Stupidity on Two Wheels [Archive] - Page 2

Metieval

08-22-05, 09:30 PM

After reading all of the responses here. I have more thoughts to post.

I still think anybody on a bike breaking traffic laws laws like they did, will only hurt the cycling community for getting respect from drivers.

Was it a cool video? sure but at what price?

My other thoughts is that the guys on bikes in the video acted like idiots. BUT they wasn't the only idiots I saw. I was taught in drivers ed, that when in an accident situation, to aim for the soft spot.
If I had a green light, and a retard drunk ran a redlight, I wouldn't take the chance of slamming on my brakes which may lead to me getting rear ended. I am obeying the laws of the road as a driver. The dude running the red light made his choice. And he isn't worth my back getting messed up by getting rear ended.

At the same time these guys in the video are smart enough to know that Drivers are idiots and will brake for them. So why do they do what they do? Because they can get away with it, (or they think they can) and they will get away with it, until someone like me comes along and says oops you ran a red light.....Oh well... and turn him into a speed bump.

I think these guys should be nominated for Darwin awards though.

And to some of you arguing that these guys are making political statements. Thank you for enlightening me and teaching me something new. I think the next time I see a IDIOT on a bike coming at me head on, I'll move over in front of him, and keep doing so until we collide. Thus I will be in the right, because I am simply making a political statement :lol:

aadhils

08-22-05, 09:31 PM

All I saw was a bunch of drunk knuckleheads.....

Delix

08-22-05, 10:03 PM

I still think anybody on a bike breaking traffic laws laws like they did, will only hurt the cycling community for getting respect from drivers.

Was it a cool video? sure but at what price?

My other thoughts is that the guys on bikes in the video acted like idiots. BUT they wasn't the only idiots I saw. I was taught in drivers ed, that when in an accident situation, to aim for the soft spot.
If I had a green light, and a retard drunk ran a redlight, I wouldn't take the chance of slamming on my brakes which may lead to me getting rear ended. I am obeying the laws of the road as a driver. The dude running the red light made his choice. And he isn't worth my back getting messed up by getting rear ended... So why do they do what they do? Because they can get away with it, (or they think they can) and they will get away with it, until someone like me comes along and says oops you ran a red light.....Oh well... and turn him into a speed bump.

Are you really saying that given the choice between having your back injured in an accident and killing a fellow cyclist that you would choose to kill the rider?? Thats absurd and you know it. I agree that traffic laws should be obeyed but i think that your little illustration here was just well...stupid, and it didnt make you sound cool or tough. I doubt that you would be so cavalier about running down a fellow rider if the opportunity ever presented itself. And i hate to be the internet grammer police but " they wasnt the only idiots you ever done did sawed..." What?! C'mon Cledis :)

randya

08-22-05, 10:30 PM

Watch it, he'll go all 'metieval' on them... :rolleyes:

Metieval

08-22-05, 10:46 PM

Are you really saying that given the choice between having your back injured in an accident and killing a fellow cyclist that you would choose to kill the rider?? Thats absurd and you know it. I agree that traffic laws should be obeyed but i think that your little illustration here was just well...stupid, and it didnt make you sound cool or tough. I doubt that you would be so cavalier about running down a fellow rider if the opportunity ever presented itself. And i hate to be the internet grammer police but " they wasnt the only idiots you ever done did sawed..." What?! C'mon Cledis :)

A fellow cyclist wouln't put my health in danger :)

I don't care if I am considered cool or tough. IT would be the riders choice to put people at risk. A risk I don't feel the need to be involved in.

I wouldn't go out of my way to run a rider down. But if he expects me to slam on my brakes because he wants to run a red light????

You can call it whatever you want, I would call it suicide on his part.

Are you really saying that given the choice between having your back injured in an accident and killing a fellow cyclist that you would choose to kill the rider??

So how would a rider putting himself in my vehicals path become my responsibility or my choice?

randya

08-22-05, 10:56 PM

gnz

08-22-05, 11:00 PM

but i have to say after watching the video...WOW! I'm thinking 3-D IMAX...wouldn't that be cool with that semi approaching? could be a rush to watch. don't condone what those crazy guys are doing, but it was a cool video. yea, stupid stunt, but pretty exciting to see. don't try this at home, kids!Well at the end of the day that sums up my feelings too... I think they are some awesome videos... it just doesn't feel right that they balantly ignore red lights and pass so near of pedestrians and cars. Really crazy stuff.

Metieval

08-22-05, 11:08 PM

Pretty much the only person who gets hurt when bike meets car is the cyclist, regardless of who's at fault. I have seen the police reports for Portland Oregon 2000-01 that indicate 99 cyclists are hurt for every injured car occupant, even though the motorists were at fault six times out of ten.

That sounds like a good reason for riders to not run red lights then. :D

OH and if you haven't figured it out yet. A rider running a red light would be at fault :lol:

Brian

08-23-05, 01:37 AM

For a short while I thought we had folks from the BMX forum posting here... :D

We did. Still do.

[snip]All of you posters calling these riders dumb or stupid know that these messengers could ride circles around you even after a couple of 40oz pit stops. It's not a political statement, they are showing off, more like a Warren Miller Video than an NRA rally (what a tenuous analogy that was.)

[snip]

If you can't appreciate the skills that this kind of riding requires and the desire to ride like they do then just go back to your safe little bike lanes and shut up.

I wasn't aware, nor do I agree, that these guys can ride circles around me. But I will acknowledge that they are showing off. That is, if "Showing off" still means the same as "Acting stupid". I also fail to see what is so appreciable about their riding. The are flouting traffic laws, endangering themselves and others, and generally acting in socially unacceptable manner. No class of people has a right to make their own road rules, nor do they have the right to drink and operate a vehicle. You'll find that most states only have 2 classes of traffic - pedestrian and non-pedestrian. And even Texas frowns on non-pedestrian traffic being under the influence. But as I understand it, they are bike messengers. So, without flaming me, please advise what qualifications are required to become a bike messenger, other than a bike and no appreciable skills that would help them gain meaningful employment.

weremichael

08-23-05, 04:23 AM

But as I understand it, they are bike messengers. So, without flaming me, please advise what qualifications are required to become a bike messenger, other than a bike and no appreciable skills that would help them gain meaningful employment.

So without flaming you:

I don't know what kind of job that you have (nor do I care) that you think you're "career" is more important than other people's "jobs." Do you think that your mailman/fedex guy/ups chick is meaningfully employed?? I think these jobs are meaningful. I don't know about you, but I love getting food delivered to my house by the chinese food delivery guy. When I was living in Oregon, there was a pizza joint that delivered pizza by bike, that wasn't just meaningful it was a statement against car culture AND good organic food. Bicycle messengers provide a service of getting item 1 from point a to point b faster than ANY other way in a city.

My friends that are/were messengers are extremely physically fit, the best cyclist I have ever met (they kick ass at cyclocross events), they have quick reflexes (catching flies with the chopsticks speed) and obviously possess somewhat of a death wish (oh and by the way several of them are working on masters/phds, so in your hegemonic cultural view they must also be intelligent).

I don't ride like the riders in those videos (nor am I able to) nor do I advocate anyone else doing so either. I do support bike messengers as they are providing an important service in urban environments. Complaining about bike messengers is like complaining about illegal aliens: Trash talk their culture, Pay them very little, but above all else make sure the rich use their services.

Michael

Brian

08-23-05, 04:49 AM

Michael,

Thank you for your civilized response. I suppose rather than making it sound like I'm lumping all bike messengers into one category, I should have referred to the specific type as evidenced in the video. It may be rather presumptuous of me, but they do not appear to be the kind of people working on their higher education. As for comparing them to the mailman/FedEx/UPS persons, I fail to see your correlation. They must have a license, a clean driving record, and obey the law when operating a motor vehicle, during both work and non-working hours.

I was not aware that I had a "Hegemonic cultural view". I have more respect for the guy that picks up my garbage cans at precisely 6 AM every Wednesday morning than I do for the state manager of the company I work for. But bike messengers have created an image for themselves, and do nothing to dispel the notion that they are anything more than the hoons presented in the video.

I witnessed someone possibly under the influence of alcohol run a red light, make an illegal turn down a one way street, and collide with an oncoming vehicle, then attempt to flee the scene of the accident. But apparently it's ok, because he's a bike messenger? Because during the week he provides a service?

weremichael

08-23-05, 05:53 AM

Expat,

I don't excuse the drinking and racing footage 'cause they're bike messengers (I don't excuse the footage period).

Although I am sure there are no data available to substantiate it but, I bet bike messengers cause less accidents/injuries per capita then mail men, fedex guys and ups chicks.

I realize that messengers don't have to have a "cyclist license" to be a messenger, but they are required to ride illegally to get paid. It goes into my illegal alien analogy: Illegal aliens break the law to come to country A to work. Messengers break laws to get product 1 from a to b faster than any other method in a city. Both groups have to break the law to do complete their job. People primarily dislike both of these groups primarily because they don't understand their culture (not because they break laws).

I can't speak for bike messenger culture (as only having friends that are/were part of it). I guess I am member of the "alternative" bike culture (human powered parading, critical mass riding, bike polo playing and cyclocross racing). I do pride myself on being different then the cager culture that causes wars over oil and that destroys the environment. I think that a law abiding cager is more of a criminal (against nature instead of man's law) than some jackass riding his bike through Manhattan or San Fran (see the other races on digaves site).

The language in your post shows that you're part of the hegemonic culture. It's not about respecting garbage men, it's about finding the world you identify with. I am at home in a world that tries to live lower on the food chain then the rest of my country mates and part of this world is bicycling.

As far as cycling, drinking and graduate school: I'll just say they are not mutually exclusive (they seem to go hand to hand in a lot of cases).

As far as garbage men go, there is this one guy that I see running stop signs every Monday on my ride to work. He sucks!!!

Michael

Kyle90

08-23-05, 08:00 AM

Jesus... people getting so aggervated over a video. Oh, and it's completely ignorant to hate a car. Someone on the first page said cars cuase global warming.. LOL.. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. The average tempature is ONE degree high then it was in 1547. shut it.

galen_52657

08-23-05, 08:27 AM

Great scenes of Baltimore.... Patterson Park, The dell next to Johns Hopkins....

This vidio is nothing more than another segment of Jackass... only without the national distribution and advertising income.....

Trevor98

08-23-05, 08:58 AM

Stealing this threat for a second:

Someone on the first page said cars cause global warming.. LOL.. THERE IS NO SUCH THING. The average tempature is ONE degree high then it was in 1547. shut it.

First off, the arguments over global warming are not whether its happening but rather over its cause. Claiming that the average temperature in 1547 is ONE degree cooler than today is irrelevant. In fact, 1547 was in the middle of what is called "The Little Ice Age" (1300s-1800s) that followed "The Medieval Warming Period" (900s-1300s). These were multi-century long cooling and warming trends and are recorded in history. In 1816 for example there was no summer in the northern hemisphere and people ice skated on the Thames River in London (not a normal activity). The Medieval Warm Period was also the period of Viking exploration as their northern routes were thaw longer.

These two periods predate the modern thermometer and their actual temperatures are only speculative. The period since the standardization of thermometers reveals a trend towards warmer global temperatures (even excluding the urban heat island effects as it applies to temperature recording stations).

Temperatures are currently rising according to recorded data and scientists are arguing over the cause(s) (whether the change is anthropogenic or natural variability). If you want more information, take a class or do more research in peer reviewed sources.

Regardless of global warming's validity why do you feel the need to be rude?

ch0mb0

08-23-05, 09:00 AM

great video, fun to watch even tho it's been posted & discussed endlessly on these forums

Kyle90

08-23-05, 09:48 AM

Stealing this threat for a second:

First off, the arguments over global warming are not whether its happening but rather over its cause. Claiming that the average temperature in 1547 is ONE degree cooler than today is irrelevant. In fact, 1547 was in the middle of what is called "The Little Ice Age" (1300s-1800s) that followed "The Medieval Warming Period" (900s-1300s). These were multi-century long cooling and warming trends and are recorded in history. In 1816 for example there was no summer in the northern hemisphere and people ice skated on the Thames River in London (not a normal activity). The Medieval Warm Period was also the period of Viking exploration as their northern routes were thaw longer.

These two periods predate the modern thermometer and their actual temperatures are only speculative. The period since the standardization of thermometers reveals a trend towards warmer global temperatures (even excluding the urban heat island effects as it applies to temperature recording stations).

Temperatures are currently rising according to recorded data and scientists are arguing over the cause(s) (whether the change is anthropogenic or natural variability). If you want more information, take a class or do more research in peer reviewed sources.

Regardless of global warming's validity why do you feel the need to be rude? It aggervated me, that's why. I also hate these stupid and ignorant reasons why you shouldn't drive a car, or ride a bike in order to get to your destination fast. Personally, I don't be a sissy and ride slow, and careful if I'm in a hurry.. I will do what's needed to get to my destination quick enough, and riding on the defence will get you no where fast. Ehiter way.. there's no swaying the self-righteous person's opinion and veiw.

kwv

08-23-05, 10:48 AM

Stealing this threat for a second:

First off, the arguments over global warming are not whether its happening but rather over its cause. Claiming that the average temperature in 1547 is ONE degree cooler than today is irrelevant. In fact, 1547 was in the middle of what is called "The Little Ice Age" (1300s-1800s) that followed "The Medieval Warming Period" (900s-1300s). These were multi-century long cooling and warming trends and are recorded in history. In 1816 for example there was no summer in the northern hemisphere and people ice skated on the Thames River in London (not a normal activity). The Medieval Warm Period was also the period of Viking exploration as their northern routes were thaw longer.

These two periods predate the modern thermometer and their actual temperatures are only speculative. The period since the standardization of thermometers reveals a trend towards warmer global temperatures (even excluding the urban heat island effects as it applies to temperature recording stations).

Temperatures are currently rising according to recorded data and scientists are arguing over the cause(s) (whether the change is anthropogenic or natural variability). If you want more information, take a class or do more research in peer reviewed sources.

Regardless of global warming's validity why do you feel the need to be rude?

Why do Kyle90 feel the need to be rude?

Because they got hot under the collar ;-)

But going back to the thread maybe the riders should star in the next video of jackass or star with The Tokyo Shock Boys to prove if they got what it takes.

Treespeed

08-23-05, 10:56 AM

Michael,

Your illegal alien analogy is a great comparison to the dilemna posed by bike messengers. I guess I was a little too defensive of the illegal aspects of the videos. I had only watched the race video and not the drinking video. Regardless the truth of the matter is that there is a need for bike messengers riding illegaly in the urban core. People want it both ways, they want the convenience of being able to drive right to their office, but they also want their legal documents filed across town in 15 minutes. It's pure capitalism, X amount of dollars for a certain amount of work. Do you think any of the lawyers ever ask the dispatcher if the messenger is going to obey all of the traffic laws as she delivers his filing. Someone could try and start a VC messenger company and it would fail from the get go. There is a demand for legal documents, real estate papers, blueprints, and escrow checks to fly around the gridlocked cities of the world and the only way to do it is by ignoring some of the traffic laws.

You need to consider that these riders knew they were being filmed, so they were showing off. I'm sure none of the posters on this forum ever did stupid things when they were young imagining themselves to be invincible. Despite all of the red lights these guys run did they hit a single ped? No. These guys and girls have great skills and I seriously doubt they have ever hit anyone. Where as drivers hit and kill peds all of the time.

If the cops wanted to they could shut down messenger companies in a moment. Just sit at the intersections near the courthouses and arrest every messenger that runs a red light. It doesn't happen as they know there would be such a tremendous uproar from the business community as the city's paperwork came to a complete halt.

These guys are celebrating their skills and sharing them with other cyclists who appreciate them and take the same risks themselves everyday. They are not part of the advocacy promoted on this forum and they aren't making a political statement. The drivers who would hassle you because they saw a messenger run a red light would hassle you anyways. It is the same idiotic logic where someone sees an SUV driver do something jerky and then make a blanket statement about all of those jerky SUV drivers. Just because someone rides a bike doesn't mean they have to proscribe to the same definition of safety. We don't all have to speak with the same voice, that's called facism.

Delix

08-23-05, 12:04 PM

So how would a rider putting himself in my vehicals path become my responsibility or my choice?

Well you made it very clear that wouldnt make an attempt to avoid the potential accident and "risk getting your back screwed up" but that you would "aim for the soft spot". Yes i agree that at that point it would be his fault, but if a 11 year old kid ran out in front of your car not at a crosswalk and without looking first it wouldnt be your fault, responsibility, or choice either; but something tells me that you would try to avoid killing someone. Even if it meant potentially wrecking your car and sustaining a few injuries. You should take that as a compliment. I still have hope in the compassion one can feel for the life of a stranger, thats all.

Erick L

08-23-05, 12:27 PM

If you can't appreciate the skills that this kind of riding requires and the desire to ride like they do then just go back to your safe little bike lanes and shut up.

Try riding the bike path on a sunny sunday afternoon. Riding in grid-lock traffic is a piece of cake compared to that. Notice he didn't get hit in grid-lock. Perhaps he should learn some suburbia riding skills.

I doubt businesses care one bit about what messengers do to get their package delivered. And these guys weren't working, they were racing and just being jerks. The video isn't even good. That other one in NYC was much better.

Hawkear

08-23-05, 01:49 PM

It aggervated me, that's why.Good for you, for feeling aggervated. That must be a new and unique feeling, since I've never heard of it before.
I also hate these stupid and ignorant reasons why you shouldn't drive a car, or ride a bike in order to get to your destination fast.What reasons are these? Physical fitness, fun, saving money, and reducing your impact on the environment are stupid and ignorant? What, pray tell, are your smart and intelligent reasons for cycling?
Personally, I don't be a sissy and ride slow, and careful if I'm in a hurry.. I will do what's needed to get to my destination quick enough, and riding on the defence will get you no where fast.Personally, I don't be a sissy, either. I don't know who does be a sissy. (sorry, that was painful)
Ehiter way.. there's no swaying the self-righteous person's opinion and veiw.Obviously. Especially since you haven't shown a better view.

wsexson

08-23-05, 02:12 PM

I think that quite a few people are getting entirely too worked up over this guy's videos. The only thing that these guys do on their bikes that I don't see motorists doing every day is driving on the sidewalk. Do they do some dangerous things? No doubt about it. Do they make things worse for the rest of us? Get real!

I don't think that it would help improve the opions of motorists more than a tiny ammount if every single bicycle rider in the United States were to adhere to the letter of the law at all times. The jerks would just use some other reason to complain.

Santaria

08-23-05, 04:03 PM

I swear, and I hate to do it:

http://www.spellcheck.net

For the sake of all things holy, listening to an arguement where half the posters mispell words to the point of making that more important than their actual stated opinion is the bane of all the angels. You'll make Jesus cry. Use spelling clarification software, or the above link. Please. For. The. Small. Children.

CycleMagic

08-23-05, 04:04 PM

Hawkear: easy, boy -or- girl....or, you'll make me fall off my chair! too funny!

all right fellas, don't you think we've beat this dead horse long enough?

skookum

08-23-05, 04:05 PM

The only thing that these guys do on their bikes that I don't see motorists doing every day is driving on the sidewalk.

Really? You have motorists going the wrong way on the street for blocks and blocks, narrowly missing opposing traffic. I'm glad I don't live where you live.

The video is pretty entertaining and has that "rebel without a pause" feel about it, so I can see that it would appeal to the adolescent mind-set of the average bike forums contributor.

I wonder how many dim-wits have been inspired by it and are busy planning their own
drink and ride race. If they get smoked by a car, I guess its no loss to the human race, is it?

roadfix

08-23-05, 04:10 PM

Here's a slight different angle. I snatched this link from the fixed gear forum.

http://www.hk-icycling.net/movie/erl4men.mpg

Treespeed

08-23-05, 04:34 PM

Here's a slight different angle. I snatched this link from the fixed gear forum.

http://www.hk-icycling.net/movie/erl4men.mpg

They're not wearing helmets, what a terrible political statement! Why can't they just obey the law? :rolleyes:

Metieval

08-23-05, 06:15 PM

Well you made it very clear that wouldnt make an attempt to avoid the potential accident and "risk getting your back screwed up" but that you would "aim for the soft spot". Yes i agree that at that point it would be his fault, but if a 11 year old kid ran out in front of your car not at a crosswalk and without looking first it wouldnt be your fault, responsibility, or choice either; but something tells me that you would try to avoid killing someone. Even if it meant potentially wrecking your car and sustaining a few injuries. You should take that as a compliment. I still have hope in the compassion one can feel for the life of a stranger, thats all.

So these guys in the video is 11 years old?? :lol:

You are right that I would avoid killing someone or hurting them. (and have at my own expense) I was southbound on 169 in the twin cities, MN late one night in blinding rain. Out of no where traffic decided to come to a stop. I am watching my mirror as I am stopping, but the person behind me wasn't going to get stopped. Would it have caused a chain reaction and pile up? I don't know but wasn't going to take the chance. So I pulled onto the berm. HOLY CHIT!!!! people was standing there!!!!! I now chose to jump the curb and hit the ditch which was full of electric poles, trees and extremely muddy slick. All said and done the person behind me came within inches of hitting the people on the berm sandwiching them between bumpers. The person behind them almost hit the guy that used to be in front of me. I made 2 split second choices that proved to be ok choices.

My original point was nothing more than trying to prove that breaking the law on a bicycle can put other people in danger. And by them putting me in a position to either run over them or cause an accident ..... It will be them. Yes I would feel bad, but it was their choice.

hypothetically ---- While avoiding a law breaking idiot seeking attention you may further cause an accident that could kill kids.

Do you think the guys in the video would stop and go back if they caused an accident? Obviously not as he had hit somebody head on in the video while riding the wrong way and then fled the scene.

Hopefully these guys never ride in the same city I am in.

rich007

08-23-05, 07:34 PM

Here's a slight different angle. I snatched this link from the fixed gear forum.

http://www.hk-icycling.net/movie/erl4men.mpg

Man, that should be an Olympic sport... like figure skating... Awesome bike handling skills...

As to other stuff said above I agree with Treespeed and weremichael (among all others who said it so skillfully)... I just leave it at that, enough was said already on the topic!

BTW, the NYC messenger race video was better. ;)

randya

08-23-05, 10:34 PM

That sounds like a good reason for riders to not run red lights then. :D

OH and if you haven't figured it out yet. A rider running a red light would be at fault :lol:
:rolleyes:

noisebeam

08-24-05, 10:51 AM

Obviously these are about filming stunts/races, not anything about advocacy. Sure they are skilled and experienced, but they are still pushing their envelopes, to quote from Lucas's description of one of the videos "This race rages through the Bronx, lots of scitching, close calls, and one funny crash – we end careening through a parking lot riding using more luck than skill"
'funny crash', 'using more luck than skill'

So they are avoiding colliding with peds not on skill alone. They find possibly scratching cars, maybe breaking rear view mirrors funny. Are these the same folks that smash a chain lock on a taxi who bumps them? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

As to what many of these guys/gals do for work, yes they may be expected to and/or find it necessary to remain competetive in the business to break traffic laws, but this is not an excuse for continuing to break laws and recklessly and unnceccesaility break laws on off time.

There are stunts that endanger only the stuntee, and then those that endanger unaware parties - the later I find objectionable. Objectionable, but certainly not the worst stuff out there by far.

Frankly I find the videos kinda boring after the first couple of minutes of just one of them. It the same stuff over and over again.

Al

Kyle90

08-24-05, 11:11 AM

Good for you, for feeling aggervated. That must be a new and unique feeling, since I've never heard of it before.
What reasons are these? Physical fitness, fun, saving money, and reducing your impact on the environment are stupid and ignorant? What, pray tell, are your smart and intelligent reasons for cycling?
Personally, I don't be a sissy, either. I don't know who does be a sissy. (sorry, that was painful)
Obviously. Especially since you haven't shown a better view.
Ugh, here we go again.

Aww, you can be a smartass. Bravo!

Yay, Yay, Yay, what? .. I'm so sick of hearing this enviroment bogus. Ultimately, there was a creator of this planet we live on. Therfore, that creator has he power to destroy. If we were a threat to the enviroment, don't you think this creator would have fixed this problem? It isn't our job, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to fix the enviroment and this whole ozone buisness. So I don't care, it don't bother me in the slightest. I'm not one to recycle, I'm not one to care about it. You can say what you wish, you're entitled to your opinion just as I am. Although, you're arrogant and stick to your enviromentalist way of life.

Yes, it's ignorant. Ignorant is the lack of knowing, and in this case the lack of knowing what uses motor vehicles are. First of all, if motor vehicles didn't exist we'd never, ever in a million years be able to acomplish the things we have. You wanna live in a boring, slow way of life? Go to the Amish country. It's stupid for the fact motor vehicles provide what needs to exist. Without them, people would be dying all the time for lack of quick medical assitance. Oh, but you WANT those vehicles.. Just not the everyday person to be able to drive. That's hypocritical. Yes, in this I was assuming because I'm not going to hunt through all your posts to find what your veiws are.

Now, what are my reasons for cycling? So I don't become a fat, unhealthy person whom will die of an ultzer before he's 35. Other then that, I have no other reasons. Now, you tell me. Why should I care about anything other then bettering myself? am I suppose to by some code of ettique to care for someone I know notthing about? Ugh.. It dosen't matter what reason I bike for, just know it's not to help anything other then myself.

Awww.. You're trying to be a smartass again by pointing out my grammar mistake. By that statement, meant if I have a chance at crossing a busy street.. I'm going for it, even if I break laws. They work for someone, and they make money based on their speed. Who in the hell is gonna be a slow safe biker just so they don't indanger themselves? The minute you ride out onto the street from your home, you're in danger. The minute you kill that 40ft gap at the dirt BMX contest, you're in danger. The minuter you rock hop a 5ft gap, you're in danger. It's all danger, that's the thrill, that's what keeps people like me on the bike. The adrenaline rush from just missing a car going 60mph beside me, or killing major jumps in the woods.

The only things these guys did wrong were. 1. Drink 40oz's 2. Cuase a SMALL accident

What is the big deal?

Also, know this. I'm in no way flamming, or getting pissy and doing kindergarden little insults like Hawk tried to pin on me.

Treespeed

08-24-05, 11:43 AM

Ugh, here we go again.

Aww, you can be a smartass. Bravo!

Yay, Yay, Yay, what? .. I'm so sick of hearing this enviroment bogus. Ultimately, there was a creator of this planet we live on. Therfore, that creator has he power to destroy. If we were a threat to the enviroment, don't you think this creator would have fixed this problem? It isn't our job, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to fix the enviroment and this whole ozone buisness. So I don't care, it don't bother me in the slightest. I'm not one to recycle, I'm not one to care about it. You can say what you wish, you're entitled to your opinion just as I am. Although, you're arrogant and stick to your enviromentalist way of life.

Yes, it's ignorant. Ignorant is the lack of knowing, and in this case the lack of knowing what uses motor vehicles are. First of all, if motor vehicles didn't exist we'd never, ever in a million years be able to acomplish the things we have. You wanna live in a boring, slow way of life? Go to the Amish country. It's stupid for the fact motor vehicles provide what needs to exist. Without them, people would be dying all the time for lack of quick medical assitance. Oh, but you WANT those vehicles.. Just not the everyday person to be able to drive. That's hypocritical. Yes, in this I was assuming because I'm not going to hunt through all your posts to find what your veiws are.

Now, what are my reasons for cycling? So I don't become a fat, unhealthy person whom will die of an ultzer before he's 35. Other then that, I have no other reasons. Now, you tell me. Why should I care about anything other then bettering myself? am I suppose to by some code of ettique to care for someone I know notthing about? Ugh.. It dosen't matter what reason I bike for, just know it's not to help anything other then myself.

Awww.. You're trying to be a smartass again by pointing out my grammar mistake. By that statement, meant if I have a chance at crossing a busy street.. I'm going for it, even if I break laws. They work for someone, and they make money based on their speed. Who in the hell is gonna be a slow safe biker just so they don't indanger themselves? The minute you ride out onto the street from your home, you're in danger. The minute you kill that 40ft gap at the dirt BMX contest, you're in danger. The minuter you rock hop a 5ft gap, you're in danger. It's all danger, that's the thrill, that's what keeps people like me on the bike. The adrenaline rush from just missing a car going 60mph beside me, or killing major jumps in the woods.

The only things these guys did wrong were. 1. Drink 40oz's 2. Cuase a SMALL accident

What is the big deal?

Also, know this. I'm in no way flamming, or getting pissy and doing kindergarden little insults like Hawk tried to pin on me.

And folks are worried that if we give equal time to "intelligent design" that the rest of the world might think we're ignorant of things like basic biology and even being able to speak our own language. I was all worried about the environment, but now I can relax, because obviously the creator is going to fix all of our problems. That's a load off of my mind. Now I can get back to the really important things in life, campy or shimano?

chroot

08-24-05, 12:40 PM

Congratulations, Kyle90, your post is the most ridiculous pile of crap I've read on the 'net in weeks.

If we were a threat to the enviroment, don't you think this creator would have fixed this problem? It isn't our job, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to fix the enviroment and this whole ozone buisness.

Let me get this straight: we shouldn't even attempt to reduce our impact on our environment, since the creator would destroy us if we were actually doing something bad.

I'm not even Christian, but even I note that your argument is really stupid. First, the Christian concept of the creator is such that god never stops anyone from doing bad things; he just judges you for your earthly deeds after you die. Second, ethical and spritual implications are far down on the list of justifications for environmental conversation. Most people would prefer not to live on a trash heap, drink polluted water, or eat fish riddled with tumors from pesticide runoff, regardless of whether or not a possibly ficticious creator remains pleased.

First of all, if motor vehicles didn't exist we'd never, ever in a million years be able to acomplish the things we have.

I don't recall anyone saying that all motor vehicles should be destroyed. You are entirely correct that our economy and way of life are directly dependent on shipping vehicles, argricultural vehicles, emergency services vehicles, and so on. No one here (besides you) is arguing in such ridiculous black-and-white extremes. What people commonly argue here is that, for some purposes, a bicycle is just as useful as a private automobile, and sometimes even more so. Since 98% of American car trips are less than two miles and involve no cargo, bicycles cannot be denied as a serious alternative. Futhermore, since American cars are responsible for more than half of our total pollution (producing nearly a pound of CO2 for every mile, while a tree only absorbs only ~600 lbs over its entire lifetime), they cannot be denied as a serious environmental threat.

The moral of the story? Use your SUV when you go white-water rafting with 300 lbs of gear. Use your grocery-getter when you get two weeks of groceries. Use a moving truck when you move; these are all reasonable uses for motor vehicles. Then, pull out your bike when you're going down to Blockbuster to pick up a movie. Save the air a few pounds of CO2. Save the world a half-gallon of gas. Hell, save yourself money by avoiding stop-and-go wear on your car. It's not a black-and-white issue, and gray is gorgeous.

- Warren

weremichael

08-24-05, 12:50 PM

Now I can get back to the really important things in life, campy or shimano?

SHIMANO!!!!!

If you like "intelligent design" you'll love this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

-Michael

Treespeed

08-24-05, 12:57 PM

Warren,

Great reply. I can't tell if Kyle90 is seriously that ignorant or if he's just pulling our chains.

His creator argument reminds me of the old James Watt quote, "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand." This has always seemed like a strange logic, if God did create the world, as these folks believe, why don't they treat it with reverence? Even if you want to argue that all of creation is for the sole benefit of mankind, why use it all up and ruin it for our children? Seems like a strange thought process, the kind of people who don't have enough sense to keep the midden far away from the well.

chroot

08-24-05, 01:05 PM

I agree Treespeed, if one believes a creator gave the gifts of pristine mountain streams, clean air, and oceans teeming with life, why wouldn't one be even more inclined to protect them?

I guess religion is like statistics to most self-described followers: it can be used to argue anything. If you're a peaceful conservationist who goes out of your way to protect the world, God's on your side. If you're an apathetic burden on the rest of the world, apparently God's on your side, too. I guess all you gotta do is go to church every now and then, eh?

- Warren

Kyle90

08-24-05, 01:11 PM

nolageek

08-24-05, 01:21 PM

I hope that guy gets run over

i hope you get run over

I hope I get run over.

:)

skookum

08-24-05, 01:22 PM

Some serious thread drift here...

His creator argument reminds me of the old James Watt quote, "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand

Watt didn't actually say that, what he said was:

That is the delicate balance the Secretary of the Interior must have: to be steward for the natural resources for this generation as well as future generations. I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns; whatever it is we have to manage with a skill to leave the resources needed for future generations." -- James G. Watt, testimony before the House Interior Committee, February 1981

which was parapharased as:

We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand." -- interpretation of the above testimony by Austin Miles, Setting the Captives Free

Okay I am being pedantic here, excuse me.

I think we should all do what we can to preserve the environment, obviously that varies from person to person. How that relates to drunken yobbos breaking every known traffic law, I can't really say.

Treespeed

08-24-05, 01:36 PM

Ahem. I was using it as an example. All in all, I don't care one single bit about the enviroment. It's impossible to fix, and it's impossible to prevent anything. Forests are still being cleared, polutution is still at large.. I don't care. Y'all keep thinking you know everything though.

You hunt and fish, and you don't care about the environment? I don't think anyone here claimed to know everything, but you just aren't making any sense and I think we're all trying to figure out if you're really as stupid as you seem. You admit that there is clear cutting and pollution, but then you argue that there is nothing we can do. Which is it, is there no environmental degradation, is environmental degradation the will of your creator, or are we pawns without free will who are destined to pollute our own world? I don't think you've thought any of this through and there is certainly a lot that can be done to reduce and reverse human environmental damage. Maybe you should educate yourself on the topic a bit instead of closing your eyes to the scientific reality of global warming and other human caused environmental catastrophes. You admonished someone in an ealier thread to, "Read a book." I would suggest the same advice to you Kyle.

I would reccomend, "Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold, a fellow hunter and fisherman who also argues for wildland conservation.

Treespeed

08-24-05, 01:47 PM

Some serious thread drift here...

I think we should all do what we can to preserve the environment, obviously that varies from person to person. How that relates to drunken yobbos breaking every known traffic law, I can't really say.

Yes, serious hijack, and I apologize. Though I think my comparison of Kyle's argument and the main idea of Watt's quote are still valid. This isn't the place to argue these points, but that sort of idiotic logic is very frustrating to me. I have a child on the way and I hate the idea of only being able to show my child the natural wonders of the world in a book. I'm an atheist, but I don't remember anything in Christ's message about take as much as you can get and leave the mess for your children, but I haven't been to church in some time so maybe I missed something.

chroot

08-24-05, 01:47 PM

All in all, I don't care one single bit about the enviroment. It's impossible to fix, and it's impossible to prevent anything. Forests are still being cleared, polutution is still at large.. I don't care.
Every bulldozer, chainsaw, and automobile I've ever seen had off-switches. Birth control is readily available to a large majority of the world's population (thankfully the population in many European nations and Japan is now declining as a result).

I can't even fathom how someone can say "it's impossible to do anything about the environment" with a straight face, since it's just mind-bogglingly stupid. Of course, there's not much that one single individual can really do to save the entire planet, but, en masse, we are the effectors of whatever environmental change we collectively choose to make, for good or for worse.

- Warren

Hawkear

08-24-05, 01:51 PM

Ugh, here we go again.

Aww, you can be a smartass. Bravo! Thanks, My ego is |-----THIS----| much bigger due to your compliments.

Yay, Yay, Yay, what? .. I'm so sick of hearing this enviroment bogus.What environment bogus? Weren't you the one who brought it up? Are you even in the right thread?

Ultimately, there was a creator of this planet we live on. Therfore, that creator has he power to destroy. If we were a threat to the enviroment, don't you think this creator would have fixed this problem? It isn't our job, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to fix the enviroment and this whole ozone buisness. So I don't care, it don't bother me in the slightest.
Maybe mommy can fix all your booboos with a kiss, too. You believe there is a creator that either wants things the way they are, or will fix things if they get out of hand. Good for you. Keep your head in the sand, and join the rest of the fundies. The rest of us will learn to rationally deal with the world.

I'm not one to recycle, I'm not one to care about it. You can say what you wish, you're entitled to your opinion just as I am.Good for you? I guess?

[qutoe]Although, you're arrogant and stick to your enviromentalist way of life.[/quote]Whoa! Slow down! Who said I have an environmentalist way of life? Did you make that up?

Yes, it's ignorant. Ignorant is the lack of knowing, and in this case the lack of knowing what uses motor vehicles are. First of all, if motor vehicles didn't exist we'd never, ever in a million years be able to acomplish the things we have. You wanna live in a boring, slow way of life? Go to the Amish country. It's stupid for the fact motor vehicles provide what needs to exist. Without them, people would be dying all the time for lack of quick medical assitance. Oh, but you WANT those vehicles.. Just not the everyday person to be able to drive. That's hypocritical. Yes, in this I was assuming because I'm not going to hunt through all your posts to find what your veiws are.
Why would you think I am ignorant of the uses of motor vehicles? Did you have to reach really far to pull that diatribe out of your butt, because I have no idea where it came from.

Now, what are my reasons for cycling? So I don't become a fat, unhealthy person whom will die of an ultzer before he's 35. Other then that, I have no other reasons. Now, you tell me. Why should I care about anything other then bettering myself? am I suppose to by some code of ettique to care for someone I know notthing about? Ugh.. It dosen't matter what reason I bike for, just know it's not to help anything other then myself.Well, first off, I don't know of anyone that will be dieing of an "ultzer", so you don't need to worry about that. Bettering yourself is a wonderful reason to ride a bike. I never implied that any reason is superior to another.

Awww.. You're trying to be a smartass again by pointing out my grammar mistake. Wasn't it fun, though?

Who in the hell is gonna be a slow safe biker just so they don't indanger themselves?Maybe some people are more concerned about self-preservation than speed? Have you given that thought any consideration?

The minute you ride out onto the street from your home, you're in danger. The minute you kill that 40ft gap at the dirt BMX contest, you're in danger. The minuter you rock hop a 5ft gap, you're in danger. It's all danger, that's the thrill, that's what keeps people like me on the bike. The adrenaline rush from just missing a car going 60mph beside me, or killing major jumps in the woods.Danger is everywhere, I agree. One can learn to cope with it and embrace it, or live in their parents' basement in fear. Some people chose to reduce their danger by riding in a safer manner, and that's their personal choice. Others choose to ignore danger, and go as fast as they can, and that's fine for them.

The only things these guys did wrong were. 1. Drink 40oz's 2. Cuase a SMALL accident

What is the big deal?It's not a big deal. Some people like to say that videos like this and alleycats are what outsiders see cyclists as, and think that these are poor ambassadors to the rest of the world. I personally don't care. I would like to see people riding in a safe manner, but if they don't, I'm not going to make fun of them or berate them. It's their choice. If they get caught breaking the law, or injured in a collision they caused, I hope they're prepared to deal with the consequences of that choice.

Also, know this. I'm in no way flamming, or getting pissy and doing kindergarden little insults like Hawk tried to pin on me.Kindergarden insults? No, I didn't call you a poopy pants, I just poked your ribs a little. I think you need to grow some thicker skin, and hit the "Preview Post" button before you post.

noisebeam

08-24-05, 02:03 PM

, polutution is still at large.. I don't care.

Overall you (un)awareness is astonishing and saddening. Many changes have resulted in improvement and many more can continue to help.

For example, there have been great improvements made to water quality and air quality in many parts of the US in the last several decades. There used to be some rivers in the northeast that had no animal life and were hazardous to swim in let alone drink that are now much much cleaner due to enviromental regulation and compliance. Sure there are also areas where things have gotten worse. But if nothing had been done and no efforts had been made over the decades, then everything would be sickeningly bad right now, literally.

(I know I haven't referenced which rivers and supporting data, but some research I can do can back this up, I just don't have the time at the moment - call me on it if you like and I can follow-up with specifics)

Another thing to consider is that the enviroment is the very place you live in - it is not just some abstraction of fields and streams in some remote forest, actually it is everything around you, natural and not. How one can not care and give up on everything around them is beyond me.

OK, heres a tidbit: http://policy.house.gov/html/news_item.cfm?id=15
***** and moan all you want about it comming from some extreme liberal tree hugging organization if you like. ;)

Al