Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - chainline, chains, obsessions

my drivetrain is not silent. i want it to be. please help.

it was quieter BEFORE i upgraded components and slackened my chain! im going a little crazy, but i will try to be methodical:

first off, ill admit that the chainline is not spot-on perfect. but its off by less than 1mm. if my measurements are precise, it is off by exactly 0.6075mm. and otherwise my setup is pretty ideal: 1/8" campy ring, suntour pro cog and cranks, shimano bb. there are no stiff links or tight spots. i have the chain at the slackest it should ever be. before i got the wipperman i was running a junk $4 bmx chain, and it was quieter then!

i thought maybe i just needed to break in the new setup. ive ridden it for a good 100-150 miles or so. still clattering like i just got married. BUT-- my old chain noise (which i attributed to the not-perfect chainline) was a fairly constant one, and the (louder) noise i hear now is only while actively pedaling. when i just let the cranks spin the noise goes away........

i thought wipperman was a great chain. never has my bike been so loud! i just dont get it.

Is your cog 0.6075mm inboard or outboard of your chainring?

Someone once told me that a lot of the good chains are louder than the crappy ones. I don't know how true that is though.

If the noise is a problem only when pedaling I'd be re-checking the crank bolts, chain ring bolts and pedals. Make sure those bolts are greased and torqued. Pedals need some TLC as well, and can sound like a loose crank arm when they're not happy.

DanO

it is 'inboard'. i have the chainring on the outside of the spider and it is better there (if thats what you were thinking of changing). according to sheldons chart, i could try a different cog. the eai one would improve things by like 0.3mm. would that really make a difference?

it definitely sounds like 'chain clatter' to me, but maybe there is a flex issue thats causing it. i was away from my tools for 6 weeks and i only checked the chainring bolts, but they are good. i will go check the crank bolts right now and report back...

ok i pulled out the torque wrench and got the bolts to turn some. road around the block and it DID seem a little better. i dunno. maybe just placebo. maybe i should tighten them more? dont wanna crack the crank arms. i torqued to abou 360-400 range. isnt that usually good?

I believe my FSA cranks specify 35-40 lbs. I like to stay on the light side, but sometimes go that 'smidgen' over.

DanO

it is 'inboard'. i have the chainring on the outside of the spider and it is better there (if thats what you were thinking of changing). according to sheldons chart, i could try a different cog. the eai one would improve things by like 0.3mm. would that really make a difference?

it definitely sounds like 'chain clatter' to me, but maybe there is a flex issue thats causing it. i was away from my tools for 6 weeks and i only checked the chainring bolts, but they are good. i will go check the crank bolts right now and report back...

ok i pulled out the torque wrench and got the bolts to turn some. road around the block and it DID seem a little better. i dunno. maybe just placebo. maybe i should tighten them more? dont wanna crack the crank arms. i torqued to abou 360-400 range. isnt that usually good?

I was going to say, if the cog was out slightly too far, you could meticulously face the inner part of the cog so it threads on a tiny bit farther.
360-400 sounds good, I wouldn't go any farther, but that might just be me.

You sir, have OCD problems. This is scaring me. Seriously. Ride your bicycle, then ride it some more.

.6075 mm. Is this a joke?

unless im measuring wrong, then.... no. but its loooud. i swear! it sounds like a uncared for mtb caught between gears. i swear.

what's your current lube situation like?

it's funny i went to bill ron's shop a while back asking questions about my first conversion build. he basically said anything within 5 mm is totally fine and acceptable for chainline. i love a quiet train but i thought it very interesting that one of the best fixed gear(or geared for that matter) wrenchs i can think of brushed off the chasing of the perfect chainline.

it's funny i went to bill ron's shop a while back asking questions about my first conversion build. he basically said anything within 5 mm is totally fine and acceptable for chainline. i love a quiet train but i thought it very interesting that one of the best fixed gear(or geared for that matter) wrenchs i can think of brushed off the chasing of the perfect chainline.

I'm with bill. My first conversion was a suzue hub jammed into the chainstays of an old nishiki, and I used the axle nuts to pull the stays in to the right spacing. Chainline wasn't what you'd call ideal, but that bike rode just fine.

I can appreciate perfection, but I'm usually perfectly happy with 'good enough'.

what's your current lube situation like?

Actually, this is a very good point. If you just run it with that gunk they ship it in, you might as well put peanut butter and gravel on your chain. Lube with the good stuff, at least some tri-flow.

Side note: I know a guy (old BMXer) who once packed his hubs with peanut butter because he didn't have any grease and wanted to go out riding. He said it wasn't half bad.

Actually, this is a very good point. If you just run it with that gunk they ship it in, you might as well put peanut butter and gravel on your chain. Lube with the good stuff, at least some tri-flow.

Side note: I know a guy (old BMXer) who once packed his hubs with peanut butter because he didn't have any grease and wanted to go out riding. He said it wasn't half bad.

crunchy or smooth?

5mm off is a bit rough. I'd deal with 2-3, maybe. What kind of pedals? Try overhauling your pedal bearings. When I start to hear a noise in the drivetrain, I overhaul everything, BB, pedals, crankbolts, rear hub, chain, etc. I have OCD too probably.

Side note: I know a guy (old BMXer) who once packed his hubs with peanut butter because he didn't have any grease and wanted to go out riding. He said it wasn't half bad.

Creamy or crunchy? Inquiring minds want to know.

If I had to guess, I would say creamy.

Crunchy would probably work well if you didn't have bearings either.

What do the inner plates of the chain look like? I just changed a cheapo KMC BMX chain (noisy as hell) and now use a Sram PC-1 (hardly any sound, and no sound at all if I'm not actively pedaling). I also thought the noise was due to imperfect chainline (1mm), but it turns out that the angled inner side of the inner plates can take in the cog teeth smoothly as the chain enters the cog... which the perfectly flat KMC inner plates rattled on. Try and spin the crank on a repair stand. If the chian jumps up and down in the air as it runs along, it's prolly a chain issue.

That's the kind of inner plate the Sram has: http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/274/118609.jpg

i love reeding about paranoid cyklists.....a loud chain!! buhuhuhuh

How much wear do your cog and CR have?

If you put a new chain on a worn cog and CR it will make noise. Once the chain "stretches" it will not make noise.

Give it some time, I bet the sound decreases in a few weeks.

This just happened to me. I replaced my chain and CR but not the cog. The cog was fairly new so I kept it.
The first few weeks it was a little annoying. Now, it is dead quite.

did you say you are using a Suntour Superbe Pro Crank Set with a Shimano BB? That might be part of the chainline issue...Superbe uses a ISO taper (like campy) not a JIS (like Shimano)...there is a difference. Try miche Track BB cheap and quite adjustable (no cup flange). I went thought the exact same problem...coupled with my OCD I went efin' nuts trying to figure this out...but it worked.

Yeah you people spend too much time worrying about this stuff.

the cranks are road. i thought they took jis. seemed to go on just fine. am i wrong? i think the 107mm bb would be too narrow (itd make my chainline worse). could you explain how this taper issue could be causing the problem?

I'm not entirely sure from your original post: is your cog also 1/8"?

Also, you don't mention what gear you're running--if it's a small cog check to make sure that the chain isn't hitting the lockring.

I feel your pain entirely... a quiet drivetrain is the new sex.

could you explain how this taper issue could be causing the problem?

Because of the two different tapers, the crank will either go on a little closer, or sit a little further out than what the stated width is. I'm not really sure which way is which... I'm using a campy taper on a shimano BB and it actually helped my chainline, but now sometimes under tourque it seems like it's a little gritty, almost shifting a little. I need to look at it this weekend and see if anything is getting worn...

Anyways, I had pretty much the same problem you're having, and found it was the lube I was using. Someone else posted that you want at least tri-flow, and I'd agree. I originally ended up just picking up some 3-in-one and trying that because I was out of lube, and my chain IMMEDIATLY got quieter. The next day it was silent. Nothing was different at all. OK, so it was a lot dirtier, but it was silent and dirty. After some advice here and from the BlackLabels, I switched over to the tri-flow when I last changed my chain, and that's just about as quiet...

Hope that helps some.

Superbe Pro cranks take a 112mm ISO (Campy) taper BB, if they're the road doubles... JIS taper will work, but it'll deform the crankarm and most likely be noisy as well.

-s

It can also crack the crank arm if you have it on the wrong taper. I have had a lot of friends thought it was alright to put their old dura-ace cranks (campy look-alike) on a superbe pro bb until they found huge cracks forming from the spindle area. I actually had a friend break a crank while riding and go down hard because of this. DO NOT MIX TAPERS

the cranks are road. i thought they took jis. seemed to go on just fine. am i wrong? i think the 107mm bb would be too narrow (itd make my chainline worse). could you explain how this taper issue could be causing the problem?


Okay, I have the track version of the Suntour Superbe Pro. The Miche nailed my chainline. (keep in mind you can migrate the BB in the shell a few mm each way to fine tune it because of the lack of the flange) I also have a Road Double Suntour Superbe that I plan to use on a new project, I know this much; Sheldon Brown's Site says a Sym. 111mm Campy is the choice. Unless you run your chain ring in the inboard position on the double (which I think looks lame IMO, if you care) that will work If not check this out.

Outboard pos. on a typical road double is 47.5mm from the cen. of the seat tube inboard typically 42mm appr. BB for Suntour SP 111mm. 47.5mm-42mm= 5.5mm (111mm-5.5mm= 105.5MM) Miche BB is 107mm and considering you can postion it slightly left to right I think you can afford the 1.5mm diff. you should be good to go Just make sure your stuff is torqued (30-32 ft. lbs.) BB cups and crank bolts.

deform the crankarm? well is it too late or should i still try a new bb?
right now im using a 110mm shimano and (unless im a moron and cant use a ruler and some arithmetic) the chainring is already out too far..................

ok lets be precise about this. i have a phil track hub + a suntour superbe cog. according to sheldons measurements that means the rear end = 43.68mm (36.75+6.93) from tooth to center.

my seattube is 1 1/8" tubing. half of that is 14.2875mm
distance from outside of tube to center of chainring tooth is 30mm
so chainline up front is 44.2875mm.


[oh- and inboard chainring is out of the question. kinda silly to consider when we are discussing perfection. and ditto on the lube issues.]

When measuring front end chain line I rest the 1CM mark on my straight edge on in the center of the chainring tooth and take the measurement from where the ruler hits the tube in the center. forget about the tube dia. if its round the ruler will always touch the center point.

I say the 107 should set you straight.

When measuring front end chain line I rest the 1CM mark on my straight edge on in the center of the chainring tooth and take the measurement from where the ruler hits the tube in the center. forget about the tube dia. if its round the ruler will always touch the center point.

I say the 107 should set you straight.

Yeah, plus if you measure from the chainring to the side of the tube, you're not accounting for paint and powdercoat thickness, which at four places past the decimal point DOES become an issue.
Better yet, measure from the chainring to each side (left/right) of the tube and take the average.

so how exactly do you measure chainline? i just got new cranks/chaingrings/chain/cogs and it's EXTREMELY noisy, like gratingly loud and doesn't sound like it's good on the bike at all. definitely sounds like a mountain bike not in the right gear at all. everything is 1/8". it's lubed well. basically the only thing i can think of is chainline. it "looks" okay, but i'd like to measure it and see how far it's off.

so how exactly do you measure chainline? i just got new cranks/chaingrings/chain/cogs and it's EXTREMELY noisy, like gratingly loud and doesn't sound like it's good on the bike at all. definitely sounds like a mountain bike not in the right gear at all. everything is 1/8". it's lubed well. basically the only thing i can think of is chainline. it "looks" okay, but i'd like to measure it and see how far it's off.


http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ch.html#chainline

Regarding rear chainline, from Sheldon's site:

"To measure rear chainline, the easiest way is to measure the distance from the inside of the rear fork end (or the outside of the axle locknut) to the middle of the sprocket. Double this, subtract it from the over-lock-nut dimension of the hub (or the frame spacing , which should be the same), then divide the result in half, and you have the rear chainline."

Huh?
I can't make sense out of that.
Could someone rephrase that, please?
Thanks.

its easy. do you know your frames spacing? measure from the middle of the cog to the inside edge of the fork end or dropout. add this to 1/2 of the frame spacing. OR if you have hubs and cogs listed here, you can just add the two 'chainline' measurements listed: http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ch.html#chainline

ok i just ordered a miche 107 bb. well see if it makes a difference. im guessing i need a new tool for it (never used iso bb before)?

ok i just ordered a miche 107 bb. well see if it makes a difference. im guessing i need a new tool for it (never used iso bb before)?


Same as campy BB tool.