General Cycling Discussion - I'm sure you'll understand my resounding lack of sympathy

"Poll: Many Fear Gas Prices' Financial Hit"
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20050812/D8BUJDNG1.html

My favorite tidbits from the article:
"I filled up last Monday and it cost me $53," said Gary Spaulding of Fulton, N.Y., referring to his Ford Explorer. "One of the cars we're going to get rid of. We can't afford both of them."

"It cost $65 last week for a fill-up of our Expedition," said Carla Woyden, a mother of four from the Philadelphia area who works part-time.

"It has a rather large effect...It directly reduces their spendable income, because they are not able to conserve their use of gas very easily."

Hmmm...I bet I can think of a way to conserve my use of gas. In fact, now that I think about it, my car gets a fill-up about once a month, and only gets about half the mileage of my commuting vehicle of choice.

Funny thing is......we, in the USA, pay the cheapest gas prices compared to the rest of the world and have been doing so for decades but it costs more than anyone else in the world to fill up our gas tanks...... :beer:

Funny thing is......we, in the USA, pay the cheapest gas prices compared to the rest of the world and have been doing so for decades but it costs more than anyone else in the world to fill up our gas tanks.: --- Yeah, and it is going to get worse as the supply of petroleum peaks out. No matter how much the SUV'ers can afford, expensive gasoline will be followed by NO gasoline:
www.peakoil.com/sample/index.html
www.socsci.mcmaster.ca/polisci/gcpr/oilprod.cfm

There may be some benefits.. The secretary at my client's plant commented that since her truck now drinks $50+ more than once per week, she's going to have to quit smoking to afford her gas bill :D

I've never really understood why so many people in the US and Canada feel the need for these giant petrol guzzlers- as a foreigner, I find it completely baffling!

Well it s going to be a long time before there is no gasoline.

Its just going to be expensive from here on in.
I expect we will see the end of the behometh SUV but it will take a few years as people go through the car buying cycle.

I was a kid during the last "oil crisis" in the seventies, I can remember suddenly the much derided Japanese "rice-burners" became cool and the Volkswagen diesel rabbit
became almost impossible to buy.

I've never really understood why so many people in the US and Canada feel the need for these giant petrol guzzlers- as a foreigner, I find it completely baffling!

I'm a native-born US citizen and I don't get it either, so don't feel like you're all alone there.

Before everyone starts talking about that everyone should commute on bikes, I just want to remind everyone that it is not always possible. For example most people who work in Bay Area commute to work on a car because they can't afford to actually live within walking/bike distance from their place of work. Public transpartation isn't all that cheap eather. During a semester I take Bart to school, it costs me about 100 bucks a month.
That said I have no sympathy for people who whine about gas prices and then get in to their giant SUV that gets about 15 miles a gallon. Sell that over priced shopping cart and get a car that gets 30+. My next car is going to be a hybrid.

I know lots of people with huge vehicles, and so far, none have complained about the price of gas within my hearing range. Maybe they know better. ;)

I was a kid during the last "oil crisis" in the seventies, I can remember suddenly the much derided Japanese "rice-burners" became cool and the Volkswagen diesel rabbit
became almost impossible to buy.
I was there, too. Remember the "odd-even" license plate days? They did that in NY for awhile.
I was originally planning on commuting 2 or 3 days a week, but it's looking like it's gonna be 4 or 5 now. Hope I can handle 120 miles a week on the bike
:D

My commute takes 90 minutes by car/subway and there are no bathing facilities at my office. Commuting by bike would be impractical. Good thing I bought that old Honda for $750. Cheap gas and insurance.

The hypocrisy of these complaints comes from the fact that, despite a 26% increase in prices from this month last year, the demand is 1.4% higher. (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/11/business/11oil.html)

Fortunately, they've found something to blame for it.


Only about a third in the poll said they think President Bush is handling the nation's energy problems effectively, while almost six in 10 disagree. When asked whom they blame most for the rise in gas prices, people were most inclined to blame the oil companies, followed closely by politicians and countries that produce oil.

(Only 7 percent (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-Gas-Prices-Poll-Method.html) said people who drive gas-guzzling vehicles, 9% said environmentalists)

Meanwhile, viable fusion power is still "20 years" away, just like it was 2 decades ago, and France and Japan are the only real investors in the technology.

I blame people driving gas guzzling monstrocities for showing Oil companies that hey are willing to pay the price.
I blame Oil companies for raising prices just because they can, and know that American's will pay the price to drive their gas guzzling monstrocities.
I blame the President for a bad foreign policy and for handling the whole cituation very poorly.
That about covers everyone.

$1.08/litre in montreal.

In a somewhat related note, has anyone seen the ad for an Expedition bragging about its increased FUEL EFFICIANcY? I was laughing out loud when I first saw it, then read the fine print at the bottem of the page: 14 MPG city and 18 hwy. I thought I was reading the Onion and it was a joke, but no they were serious. After awhile I quit laughing, and became depressed.

Before everyone starts talking about that everyone should commute on bikes, I just want to remind everyone that it is not always possible. For example most people who work in Bay Area commute to work on a car because they can't afford to actually live within walking/bike distance from their place of work.


This is a major problem with California because the Bay area ran out of room since they placed hight restrictions on buildings resulting in over construction of single family homes for too few people. But the jobs did not leave the Bay area so your stuck having to commute by car.

The real issue in the article was the fact that most of those who responded said they were going to spend less on other areas of their life like dining and travel. It's a sad state of affairs when Americans are so attached to their vehicles that an increase in gasoline prices puts them on the verge of bankruptcy!

Well get ready for it to get worse dudes, we are going to have $100/barrel crude beofre it starts to come back down again. There are a bunch of contributing factors including hedge fund investment strategies, exploration, quality of drilled product, refining capacity etc. contributing to this and they all seem to be pointing to a steady increase in crude prices for the foreseeable future. Actually believe it or not, its not really dumbass Bush's (or any other politician's really) fault, its factors way beyond the scope of their control..

That said I have no sympathy for people who whine about gas prices and then get in to their giant SUV that gets about 15 miles a gallon.

I think you are overestimating the gas mileage of the large SUVs. Try 10 to 12 mpg.

In a somewhat related note, has anyone seen the ad for an Expedition bragging about its increased FUEL EFFICIANcY? I was laughing out loud when I first saw it, then read the fine print at the bottem of the page: 14 MPG city and 18 hwy. I thought I was reading the Onion and it was a joke, but no they were serious. After awhile I quit laughing, and became depressed.

What makes it worse is that mpg figure is with the a/c off. In Texas, people drive with their a/c on most of the year.

No way, Scroz! It's perfectly plausible that everything that's wrong with this world can be attributed to the actions of one man! He is the embodiment of all that is wrong and in a few years we'll just have to blame the next guy. It's so much easier than everybody examining what they can do to alleviate the problem by their own action.

I have an uncle who is an independent engineering and financial consultant to refineries (he takes his engineering expertise and management expertise and divises a way to maximize profit). We asked him about prices. The main reason for the prices is that we don't have enough refining capacity to keep up with demand. The refineries out there are old and things are breaking down regularly. I asked him if any companies have plans to build new refineries. His answer was there are no plans in the foreseeable future. The refineries are enjoying margins they haven't seen in ages and don't plan on letting them go anytime soon.

Arcane regulations make it difficult and time consuming to build more refineries.
I'm not saying the regulations are bad, most of them were put there for environmental reasons. It just makes it part of the trade-off.

The best way to ensure conservation and alternative energy sources is high prices for conventional oil. As soon as those high prices occur, the same people that are always yabbering about conservation and alternative energy sources start whining about high prices.

Demand is not inelastic, it will respond to price. The biggest worry is that high oil prices will lead to a recession as has happened before.

My dad works in the energy industry, and warned me about this over 10 years ago, back when gas was cheap and SUVs were just taking off. For the next decade, I always bragged about the gas mileage and reliability of my Honda Civic whilst everyone I knew laughed and talked about their horsepower and towing capacity. (How many times a year do you tow a house, anyway?)
Now, same conversation, and all my friends nod appreciatively. Funny how that works out. The part that gets me is I've been robbed of almost all of my "I told you so's" since all but one of my buddies can even recollect that I've been speaking about this for so long. (Selective memory, I suppose...they want to pretend it's been a big shock, these gas prices. Oh well.)

Arcane regulations make it difficult and time consuming to build more refineries.
I'm not saying the regulations are bad, most of them were put there for environmental reasons. It just makes it part of the trade-off.

The best way to ensure conservation and alternative energy sources is high prices for conventional oil. As soon as those high prices occur, the same people that are always yabbering about conservation and alternative energy sources start whining about high prices.

Demand is not inelastic, it will respond to price. The biggest worry is that high oil prices will lead to a recession as has happened before.

The only "arcane" thing in this argument (which smacks disturbingly of Libertarianism, that most vile form of political animal) is the suggestion of a repeal of regulation. There is no more arcane concept in the capitalist world, and there is nothing that corporations would like more. Since the advent of the regulatory state, capitalists and corporations have long sought it's repeal. Why did the regulatory state come about? Maybe because there was ample cause (pause to read history book here) for the citizens of a democracy to exercise the power they had (and in theory still have) over a corporation. But, there is a reason that corporations LOVE fascist governments. Look around the world, and see how much money is being made for Western corporations with friendly fascists to enforce for them in a society without a social contract or any "arcane" regulation.
"The Market" is not this benevolent, omnipotent entity that we should bow humbly before and simply expect that it's machinations will bring about the justice and order that we has human beings should be striving for. Quite the contrary, "the market", in any unregulated form, has consistently throughout human history done quite the opposite. Our economic order is Feudalism, all over again. There is nothing new about that, just as there is nothing "arcane" about the need for a regulatory state. In fact, the very idea that citizens, with one vote apiece, can regulate the powerful...now that's still the newest idea on this planet! That's also why the concept pushed for so long by the wealthy of citizens as "consumers first" is so very dangerous.

I'm not saying the regulations are bad, most of them were put there for environmental reasons. It just makes it part of the trade-off.

Sorry, skookum...perhaps I responded a bit more vehemently to your post than was warranted. This particular line got lost a bit in my ire about "all hail the market." (Obviously a subject which makes me very angry.)

This is why I'm buying me a Scooter! w00t! 3 Gallon tank, go all around town and not need to fill up :)

I didn't suggest anything about repealing regulations. Its more the law of unintended consequences. The intent of the regulations was to protect the environment. One unintended result was to make it time consuming expensive and difficult to build new refineries.

That may be one of the trade-offs that you have to accept. If you don't think regulations are arcane, you should try and make sense of the regulations governing gasoline formulation. It can only be described as byzantine in its complexity.

You need a balance between regulations and the market that is for sure. I don't think it hurts to step back and look at the balance, see if it makes sense.

The market provides us with a tremendous choice of high tech bicycles and computers and the internet where we can debate these things. It can't be all bad.

My intent was not to say we need to get rid of regulation, I agree that we need them. Lets just recognize that there may be hidden costs in regulation that don't become apparent right away. You may look at those regulations and decide they are worth keeping , anyway, I don't know.

Arcane regulations make it difficult and time consuming to build more refineries.
I'm not saying the regulations are bad, most of them were put there for environmental reasons. It just makes it part of the trade-off.

Meanwhile, the vehemently ignorant crowd is vehemently opposing the construction of natural gas terminals and storage, which can make a strong dent on the use of petroleum for heating, reducing the demand and freeing up more of the appropriately weighted oils for refining into diesal. The fear of explosion is ridiculously (and vehemently) overrated, especially with the designs all of the proposed terminals would use.


The best way to ensure conservation and alternative energy sources is high prices for conventional oil. As soon as those high prices occur, the same people that are always yabbering about conservation and alternative energy sources start whining about high prices.

Read my previous post. The rising prices actually have not prevented an increase in demand.

the price of gas is too cheap as long as there are 18 year old idiots driving aimlessly around with their 1000 watt stereos blasting.

The 18 year idiots who can drive around aimlessly with 1000 watt stereos aren't going to stop until their parents stop giving them money.

those hybrid cars, they get decent gas milage but strap a a bike rack and a bike to it and it loses about 15mpg. listening to car talk on npr awhile back i heard a caller talking about that. they rely pretty much on aerodynamics for thier good milage.

Meanwhile, the vehemently ignorant crowd is vehemently opposing the construction of natural gas terminals and storage, which can make a strong dent on the use of petroleum for heating, reducing the demand and freeing up more of the appropriately weighted oils for refining into diesal. The fear of explosion is ridiculously (and vehemently) overrated, especially with the designs all of the proposed terminals would use.



Read my previous post. The rising prices actually have not prevented an increase in demand.

You say vehemently alot. I vehemently object to the excessive use of the word vehement. Hee hee.

in brazil cars used to or still do run off of alchohol... 30cents a gallon and it is a renewable resource,, look it up if you dont beleive me,,, google it,, i think wisconsin supports it or something like that,,, unfortunately the monster oil companies kill the idea..

madman

I heard my sister in law complaining about that too, with the giant new Armada she bought to drive around one child. That and complaining it's too big to park. Never once has she gotten a lick of sympathy from me.

"The rising prices actually have not prevented an increase in demand. "

They will. Give it time

Ethanol requires more energy in its production than you get from the finished product.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/27/MNG1VDF6EM1.DTL

those hybrid cars, they get decent gas milage but strap a a bike rack and a bike to it and it loses about 15mpg. listening to car talk on npr awhile back i heard a caller talking about that. they rely pretty much on aerodynamics for thier good milage.
You strap a bike to any car and it looses mpg. Also it depends where you put a bike. The roof racks have more effect then trunk racks. Besides even with a bike their mpg is better then a SUV without a bike.

Higher gas prices *will* reduce the number of SUV's and other gas guzzlers in a few short years. But high gas prices really hurt the economy overall, because just about everything we use is shipped by truck (even our bikes :)).

You say vehemently alot. I vehemently object to the excessive use of the word vehement. Hee hee.

Yeah, when people go to great length to pretend to know more than they do for the sake of feeling like they're accomplishing something (like overblowing the precautions necessary in transporting natural gas), I figure it's the least I can do to exert at least a fraction of their effort in ridiculing their vehement and empty outrage.

Hmmm...better try to get back on topic. I found a 76 station that charges 10 cents less per gallon for paying in cash...and their price was already better than most of the stations around.

Local Orlando TV station had a "special" report on the gas prices and provided a few pointers on how to reduce your gas consumption. (1) no jack rabbit starts (dejavu 1970's), (2) use cruise control, (3) ensure tires are inflated properly. I thought the report was rediculous since they failed to report the obvious ... stop using vehicles that consume gasoline and use vehicles that don't use gasoline. They totally missed the boat on that one ... Makes you kinda wish a cyclist had ridden by and rang their bell while the reporter was doing his "indepth coverage" of this issue.

d.tipton

Last year I was in a car wreck and went a month or so without a car -- that was, in fact, when I bought my first MTB. And here I am!

Now if I could just find better ways of getting around Austin! We're pretty good about bike lanes in some areas, but I shudder to find ways of crossing 183 or Mopac (except for Shoal Creek, that crossbridge is NICE).