the motorcycle I'm NOT one of them; you can't have it both ways, pain and simple. This year maybe one out of 12 days I ride the Honda, the bike is only a year old and I will probably sell it this comming spring; should have never bought it. (new lite wheel set for my road bike with what is left over!) :) oh yeah,,,,,

Isn't this group about relying on yourself for the transportation? I have a motorcycle and when I ride it I feel lame. I cruse past cyclist and want to say "but but but it's not like it seems here, I'm one of you guys". When I'm on the motorcycle I'm NOT one of them; you can't have it both ways, pain and simple. This year maybe one out of 12 days I ride the Honda, the bike is only a year old and I will probably sell it this comming spring; should have never bought it. (new lite wheel set for my road bike with what is left over!) :) oh yeah,,,,,


Yeah, sounds like you got yours for "sport" and not to actually commute to somewhere inaccessible by bicycle or public transport. I feel the exact same way as you though when riding by a cyclist, like I'm a traitor LOL.

Modern scooters and motorcycles can do very well on the environmental standpoint. BMW's lines are very good, and my Aprilia scooter is a fuel injected two stroke, and it meets all the agressive Euro emissions guidelines through 2010. It produces no visible smoke, and only uses a liter of oil every 2000 miles.

I suppose in the end you can't draw a clear line between people who use 'too much' resources, and people who don't. Does the guy who walks everywhere he goes get to claim that cyclists aren't really 'car free' because they had to be transported by car, built in factories, etc? What about the barefoot lady, does she get to claim that the walker's shoes are a waste of resources? I'm not sure.. The point is that people should do what they can to limit their uses and make the best use of what you have.

peace,
sam

Yeah, sounds like you got yours for "sport" and not to actually commute to somewhere inaccessible by bicycle or public transport. I feel the exact same way as you though when riding by a cyclist, like I'm a traitor LOL.

oh yeah your 100% right, and Im not one that is car free I just came in to check out this group and I think it is a wonderfull goal. Got the motorcycle and like to show the cagers that I dont think there is a car out there that I can't waste with my bike. Blow every one of 'em away, like sweet two wheeled revenge, a payback for the times I'm helpless against them on my bicycles... :) I live in the city and have a bike with a rack and saddle bags I take to the store, ride as much as I can on my road bike, winter its the mountain bike if there is snow. My car is an '04 and just sits; have service truck for my job.

BMW motorcycles have had cats for years. The converter on my 2000 BMW R1100S is bigger than many you'd see on cars. They don't advertise it but BMW is an eviro minded company. They were producing ULEV vehicles long ago and have been working on hydrogen powered cars since the 50's.

Nobody pressures them to make the cleanest burning motorbikes in the world. I value this and vote with my wallet.

In a year or so I hope to only own a car for occasional use and a BMW designed Mini would be a pretty good choice. They get alot better than 28mpg, in response to whoever stated that it was what you should expect.

Back to motorcycles. There's a lot more to riding a motorcycle than most people imagine. My wife went through the MSF course and did great. She could never get comfortable with riding in traffic however. Looking out for yourself on a motorcycle is a lot of work and full time. She had a lot of cofidence going into this since she's a great bicycle handler and ex-racer in road and mountain biking. I'll be selling all her riding gear and BMW F650.

The biggest detracter to motorcycle operation is the tires. Having to replace tires every 5-10K miles in bothersome. That's easily six motorcycle tires in the time that a small car would wear out four. And, if you get a nail in a motorcycle tire, it's often advisable to replace it rather than repair it.

The way I see it, a relatively clean burning small car that gets 50mpg is better in some ways than a motorcycle. I just hate replacing tires, even on my bicycles.


Cheers

The question should be does it matter? One lives car free due to econmic reasons, another lives car-free due to environmental reasons, if having motorcycle does not violate the reason why one does not have a car then there is no problem, right?
In our society, a car has become a status symbol, but let's not make "car-free" a status symbol among us cyclists. At least, I do not think it should be a status symbol.

Back to motorcycles. There's a lot more to riding a motorcycle than most people imagine. My wife went through the MSF course and did great. She could never get comfortable with riding in traffic however. Looking out for yourself on a motorcycle is a lot of work and full time. She had a lot of cofidence going into this since she's a great bicycle handler and ex-racer in road and mountain biking. I'll be selling all her riding gear and BMW F650.

The biggest detracter to motorcycle operation is the tires. Having to replace tires every 5-10K miles in bothersome. That's easily six motorcycle tires in the time that a small car would wear out four. And, if you get a nail in a motorcycle tire, it's often advisable to replace it rather than repair it.

Selling the F650? If its a pre-GS, I'll buy it. :) Just kidding. Or... Maybe not kidding.. I've been meaning to get an F650 for a while, seems like it would suit me well, but I'd prefer a non-fuel injected version, so I can do more of my own maintainence. I suppose I could be talked into a GS, but the dealership just scares me, things are so expensive there...

You should do better with tires on the F650 than the R1100, since you aren't pounding them with those extra CCs all the time. But its true, motorcycles do wear out tires faster. I think there are some longer range touring tires that are meant to take a little more abuse at the expense of a little traction, but they can be worth it for frequent riders.

peace,
sam

Seriously, I wouldn't mind having a motorcycle or a bigger scooter from time to time. It saves on gas and gets you around, and you can ride between cars (in some states, at least), and it's not as polluting as cars, so I'd be cool with having one.

Koffee

Yeah... but... this is a bicycle forum.

LOL :D

My 1993 BMW K1100 had a catalytic converter, as well as anti-lock brakes, as does the 2000 R1100 model that I drive now. Way ahead of the curve on safety and emissions. Almost all of them have secure hard luggage also, for carrying stuff. And shaft drive for minimal maintenance. An excellent car replacement, if not cheap to run. However, a 45mpg motorcycle is a pretty good way to reduce one's carbon footprint, not to mention one's parking and freeway footprint too! (I often split lanes here, where it is legal).

I admire all of you who can go vehicle-free, but for some it is just not yet practical. I wish our government were wise enough to phase in a carbon tax over time, to reduce fossil fuel usage and CO2 emissions, as well as to fund better public transport and vehicle alternatives. Some day it will be necessary, but obviously it won't happen in the next few years.

Bah if you want to go with a moped, get a whizzer....100+mpg...and just about as fast.

My wife and I were about *this* close to picking up a 2005 Yamaha Vino 125. We worked out the math, and found that grarging one of our cars for eight months and riding the scooter instead would save us over $1000 a year. But, we have all but abandoned the plan now, what with the upcoming winter and the fact that she has already prepaid the insurance on the car until April 2006. I've posted a topic in this forum in regards to this issue, please check it out...

I've been thinking about getting a "motorized bicycle" - somewhat as a toy and also as a bit of a crutch when I don't want to take the bus. (now that I'm about sell the car)

I've never owned a motorbike but I find early 1900's bicycle/motorbike hybrids uber cool. Take a look at this page and tell me those aren't pure sex on wheels:
http://home.planet.nl/~motors-20th-century/drawings.htm

See also: http://www.motorizedbikes.com/
and http://freespace.virgin.net/stones.ukp/triumph.htm

You COULD pedal those ones if you wanted to bike. Or if you ran out of pocket change for the fuel... ;)

A motorcycle is not a car. Therefore I would say yes, riding/owning a motorcycle does make you car free (so long as you don't have a car). :D

BMW motorcycles have had cats for years. The converter on my 2000 BMW R1100S is bigger than many you'd see on cars. They don't advertise it but BMW is an eviro minded company. They were producing ULEV vehicles long ago and have been working on hydrogen powered cars since the 50's.

Nobody pressures them to make the cleanest burning motorbikes in the world. I value this and vote with my wallet.

In a year or so I hope to only own a car for occasional use and a BMW designed Mini would be a pretty good choice. They get alot better than 28mpg, in response to whoever stated that it was what you should expect.

Back to motorcycles. There's a lot more to riding a motorcycle than most people imagine. My wife went through the MSF course and did great. She could never get comfortable with riding in traffic however. Looking out for yourself on a motorcycle is a lot of work and full time. She had a lot of cofidence going into this since she's a great bicycle handler and ex-racer in road and mountain biking. I'll be selling all her riding gear and BMW F650.

The biggest detracter to motorcycle operation is the tires. Having to replace tires every 5-10K miles in bothersome. That's easily six motorcycle tires in the time that a small car would wear out four. And, if you get a nail in a motorcycle tire, it's often advisable to replace it rather than repair it.

The way I see it, a relatively clean burning small car that gets 50mpg is better in some ways than a motorcycle. I just hate replacing tires, even on my bicycles.

Cheers

Funny, our '94 BMW 325i was labelled a gross polluter by the state of California and we could only take it to a smog test only station while we owned it. It always passed but just barely according to the printout. Oh, average fuel economy was around 19-20mpg. Not exactly miserly on gas IMO.

I owned a '00 Toyota Tundra fullsize pickup that was a ULEV and that had a 4.7l V8 engine. I don't own that vehicle anymore though, just didn't have the need and it was horrible on gas.

by definition (courtecy of Dictionary.com)

car
4-wheeled motor vehicle

Motorcycle
A two-wheeled motor vehicle resembling a heavy bicycle, sometimes having two saddles and a sidecar with a third wheel.

Bicycle
A vehicle consisting of a light frame mounted on two wire-spoked wheels one behind the other and having a seat, handlebars for steering, brakes, and two pedals or a small motor by which it is driven.

http://freespace.virgin.net/stones.ukp/triumph.htm

These are pretty cool! So are the ones on that page of sketches. What kind of mileage do bikes set up like this get? How fast to they go? Are they/the motors expensive? Do you need some kind of a license to have one on the road? I'd LOVE to have something like that for longer trips, heavy loads, big hills, winter riding... :)