Road Bike Racing - European retailers equal GREAT PRICES

Why are European road frames so much more less expensive in Europe than in the USA??? It can't be because of duties. The duty on a frame coming from Europe is only 3.9%, that's less than sales tax in most states. Has anyone ever bought a Pinarello, Colnago, de Rosa, or any other frame directly from Europe and how much did you save????? Any problems with any of your transactions????? Was the frame a factory second or what?? Would you do it again????

Shipping costs surely factor into it. But, it might partly be a question of market. Maybe they know they can ask more in the U.S.

In Europe there currently is a big discussion over car prices. With the E.U. and the Euro, they are supposed to even out. But, I recently heard on the radio that crossing a border can save you as much as 40% on a car. The example they gave was a small Opel. Made in Germany, the bugger costs significantly less in Denmark. The reason is apparently that the Danes price their cars lower to compensate for a high VAT. But, you pay taxes only in the country in which you register the car. Since Germany has some of the highest car prices in the E.U., if I get car (which I don't need anyway), I'll definitely look into crossing a border to do it--even though I am likely to buy a German made car.

Also you should know that when you see prices posted for a bike, the VAT is almost already included in the price (not like the sales tax being added afterward in the U.S.). In Germany, the VAT is over 16%. You could come here, buy your frame or parts, and take it back with you. You'll be able to get at least 10% of the tax back at the airport (you can get all 16%, if you know how).

I have recently compared prices on gruppo's. I have found that, in the U.S., Campy is generally about $200 more than the equivalent Shimano. In Europe, Campy can be as much as € 200 less than the equivalent Shimano (and yes, this means that Campy is several hundred Euro less, and Shimano several hundred more, that the U.S. prices). Since Shimano comes from Japan, I cannot explain the increase. But, I'd rather have Campy anyway, so I'm happy.

So, on your next trip to Europe, plan a bike upgrade into your budget. A frame might be harder to transport, but a gruppo in a tidy little suitcase, would be easy.

Anyone who ever told you that Europe was much more expensive than the U.S. didn't know what he/she was talking about.

Cheers,
Jamie

P.S. And while I am making you green with envy, I'll just toss in that Continental tires cost in DM what they cost in dollars. In short, they cost about 1/2 here.

I just realized that I didn't really answer the man's questions. I have no experience with shipping a frame to the U.S., so I can't really comment.

But given what I said about the VAT being included in the price that is posted, you should be able to get them to take their country's VAT off the price. Don't believe them when they tell you that they cannot do it--they would love to pocket the extra 10-20%. It might be a slight hassel for them to take the tax off (since they would have to prove that they had shipped the frame abroad), but legally it should be possible.

The Italian postal service is not known for its reliability, but you would have nothing to risk with either the French, Germans, or Swiss (for other countries, I cannot say). It might be best to go with UPS or DHL or whomever anyway.

If I were placing an order for something as expensive as a frame, however, I wouldn't just do it "over the web." I would definitely talk to them on the phone.

Best of luck,
Jamie

This is strange. Yesterday evening, 8/13/02, the first and only reply to this thread at the time was from Pokey. I posted a second reply. Now both are gone!

Jmlee, check out that VAT thing before you go over the border to purchase a car. Germany may require you to pay some taxes before you can register the car. That's the way sales tax works here in my state in the US. When you go to register a car you bought out of state without paying sales tax they collect it from you. A friend of mine went to Europe and bought a Mercedes for about $10,000 less than he would have paid for the same car in the US. When he went to register the car to get license plates the state wanted something like $3000 in sales taxes so he drove it illegally for years until he finally got caught. By the time you add up his airfare, the cost of shipping the car and the sales taxes, he wound up saving very little. Of course, he also got a trip to Europe so I guess you could back that out of the equation. :D

I don't know that I would risk buying a frame from Europe to save money. If it was damaged in shipment or later had warranty problems you might really have a lot of hassle. If I ever get to Europe, I have toyed with the idea of buying a frame that is not sold in the US, such as Flandrian.

I was wondering where those responses went.
Jamie, is it possible that the European
exporters are deducting the VAT and that's why
some of the components appear so much less than
US prices?
I'm really bummed that I didn't get to Germany this
summer, I really wanted that new Campy Record
gruppo.
I don't know, Wein was pretty expensive
compared to the states.

Marty

Rainman, You did post to the thread
only its here :
Cross Thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13149&goto=nextnewest)
JoeyJindan, welcome to the forums, hope you stick
around. One bit of advice, don't post same thread
in multiple forums, you'll find that your question etc. will
get answered, most of us read most ofl the threads.

Marty

As I understand it for buying a car, within the E.U., when you buy a car you pay only the VAT in the country where the car will be registered. So, if I buy in France, I deduct the French VAT, but add the German VAT. The French VAT is close to the German 16% VAT. The only issue is that you will not be charged twice for the taxes.

But, the real point with the cars is that there are massive differences in prices (especially with smaller models). So, buying a VW Golf (a mid-size car here) could be significantly cheaper if I buy in certain other European countries (i.e. outside Germany) even if I have to pay the German VAT. And, transporting the thing to the U.S. is not an issue for me anyway.

Back to bike stuff, Lotek, I am not sure which exporters you are talking about, so I don't know whether they are already deducting the VAT. But, the standard here is to post prices with the VAT included--what you see, is what you pay. A lot of German retailers give you a receipt which also shows the pre-VAT subtotal, and the amount of VAT paid.

I don't know whether there are substantial differences between the European countries on bike parts. I have only done the most casual of comparisons (I don't even recall the actual numbers). But, when I did I remember that getting Campy in Germany would be a good 5-10% less than in the States (and that includes the VAT).

Since I live here, I am not eligible to get the tax-rebate when I leave the country. But, like I said, someone who lives outside the E.U. could get a large chunk of the tax back. Of course, in theory, you have to pay taxes on the stuff when you get to the U.S. as Rainman's story shows. But, it is considerably easier to fudge that with a gruppo than with a Mercedes.

Cheers,
Jamie

P.S. Further reflection on this issue suggests that many price differences may have to do with market strategy. That is why a Golf is cheaper in Portugal--the Portuguese wouldn't pay what one pays in Germany, and VW knows that. Campy may be pricing its components in the U.S. a tad higher than Shimano, because it knows that it can ask that price in the U.S. It creates an illusion of being better just because they are more expensive.

Think of plane tickets: a flight from Madison, WI which changed planes in Chicago was always cheaper for me than a flight out of Chicago to the same destination. I never understood that until I understood the marketing strategies.

Jamie,

I just went out to total cycling, and they state
clearly on their home page

International and domestic mail order of high end bicycle frames, components, wheels and apparel. Catalogue prices including VAT at 17.5% are shown in UK pounds (GBP). Approximate prices in US $ with VAT sales tax removed are also shown. Customers outside the EEC do not pay VAT.
I wonder if other retailers do this (i.e. Renaisance cycles in
Eindhoven)

Marty

Okay, Lotek piqued my curiosity. I checked again on the prices for Campagnolo and Shimano Gruppos. I was not totaly right about Shimano being more expensive in Europe—that is true only for the Ultegra. The American prices come from Colorado Cyclist (www.coloradocyclist.com), the German (Euro) prices come from H & S Bike Discount here in Bonn (www.bike-discount.de).

Also, the German prices are all “without hubs”, and the Colorado prices are all “with hubs”, so you gotta factor that in. This seems to make all but Ultegra slightly cheaper here in Europe. By the way, I am thinking a $1:1 Eur exchange ratio, which is close to the current rate.

Campagnolo Record(10) $1289.00 vs. 1066.00 Eur
Campagnolo Chorus(10) $859.00 vs. 711.00 Eur
Shimano Dura-Ace $969.00 vs. 888.00 Eur
Shimano Ultegra $599.00 vs. 622.00 Eur


And, as I said before, the German prices reflect an 16% VAT added into the price.

Cheers,
Jamie

When I factor in approx. cost for hubs
(based on 1:1 $ to Euro) at H&S bike
the prices are a bit cheaper in Germany
but not all that much. However when you discount
the 16%vat it is significant.
for UK. (at Total Cycling) the break is as follows
(compared to Colorado cyclist)


Colorado Total (less vat)
Record Gruppo:
$1289 $1147
Chorus Gruppo
$859 $ 772
Dura Ace group
$969 $900
Ultegra group
$599 $589
Seems there isn't as much diff in the Shimano stuff
(makes sense since its not part of EU).
Interesting