Advocacy & Safety - So what would you do?

I was stopped at the corner of an intersection today, waiting for the red to turn green. Just before I got the green light a jacka@# in a Ford Escape stops over the crosswalk lane. I mean COMPLETELY over it, if I would have stayed between the lines of the lane I would be blocked by his vehicle. I see this time and time again on my commute to work but this was way overboard. I made the decision right then and there to teach this guy a lesson.

I began to cross the street and when I got to the front of his car it just so happens that his headlight got in the way of my foot :D . I continued on my way but I looked back a few seconds later to see what his course of action would be. It seems he was not impressed and made a right turn from the center lane to chase me. I slowed down quite a bit to see what he had to say about my performance. He finally caught up to me and yelled, which is understandable, "why the fu@# did you kick my truck" to which I replied "because you were completely over the crosswalk lane." So he sped up and pulled into a driveway about 30 meters a head and began to get out of his vehicle. Thanks to the great maneuverability of a bicycle I just turned around in the opposite direction. I looked back to see him reversing into the street very quickly to make another hopeless attempt at trying to catch me. I reached the intersection that I had just crossed and turned left and went about ten meters and stopped to see what he would do next. I guess by the time he reached the intersection there were too many cars and he was stuck. I turned around again and continued in my original direction taking a few side streets just to make sure he wasn't still following me.

How would have you handled this situation? Clearly the guy doesn't care about the safety of others, which is typical of SUV drivers, not all but a good majority. I could care less if I did cause damage to his vehicle, in fact I'd be happy if I did cause damage, I'm just so sick of these clueless people that keep putting my life and the lives of others in danger because they can't follow the rules of the road and stop behind a white line. I just wonder how much faster they're going to get to their destination by pulling a head a massive 5-10 feet.

I'm sure you will get plenty of posts telling you how foolish you were, but I say, YOU GO GUY.
Glad you gave him the slip and are safe.

Not sure how exactly blocked your way, but do understand that some folks just seem to think that they own the road... and can be a real PITA.

On the downside, now this guy probably feels justified in targeting cyclists... the next cycist may get a real surprise for no reason.

I let it go.

Were you riding your bike through a cross walk? I am not sure I get it.

Way to make an impression. You get to be cop, judge, jury, and executioner.

Why were you in the crosswalk?

I think beating up on his headlight was unfair, you should have just walked over the front of his truck, and if the guy followed you etc then beat his ass.

Today I was riding to work on a bike path that crosses several streets at crosswalks. There was a driver blocking one crosswalk (they seem to think those are the stop lines). This happens almost every day to me at least once on my commute.

I slowed down, dinged my bell, and pointed down at the crosswalk. The driver gave me a "Huh?" look, and then backed up a few inches. I smiled and waved, called out "Thank you!", and continued across. One more educated driver.

I must say that drivers don't always respond to this routine by backing up. But I don't get in any fights. Perhaps a few of the ones who are too proud to back up as a result of my polite reminder will nevertheless take note of the crosswalk the next time?

I understand your frustration, but perhaps a low-key approach would be more productive. It's certainly better for your peace of mind.

I slowed down, dinged my bell, and pointed down at the crosswalk. The driver gave me a "Huh?" look, and then backed up a few inches. I smiled and waved, called out "Thank you!", and continued across. One more educated driver.


This way makes the right impression. farkman - I'd sure hate to be the next cyclist in your town that guy sees!

Sorry for not explaining it better but I don't know the exact name of the lane. In my area there are three lines when you approach an intersection, one thick line and two thin lines. First, the thick line is where cars are supposed to stop behind when waiting at a red light. Then about 3 feet away from the thick line is a thin line which is the the most right a ped/cyclist should go when crossing the street. Another 5-6 feet from the first thin line is another thin line which is the most left a ped/cyclist should go. It looks like this.

Intersection on this side I < 5-6' > I < 3' > II Stopped cars on this side

The single (I) are the thin lines and the double (II) is the thick line. The guy was over the second thin line (closest to the intersection) in the center lane. Its not like I go over to his lane and block him so why does he come into my crossing lane and block me putting me into potential danger. People who are to his right and turning right can't see me because he is so far forward. The people turning right move up so far to check for traffic that I cannot even get back onto the sidewalk because it's being blocked. When someone starts to put me or other peds/cyclists in additional danger because they're too lazy/stupid/impatient to stop behind the appropriate line then I begin to take action, if you will.

Are you riding your "maneuverable" bicycle on the sidewalks, and crossing intersections at crosswalks?

The driver was wrong for stopping beyond the line, but ehhh.... look in the mirror.

bikepacker67

Actually the sidewalks here are dual purpose. One part is a regular sidewalk and right next to it is a smooth paved section for bikes. Even if the bike portion wasn't there I still have the right to ride on the sidewalk. And just past the intersection there is an uphill section where I don't feel completely comfortable going 20km/h on the road while cars pass within inches of me doing 60km/h. On the way to work though it's better because I can do it at about 45km/h and there is much less traffic.

So if you don't cross the road at intersection crosswalks then where do you cross the road, wherever you feel like? I mean where should I be crossing the road if it isn't at an intersection.

Let me make it clear that this occured at a four way intersection with lights for both cars and pedestrians (I had the crossing light at the time), not some crosswalk in the middle of the road with blinking lights and such. I don't know what kinds of systems you guys have in the States.

The driver gave me a "Huh?" look, and then backed up a few inches. I smiled and waved, called out "Thank you!", and continued across. One more educated driver.

I wouldn't count on it.......


Sorry for not explaining it better

Oh, I think we get it....we're just not sure of the wisdom or riding on a sidewalk....

I don't see why you had to stay within the lines. I would just go around him. If there was some barrier to my left that put me in a squeeze between it and the car, then I'd probably do something passive-aggressive, like make a big deal about how difficult it is to squeeze by such an inconsiderate doofus, you know, kinda struggle a little bit more than its worth.

bikepacker67

So if you don't cross the road at intersection crosswalks then where do you cross the road, wherever you feel like? I mean where should I be crossing the road if it isn't at an intersection.

Let me make it clear that this occured at a four way intersection with lights for both cars and pedestrians (I had the crossing light at the time), not some crosswalk in the middle of the road with blinking lights and such. I don't know what kinds of systems you guys have in the States.

You'll find that most of us ride on the road and we cross intersections with the rest of the traffic. I think in most states here in the U.S., if you are acting like a pedestrian by riding on the sidewalk and using the crosswalks, you are required to dismount and walk your bike across, like a pedestrian. Were you mounted on your bike when you kicked the guy's headlight?

Actually the sidewalks here are dual purpose. One part is a regular sidewalk and right next to it is a smooth paved section for bikes. Even if the bike portion wasn't there I still have the right to ride on the sidewalk. And just past the intersection there is an uphill section where I don't feel completely comfortable going 20km/h on the road while cars pass within inches of me doing 60km/h. On the way to work though it's better because I can do it at about 45km/h and there is much less traffic.

So if you don't cross the road at intersection crosswalks then where do you cross the road, wherever you feel like? I mean where should I be crossing the road if it isn't at an intersection.

Let me make it clear that this occured at a four way intersection with lights for both cars and pedestrians (I had the crossing light at the time), not some crosswalk in the middle of the road with blinking lights and such. I don't know what kinds of systems you guys have in the States.

Hi Farkman,
Its safer to ride on the road than on the sidewalk. I'm familiar with Mississauga's glorified sidewalk bike paths, which have the same problems as the sidewalk (intersections!) so whenever I've ridden there I pick the road instead.

When bikes operate like any other vehicle, there is no need to use the crosswalks. When you want to turn left you get into the left turn lane. If you want to cross-cross to turn left because the traffic is too thick to merge safely, its best to get off and walk your bike through the crosswalk. It is my understanding that bikes are not allowed to bike in crosswalks (but that may be just in Toronto where adults also may not ride on the sidewalk)

That said, cars always do stupid things. Its best just to ignore these stupid things and go around them. Kicking cars will just kick their temper up a notch, and most stupid things drivers do is because they are impatient from being stuck in traffic :)
Tanya

to merge safely, its best to get off and walk your bike through the crosswalk. It is my understanding that bikes are not allowed to bike in crosswalks (but that may be just in Toronto where adults also may not ride on the sidewalk)

Just to follow up on my own post, the Ontario Highway Traffic Act forbids bikes from riding in the crosswalk except at signalized intersections. Which would mean technically (though nobody does) you would need to get off and walk your bike at all of the intersections with the sidewalk-bike-path and the road.

Section 144(29)
Riding in crosswalks prohibited

(29) No person shall ride a bicycle across a roadway within or along a crosswalk at an intersection or at a location other than an intersection which location is controlled by a traffic control signal system. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (29).

After reading farkman's subsequent posts, I believe we have these intersections as well. The intersecting cagers get better view of (car) traffic if they push their car all the way over the part of crossing where I am supposed to be riding. So that is what they frequently do, unless there's a constant flow of cyclists. In that case they seem to understand better that bike traffic is traffic as well.

I seldom go round the front of such cager. They may make a desperate last second attempt to get out of the way. They usually cannot reverse, because there's another car behind them. I sometimes ride full blast right to their window, stop, lean my elbows on handlebars and just stare them until they get their piece of scrap metal out of the way. Or ride full blast to their window, brake and go round the back, hitting car trunk audibly with my hand on the way.

--J

So you kicked in the guys light when he couldn’t do anything about it, but you ran away from him when he confronted you. Hmmmmmmm

Bigmark

What do you mean that there was nothing he could do about it. He could have stopped where he was supposed to, not ten feet ahead blocking the crossing lane. Sorry, I'm not big like you and don't want to get in a fight but I'm not going to let these people, who don't know how to stop behind a line, get away putting other people in danger.

You are every bit as bad as a driver who wants to teach a cyclist a lesson (to stay off the roads) by buzzing him. You deliberately hit his vehicle, when it fact it wasn't even moving. It sounds like you were looking for trouble-- and your charaterization of SUV drivers is rather telling. I find your actions to be immature.

Why do you believe he "clearly doesn't care for the safety of others?"

Is your implication that you ALWAYS follow the letter of the law... always come to a complete stop... always put your foot down... never blow a light... always signal your turns?

I encounter much more serious and aggressive drivers' actions... I can't imagine wasting any energy trying to teach a driver such a lesson.

What gives you the right?

Frankly, it sounds like you ride on the sidewalk anyway... and should probably stay there.

It sounds to me like this whole thing could be solved by just riding on the road like cars do. Look the guy made an honest mistake and I can see why. Your rules of the road up there are confusing the hell out of me that’s for sure. You know in the States we have a right on red rule so drivers will come up as far as they can to look and see if they can turn right. This means going over a crosswalk, which normally works fine when you look and see no one walking but then when some bike rider comes whizzing down the sidewalk all hell ensues.

imo you blew your top. You shouldn’t have hit his car. The guy made a mistake and it certainly wasn’t life threatening I'm sure your capable of making mistakes too.

You are every bit as bad as a driver who wants to teach a cyclist a lesson (to stay off the roads) by buzzing him. You deliberately hit his vehicle, when it fact it wasn't even moving. It sounds like you were looking for trouble-- and your charaterization of SUV drivers is rather telling. I find your actions to be immature.

Why do you believe he "clearly doesn't care for the safety of others?"

Is your implication that you ALWAYS follow the letter of the law... always come to a complete stop... always put your foot down... never blow a light... always signal your turns?

I encounter much more serious and aggressive drivers' actions... I can't imagine wasting any energy trying to teach a driver such a lesson.

What gives you the right?

Frankly, it sounds like you ride on the sidewalk anyway... and should probably stay there.
I was trying to think of the best way to answer him, but I think that you said it best. I encounter terrible drivers everyday, while in my car and on my bicyle. Should I go up to every car that pulls out in front of mine in traffic and kick their vehicle and "teach them a lesson". If I am shopping in the grocery store, and some thoughtless rude woman in haircurlers pushes her cart in front of mine at the check out line, do I walk up to her cart and kick it, to teach her a "lesson"?

Filtersweep

I don't care if cars are on the road, without cars we probably wouldn't even have roads, but this guy stopped so far ahead that he was maybe 3-4 feet from the the cars driving in the intersection. Is not obvious that he doesn't care about the safety of others. What if there was a lady with a baby crossing the street and this guy was stopped the same way. You'd probably be angry at the driver if this happened to someone you know.

Sure I don't always follow every single letter of the law. There are times when doing so might get me injured. I'm quite sure you don't follow the laws to the letter all the time either.

If you encounter situations worse than this and don't care that's your problem, but I care whether I or any other pedestrian/cyclist gets hit because someone fails to stop where they're supposed to.

The only reason why I was on the sidewalk to begin with is because 50 meters before the intersection the road splits into two lanes. The original lane becomes the left lane and a new right lane begins. With all the traffic there some people go to this new lane but have to pull way over to the curb to pass the others cars on the left. This leaves me about 6 inches between their car and the curb, not quite enough for me to pass. I have no choice but to stop or go onto the sidewalk. I chose to go onto the sidewalk and in doing so have committed a serious crime in your eyes.

By the way, the laws for bikes in my city state that a bicycle is allowed to cross at an intersection with lights and pedestrian signals. I ride on the road 98% of the time but I will make exceptions when I don't feel comfortable riding on the road and no one is on the sidewalk.

This, is the exact reason I have no respect for anyone who pulls over the crosswalk.. I probably wouldn't have been as nice as you were.. Then I'd proceed to laugh at him as he patheticly tried to chase a BIKER.. a BIKE can go down a 2ft wide alley.. A car can't :D

I have a 40 mile round trip commute by bike- and encounter all manner of drivers- great, good, bad, and ugly. Oddly, for every 500 drivers that are polite and courteous and patient- it takes just one who goes out of his or her way to buzz me, profanely suggest I ride elsewhere, etc... to make me forget how much cooperation there can be between cars and bikes. It is easy to focus on and obsess over a driver who we perceive to have "wronged" us in some way.

So what if they car didn't stop in the designated stop. There wasn't a woman with a baby crossing... and it is just possible the car would have backed up had there been. If you expect driving perfection among vehicles, you will be constantly disappointed.

Your reaction was disproportionate to the transgression. You acted like his actions were directed at your personally. It is paranoid, if not inappropriate to react in this manner. You lack to social skills to share the road with vehicles. If you pull a stunt like that with the "wrong person" you could easily be taught quite a lesson yourself.

There is a portion of my commute where I sometimes take an MUT that crosses a few streets with crosswalks- and I've experienced exactly what you describe. It is mildly annoying- but it is NOT DANGEROUS. The vehicle isn't moving. If you are so blocked that you'd need to ride into oncoming traffic YOU could always wait for the car to move. You control the level of "danger" (which is very slight, if you ask me).

Save your indignation for those who truly deserve it. If this is the worst aspect of your riding, you must live in a cycling paradise.

Well the original question was what would you do.

If it means if I had been in the original posters place, nothing. I would not ride in the crosswalk to start with and would not get worked up in any case.

If you mena if I had been there when this happened it rather depends. But if I was in the mood to do something I most likely would have chased down the original poster and had the guy with the SUV call the police and had the bike rider hauled off for vandalism.

I still can't envision exactly what the situation was, since I don't have any bike lanes of any kind on my commute (for which I am increasingly grateful, reading this forum), and I don't know your intersection. However, in a general situation where I would have to move around a driver sitting too far out in a lane, my response probably would have been to pull around (after checking that it was safe to do so), and wave my arm at him in a "shoo"ing manner and yell "you're too far out", as I rode by. No stopping, no contact. I think that would have gotten your point across better.

I think it's likely that his mind was elsewhere and he had no earthly idea why you pounded on his vehicle, so in his mind, you were just a bike thug committing random violence on his car. In any case, people don't often take advice kindly, even when it's offered clearly and kindly, much less in the form of retaliatory property damage. It sounds like no positive advocacy was accomplished here, and probably the cause was set back for this driver, even possibly for others witnessing it.

None of which takes away from the wrongness of the driver's action, but you asked us about yours. ;)

I think kicking the truck was too much. If he had actually hit you,or come real close,maybe. But I think you took it too far.

I see this alot around here,both on the bike and while walking. I usually ride/walk around the front,point down in a sweeping motion to indicate the crosswalk,and then raise my hand in a "whutinthehell?" gesture. Occationally,if I have a close call where I have to get on the brakes/jump back,I'll knock on the hood or trunk as I go by.

Kicking out the headlight then running away was cowardly bullsh*t. If the driver was ignorant, then you did nothing to educate him. If he simply made an error or space miscalculation, then the punishment you meted out was way over the line. I'd have chased you down too if I were him.

How would have you handled this situation?

Unless I was a cop, I would have carried on, maybe considered reporting it to someone, but NOT attempt property damage on the vehicle of the alleged perpetrator myself. Two wrongs do not make it right. And anyway, if a guy stopping in the crosswalk is the worst thing that happens to you all day, sheesh, hats off to you, bro.

I think you made a not-too-bad situation a lot worse than it needed to be. I'm not saying it's right, but people do this kind of thing all the time. It's not your job to play cop. It may be your duty to report it, maybe complain and get a patrol to monitor that intersection if it's a real problem or whatever, but getting all cocky and 'teaching someone a lesson' is going to backfire one of these days, maybe with consequences you can't handle (bullets travel a lot faster than you can ride on your bike).

I just said this in another similar thread, but it bears repeating: living well is the best revenge.

This, is the exact reason I have no respect for anyone who pulls over the crosswalk.. I probably wouldn't have been as nice as you were.. Then I'd proceed to laugh at him as he patheticly tried to chase a BIKER.. a BIKE can go down a 2ft wide alley.. A car can't :D

In Boise and its surrounding cities, 2 ft wide alleys are hard to find. An assaultive biker better have a great escape planned or really strong legs.

To the OP: While I understand your frustration, that guy is going to be looking for you every morning from now until he cools down, and when he finds you, he will likely be coming at you from behind.

There's a crime called vandalism.

I think the OP should be fined. Regardless of how stupid others are in what they are doing, it is a violation of the law to willfully damage others property or hurt other people. Mounted, walking, crawling makes no difference. Could the OP have "avoided" inflicting the damage? From the description, I'd say yes. The Florida Traffic law requires us to operate our vehicles in such a way as not to collided with other moving or stationary vehicles or people or objects.

I bet the fine for damaging someone elses propery is a lot higher than stopping astraddle a crosswalk. If I were the motorists and had the ability to do so, I'd sue your rims off. Oh sure, I'd pay a tiny little fine but what would it cost you? That'll teach 'em won't it!!

The question was what would I do? When I find myself having to cross a crosswalk with someone parked in the crosswalk, I ALWAYS approach the vehicle slowly, then turn and go behind the vehicle and then turn and get back on the crosswalk. I never confront the motorist and I never go in front of them. Are they violating some sort of traffic law. Probably. Well, when I finish the police academy and get hired by the city police department and get my own patrol car, then I'll be able to do something about the straddlers. But until then, I just accept the fact that there are stupid inconsiderate people on the roadway. I try not to let that reduce the enjoyment of riding my bike.
So there's my answer.

d.tipton

I know that what I did was overboard but I'm just so sick of people stopping so far ahead of the line for no reason. The guy was going straight, not turning right so what's the point of pulling out so much? It doesn't get you anywhere faster.

va cyclist

I didn't kick out his headlight. It wasn't even a kick, I just stuck my foot out and gave the headlight a tap with my shoe (a regular running shoe). It's highly unlikely it did any damage. It seems rather strange that some people on here are more concerned about a headlight than a person getting hit, by the cars on his right side who are turning right and cannot see me or anyone else for that fact.

What would I have done? I would, of course, have moved to the center or left side of the lane so that any right turning car could see me. It's a no brainer hardly worth getting upset about.

I know that what I did was overboard but I'm just so sick of people stopping so far ahead of the line for no reason. The guy was going straight, not turning right so what's the point of pulling out so much? It doesn't get you anywhere faster.

"What's the point of pulling out so much?" It accomplishes exactly the same thing as kicking a light!!
Nothing!!! You are sick of them doing things stupid so you "attempt" to correct their ways by doing something stupid. So do you think that motorist was thinking "wow ... I better do right from now on because that cyclist that just kicked my car has his stuff together".

Sure you get tired of the jerks that do this. So do I. The object is to reduce the number of jerks NOT increase it by becoming one.

I appologized if this is offensive to some but there is an old saying that goes "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This does NOT mean "an eye for an eye". So if you treat others with a kick, why on earth would expect to be treated differently.

d.tipton

Bigmark

What do you mean that there was nothing he could do about it. He could have stopped where he was supposed to, not ten feet ahead blocking the crossing lane. Sorry, I'm not big like you and don't want to get in a fight but I'm not going to let these people, who don't know how to stop behind a line, get away putting other people in danger.

You didn't say whether you saw him come slowly to a stop there, or whether he had to make a quick stop to avoid running a traffic light.
He was inconveniencing people in the crosswalk, but you decided to play police officer and set him right. Then you ran away like a scalded rabbit, after committing your vandalism. You really need to handle those issues you've got.

Well...in most areas (such as the area I live in) the crosswalks are very very rarely used. So pulling up to block them becomes pretty standard for most people, since they are very rarely actually blocking the path of someone who would be using it. I think that kicking a headlight and causing upwards of $400 in damages is much much too harsh for an act that wasn't even intentionally harmful. I could see if the guy had almost ran you over and you wanted to teach him a lesson. But to cause that type of damage just over a slight inconvenience that he caused you is just total bullshiyat. I think that the O.P. is very much so contributing towards the negative treatment that bicyclists recieve from motorists. I for one would have pulled forward and knocked the cyclist down and went driving off.

-Jason Keller