Living Car Free - Got some questions for those of you who are happy about high oil prices

1. Do you get all your food from a garden and from the livestock on your farm or acreage? Or do you buy your food from the grocery store?

If the oil prices go up, that will affect the farmers who have to pay out fuel to do their harvesting and other work, and it will affect the people who deliver the food to your grocery store, as well as many other industries in between. Food prices will go up.

2. Are you planning to purchase any large items in the next year? If so, how are you planning to get that item home? A delivery service maybe? Or a taxi?

If the oil prices go up, those delivery services and taxis will start charging more.

3. Are you planning a trip somewhere? Got any desire to go to Europe to cycle? How about to a cycling event in the next State or Province? How are you planning to get there? Rent a car? Fly?

If the oil prices go up, you'll have to pay for it when you rent a car, and already the airlines are raising their rates.

Even if you don't own a car, and even if you regularly walk or ride your bicycle everywhere, rising oil prices will still affect you in some way or another. Has your boss given you a raise to compensate?

Those are some good points Machka, but in my case you're preaching to the choir. The oil companies and the politicians will not be harmed by high costs--they will benefit with correspondingly higher profits. The people will be the ones who are harmed, including those of us who are carfree.

Even if you don't own a car, and even if you regularly walk or ride your bicycle everywhere, rising oil prices will still affect you in some way or another. Has your boss given you a raise to compensate?

I am more than happy to make some sacrifices in exchange for a less car-dependent society. Despite a record number of smog days in Ottawa this year, the asses who insist on commuting by car can't be convinced to leave the filthy things at home. What people won't do out of basic decency, responsibility, or societal need they may finally do out of self-interest when gas prices get high enough.

Ultimately, the price of oil NEEDS to go up. We need to stop relying on it so much. If that means we have to pay a little more for some things, then so be it. We never used to be able to afford everything we do now. I think it's more important to have a planet that still works......

1. Do you get all your food from a garden and from the livestock on your farm or acreage? Or do you buy your food from the grocery store?

If the oil prices go up, that will affect the farmers who have to pay out fuel to do their harvesting and other work, and it will affect the people who deliver the food to your grocery store, as well as many other industries in between. Food prices will go up.

2. Are you planning to purchase any large items in the next year? If so, how are you planning to get that item home? A delivery service maybe? Or a taxi?

If the oil prices go up, those delivery services and taxis will start charging more.

3. Are you planning a trip somewhere? Got any desire to go to Europe to cycle? How about to a cycling event in the next State or Province? How are you planning to get there? Rent a car? Fly?

If the oil prices go up, you'll have to pay for it when you rent a car, and already the airlines are raising their rates.

Even if you don't own a car, and even if you regularly walk or ride your bicycle everywhere, rising oil prices will still affect you in some way or another. Has your boss given you a raise to compensate?

None of those things will happen to the extent that the media like to make out. Ultimately, supply and demand play a far bigger role in setting the prices of certain items than the cost of transporting them. Already I'm saving $1.20 on every loaf of bread I buy simply by choosing the locally produced bread, as opposed to the goods that are shipped in from afar. In fact, I'd say there's a fair possibility that the long term effect could be cheaper prices of many goods, as a large section of the consumer base makes sacrifices to they can pay for their precious fuel. Ultimately, the demand for everything that isn't fuel will fall in line with the spending of those people.

Interestingly, right at the moment, airfares in this country are cheaper than they've ever been. I remeber being slugged $274 to fly to Sydney back in 1999. Only recently I saw airfares to Christchurch for $150 (I'm not making this up).

In anycase, the rise in fuel prices should surprise nobody. It was inevitable once developing nations started consuming the product to a larger extent. This is just capitalist economics doing what it has done ever since the system was implemented. Whining about high fuel prices isn't going to change anything. Even if the government does step in and further subsidise it, they'll have to make a short-cut somewhere else to pay for it, and even then it's only a short term solution.

To put it simply, it's just something we're all going to have to learn to live with, and those of us who are less dependent are in the best position to do just that. It's worth noting that international trips and purchases of large appliances are generally infrequent purchases, and consequently their overall effect on an annual budget is minimal.

I still say, let the suckers pay for it.

Hmmm... in Europe, fuel prices are already two to four times as expensive as in the US- and somehow food is often cheaper (and better)... public transportation and airfare are competitive, etc... you can't "blame" it all on oil prices.

Those are some good points Machka, but in my case you're preaching to the choir. The oil companies and the politicians will not be harmed by high costs--they will benefit with correspondingly higher profits. The people will be the ones who are harmed, including those of us who are carfree.

I am doing some business with a fellow from east TX now. He is a wealthy car collector so hangs with other wealthy Texans. The stories he's telling of the new vast wealth being generated and flowing into the pockets of he and his buddies is startling.

In our dealings he has a negative interest in telling me how wealthy he's getting (and his friends in the oil business) so I believe him. This is, IMO, another major story not being bothered to be told by the lamestream press. We are being fleeced and there is nothing we can do about it. Yes, I'm about to ride my bicycle to work, but I need to buy food transported here, etc.

If I repeated the stories he told me, I'd make the entire forum nauseous. It did so me and my partner.

None of those things will happen to the extent that the media like to make out. Ultimately, supply and demand play a far bigger role in setting the prices of certain items than the cost of transporting them. Already I'm saving $1.20 on every loaf of bread I buy simply by choosing the locally produced bread, as opposed to the goods that are shipped in from afar. In fact, I'd say there's a fair possibility that the long term effect could be cheaper prices of many goods, as a large section of the consumer base makes sacrifices to they can pay for their precious fuel. Ultimately, the demand for everything that isn't fuel will fall in line with the spending of those people.

Interestingly, right at the moment, airfares in this country are cheaper than they've ever been. I remeber being slugged $274 to fly to Sydney back in 1999. Only recently I saw airfares to Christchurch for $150 (I'm not making this up).

In anycase, the rise in fuel prices should surprise nobody. It was inevitable once developing nations started consuming the product to a larger extent. This is just capitalist economics doing what it has done ever since the system was implemented. Whining about high fuel prices isn't going to change anything. Even if the government does step in and further subsidise it, they'll have to make a short-cut somewhere else to pay for it, and even then it's only a short term solution.

To put it simply, it's just something we're all going to have to learn to live with, and those of us who are less dependent are in the best position to do just that. It's worth noting that international trips and purchases of large appliances are generally infrequent purchases, and consequently their overall effect on an annual budget is minimal.

I still say, let the suckers pay for it.


Your hypothesis isn't correct. Supply and demand aren't strong determiners when it comes to oil prices because the demand is essentially inelastic. I refer you to an economist for a reference. I'm not but my info from from them.

Oil, in the US, is almost like air or water. We need it to survive.

1. no, grocery store
2. no
3. no
4. I am the boss


If I go somewhere its by bike, I dont do vacations.

Oil, in the US, is almost like air or water. We need it to survive.

Just now, yes. Soon? No. Air and water recycle. Oil doesn't. Prices or no prices, soon enough, it'll run out.

Paying more for goods is fine by me. The added cost due to higher prices will still be much less then filling up a car every week. So, come on, rise prices, rise! We have to make some sacrifices to improve our environment.

If the oil prices go up, that will affect the farmers who have to pay out fuel to do their harvesting and other work

And that's just the tip of the iceberg lettuce. Modern industrial agriculture operations use quite a bit of oil in the form of fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides and other petroleum-based products in addition to the fuel needed to power vehicles or harvesting machinery.

Oil, in the US, is almost like air or water. We need it to survive.
Just like Heroin.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg lettuce. Modern industrial agriculture operations use quite a bit of oil in the form of fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides and other petroleum-based products in addition to the fuel needed to power vehicles or harvesting machinery.

This is EXACTLY why, in order to help conserve oil, we should endevor to buy LOCALLY grown and produced food and "grow your own" as much as possible. Stop feeding the intensive-farming, soil and ground water polluting agri-business!

like said above, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. yeah, it sucks that some people are really feeling the pinch more than others (guys who deliver goods, taxi drivers, etc.) but hadn't we all expected this decades ago? i did.

1. Do you get all your food from a garden and from the livestock on your farm or acreage? Or do you buy your food from the grocery store?

If the oil prices go up, that will affect the farmers who have to pay out fuel to do their harvesting and other work, and it will affect the people who deliver the food to your grocery store, as well as many other industries in between. Food prices will go up.

2. Are you planning to purchase any large items in the next year? If so, how are you planning to get that item home? A delivery service maybe? Or a taxi?

If the oil prices go up, those delivery services and taxis will start charging more.

3. Are you planning a trip somewhere? Got any desire to go to Europe to cycle? How about to a cycling event in the next State or Province? How are you planning to get there? Rent a car? Fly?

If the oil prices go up, you'll have to pay for it when you rent a car, and already the airlines are raising their rates.

Even if you don't own a car, and even if you regularly walk or ride your bicycle everywhere, rising oil prices will still affect you in some way or another. Has your boss given you a raise to compensate?

1. Grocery store --- Here's the secret to grocery shopping. Buy store brands and use coupons. I used to work in a supermarket and seen people cut $20 to 35 dollars a week easily by doing the above. Using these two methods, any increase in gas will not effect you one bit.

2. It's called mail order --- My furniture were all delivered. Any heavy items will also get the same treatment.

3. Amtrak ----- It's subsidized by the government about 1 billion dollars. I consider it the greatest bargain in transportation second to none. In fact, I'm thinking of taking the 45 day pass and exploring the east coast.

4. Boss has given me a raise but not based on the price of oil. Raise was more of a cost of living increase so I'm looking elsewhere.

The thing is, people are not cutting back on oil consumption. They are cutting back on other expenditures so they can continue to buy petroleum products. Therefore, other segments of the economy will suffer long before big oil or the local filling station does.

Is the industry you work in immune from the effects of people spending less on all other goods and services so that they can still afford the gas they need? I doubt it. It is likely that unemployment will rise in many industries, including yours.

Again, big villains will profit while innocents suffer.

Call me a Socialist—go ahead, I know you want to—but I'm all about making personal "accommodations" for the greater good. If the price of oil compels people to get out of the single-occupant commuter mindset, that's reward enough for me. So we all pay a bit more for delivered goods. Big woop. Better to have cleaner air, healthier citizens, less dependence on machine and oil. It's time to shatter the dangerous illusion of consequence-free entitlement that plagues the western world. (Holy cow, I'm speechifying!)

The thing is, people are not cutting back on oil consumption. They are cutting back on other expenditures so they can continue to buy petroleum products. Therefore, other segments of the economy will suffer long before big oil or the local filling station does.


Agreed. This recent hike in oil prices will send us into another recession so get ready. As consumers stop shopping, our economy goes along with it and this time real estate or the dot coms will not come to the rescue!

I agree with the idea inherent in most of these posts: Higher gas prices will encourage greater efficiency.

- Buy locally produced food - it's usually less expensive and fresher.

Agreed. This recent hike in oil prices will send us into another recession so get ready. As consumers stop shopping, our economy goes along with it and this time real estate or the dot coms will not come to the rescue!

Well, so it goes. Our administration had a golden opportunity after 9/11 to send a clear message to the American public that our dependence on foreign oil carried huge risks - both security and economic. Currently 60% of our oil is imported, headed toward 75% by 2020. At that time the prudent thing to do would have been to call for conservation and begin to phase in (slowly) increased CAFE standards for cars and SUV's, and perhaps even a carbon tax on oil. Similar to what Carter did when OPEC raised prices in the late 70's. Revenues could have been used to invest in new technolgies and better transportation alternatives.

Instead, Bush told the public to go shopping and Congress gave a $50,000 tax break for buying vehicles with a GVWR of 8600lbs or more, like Hummers and 1 ton trucks, the most gas guzzling vehicles of all. Brilliant strategy. And even now, with obvious shortages looming due to global demand, the charade continues. In the most recent House session to finalize the Energy Bill, our representatives, under pressure from the White House, refused to support a Senate bill that would have required minimal reductions in oil usage by 2015. With thinking like that, no wonder we are in the mess we are in.

does anyone else find it kinda funny how gm and these other american car makers started selling these (soon to be) low milage cars just before the cost of gas skyrocketed?

do they own oil stocks?

mtnroads... Good points, but in some ways it's difficult to think the politicians are entirely to blame. In his book, "When You Ride Alone, You Ride With Bin Ladden", Bill Maher compares the current situation with that during WWII. During WWII, the government actively worked to encourage citizens to conserve oil - things like not driving alone. In present times, U.S. citizens have become so spoiled and lazy, for a politician to suggest sacrifice would be political suicide in most areas. In a democratic republic, people really do get the government they deserve.

Call me a Socialist—go ahead, I know you want to—but I'm all about making personal "accommodations" for the greater good. If the price of oil compels people to get out of the single-occupant commuter mindset, that's reward enough for me. So we all pay a bit more for delivered goods. Big woop. Better to have cleaner air, healthier citizens, less dependence on machine and oil. It's time to shatter the dangerous illusion of consequence-free entitlement that plagues the western world. (Holy cow, I'm speechifying!)And, as in most speeches, you've over-simplified the issue. If the cost of oil keeps rising and we have to "pay a bit more" for the stuff we buy, one (or both) of two things will happen. The economic possibilities are:

We have the same amount of money but it doesn't buy as much stuff, because stuff is more expensive. So we buy a bit less. Then the people who make the stuff produce a bit less stuff. They lay off a lot of their workers. Then eveybody has even less money to buy even more expensive stuff. There is a RECESSION.
We have to pay more for stuff so we ask our employers for more money. They agree, and we keep buying stuff even though it costs more. Then stuff gets even more expensive so we ask for even bigger raises. We go into a period of runaway INFLATION.
But you forgot to tell us those inconvenient facts in your speech! Maybe you need to review that college Econ text that's all dusty in your attic. This is pretty basic information.

But the most important thing for a socialist to remember is that big companies and rich people will suffer some in either a recession or inflation, but it will be poor people and even middle class people who won't be able to feed their kids at the end of the month.

You are right Alan, it is not just the politicians, the people have a lot to do with it. And yes, Carter committed political suicide by being honest with the people and asking for conservation. In this country we tend to weigh our individual freedoms ahead of collective benefits for society, and as you point out, we have gotten the government we asked for.

And, as in most speeches, you've over-simplified the issue. If the cost of oil keeps rising and we have to "pay a bit more" for the stuff we buy, one (or both) of two things will happen. The economic possibilities are:

We have the same amount of money but it doesn't buy as much stuff, because stuff is more expensive. So we buy a bit less. Then the people who make the stuff produce a bit less stuff. They lay off a lot of their workers. Then eveybody has even less money to buy even more expensive stuff. There is a RECESSION.
We have to pay more for stuff so we ask our employers for more money. They agree, and we keep buying stuff even though it costs more. Then stuff gets even more expensive so we ask for even bigger raises. We go into a period of runaway INFLATION.
But you forgot to tell us those inconvenient facts in your speech! Maybe you need to review that college Econ text that's all dusty in your attic. This is pretty basic information.

But the most important thing for a socialist to remember is that big companies and rich people will suffer some in either a recession or inflation, but it will be poor people and even middle class people who won't be able to feed their kids at the end of the month.

You also are oversimplifying to some degree. Because there are global factors, the economy is far more complex than you or your college textbook imply, and any of us can sort out fully. Even Greenspan is puzzled. We may well suffer a recession once China stops buying our treasury notes and holding down long-term interest rates which haven't risen in spite of 7 successive increases on the part of the Fed. Once they rise, the housing boom is going to come grinding to a halt and a lot of people are going to find themselves upside down on their interest-only mortgages, and possibly out of work, due to stagnating business investment. However, oil prices are just a small part of the equation.

Exactly. The 'trickle-down' theory is a naive, incomplete view of the economy. It assumes that the principle catalyst for the economy is consumer spending, when in fact, consumer spending is only one of numerous factors related to economic health. Investment is also very important, as is maintaining a limited debt, or none whatsoever (in the case of both individuals and governments).

I grossly oversimplified, but I thought this discussion was about the impact rising oil prices might have on the economy, so perhaps we should focus there.

(By the way, I do not agree with mtnrds that "oil prices are just a small part of the equation." I think they are a significant part, especially since they have a major impact on business spending and investment, as well as consumer spending. Furthermore, don't oil prices have a major impact on consumer and business confidence in the economy? And don't modern economists believe that confidence is a crucial factor?)

What I'm thinking about today is that rapidly escalating oil prices are possibly the most painful way to bring about the social and economic changes that most people on this forum have long been hoping for. And, like I said before, I think most of this pain will be borne by those who are already having a rough time.

You guys obviously know more about current economic theory than I do. What are your thoughts on the possibility of finding less painful ways to usher in an economy and society that are much less oil dependent? I have no idea what this might entail, but I bet some of you do.

One thing i have found interesting in all of the gloating over the soon to occur suffering of drivers is the fact that the near-universal depenence on technology hasn't come up. many aspects of day to day life are controlled by, or at the least catalyzed by, computers. many things involved in the production of computer parts plastic. plastic comes mainly from petroleum. as oil prices continue to rise, given that realists admit that short of triple figures/gallon most american will continue to drive, a greater portion of the petrol that is raised will be pumped into gas tanks and not into other directions, meaning that we can look forward to a time in the not too far furture where not only will the currently occuring drop in tech costs reverse itself, but it will skyrocket, making everything more expensive.

(that's it, i'm going to buy me a compound in montana somewhere and learn how to kill my own food)

Maybe you need to review that college Econ text that's all dusty in your attic.
Was that a shot? That was a shot, wasn't it? Hmmph.

As it happens, I didn't take Economics after I failed it in grade eleven (problem there had more to do with reefers than Adam Smith). I don't have any degrees on foreign policy or anything like that. Here's what I'm thinking, though. Our gluttonous and ever-increasing use of oil kicks the CARP out of the planet, and in the long run this is very very bad. People are too lazy and too flipping "entitled" to make any sacrifice at all, no matter how small. They're still going to drive the biggest vehicle they can afford, and still demand to park right in front of every place they stop. If expensive gasoline is what it takes to get those wastrels into a bit of a mind shift, I'll do my part and pay an extra 10% for my lettuce. In Europe, they pay four times as much for gas, and if their economies have tanked, I haven't heard about it.

One thing i have found interesting in all of the gloating over the soon to occur suffering of drivers is the fact that the near-universal depenence on technology hasn't come up. many aspects of day to day life are controlled by, or at the least catalyzed by, computers. many things involved in the production of computer parts plastic. plastic comes mainly from petroleum. as oil prices continue to rise, given that realists admit that short of triple figures/gallon most american will continue to drive, a greater portion of the petrol that is raised will be pumped into gas tanks and not into other directions, meaning that we can look forward to a time in the not too far furture where not only will the currently occuring drop in tech costs reverse itself, but it will skyrocket, making everything more expensive.

(that's it, i'm going to buy me a compound in montana somewhere and learn how to kill my own food)

Last I read, about 55% of oil used in the U.S. went to gas for private vehicles, and about 30% is used to generate energy (heat, electricity, etc.). The amount of petroleum used for technological devices (compter, etc.) is only a small % of the oil used, so I doubt there will be significant cost increases, at least due to oil. Most of the cost for electronics goes to the labor (and machines) used to produce the parts and assemble them.

That said, tech based economies do use tremendous amounts of energy. Here in Seattle, the per capita energy consumption is quite high, partly because we're a largely tech-based economy.

Was that a shot? That was a shot, wasn't it? Hmmph.

As it happens, I didn't take Economics after I failed it in grade eleven (problem there had more to do with reefers than Adam Smith). I don't have any degrees on foreign policy or anything like that. Here's what I'm thinking, though. Our gluttonous and ever-increasing use of oil kicks the CARP out of the planet, and in the long run this is very very bad. People are too lazy and too flipping "entitled" to make any sacrifice at all, no matter how small. They're still going to drive the biggest vehicle they can afford, and still demand to park right in front of every place they stop. If expensive gasoline is what it takes to get those wastrels into a bit of a mind shift, I'll do my part and pay an extra 10% for my lettuce. In Europe, they pay four times as much for gas, and if their economies have tanked, I haven't heard about it.
Yeah, it was a shot. But I do think you're pretty smart, but we all need to spend a little more time thinking this thing through so our world and our society don't end up in the salvage yard like my '83 Tercel.

Sometimes, as a carfree person, I think I'm already living a lifestyle that would be good for most other people to take up in the near future. However, how can they be introduced to this lifestyle in a relatively painless way? It seems that just jacking up the price of oil might accomplish the objective, but only in a destructive and distressing way. I hope we can all put our heads together (not just us--everybody) and come up with an easier way to do it.

By the way, not only does the US have the cheapest fuel in the world, we also have the cheapest food. Isn't it funny how those two facts work together to make us fat and lazy? And isn't it cool how bikes work to counteract both those facts?

Roody... I agree it would be better to gradually shift our society towards alt means of transit, but it just seems difficult poltically. It would mean less road construction and more mass transit - most politicians would be terrified to move in this direction for fear of being voted out.

It just seems that most U.S. citizens have become so lazy, spoiled, and out of touch with the true consequences of their actions that the only way most are willing to change their lifestyle is if it becomes unaffordable.

I'm pretty much in favor of anything that speeds up the end of the human race.

I won't contribute to it, but I'm happy when I see it. Humans are a blight, and there'll be a beautiful world left when we're gone, as long as it happens soon (likely).

I grossly oversimplified, but I thought this discussion was about the impact rising oil prices might have on the economy, so perhaps we should focus there.

(By the way, I do not agree with mtnrds that "oil prices are just a small part of the equation." I think they are a significant part, especially since they have a major impact on business spending and investment, as well as consumer spending. Furthermore, don't oil prices have a major impact on consumer and business confidence in the economy? And don't modern economists believe that confidence is a crucial factor?)

What I'm thinking about today is that rapidly escalating oil prices are possibly the most painful way to bring about the social and economic changes that most people on this forum have long been hoping for. And, like I said before, I think most of this pain will be borne by those who are already having a rough time.

You guys obviously know more about current economic theory than I do. What are your thoughts on the possibility of finding less painful ways to usher in an economy and society that are much less oil dependent? I have no idea what this might entail, but I bet some of you do.

Yeah, I should have said "one part of the equation", not "one SMALL part". Thanks for pointing it out.

As to finding less painful ways to achieve what we all seem to agree are positive goals - less dependence on fossil fuels and cars - I do not know the answer. There was a time when many environmentalists felt that a self-imposed carbon tax on all fossil fuels could be used to gradually raise the cost of those fuels, while providing funding for R&D on alternative energy sources, better public transportation, mitigation of CO2 emissions, etc. There could even be a rollback on income taxes, expecially at the low end, to offset the impact on lower income folks. New Zealand in fact has recently imposed a carbon tax. I really love this concept because the price rises, which changes behaviors, and funds are available to provide alternatives. Plus, it does not all go to the oil companies as is happening now. Unfortunately, with prices already on the rise and people screaming, any additional taxes are unlikely to happen.

The problem in this country is that our political processes reinforce short-term thinking and very little compromise. So little gets done of any significance. For the current majority party, taxes are anathema, to the extent we are actually spending more than we take in to run our government (roughly 17% of GDP income, 20% of GDP outflow), hence the deficit. While there are a few senators in each party who are forward-looking and trying to do something about climate change (McCain-Lieberman bill for example), for the most part our politicians won't do anything to upset big business, especially oil and auto mfg. It was disgusting to see indignant congressmen shouting "No mandates!' to the few calls for improved fuel efficiency that were raised during the recent energy bill discussions. As if it would kill us to tighten the belt a little when we import 60% of our oil from unstable countries, and the planet is warming.

I think the awareness is growing that something needs to be done about this dependence on oil, and concerns over climate change, but change comes slowly, and the market is appearing likely to do more, faster, than a planned approach. Which is unfortunate, because a coordinated approach, with clear signals to the marketplace and serious investment in new technology is likely to result in jobs and business growth, whereas our current path of market-driven ups and downs, speculation, and unclear direction, just hurts the economy and those most vulnerable.

We have really done a number to ourselves, haven't we? We've turned the corner, only to hit a wall. Our sacred principles (No new taxes . . . I have a God given right to live anywhere/drive anything I want . . . Technology will save us . . . etc., etc.) are more important than even our survival. Nobody on either side is willing to compromise or cooperate or lead.

I guess you guys are right -- we just have to take our licks, get over the oil thing, and the winners take all. It just ticks me off that poor people, who have no idea what's happening, will pay the piper while the fat cats and politicians just keep dancing.

And the band plays on . . . .

We have really done a number to ourselves, haven't we? We've turned the corner, only to hit a wall. Our sacred principles (No new taxes . . . I have a God given right to live anywhere/drive anything I want . . . Technology will save us . . . etc., etc.) are more important than even our survival. Nobody on either side is willing to compromise or cooperate or lead.

I guess you guys are right -- we just have to take our licks, get over the oil thing, and the winners take all. It just ticks me off that poor people, who have no idea what's happening, will pay the piper while the fat cats and politicians just keep dancing.

And the band plays on . . . .


I hope the fat cats protect themselves adequately if and when it all falls apart, dunno bout you folks, but im one somewhat angry peasant that has an axe to grind with some of the powers that be.I have a feeling im not alone either.A long term fuel crisis is the great equalizer I like to call it, at some point it puts everyone on more equal footing, not all the fat cats will get away unscathed methinks.Im pessimistic but not inclined to consider whats coming a doomsday type scenario at all, I think it will have some very dramatic events, no doubt there, I think a few resource wars are inevitable, but mostly I think it will be a long drawn out depression for several decades.I think its too late for the US to avoid huge problems even if we started in earnest right away, too many years of sins to fix and not enough time.

One thing i have found interesting in all of the gloating over the soon to occur suffering of drivers is the fact that the near-universal depenence on technology hasn't come up. many aspects of day to day life are controlled by, or at the least catalyzed by, computers. many things involved in the production of computer parts plastic. plastic comes mainly from petroleum. as oil prices continue to rise, given that realists admit that short of triple figures/gallon most american will continue to drive, a greater portion of the petrol that is raised will be pumped into gas tanks and not into other directions, meaning that we can look forward to a time in the not too far furture where not only will the currently occuring drop in tech costs reverse itself, but it will skyrocket, making everything more expensive.

Very true!

See ... as it happens I work for the petroleum industry. My company makes the basic substances from which thousands of plastic products are made.

If oil prices continue to rise, it only stands to reason that everything plastic will rise in price as well. Look around ... how much plastic stuff are you surrounded by? Even certain components and accessories of cycling are made from plastic.

Increasing Airfares:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16051858%255E1702,00.html
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1123817545601_60?s_name=&no_ads=


And locally ... they've just announced that taxi fares are going up.


Even for those of us trying to live a car-free lifestyle, it is getting expensive!

Your hypothesis isn't correct. Supply and demand aren't strong determiners when it comes to oil prices because the demand is essentially inelastic. I refer you to an economist for a reference. I'm not but my info from from them.

If you'd read the post you would have seen that I was referring to the demand for the other commodities mentioned in the original post. Personally, I couldn't care less about the price of oil.

Increasing Airfares:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16051858%255E1702,00.html
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1123817545601_60?s_name=&no_ads=



Consider the source, newspapers aren't known for being a reliable source of information in this country. My take on the airfares comes from what I see the airlines officially offering. Again, I'll start worrying when it rises above 1999 levels.

Sometimes, as a carfree person, I think I'm already living a lifestyle that would be good for most other people to take up in the near future. However, how can they be introduced to this lifestyle in a relatively painless way? It seems that just jacking up the price of oil might accomplish the objective, but only in a destructive and distressing way. I hope we can all put our heads together (not just us--everybody) and come up with an easier way to do it.


I wouldn't say the price is being jacked up. What we are actually seeing here is something which has been inevitable for years. It's well known that oil is a finite resource. It's also well known that a lot of countries in the developing world are now using oil in greater volume than they were before, hence there is pressure on that finite supply, which is dwindling all the time. As I said in my earlier post, this is something we've all known was coming for sometime (or at least, those of us with a bit of foresight).

The only question was when it was going to happen, and as far as I can see, the sooner it happens, the easier it will be on everyone.

If you'd read the post you would have seen that I was referring to the demand for the other commodities mentioned in the original post. Personally, I couldn't care less about the price of oil.

Oil is the fundemental price determiner for almost all goods and most services unless you are a hermit living off the grid. Yesterday I bought some fruit and some clothes made from natural fibers but the cost of oil was part of the cost I paid.

There is nothing you can do to avoid it aside from doing that living in a cave bit. The bicycles you ride wouldn't be if not for oil so be sure to give them up too.

Consider the source, newspapers aren't known for being a reliable source of information in this country. My take on the airfares comes from what I see the airlines officially offering. Again, I'll start worrying when it rises above 1999 levels.

Some airlines like Southwest, have long term contracts guaranteeing fuel at certain price levels. These guys, along with other who have contracted, aren't terribly affected.

I have a number of thoughts on the economics (particularly the trickle down and voodoo varietys) of this, the way markets work, etc. The only part I feel like sharing (in case of argument) is this. I think I'll buy a trailer for my bike......

1. Do you get all your food from a garden and from the livestock on your farm or acreage? Or do you buy your food from the grocery store?

If the oil prices go up, that will affect the farmers who have to pay out fuel to do their harvesting and other work, and it will affect the people who deliver the food to your grocery store, as well as many other industries in between. Food prices will go up.

2. Are you planning to purchase any large items in the next year? If so, how are you planning to get that item home? A delivery service maybe? Or a taxi?

If the oil prices go up, those delivery services and taxis will start charging more.

3. Are you planning a trip somewhere? Got any desire to go to Europe to cycle? How about to a cycling event in the next State or Province? How are you planning to get there? Rent a car? Fly?

If the oil prices go up, you'll have to pay for it when you rent a car, and already the airlines are raising their rates.

Even if you don't own a car, and even if you regularly walk or ride your bicycle everywhere, rising oil prices will still affect you in some way or another. Has your boss given you a raise to compensate?


1. I'm not so anti-auto that I don't see the value in them. When I see the lady next door getting into her monster truck and driving to the corner store 1/8th of a mile away for a bag of Doritos, though, I am happy about gas prices going up. I'm hopeful that people will begin to think about oil as a non-renewable resource and also that they can realize who is getting the dollars that they spend on the stuff. I'm mostly hopeful that people will start to understand the real transportation values of bicycles and even the validity of walking or using public transport. My happiness about gas prices isn't based on schadenfreude, but rather on hope.

2. I have no plans for any large items any time soon, and most things I want can be transported via bike. I live a very ascetic lifestyle. If prices go up for transportation, I'll just have to occasionally pay them.

3. All my trips are via bicycle. Yes, if I go to Europe, I'll use an airplane.

I am my own boss. No raise, unfortunately.

I'm willing to pay a higher price for products and services if it means less cars on the road.

So just today the wire services are reporting a big jump in inflation and they're blaming oil prices. So what do you all think now?

So just today the wire services are reporting a big jump in inflation and they're blaming oil prices. So what do you all think now?

Disappointed that oil prices have retreated.

The only thing that's going to curb the US's recent (last 30 years) uncontrolled sprawling growth is some sort of financial pressure.
So far planning is meeting with resistance and any attempt seems to be met with an anti-socialist paranioa.
Highway construction can't keep pace with traffic, more of our neighborhoods, farmlands and aerable lands are paved and we get farther and farther apart requiring more and more roads while housing prices increase, commute times are growing, road rage is increasing and particulate and air pollution is increasing in great parts from exhaust and highway dust.
The side effects of high oil arn't good. We could be looking at the end of an energy boom that started the industrial age, but the reversing the waste and inneffeciency of modern America is a bit celebratory to those who have deplored the waste. The rising cost will make local grown foods and products more competetive and is already increasing funding and focus on and for mass transit, alt trans and sustainable communities. It has changed my perceptions and though i started earlier than some is one of the reasons i started commuting. Now when i look for a house or job i highly value walkability, short commute, mass transit availability etc. I can't stand spending hours a day (scratch that) Wasteing hours a day sitting in a car to get to work.
I'm going to get my next degree online (as much as i can) so i don't have to spend the time driving (45 min each way? That's An hour and a half driving for a two hour class!)
That frustration has been endemic in much of the US. The price of oil feels like a vindication to those espousing soloutions.

I hope the temporary shock of oil prices (we'll recover) inspires the masses to readdress the love of fuel wasting, and see the nessecity for better building and planning.
I also hope we really don't run out. Things get too expensive international travel will cease for all but the wealthy, food and medicine distribution will become expensive, power for dishwasher, washing machines, air conditioning and the computer i type on more and more pricy.

But whether your power is from oil, gas or butterfly farts it will always be limited, and call me a Calvanist wierdo or something, and even thoug i believe in building BIG and pushing the limits and flying to mars etc, i don't get the obsessive wasting consuption.

thats just me.