View Full Version : Seattle, Sunday. almost ran down 50 plus roadies!
two lane road, Harbor Island bridge going east bound. we had the light but there was a large group of riders that thought it was ok to cut infront of us, going the opposite direction. had the car infront of us not stopped, we would have continued to drive as we had the right of way.
the riders seemed completely oblivious to the fact that they were holding up traffic and didn't have the right of way.
I cussed and threw things out my window at them. *
*not really, but I wanted to. jerks!
two lane road, Harbor Island bridge going east bound. we had the light but there was a large group of riders that thought it was ok to cut infront of us, going the opposite direction. had the car infront of us not stopped, we would have continued to drive as we had the right of way.
the riders seemed completely oblivious to the fact that they were holding up traffic and didn't have the right of way.
I cussed and threw things out my window at them. *
*not really, but I wanted to. jerks!
It's not clear how they cut you off. They were going the opposite direction. Did they make a left turn in front of you?
oh,yea. sorry...
they were going in the opposite direction and took a left...
the road we came down is a bridge that had opened for boat traffic. the bikers got a head start when the light changed at their end of the bridge. when we got to the light they were at, they didn't yeild to us/other cars but just kept going left, even though we had the right of way...
maybe they thought they were better than you?
maybe they thought they were better than you?
oh, I'm sure of it!
InfamousG
08-17-05, 01:39 PM
Herd Mentality.
If I were in a group of 50 riders, I wouldn't want to be "the one" that stops, which could just as easily cause a pile-up. Being that the lead car (with the right of way) had not gone, it meant it was safe (though maybe not legal) for the riders to keep going.
If it were 1 - 5 riders, I'd consider them jerks. If it's a group, they kept following the herd, who knows how sparatic their group may have been had they waited to go one by one through open spots in traffic.
A tight group of cyclists should be treated as a single large vehicle, and if they had the right-of-way when the beginning of the group started turning, you should expect to wait for the entire group to clear the intersection before it is your turn to go.
And if the car in front of you stopped to let the cyclists proceed, you don't have the right-of-way until the car in front of you proceeds, either.
It sure doesn't sound to me like something you should be getting your panties all bunched up about. What did it cost you? One cycle of the light, maybe 30 seconds or a couple of minutes max? :rolleyes:
I-Like-To-Bike
08-17-05, 02:19 PM
maybe they thought they were better than you?
The Subject Name fooled me. I thought it was a joke along the lines what's funnier than 50 obnoxious roadies/lawyers/you-name-'em run over?
Never mind
I understand the heard mentaility thing.
the thing is, they were stopped at a light. most still had their feet on the ground when we rolled up to them.
either way, one more reason to think roadies are scum. :D
That's what I was going to say, but you beat me to it. :)
A tight group of cyclists should be treated as a single large vehicle, and if they had the right-of-way when the beginning of the group started turning, you should expect to wait for the entire group to clear the intersection before it is your turn to go.
And if the car in front of you stopped to let the cyclists proceed, you don't have the right-of-way until the car in front of you proceeds, either.
It sure doesn't sound to me like something you should be getting your panties all bunched up about. What did it cost you? One cycle of the light, maybe 30 seconds or a couple of minutes max? :rolleyes:
A tight group of cyclists should be treated as a single large vehicle, and if they had the right-of-way when the beginning of the group started turning, you should expect to wait for the entire group to clear the intersection before it is your turn to go.
And if the car in front of you stopped to let the cyclists proceed, you don't have the right-of-way until the car in front of you proceeds, either.
It sure doesn't sound to me like something you should be getting your panties all bunched up about. What did it cost you? One cycle of the light, maybe 30 seconds or a couple of minutes max? :rolleyes:
This is only "if they had the right-of-way when the beginning of the group started turning." That isn't the case, though, as the OP described.
This is only "if they had the right-of-way when the beginning of the group started turning." That isn't the case, though, as the OP described.
The car in front stopped to let them go. If you're behind that car, you wait. Simple as that.
The car in front stopped to let them go. If you're behind that car, you wait. Simple as that.
Eh, we don't know if the car was forced to stop because of a jumpy group or what. Arguing over events we were not there to witness is useless at best. I have seen cyclists not even slow down to take a left at a light while the cars coming in the opposite direction brake like mad to keep the cyclist from meeting Darwin in the afterlife. Who knows. No matter how many wheels they have under them, you can count on stupidity coming up everywhere.
Big Tommy C
08-17-05, 03:51 PM
A tight group of cyclists should be treated as a single large vehicle, and if they had the right-of-way when the beginning of the group started turning, you should expect to wait for the entire group to clear the intersection before it is your turn to go.
You contradict yourself.
A vehicle has to have the right-of-way for the entire time it will be in an intersection. If I start turning and the light turns red while I'm in the intersection, I can be ticketed for running a red light.
zonatandem
08-17-05, 04:01 PM
Share the road . . .
My point is still that the OP is getting his panties in a twist over something that cost him at most 2 minutes of his time, and he was doing something nice for the cyclists while he waited. :)
My point is still that the OP is getting his panties in a twist over something that cost him at most 2 minutes of his time, and he was doing something nice for the cyclists while he waited. :)
Or maybe he's just trying to get OUR panties in a twist.
It's funny how folks, when they see a cyclist do something wrong, lay it on all cyclists. But every time I get on the road, on bike or car, EVERY CAR is exceeding the speed limit, not coming to a stop at stop signs or when making a right on red, cutting each other off. But that's A-OK.
cc_rider
08-17-05, 05:16 PM
A tight group of cyclists should be treated as a single large vehicle, and if they had the right-of-way when the beginning of the group started turning, you should expect to wait for the entire group to clear the intersection before it is your turn to go....
Is that something that appears in the traffic codes somewhere, or is that just a rule-of-thumb for cyclists?
I agree with it as a practical principle, but it seems to go against bikes following the same rules as vehicles.
DCCommuter
08-17-05, 09:02 PM
A tight group of cyclists should be treated as a single large vehicle, and if they had the right-of-way when the beginning of the group started turning, you should expect to wait for the entire group to clear the intersection before it is your turn to go.
Life must be so much more interesting when you make up your own rules of the road. I bet there's never a dull moment. :rolleyes:
Seriously, high-speed group rides are problematic from an advocacy standpoint. We want to be treated like other vehicles, but if you behaved like this with any other vehicle they'd lock you up in a heartbeat. This sort of behavior also makes it hard to promote the notion that cyclists are legitimate transportational users of the roads.
Life must be so much more interesting when you make up your own rules of the road. I bet there's never a dull moment. :rolleyes:
Seriously, high-speed group rides are problematic from an advocacy standpoint. We want to be treated like other vehicles, but if you behaved like this with any other vehicle they'd lock you up in a heartbeat. This sort of behavior also makes it hard to promote the notion that cyclists are legitimate transportational users of the roads.
You're so right I'm just speechless.... :rolleyes:
outashape
08-18-05, 02:15 AM
A tight group of motorcycle riders also ride as a group. Sometimes a road captain will block traffic with their bike to allow the group to pass through the intersection and then join the back of the ride. It is like a funeral procession.
Alloy Addict
08-18-05, 06:09 AM
Life must be so much more interesting when you make up your own rules of the road. I bet there's never a dull moment. :rolleyes:
Seriously, high-speed group rides are problematic from an advocacy standpoint. We want to be treated like other vehicles, but if you behaved like this with any other vehicle they'd lock you up in a heartbeat. This sort of behavior also makes it hard to promote the notion that cyclists are legitimate transportational users of the roads.
That's exactly what I was going to say. Actually you probably worded it better than I would have, so I guess it is better than what I was going to say.
InfamousG
08-18-05, 06:34 AM
You contradict yourself.
A vehicle has to have the right-of-way for the entire time it will be in an intersection. If I start turning and the light turns red while I'm in the intersection, I can be ticketed for running a red light.
This is a sticky one, a cop can easily say you didn't start turning until it went red and it'll be very hard to fight. A judge (when fighting) might not like "I was trying to beat it, so I am sure it was yellow" as your defense.
If you are in the intersection while the light is green, you're OK to turn (example if you are blocking traffic and a few cars run the red leaving you sitting at a red in the middle of the street). If you are not in the intersection before the yellow, you should wait for the next green.
Mr. Miskatonic
08-18-05, 08:12 AM
Or maybe he's just trying to get OUR panties in a twist.
It's funny how folks, when they see a cyclist do something wrong, lay it on all cyclists. But every time I get on the road, on bike or car, EVERY CAR is exceeding the speed limit, not coming to a stop at stop signs or when making a right on red, cutting each other off. But that's A-OK.
Oh, well that stuff doesn't count. Those are cars, not Roadie Scum (TM).
galen_52657
08-18-05, 09:30 AM
Car in front might have waved them through, seeing as it was a group of cyclist. I am sure your blood pressure meds kept you from blowing an artery seeing how you were so terribly inconvenienced.
Take another pill and try to contain yourself. I guess if the car had not been infront of you you would have run them down. Since they took your 'right of way' and all...they would be deserving of getting run over...
fawelsh
08-18-05, 10:01 AM
had the car infront of us not stopped, we would have continued to drive as we had the right of way.
the riders seemed completely oblivious to the fact that they were holding up traffic and didn't have the right of way.
I cussed and threw things out my window at them. *
* not really, but I wanted to. jerks!
What if you had you hit a couple of cyclists in the process? You would not have been at fault? Because you had the right of way?
I don't know why you think it's acceptable to threaten people's lives just to prove a point. Which is what? That cars have a right to the road? That your time is too precious to waste waiting two minutes for a group of cyclists to go by?
By the way, have you ever had someone throw something at you while you're biking? It's terrifying and infuriating. Had you not caused someone to crash you might very well have recieved a bike lock through your window.
They might not have been obeying the traffic laws, who knows they may have in fact been acting like jerks. But the fact that you felt justified in driving into them and/or throwing things at them makes you worse than them.
2manybikes
08-18-05, 11:09 AM
The car in front waited for them to get through the intersection apparently. If it were me in that car I would block the road (you) and the other cars behind me so that the riders could get through the intersection safely. Intersections can be difficult, and dangerous. If that's what the driver did in front of you, how nice. If not, it's probably safer that he HAD to wait.
Safety first, your lack of understand last.
Have you ever ridden through an intersection with other riders? It's wonderful to have someone stop and let you go.
It sounds to me like you never ride on the road in traffic. ????
If you do, I am surprised you don't see the point of view of the cyclist.
It sounds to me, if the “roadies” waited and let the other cars go first, and you were behind them, you would be mad because they held you up.
Since BICYCLES ARE TRAFFIC the traffic from that lane was flowing smoothly and safely out of the intersection.
So TRAFFIC WAS FLOWING.
What if you had you hit a couple of cyclists in the process? You would not have been at fault? Because you had the right of way?
uh, yea. if someone comes into my lane, I do believe they would be at fault..... :rolleyes:
fawelsh
08-18-05, 12:31 PM
uh, yea. if someone comes into my lane, I do believe they would be at fault..... :rolleyes:
Wrong. If you drive you car into someone riding a bicycle then you are criminally liable. Faliure to look, road rage, or sense of entitlement ("my lane") not withstanding.
Big Tommy C
08-18-05, 01:03 PM
I notice a lot of people are seeing this as an issue of a driver feeling that he is entitled to having the road, and that the cyclists are not. And that it's being made into a car vs cyclist struggle
In reality, it's a car following the law vs cyclists NOT following the law. Those cyclists are NOT entitled to use of the road, as they fail to follow its rules.
I know, I'm going to be accused of siding with someone in a car against someone on a bike.
In reality, I'm siding with the law.
A cyclist who runs a red light intentionally has no right to be angry when a car doesn't follow the law.
Gus Riley
08-18-05, 01:20 PM
Wrong. If you drive you car into someone riding a bicycle then you are criminally liable. Faliure to look, road rage, or sense of entitlement ("my lane") not withstanding.
Wrong, if they make a left into oncoming traffic without the right-away and they are unintentionally hit...they are at fault. The herd is thinned, and all other life goes on. Ever had a car make a sudden and "non" right-away turn in front of you? We don't always see these things happen as they occur. Just because a bicycle is involved does not mean there are or should be automatic criminal liability issues levied.
Erick L
08-18-05, 01:59 PM
Form what I understand,
Bikes had the green while the cars still had red.
Bikes go and turn left.
Cars now have green light.
Out here, when the light turns green, you can't engage in an intersection if there's still somebody in it. The tricky part here is it's a pack of cyclists and the ones behind may not be in the intersection when the light turns green for the cars, so technically the bikes should stop. I believe it makes sense to let them thru. It's like when 2-3 left turning cars go after the yellow. There's no point cutting them just to claim your right.
[qoute]
Form what I understand,
Bikes had the green while the cars still had red.
Bikes go and turn left.
Cars now have green light.
[/quote]
both cars and bike had the green at the same time. only the bike were closer to the crossing path/intersection so they started the left turn before the cars arrived at the cross/intersection......
sorry, i suck at descriptions...
Bekologist
08-18-05, 06:08 PM
the bikes got to the intersection first and started the turn before the cars arrived?
Sounds like the bikes DID have the right of way.
Dchiefransom
08-18-05, 07:27 PM
the bikes got to the intersection first and started the turn before the cars arrived?
Sounds like the bikes DID have the right of way.
Nope. I see this all the time. With that many in the group, not all the cyclists would be in the intersection when the light changes, some would still be behind the white line. It's not okay for every car in line to continue making a turnand run the red light, just as it's not okay for all the cyclists to run the red light.
Bikepacker67
08-18-05, 07:36 PM
A tight group of motorcycle riders also ride as a group. Sometimes a road captain will block traffic with their bike to allow the group to pass through the intersection and then join the back of the ride. It is like a funeral procession.
Well that's just fluckin' ridiculous.
Given that logic, my buds and I can treat our annual car caravan to the White Mtns as single "unit". Blocking all intersections until we all pass thru - just because we're special.
Follow the rules.
If your "time" takes a hit, well, tough chit.
bluejack
08-19-05, 10:19 AM
It would be nice -- as a society -- if we were able to occasionally suspend our rigid ruleset as a goodwill gesture to accomodate groups of people out enjoying the world, whether it's a "critical mass" of shabby slackers or packs of sleek roadies or impromptu parades or festivals or whatever. We have law to protect ourselves from each other, but sometimes we can suspend the rules in order to be nice to each other.
I understand these cyclists were not in full adherence to the law (although the point was made that perhaps the driver in front of you waved them through, in which case your anger is doubly misplaced).
As such I can agree that, all things being equal, they were "in the wrong." But as for who the jerks are... there may be some debate left open on that point.
Alloy Addict
08-19-05, 12:06 PM
If cyclists want to be treated like we have the same right to the road as other vehicles, which we do, then we need to follow the traffic laws. Somebody please post the law that states that a group of bicycles is considered one vehicle. I would love to read it.
This is just a Critical Mass thread in disguise. :rolleyes:
2manybikes
08-19-05, 12:21 PM
It would be nice -- as a society -- if we were able to occasionally suspend our rigid ruleset as a goodwill gesture to accomodate groups of people out enjoying the world, whether it's a "critical mass" of shabby slackers or packs of sleek roadies or impromptu parades or festivals or whatever. We have law to protect ourselves from each other, but sometimes we can suspend the rules in order to be nice to each other.
I understand these cyclists were not in full adherence to the law (although the point was made that perhaps the driver in front of you waved them through, in which case your anger is doubly misplaced).
As such I can agree that, all things being equal, they were "in the wrong." But as for who the jerks are... there may be some debate left open on that point.
Very well said. Thank you.
From a driver who lets cyclists go, and a cyclist who lets cars go. And someone who rides through interesections with traffic once in a while. Your attitude and the way you explain it is appreciated.
My guess is that anyone who rides a bike through an intersection with traffic would appreciate it too.
:beer:
fawelsh
08-19-05, 12:56 PM
It would be nice -- as a society -- if we were able to occasionally suspend our rigid ruleset as a goodwill gesture to accomodate groups of people out enjoying the world, whether it's a "critical mass" of shabby slackers or packs of sleek roadies or impromptu parades or festivals or whatever. We have law to protect ourselves from each other, but sometimes we can suspend the rules in order to be nice to each other.
I understand these cyclists were not in full adherence to the law (although the point was made that perhaps the driver in front of you waved them through, in which case your anger is doubly misplaced).
As such I can agree that, all things being equal, they were "in the wrong." But as for who the jerks are... there may be some debate left open on that point.
Well said. I think it helps if you can see this from both sides. On the one hand, you have the fifty cyclists out enjoying their day. At some point they turn through an intersection, passing in front of a car which is either patiently waving them through or completely willing to wait until they pass.
On the other hand, you have the motorist behind the stopped car. He's seething, offended about the breaking of traffic laws, wanting to just drive straight through the group of cyclists and/or throw things at them. He's so worked up that he posts a message on a bike discussion board about "almost (running) down fifty cyclists!".
Not much debate here as far as I can tell.
the car infront was not waving them through. the driver stopped because the bike riders were in the way.
also, i was a passenger, not the driver. the bike riders were jerks, they didn't even aknowledge the car that stopped for them. if I could do it all over again, I would throw something at them.
2manybikes
08-20-05, 08:29 AM
the car infront was not waving them through. the driver stopped because the bike riders were in the way.
also, i was a passenger, not the driver. the bike riders were jerks, they didn't even aknowledge the car that stopped for them. if I could do it all over again, I would throw something at them.
Have you ever ridden through an intersection in traffic with a few other cyclists?
I'm not saying what they did was legal, but it is possible it may have been safer. It also can be scary to sit in traffic at the light with the cars behind you, as they would have if they did not all go though at once.
I was not there, they may have been being jerks too. But this is what pops into my head when you describe what happened. It is hard to see the situation in your imagination when someone describes it on the forums too. But, It makes me wonder if you have ever had the experience that the cyclists were going through. If you have done It and still think they were being jerks that makes your point of view easier to understand. Have you ever ridden through an intersection in traffic with a few other cyclists?
Do you ride in traffic much?
Life must be so much more interesting when you make up your own rules of the road. I bet there's never a dull moment. :rolleyes:
Seriously, high-speed group rides are problematic from an advocacy standpoint. We want to be treated like other vehicles, but if you behaved like this with any other vehicle they'd lock you up in a heartbeat. This sort of behavior also makes it hard to promote the notion that cyclists are legitimate transportational users of the roads.
Gee this is exactly the way a military convoy operates... we don't seem to have issues with those other grouped users of the road.
MadeInKIM
08-20-05, 12:56 PM
You contradict yourself.
A vehicle has to have the right-of-way for the entire time it will be in an intersection. If I start turning and the light turns red while I'm in the intersection, I can be ticketed for running a red light.
I may need some additional information, and though I'm not necessarily familiar with local laws/ordinances, but if you clear the Stop Line (that big/thick white line where a car is supposed to come to a complete stop for a red light or a stop sign) before your signal cycle turns red (ie. green or yellow), you are acting completely within the limits of the law. In other words, you can pass the stop line while the light is yellow and even still be in the intersection as your signal just turned red. There is a phase within the signal called "All Red" (it means exactly how it sounds) that is supposed to factor for this.
noone understands... time is of the essence here. my precious 10 seconds they've wasted prevents me from getting from this traffic light to the next red light will ruin my whole day. my mood will never recover from this blow and i will spend the entire day projecting onto others. in turn, these others will spread my hate causing a chain reaction that will leave my entire city seething in anger, ready to throw things at anyone who is not encased in metal and glass.
how do you know he did not wave them through? did the car in front of you slam on his breaks and start waving his arms frantically with an occasional single finger upturned? often times, i'm waiting to make a left, whether alone or in a group and a courteous driver stops, obviously to let me through. it happens when i'm a pedestrian too! i'll wait for the car to turn and yet, strangely enough! he'll sit there looking at me, waiting for me to make the first move!
Big Tommy C
08-20-05, 02:15 PM
often times, i'm waiting to make a left, whether alone or in a group and a courteous driver stops, obviously to let me through. it happens when i'm a pedestrian too! i'll wait for the car to turn and yet, strangely enough! he'll sit there looking at me, waiting for me to make the first move!
This happens sometimes. It's intended as a courtesy, but usually it just ends up messing traffic up more as people who have green are forced to stop.
If everyone just followed the rules, traffic would flow much better. It would still suck, but it would suck LESS.
This happens sometimes. It's intended as a courtesy, but usually it just ends up messing traffic up more as people who have green are forced to stop.
If everyone just followed the rules, traffic would flow much better. It would still suck, but it would suck LESS.
i agree... usually, when someone does extend that courtesy, they are thinking about their path and my path, not concerning themselves with the next lane over which has a car coming through fast, ready to hit me when i take their cue to go. it's all about taking into considering all possible circumstances... protect your own ass. i'm only saying that if someone does decide to let a cyclist go by, the person in the back who feels he is inconvienenced has just got to deal with it. it may be that the bikers weren't necessarily at fault.
bkrownd
08-20-05, 03:54 PM
A tight group of motorcycle riders also ride as a group. Sometimes a road captain will block traffic with their bike to allow the group to pass through the intersection and then join the back of the ride. It is like a funeral procession.
Which is why normal people detest motorcycle gangs as much as arrogant roadies.
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