Stupidity on Two Wheels

[nolageek]

No, I didn't call you a poopy pants, I just poked your ribs a little. I think you need to grow some thicker skin, and hit the "Preview Post" button before you post.

Spellcheck button wouldn't hurt either. :eek:

[noisebeam]

I can't believe what I just watched. I hate cyclists like that! It makes all of us who enjoy riding look like jerks. They were endangering themselves, and motorists as well.
Don't forget pedestrians, the most at risk for serious injury as a result of their 'luck' not going as well as hoped.

Al

[Placid Casual]

I swear, and I hate to do it:

http://www.spellcheck.net

For the sake of all things holy, listening to an arguement where half the posters mispell words to the point of making that more important than their actual stated opinion is the bane of all the angels.

Listening to a what, now?

[Nicodemus]

I can't believe you're all bellyaching about the video with not one word about that godawful cheeseball Top Gun-style soundtrack. Truly awful.

Okay, back to your bickering, people.

[va_cyclist]

Well, first off, I don't know of anyone that will be dieing of an "ultzer", so you don't need to worry about that.

I believe the word you're looking for is "dying". Remember that old saying about glass houses...

[noisebeam]

I can't believe you're all bellyaching about the video with not one word about that godawful cheeseball Top Gun-style soundtrack. Truly awful.

Okay, back to your bickering, people.
Yep, cheezy it is. Volume control is ones friend. But then again as I said above, I find the videos tedious after the first couple minutes.

Al

[Hawkear]

I believe the word you're looking for is "dying". Remember that old saying about glass houses...
Aw crap. You pegged me, and it stings. Please forgive me, oh internet gods!

Of course, that's one mistake to his dozens.

[va_cyclist]

Wow, no one ever called me an internet god before. I like the sound of that.

[operator]

This thread needs a lock.
Fact is, it was a cool video. Would you ride like that everyday? No. Do they ride like that everyday? No.

[chill_]

My personal favorite is bio-web.mgb. My highlights: ~2:10, talking about taking his bike pulling a couch on the freeway, and weaving back and forth, over double yellow, onto sidewalk. At ~5:10, they ran into a car. Lucas removes licence plate from his vehicle, tells the car owner he has insurance, gives false information to driver, and leaves.

[Treespeed]

This thread needs a lock.
Fact is, it was a cool video. Would you ride like that everyday? No. Do they ride like that everyday? No.

Actually if they're messengers, except for the drinking, they probably do ride like that everyday.
Without causing a single accident or hitting any peds.

[gnz]

I can't believe you're all bellyaching about the video with not one word about that godawful cheeseball Top Gun-style soundtrack.It was the actual Top Gun soundtrack and it meant to be cheesy, you see, he was being chased by this car he slammed to earlier so he was in the "Danger Zone". I found the soundtrack quite cool actually, specially for the NYC video, "welcome to the jungle", there just couldn't be a better choice.


Okay, back to your bickering, people.Yes thats right and Im doing so right now! cya

[noisebeam]

Without causing a single accident or hitting any peds.
Are you sure about this? I know my friend who has lived in NYC his whole life was hit by a messenger lookin cyclist when he was legally crossing a x-walk and knocked over. He particlary dispises bikes because of this and it comes up when I encourage him to try cycling. I also know I've read stories about messengers involved in accidents, many perhaps not their fault, but can you be sure that none have been at fault? Oh, did you watch the videos, I saw at least two accidents caused by the riders. why do you assume when they are not racing they don't bump into cars with right of way or bend off taxi driver mirrors?

Al

[Kyle90]

You hunt and fish, and you don't care about the environment? I don't think anyone here claimed to know everything, but you just aren't making any sense and I think we're all trying to figure out if you're really as stupid as you seem. You admit that there is clear cutting and pollution, but then you argue that there is nothing we can do. Which is it, is there no environmental degradation, is environmental degradation the will of your creator, or are we pawns without free will who are destined to pollute our own world? I don't think you've thought any of this through and there is certainly a lot that can be done to reduce and reverse human environmental damage. Maybe you should educate yourself on the topic a bit instead of closing your eyes to the scientific reality of global warming and other human caused environmental catastrophes. You admonished someone in an ealier thread to, "Read a book." I would suggest the same advice to you Kyle.

I would reccomend, "Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold, a fellow hunter and fisherman who also argues for wildland conservation. Correct, I hunt and I fish, I hike and a I do a bunch of other stuff too. I don't care about the air, rather. I don't care about a Mack truck blowing black smoke out his exhuast pipes after pulling out of Glasscock. LoL.. If I were stupid, then I wouldn't be able to understand what's being read, which I do, that's thrown out the window. Of course there is clear cutting, their destroying a small wooded area where I used to explore as we speak to build some warehouse. They are also probably going to ruin the PeeDee area.. These *******s are also cutting down trees near the i-95 bridge to build a strip of condos. All down the banks to the right of the bridge..

Maybe I am being a bit hypocrtical. I am saying I am not gonna go up to someone who drives a car and say "Hey!! You should ride a bike and stop using fossil fuel to get to places 50 miles away!" or "Hey!! You should ride your bike to the store and get 1 day supply of food!!" Becuase that in a nutshell, exactly what you people keep blabbering. What I'm saying is I'm not gonna be the person who runs in a forest and stands in front of a 5 ton chainsaw operated by a big spider looking machine. Sure, I'd like the woodland areas to stay, and the cool animals who live in them. It's just impossible to do so, no matter what you come up with. I also don't care to educate myself in something that bores the hell out of me.

[Treespeed]

Are you sure about this? I know my friend who has lived in NYC his whole life was hit by a messenger lookin cyclist when he was legally crossing a x-walk and knocked over. He particlary dispises bikes because of this and it comes up when I encourage him to try cycling. I also know I've read stories about messengers involved in accidents, many perhaps not their fault, but can you be sure that none have been at fault? Oh, did you watch the videos, I saw at least two accidents caused by the riders. why do you assume when they are not racing they don't bump into cars with right of way or bend off taxi driver mirrors?

Al

Okay, I shouldn't have been so definitive. I guess what I'm trying to say is that most of the posters here don't ride in this kind of urban traffic so they don't realize how skilled these riders are. Yes, there are accidents, but many of the very safe and prudent riders on these forums also get into accidents and they never ride like the folks in these videos. So I guess I'm just defensive when folks see a couple of accidents and then jump to the conclusion that these folks are riding unsafely. I'm sure that if we all had video cameras following us around when we were riding we wouldn't much care for public commentary on the results, or more appropriately when we were driving.

I think as a messenger I was more cautious than most, but you still have to split lanes and run the light to make your deliveries on time. It's just a fact of life. Though for me I would only run lights that were clear and trust me you don't want to hit a mirror at speed, because they don't break, they just leave nasty bruises. Sometimes you do smack a car with the flat of your hand because it makes a noise and most drivers stop and wake up out of their fog and actually look at what they are doing. This second is usually all it takes to get around the car safely and rarely dents a car. And finally I didn't see any peds get hit in any of these videos. It looked to me like they were weaving through them at little over walking speeds as cyclists are quite vulnerable to peds. If you piss of the wrong person all they have to do is push and down you go.

I am sure that many messenger accidents have been the fault of the messenger, that innocent people have been injured, and I know of one food delivery rider in NYC who killed someone. But I would bet that not a single car occupant has ever been killed or even injured by a cyclist. But I also know of peds who have caused accidents by jaywalking and was involved in just such an accident myself. I haven't given up walking as a result of that accident and I would hope that people would have enough sense to not base their perception of cycling on the small messenger subsegment of the cycling population. These people are doing a job and it is not their responsibility to represent the cycling population at large.

[Treespeed]

Correct, I hunt and I fish, I hike and a I do a bunch of other stuff too. I don't care about the air, rather. I don't care about a Mack truck blowing black smoke out his exhuast pipes after pulling out of Glasscock. LoL.. If I were stupid, then I wouldn't be able to understand what's being read, which I do, that's thrown out the window. Of course there is clear cutting, their destroying a small wooded area where I used to explore as we speak to build some warehouse. They are also probably going to ruin the PeeDee area.. These *******s are also cutting down trees near the i-95 bridge to build a strip of condos. All down the banks to the right of the bridge..

Maybe I am being a bit hypocrtical. I am saying I am not gonna go up to someone who drives a car and say "Hey!! You should ride a bike and stop using fossil fuel to get to places 50 miles away!" or "Hey!! You should ride your bike to the store and get 1 day supply of food!!" Becuase that in a nutshell, exactly what you people keep blabbering. What I'm saying is I'm not gonna be the person who runs in a forest and stands in front of a 5 ton chainsaw operated by a big spider looking machine. Sure, I'd like the woodland areas to stay, and the cool animals who live in them. It's just impossible to do so, no matter what you come up with. I also don't care to educate myself in something that bores the hell out of me.

Well Kyle it looks like you are very much aware of the degradation going on around you. But I think you are mistaking the kind of advocacy some of us are advocating. You have given some very extreme examples, but what I would suggest instead would at least educating yourself locally about politicians that share your conservation views and voting for them. I don't think any viable politicians are going to be putting themselves between bulldozers and a forest. Nor is anyone suggesting that you do so, or assault drivers with environmental rhetoric.

The only reason I suggested you read a book is that there seems to be a fundamental disconnect between your anti-environmental stance and your true feelings. Especially when you refer to clear cutters as, "*******s." I would only suggest that you aren't as far away from some of the other posters as you might imagine on this issue.

[Kyle90]

Well Kyle it looks like you are very much aware of the degradation going on around you. But I think you are mistaking the kind of advocacy some of us are advocating. You have given some very extreme examples, but what I would suggest instead would at least educating yourself locally about politicians that share your conservation views and voting for them. I don't think any viable politicians are going to be putting themselves between bulldozers and a forest. Nor is anyone suggesting that you do so, or assault drivers with environmental rhetoric.

The only reason I suggested you read a book is that there seems to be a fundamental disconnect between your anti-environmental stance and your true feelings. Especially when you refer to clear cutters as, "*******s." I would only suggest that you aren't as far away from some of the other posters as you might imagine on this issue. Of course I give extreme examples, I don't sugarcoat what I think.. Some say it's good while others get all offended. Now, I know you did not just tell me to look for politicians.. You've gotta be kidding me, conservtion is the least of their worries here. Plus, me being 15 they wouldn't even take me seriously, and I can't nor will I ever vote. The only land I care anything for is the land around the lakes where I fish, the woods that I hunt at and the Amazon and other rain forests with cool exotic creatures. other then that.. they can go nuts..

[Treespeed]

Oh, you're 15 that explains everything. Sorry for troubling you. Though I hope you change your mind some day about the voting.

[mac]

I hope that guy gets run over
I second that. These guys are endangering other motorists, cyclists, and pedestrians exactly like a drunk driver would. I don't shed a tear when a drunk driver kills himself nor would I if some nut on a bicycle did the same thing. If someone drove a car like that - running lights, driving in opposite directions - he'd get arrested and thrown in jail for reckless driving. It's the same thing with these cyslists.

All it takes is for one car to swerve and hit & kill a pedestrian and all the fun & games are over. These guys even played chicken with an 18-wheeler riding the wrong way in his lane! Those trucks are already dangerous as it is - we don't need them unnecessarily swerving just so this a-hole can get his rocks off.

These a-holes are exactly like the "4x4 let's go monster trucking in city streets" or the Ricers drag-racing their fart-cans down the street. Just because he's on a bicycle doesn't cut him any slack or make him "one of us."

[Hawkear]

nor will I ever vote.What do you hope to gain by never voting? I hope you end up taking a government class in high school, so you can be a little more informed about what you're talking about.

[chroot]

Arguments from extremes are rarely useful, Kyle90. I don't think anyone here has ever faulted someone for using a car to travel to another state, or to carry 200 lbs of groceries. I also don't recall anyone saying that the only possible way to help the environment is to strap yourself to a tree in front of a chainsaw somewhere in the rain forest. If this is really what you think people here are advocating, you honestly need to read a bit more carefully.

Let me make it a bit more clear:

A person who walks across a room to drop a soda can into a recycle bin is an environmentalist.
A person who chooses not to litter is an environmentalist.
A person who chooses to ride their bike two miles to pick up some Chinese take-out is an environmentalist.
A person who buys an energy-efficient car or refridgerator is an environmentalist.
A person who chooses to use public transportation -- even if only when it's convenient -- is an environmentalist.
A person who recognizes that there are often (not always!) alternatives to automobile transportation is an environmentalist.
A person who is upset about a development company destroying their pristine hometown river is an environmentalist.

You're 15, which unfortunately explains a lot about your posts. I'm glad that you're here, though, as you'll definitely gain respect for different views here. There are different levels of environmentalism, ranging from the trivial (dropping a soda can in a recycle bin) all the way to the devotion of one's life. It's not all black and white -- start looking at the shades of gray. Even if all you'll ever actively do for the environment is to recycle that soda can, I applaud you, and welcome you to the club.

- Warren

[Brian]

I'm still trying to figure out why Treespeed feels he needs to be the spokesperson for this group of idiots on bikes.

[noisebeam]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that most of the posters here don't ride in this kind of urban traffic so they don't realize how skilled these riders are.

So I guess I'm just defensive when folks see a couple of accidents and then jump to the conclusion that these folks are riding unsafely.

And finally I didn't see any peds get hit in any of these videos.

But I also know of peds who have caused accidents by jaywalking and was involved in just such an accident myself.

These people are doing a job and it is not their responsibility to represent the cycling population at large.
Messengers (at least not newbie ones) are skilled, no doubt. Some of that skill is not only physical/reaction, but knowing patterns, where cars go, where peds go, etc. But I will argue that these off-job messengers were using more than just skill, it is even admitted on the web site that luck is involved. For example, luck that a ped is not around a blind corner they take.
Accidents or not it is clear from the video that they are intentionally riding unsafely, intentionally pushing the limits of their skills. They did not have to ride wrong way on a free flowing busy street, the other side was also clear and not jammed, they did not have to cross a intersection that was not clear, relying on the x-traffic to yield out of human instinct. This was part of the race game, sure some of this can and is done on the job, but I'm sure the envelope is pushed harder for the filmed race which means the behavior is reckless. As to state the obvious they did not have to drink and cycle.
I'd bet if a pedestrian was hit or fell from the surprise it wouldn't be shown. Sure peds jay walk, but how is that different than messengers running a red light? Maybe the pedestrian was on the job making a foot delivery or getting to work. Part of safe riding is not relying on everyone else to follow the rules.

But finally, these people are NOT doing their job, they are off the job and having fun. Or does having a job where you are expected to bend the rules mean that when you are off the job you have the green light to bend them with recklessness to show how bad assed you are?

Finally to be clear, it is reckless objectionable behavior as I've said in above posts. But I understand it and have some level of tollerance for objectionable behavior. ;) I guess my point is I'd be fine if the defenders of the videos acknowledged it is 'bad', but admitted they are OK with 'bad' instead of defending it as skilled behavior.

Al

[Treespeed]

I'm still trying to figure out why Treespeed feels he needs to be the spokesperson for this group of idiots on bikes.

I'm not their spokesperson, I'm expressing my opinion. Which is what I thought these forums were about, opinion and discussion. Plus I was a messenger for 7 years and have been commuting by bike for over 20 years so I thought my opinion might be somewhat valid as opposed to folks whose only addition is to label someone an idiot.

[noisebeam]

label someone an idiot.
Anyone who drinks and cycles agressively in dense urban traffic while breaking nearly every traffic rule out there just for the sake of a game is being an idiot.

But who said there is anything wrong with being an idiot? Lots of good people have done intentionally idiotic things in their lives.

Al

[Brian]

I'm not their spokesperson, I'm expressing my opinion. Which is what I thought these forums were about, opinion and discussion. Plus I was a messenger for 7 years and have been commuting by bike for over 20 years so I thought my opinion might be somewhat valid as opposed to folks whose only addition is to label someone an idiot.

Ok, you've got all the answers. What word should I use for someone that rides a bike under the influence of alcohol, rides on the wrong side of the road, terrorizes pedestrians, runs red lights, and nearly causes a prime mover to have an accident while attempting to flee the scene of a collision in which he was at fault?

I suppose "Idiot" is actually generous in this case.

[Treespeed]

Finally to be clear, it is reckless objectionable behavior as I've said in above posts. But I understand it and have some level of tollerance for objectionable behavior. ;) I guess my point is I'd be fine if the defenders of the videos acknowledged it is 'bad', but admitted they are OK with 'bad' instead of defending it as skilled behavior.

Al

I think that is a more than fair criticism, and even though I'm not anyone's spokesperson.
:D I would bet that in a sober moment some of those guys would admit their riding is objectionable.
I for one was admiring the skill and I guess a little nostalgic for the good old days.

[Treespeed]

Ok, you've got all the answers. What word should I use for someone that rides a bike under the influence of alcohol, rides on the wrong side of the road, terrorizes pedestrians, runs red lights, and nearly causes a prime mover to have an accident while attempting to flee the scene of a collision in which he was at fault?

I suppose "Idiot" is actually generous in this case.

Yes, but an idiot with great bike handling skills :D

[Brian]

Yes, but an idiot with great bike handling skills :D

Just when I thought this was going south, I'm starting to think maybe you're not so bad. How about we agree to disagree on the rest of the matter? I don't see any brilliant bike hadnling skills from them - they'll have to pilot my tandem in crowds/traffic before they can earn my respect.

[Treespeed]

You post a video of you blazing through some urban traffic, obeying all traffic regulations of course, and I'll be the first to sing its praises. I've always had a ton of empathy for tandem couples where the captain is a little gonzo and the wife as the poor stoker just has to hang on for dear life.

And yeah, I'm really not so bad, just a bit of a blowhard sometimes. Much more law abiding and good natured than I let on.

[Santaria]

Placid,

What? what.

*head explodes in confusion*

Other than that, this thread hit some oil, took a 25 mph slide into oncoming traffic and hasn't recovered since. Scary.

[Kyle90]

What do you hope to gain by never voting? I hope you end up taking a government class in high school, so you can be a little more informed about what you're talking about. ....You're an idiot.

[noisebeam]

....You're an idiot.
As long as he has good bike handling skills, he's a good idiot though.

Actually he is far from an idiot. He is being very kind and helpful. It is too bad you feel like you have zero control, zero ability to influence your community, the world, your environment around you. I know that will change, hopefully when it does you will learn how to influence things for the better.

Al

[Hawkear]

....You're an idiot.
Thanks. I love you, too. Will you marry me?

Kiddo, you need to grow up and get a clue. Until then, don't go around calling people idiots when you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Santaria]

As long as he has good bike handling skills, he's a good idiot though.

Actually he is far from an idiot. He is being very kind and helpful. It is too bad you feel like you have zero control, zero ability to influence your community, the world, your environment around you. I know that will change, hopefully when it does you will learn how to influence things for the better.

Al

Come on Noisebeam, your misleading the kid. Kyle, your absolutely right - everybody is stupid but you because at 15, you've got it all figured out. Now, when you have to be responsible, pay taxes and live in the world you don't give a **** about on your own - maybe you'll forget everything you've learned and realize that your gonna be one unhappy person if you feel like your just a hapless victim to everybody else's wants, desires and goals.

*Waddles off*

[weremichael]

I can't believe you're all bellyaching about the video with not one word about that godawful cheeseball Top Gun-style soundtrack. Truly awful.

Okay, back to your bickering, people.


Leave Kenny Loggins ALONE, damnit!

[rigid4life]

Did anyone else notice that whenever he passes a police car, the video almost always (except for that one time in that one video where the car was parked on the other side of the street) cuts out? I don't think it's because the video tape always runs out at that moment. I found these videos to be pretty funny and exciting overall, but I definitely would never do something like that.

[Metieval]

Did anyone else notice that whenever he passes a police car, the video almost always (except for that one time in that one video where the car was parked on the other side of the street) cuts out? I don't think it's because the video tape always runs out at that moment. I found these videos to be pretty funny and exciting overall, but I definitely would never do something like that.


In the video posted here. I did notice that he cut out part of the hit and run car chasing him. It does make a person wonder what he cut out of those videos and why.

[Brian]

You post a video of you blazing through some urban traffic, obeying all traffic regulations of course, and I'll be the first to sing its praises. I've always had a ton of empathy for tandem couples where the captain is a little gonzo and the wife as the poor stoker just has to hang on for dear life.

My wife loves to go fast when we're off-road. On the street, she doesn't like it when we hit 60 going down hills, and she has little faith in most of the drivers where we live. But when we do big group rides and get boxed in by other riders, even at speed, she just keeps smiling and pedalling. We don't have many lights to worry about running, but it does get sketchy in roundabouts.

[gpljr75]

In light of the conciliatory tone being struck on the part of some here, let me say to you, Treespeed, that I got particularly hot under the collar toward you the other day, and even though I strenuously objected to the things you were saying at the time, I have not felt good about the mockery I used in reponse (for some reason, irrate mockery was flowing easily that day). Sorry about the impeccable bit.

I'm glad to see that after watching the videos you do see some objectionable behavior there. But let me challenge you further: Whether or not they are messengers by day, AND whether or not it can be argued that in the case of an individual messenger performing his job, certain technically unlawful riding styles can be justified in the bigger picture (I'm still not entirely convinced of this, but I'm granting it here for the sake of argument), the people in these videos are not operating in that capacity; they are racing in groups under the influence of alcohol. So my challenge is this: Why not come out and unambiguously object to what you're seeing here? As a former messenger, and as a serious poster to these forums, your objection would have credibility to some who might otherwise praise (or try!) this stuff for no good reason.

Given your background as a serious urban rider, I can see how you wouldn't want others to fail to appreciate urban riding skills. But in this context, when there is clearly objectionable behavior, praising them for their skills tends to deflate the force of your objection. You can whomp on me for my allegedly strained analogies, but here goes: Imagine Kyle90 objecting to the clear-cutting at his hunting grounds, and then saying, "Yeah, but those guys sure can wield a chainsaw." To qualify the objection like that diminishes it too much, in my view.

[Magictofu]

Around here, most of the kinds of behaviour that we can see in these movies are produced by young men in their modified cars. They, also, think they are part of some kind of counter culture and love the thrills of rule breaking, speed and danger.

Since everything is political, I don't see why you could not portray either groups (the motorized ones and the non-motorized ones) as being politically active in the way they drive (and 'fetishize') their vehicle. I have to agree with bikiola on the fact that such more or less radical acts can have a certain impacts on the creation of a car-free counter culture... On the other side I am not sure that these bikers wrote a manifesto before racing in these busy streets.

It doesn't mean however, that this type of race and driving is a socially beneficial! As was pointed out by many posters here, the behaviour of these cyclists put the lives of many people (including themselves) at risk. I've just read a few articles about the number of pedestrians being hit by bicycles in Montreal... these accidents are no laughing business!

In other word, I don't know what to think about what we see in these clips ;-)

[Treespeed]

Thinking.... Hmmm.

Don't worry about getting hot under the collar.
I rarely get angry about the forums unless it's regarding issues of hate or intolerance, and logical fallacies just get me a little wound up sometimes. Anyways, I see your analogy, but the only flaw I see there is that I wouldn't get mad at the loggers as they are just working for someone else. Just like when police crack down on CM, they get their marching orders from above.

Though the obvious reply to that is well the messengers aren't getting any orders from above, they're being jerks on their own time by their own volition. Which is a fair criticism. The only reply I have to that is that messengering is a very hard and stressful job. Yes, they choose it, but still these folks put their lives on the line every day for nothing more than a paycheck and the glory of quickly pushing paper across town. Most sane folks do the cost/benefit analysis and realize they can make the same amount of money behind a desk with little risk of being hit by a car during their workday. So the job attracts folks of a different and anti-authoritarian mindset (in my experience.) So anything I say is not going to affect alleycat races or messenger drinking and drug use one bit.

What I felt when I rode through Seattle I had a very propietary sense of the city and I knew the limits of my abilities even when breaking laws. To pedestrians and car drivers it may have looked like I was out of control, but that wasn't the case. But the inherent problem is that most bystanders don't know that so they are scared and angry.

The truth is as long as there is a demand for their services there will be messengers careening through most urban cores. Most of these folks never get a chance to ride together, and whether they film them or not these races will still occur and no amount of chastizing on these forums will change that. Heck even the little kids who can barely skateboard are making films of themselves. The films are really for other messengers and not so much for the general public. I would imagine that the creators would have very little interest in the dialogue printed here, even my voluminous defense.

[swifferman]

Ya know, not to be mean or anything, but I was hoping at least one of the cyclists died. Preferably the cameraman.

But from what I've heard of American drivers, I'm surprised only one person really had an encounter with him. Albeit it was an awesome encounter involving attempted vehicular homicide!

EDIT: No matter which way you slice it my post is mean! Uh oh!

Perhaps I feel an unnecessary amount of retribution is because typically in Canada a tremendous amount of allowance is given to cyclists and maybe, just maybe with the influx of cyclists like these that allowance may dwindle :(

EDIT 2: Sorry for my use of hyperbole. Please don't take me away to exaggeration-traz. Thank you.

[Treespeed]

Ya know, not to be mean or anything, but I was hoping at least one of the cyclists died. Preferably the cameraman.

But from what I've heard of American drivers, I'm surprised only one person really had an encounter with him. Albeit it was an awesome encounter involving attempted vehicular homicide!

Why would saying someone deserves to die for running a red light be considered mean? Obviously you are a thoughtful and sensitive person who puts other's needs before their own sick voyeuristic pleasure.

[swifferman]

Why would saying someone deserves to die for running a red light be considered mean? Obviously you are a thoughtful and sensitive person who puts other's needs before their own sick voyeuristic pleasure.

Well...I was pretty much joking.

P.S. Your masterful use of sarcasm helps convey your post's meaning to me in a non-defensive manner.

Thanks

[Brian]

[snip] The only reply I have to that is that messengering is a very hard and stressful job. Yes, they choose it, but still these folks put their lives on the line every day for nothing more than a paycheck and the glory of quickly pushing paper across town. [snip]

I have to ask again - do you really think the guys in this video have that many other job opportunities available to them?

[Treespeed]

I have to ask again - do you really think the guys in this video have that many other job opportunities available to them?

Actually I think that they do. Most of the messengers that I have known are over educated, but they choose the messenger gig because of the freedom it offers. I have known many grad and doctorate students and graduates who just want to ride a bike while they figure out what they're going to do for the rest of their lives. Plus I've known quite a few ex-military from a Marine sniper to an Army medic, and I was a former Tanker right after high school. It's just a cool job without a boss breathing down your neck or a dress code. Very non alienating and straight forward work. I was never that afraid of getting hit, the invincibility of youth, but you spend so much time in elevators that I started to get a real phobia after getting stuck a couple of times and also having them drop a couple of floors when the building is swaying.
:( Freaking scary.

[genec]

LOL

Not related to the subject at hand... but to Treespeed...

"Tanker?"

RE ex-military as messengers... I was a PediCab driver right after my stint in the Navy... Was a nice way to ride all day, have fun meeting people and kick back until college started.

It was a blast.

[gpljr75]

Thinking.... Hmmm.

Don't worry about getting hot under the collar.
I rarely get angry about the forums unless it's regarding issues of hate or intolerance, and logical fallacies just get me a little wound up sometimes. Anyways, I see your analogy, but the only flaw I see there is that I wouldn't get mad at the loggers as they are just working for someone else. Just like when police crack down on CM, they get their marching orders from above.

Though the obvious reply to that is well the messengers aren't getting any orders from above, they're being jerks on their own time by their own volition. Which is a fair criticism. The only reply I have to that is that messengering is a very hard and stressful job. Yes, they choose it, but still these folks put their lives on the line every day for nothing more than a paycheck and the glory of quickly pushing paper across town. Most sane folks do the cost/benefit analysis and realize they can make the same amount of money behind a desk with little risk of being hit by a car during their workday. So the job attracts folks of a different and anti-authoritarian mindset (in my experience.) So anything I say is not going to affect alleycat races or messenger drinking and drug use one bit.

What I felt when I rode through Seattle I had a very propietary sense of the city and I knew the limits of my abilities even when breaking laws. To pedestrians and car drivers it may have looked like I was out of control, but that wasn't the case. But the inherent problem is that most bystanders don't know that so they are scared and angry.

The truth is as long as there is a demand for their services there will be messengers careening through most urban cores. Most of these folks never get a chance to ride together, and whether they film them or not these races will still occur and no amount of chastizing on these forums will change that. Heck even the little kids who can barely skateboard are making films of themselves. The films are really for other messengers and not so much for the general public. I would imagine that the creators would have very little interest in the dialogue printed here, even my voluminous defense.

Well, I'm still going to hold out hope that one of these days I'm going to open up one of these forums and see a new thread by Treespeed titled "Why I think messenging is a good thing but oppose the digave videos" or something like that.:rolleyes: To be honest, the reason for your reluctance to make a clear statement of opposition to what we see in these videos is a little puzzling to me. On other matters, you seem willing to make a stand even though there is very little chance your chastisement in these forums or the disruption of a CM ride, etc. will make one bit of difference about who is the president or what is happening to the environment. Yet here, where you have the opportunity to speak as a senior peer, you decide not to because you say it won't make a difference. Why are you willing to be an idealist in one context but only a pragmatist in another? But as I said, I hold out hope.

By the way, please don't think you've shown my arguments against this behavior to be fallacious just because you accuse me of using strained analogies. First of all, any analogy can be deconstructed because anyone can show how the two things being compared do not correspond in one to one fashion. That's not hard to do, and it doesn't prove anything. Second of all, I stand by each one that I used, even the one about firearms. You have to understand the dillemma I was in at that time. You, as a result of not actually having watched the video, were advocating an absurd notion (biking recklessly while drunk is "certainly" a lot safer than what some slow bike-laner is doing). The analogies I used described absurd behavior in hopes of trying to jar you out of your own absurdity. I'm not denying they were absurd ideas; I was just trying to show you that what you were advocating was quite absurd as well.

But all that is pretty much moot, because you admit (however indirectly) that these videos are displaying absurd behaviors that ought not be imitated.

Okay, now supper.

[Treespeed]

LOL

Not related to the subject at hand... but to Treespeed...

"Tanker?"

RE ex-military as messengers... I was a PediCab driver right after my stint in the Navy... Was a nice way to ride all day, have fun meeting people and kick back until college started.

It was a blast.

Sorry, Armor? I was a driver on an M1 tank. Not a lot of civilian applications, except bulldozer driver.