Commuting - Passing cars at red lights

Anyone else do this?

If I'm approaching a red light, I invariably do the VC thing and stop behind the car in front of me, i.e., I take my place in the line.

However, if I'm pedaling towards a red light (where cars are already stopped) and, say, 3 cars pass me just to get to the red light, I'll pass those three and take what would've been my place in the line all along. The way I see it, if the cars wouldn't have tried to pass me, we'd have ended up in this position. I think it's stupid/dangerous to pass anybody just to come to a stop a few yards ahead.

Does this make sense? Am I just being petty?

I always pass all the stopped cars and shoot out of the queue first, if the road is wide enough... Why not? They'll pass me anyway. This is the fastest for me, and them as well.

I always pass all the stopped cars and shoot out of the queue first, if the road is wide enough... Why not? They'll pass me anyway. This is the fastest for me, and them as well.

Yep. And it will give you nearly a 100m head start and the cars will pass in a much safer way.

I tried to be VC for a while, take the lane and wait in my place in the queue. Traffic would pull away ahead of me and I usually wouldn't make it to the light before it changed. Plus the cars behind me wouldn't make the light either. Delayed me and pissed off the drivers.

Now, if there is room to get by safely, I filter to the front. When the light changes, I swing a little to the right to give the cars going straight plenty of room to get by. I might even cross slow enough to time my reaching the other side with the light changing so all the cars that get through the light get past me easily.

This has been a discussion for quite a while here. Safety first.

I'm one of those who usually take my place in line. It does irritate me that cars will pass (even if I'm riding fast) just to get to the light first. Jerks.

I usually still take my place in line with the car that ends up in front of me. I'll try to stay at his right rear corner until we get through the light. Most times than not, they will hang a right at the last second and not signal. I'm safe either way.

Occasionally I will slowly cruise up to a car that DOES actually have a right turn signal on. Either way, be safe. Be predictable.

I just take my place...I can usually stick close enough to the last car before me in the lane if I'm geared down at the start and gear up by the time I'm at the light...I haven't missed a light I wouldn't have missed anyway.

Keep those cars in front of you. That way, you can see what they're doing, and you don't have to rely on their driving skills for your safety. The fewer cars that pass you, the less chance you have of getting killed by a bad or distracted driver.

Sure, it's annoying when someone passes you in front of a red light, but I'd rather have that type of driver in front of me than behind me.

Of course, this depends on where you ride, too. I live in a city where I can ride as fast or faster than the cars drive, and I can time the lights so I hit greens most of the way. For me, staying behind the clumps of cars is the safe thing to do.

Depends on the width of the road. If narrow, I just get in line. if wide, I pass em all.

Yes and No. It all depends.
I guess that covers it all. I will usually wait my time in the queue if the road is narrow. However if I am turning right I often filter to the front. And if the road is wide enough I will filter but slowly, being very cautious of drivers turning right. What ever car you cross the intersection in front of (never beside) make sure they see you before entering the intersection. Staying in the queue makes this easier but may piss off drivers if you can not keep with traffic accelerating. Intersections are where everyone and especially cyclist need to be most attentive.
Craig

I always take my place, and when I do, I move to the exact middle of the lane to make my intention clear. How easy it is to do this depends on the circumstances, primarily where the light is in its cycle and how many cars are around. It's easiest when you can match your speed with the cars, and use a mirror to keep track of what's behind you. Sometimes I'll signal.

For backups, a good rule of thumb that I first heard here, and follow, is take your place when the line is short enough to get through on the next green, otherwise feel free to pass until you find a spot where you can get through on the next green. I think this is the best compromise between convenience and safety.

I've never had any trouble filtering to the front of the line and bursting out first to get across the intersection. No one in a car has ever taken issue with it. I do get some weird looks from people in the right-turn lane as they sandwich me into the middle of two lanes, but that's how it is. If you act like you belong there (which we do), no one bothers you.

Anyone else do this?

If I'm approaching a red light, I invariably do the VC thing and stop behind the car in front of me, i.e., I take my place in the line.

However, if I'm pedaling towards a red light (where cars are already stopped) and, say, 3 cars pass me just to get to the red light, I'll pass those three and take what would've been my place in the line all along. The way I see it, if the cars wouldn't have tried to pass me, we'd have ended up in this position. I think it's stupid/dangerous to pass anybody just to come to a stop a few yards ahead.

Does this make sense? Am I just being petty?

i usually just scoot right up to the right. i know some people disagree with this, but one of the reason my bike commute is so efficient, is not waiting through red light cycles.

most of my intersections are single lane, with the option to go left, right, or straight. if you DID wait like a car, you'd wait on a lot of left turners, and most likely sit through another red light cycle.

i go right to the front, but if someone's making a right turn (on a red) i give them their space. never been an issue, some people pass me again, but usually at an intersection most people are headed different ways anyway

I take my place in the back of the line regardless of the three morons who just had to be where they are...I'd rather they be up front where I don't have to be concerned with them.

If there is a wide (sharable) outside lane, a bike lane, or wide shoulder, I head to the front. If the lane is too narrow to share, then I get in line (but watch for right hooks). If it feels like I am "filtering", that is one sign of a non-sharable lane.

Paul

I'm another one who will take my place in line, unless it's really backed up and that would mean waiting more than one light cycle. In that case I will usually work my way up to where I can get through on the first green.

I've never had any trouble filtering to the front of the line and bursting out first to get across the intersection. No one in a car has ever taken issue with it. I do get some weird looks from people in the right-turn lane as they sandwich me into the middle of two lanes, but that's how it is. If you act like you belong there (which we do), no one bothers you.
I agree with this 100% and would further say that this is much safer than taking your place in line because the cars in front of you don't know you're there whereas the ones you roll by at the light will all see you. Case in point, just this past weekend I was approaching an intersection as the light turned green. There were about 10 cars in the right traffic lane ahead of me. I was in a marked bike lane. Just as I was about to enter the intersection a car right hooks me. No turn signal, no entering the bike lane which at this point is a combo rt turn/bike lane. I scream at the top of my lungs, brake and veer sharply to the right - all the way across the intersecting streets crosswalk - to avoid being hit. Now if I had been ahead of that car, it would have been more likely to see me and less likely to hit me!

I agree with this 100% and would further say that this is much safer than taking your place in line because the cars in front of you don't know you're there whereas the ones you roll by at the light will all see you. Case in point, just this past weekend I was approaching an intersection as the light turned green. There were about 10 cars in the right traffic lane ahead of me. I was in a marked bike lane. Just as I was about to enter the intersection a car right hooks me. No turn signal, no entering the bike lane which at this point is a combo rt turn/bike lane. I scream at the top of my lungs, brake and veer sharply to the right - all the way across the intersecting streets crosswalk - to avoid being hit. Now if I had been ahead of that car, it would have been more likely to see me and less likely to hit me!

Word. Filtering-up is ultimately safer IMO. But so is going through red lights when the coast is clear, but most folks will probably grill me for saying so. It minimizes the time you spend in traffic with the cars (I haven't written a proof for it but that's what my intuition tells me) plus it makes your commute faster.

I have no problem filtering unless the lane after the intersection is too narrow to share. In that case, I filter to the front and then stay put and let the cars pass me until the light turns yellow. Then I go last but do not miss the light cycle. If I can enter the intersection earlier as a VC rider, then I will do that instead.

I do the same thing as I would on a motorcycle, meaning that if there is enough space to move alongside cars to the front, then I will. This is legal in California (it's called lane-splitting, and I beleive is illegal in most states, although I have no idea why).

I avoid putting myself in the situation where I pass someone, just to cut them off by being in their way for a right turn.

If someone is signalling right, it only makes sense to pass to their left. If the line of cars is extremely long, I'll filter (though not past a truck) if there is room, and place myself to the left of a right turning car.

If the lane is narrow, just take the middle of the lane. Motorists are much less likely to deliberately run you down than to miscalculate how much room you need.

I've had one accident when I was young (and foolish) where I burned by a line of cars at a light and got smacked by a right turner. I don't feel it was his fault (I was going about 30kph to his right).

Finally, as a motorist (I do drive sometimes :-() I get really frustrated when people go straight through an intersection on my right while I'm signalling right. It just doesn't make any sense for anyone to do that, with the exception of pedestrians.

I do the same thing as I would on a motorcycle, meaning that if there is enough space to move alongside cars to the front, then I will. This is legal in California (it's called lane-splitting, and I beleive is illegal in most states, although I have no idea why).

It's funny you bring that up, because lane-splitters always bothered me. Something about all motorized vehicles being the same in traffic, regardless of number of wheels. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it has always struck me.

It's funny you bring that up, because lane-splitters always bothered me. Something about all motorized vehicles being the same in traffic, regardless of number of wheels. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it has always struck me.

Personally, I care more about getting the entire flow of traffic to its destination as fast as possible. IF that means that smaller vehicles filter and lane split, so be it; as long as it is safe.

"Life is unfair". When car drivers opt for smaller and more efficient vehicles, they will be able to split as well.

I agree with this 100% and would further say that this is much safer than taking your place in line because the cars in front of you don't know you're there whereas the ones you roll by at the light will all see you. Case in point, just this past weekend I was approaching an intersection as the light turned green. There were about 10 cars in the right traffic lane ahead of me. I was in a marked bike lane. Just as I was about to enter the intersection a car right hooks me. No turn signal, no entering the bike lane which at this point is a combo rt turn/bike lane. I scream at the top of my lungs, brake and veer sharply to the right - all the way across the intersecting streets crosswalk - to avoid being hit. Now if I had been ahead of that car, it would have been more likely to see me and less likely to hit me!
This doesn't make sense to me. If you hang back and stay in line behind the cars, who cares if they know you are there are not as they are in front of you. As soon as you go to right of them in bike lane or wide lane you put yourself at risk for the very right hook you encountered.

I almost always (with exception below) stay in line behind cars, even if it means getting out of bike lane, which I do very often.

The only time I move forward is when the line is so long I'll miss the green cycle. Then I very carefully and slowly filter/move foward but only far enough so that I will make the green cycle. But I really don't like this for the case when the light does turn green as you are filtering to the right, then you have to merge back between cars in gap so as not to be in very dangerous right side of cars that may be turning right.

For what its worth I never ride to right of cars at intersections and stay positioned well into lane and have never in over 10k miles of riding ever had a right hook or even near right hook incident from a car in the same lane. They are the least of my cycling concerns.

Al

I always pass all the stopped cars and shoot out of the queue first, if the road is wide enough... Why not? They'll pass me anyway. This is the fastest for me, and them as well.

This is the answer I was going to give. I've been doing it since I started riding in 1987.

A right hook is impossible if the cars are not moving, noisebeam.

What I want to know is one thing when doing this...

Is it legal to pass the cars on their right when stopped waiting at a stop light? Especially if you are sharing the same lane, even though it is wide enough?

If it is legal, and you have the room to pass safely with out damaging anyones car by scraping there doors etc, then fine, go ahead and do it.

If it is illegal to pass a car on the right in the same lane, while waiting at a stop light, then we are all in the wrong, and should not be doing it... ever.

I'm of the 'it depends' variety as well. If it's a narrow road with lots of traffic, I'll wait in line. If it's a wide road and it looks safe to do so, I'll filter up. If it's either and the coast is clear or it's late and I don't feel safe I'll sometimes just blow the light, provided there's no cross-traffic. I don't think it's as cut and dry as some people would like it to be. If I have to stop and think "should I be doing this?" I probably shouldn't. :)

A right hook is impossible if the cars are not moving, noisebeam.
Well obviously, I was saying right hook when I meant and should have written the hazards of filtering to right, doors opening, cars turning into driveways before intersection, parked cars, etc. I also find that when the line is long enough that I will not make the green if I line up, then it often means that it will start to move before completly filtering forward - then you get into the dynamic problem of being to the right of moving cars so you can't end up at very front of line.

One thing about this whole thing is that every intersection is different - for intersection that you encounter daily on your commute you learn whats best, it may be waiting behind as you know you will always make the green, or it may be filtering forward some distance or all as you learn all the possible hazards. But what is often difficult is a new never enountered intersection - you don't know the light cycle, you don't know the typical number of cars that turn from the right lane, etc. But since it is a seldom traveled intersection, the cumulative time savings of going forward are minimal, so staying back and possibly missing a green is usually the safest option.

Al

Hope my reply didn't sound smart-alec, noisebeam. If the road is narrow I will sometimes wait behind a car or two, just so I don't get squeezed out on the other side of the intersection. I hate it when the light turns green just before I reach the front. Then I must be careful to never overtake a MOVING car on the right, because they may not see me.

If the lane is wide enough, why would you not go to the front? All of those cars probably just passed you in the last 3 or 4 blocks in the same lane of trafic, why should we not pass them when given the chance? I go to the front nearly all the time.

If the lane is wide enough, why would you not go to the front? All of those cars probably just passed you in the last 3 or 4 blocks in the same lane of trafic, why should we not pass them when given the chance? I go to the front nearly all the time.

Well, in addition to reasons already stated, another reason is that in some jurisdictions it's illegal. We can't scream about legally being considered vehicles with all the rights thereof while simultaneously ignoring laws that don't suit us.... We won't be taken seriously.

I was earching for something to indicate whether it is generally illegal for us to pass on the right to begin with, and found this website. It has some good general tips. Some I think are quite worthy. The Collision type #3 is the one that caught my eye, and is a good practice for what I do when it is not safe to pass on the right, and I have to stay back. It mentions to be careful not to be far over in the drivers blind spot. Though I generally stick to the right, I try to stay in view of everyone.

http://bicyclesafe.com/

It basically doesn't say that it's illegal to pass on the right, but does make mention to be careful not to get doored by someone exitting the car on the passenger side as you pass.

I couldn't agree with you more- also by going to the front they all SEEEEE YOU!
Please see local news in San Diego
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20050823-0816-bn23fatal.html

Lane sharing in CA is legal, you should have no qualms about passing stopped traffic on the right, if done so safely.
To those who wait behind a car I say:
1) If you're "rear ended," you'll be crushed against the car in front of you. Is that safe?
2) If the line is long and doesn't allow you to get through the green in the next cycle, will you wait in your spot behind the slow-moving vehicles? I don't thin anyone (cyclist or motorist) expects a bicyclist to sit in line breathing car exhaust.
Passing traffic on the right to get to the front of the line is not illegal or immoral. Get over it.

Get over what?

I didn't realize there was a problem or a complaint here. It was simply a discussion as to who passes cars on the right, and legality of it. I pass cars on the right all the time unless there isn't enough room to do so. If it's legal, then fine, pass on the right. If it was not legal, then we would have to undeerstand why, and then figure out what is a better way to approach the situation appropriately. Is that such a bad thing? Or should we all just not care, and ride through traffic as if we own the road, and to hell with all the cagers, right?

This has been a discussion for quite a while here. Safety first.

I'm one of those who usually take my place in line. It does irritate me that cars will pass (even if I'm riding fast) just to get to the light first. Jerks.

I usually still take my place in line with the car that ends up in front of me. I'll try to stay at his right rear corner until we get through the light. Most times than not, they will hang a right at the last second and not signal. I'm safe either way.

Occasionally I will slowly cruise up to a car that DOES actually have a right turn signal on. Either way, be safe. Be predictable.
This is how I do it.

I rarely filter all the way to the front, for these reasons:

If there's a bus waiting at the light, it would be pretty bad to get stuck beside it if the line starts going unexpectedly. Worse yet if they turn, you run the risk of getting run over by their rear wheels.

If there's a bus, it will probably stop at the next bus stop just after the intersection, so there's little gain.

I want the vehicles behind me to see I'm there. Basically a legal way to assert one's existence without being an a-hole about it.

I can pull off the draft of the column of vehicles for a while, when they start moving.

Sometimes I'll filter, but not all the way to the front, because IME the first vehicle accelerates the fastest, and subsequent vehicles more slowly. I'm never entirely sure that first vehicle has seen me, since I wasn't there when he pulled up.

Filtering all the way to the front can mean obstructing pedestrians crossing.

Typically not more than 1 bicycle can filter to the front, there's just not that much space.

So that me and the kids in the car in front of me can make silly faces at each other.

I don't get the couple of comments I see above about recommending filtering to front so drivers see you are there. If you don't go to the front and stay behind the line of cars, there is no reason for them to see you since they will not be passing you again.

Al

Get over what?

I didn't realize there was a problem or a complaint here.
I think we are basically discussing our opinions and experiences of what we believe is safest and sharing those thoughts.

But... I do get quite annoyed when I am waiting in line behind cars and some cyclist I passed a several hundred yards before intersection comes up and passes me on my right, often squeezing by or using right turn lane to pass - I even see some folks riding mere inches from curb and cars just to squeeze to front. Then I immediately need to pass them again when the light is green, which is often difficult due to stream of cars - but what I do anticipating this is just stay in center of lane thru and past intersection until I re-pass that cyclist. This situation happens more than it should.

Another related annoyance is when some cyclist passes me on right, then holds up a bunch of right turning cars as the cyclist slowly get up to speed and plays 'who first' to cross intersection - this hold up the whole line of cars and can often mean that several fewer cars make it thru the green light. This situation is perhaps unique to where I ride since (1) there are virtually no pedestrians that would otherwise prevent right turners from turning and (2) roads are 2-3 lanes each direction, so the right most lane is usually 80% or so right turners as drivers quickly learn that if you are not turning right its best not to be in right most lane. I actually witnessed several very close right hooks from cyclist going to front of line - and actually nearly rear ended the car in front of me when a cyclist whizzed up to front by a right turner who slammed on brakes. Now I know this is not you guys doing this, but the behavior is quite common and I think it is best to role model staying in line as it sets a good example to drivers and other cyclists as to what works. One of the best days riding home was when a cyclist pulled up next to me while in line and said to me that was a great idea he hadn't considered instead of having to negotiate with right turners. Sometimes folks just need to see other options to realize they exist.

Again, I see benefit to moving forward very carefully if you are certain to miss green cycle if you don't, but otherwise there is in my experience absolutlely zero benefit and arguably several risk factors to moving forward if you will make the light anyway.

Al

i filter. whether i need to make a left or a right or go straight i filter to top of the line and act like a vehicle taking the space i need, i think that makes you most visible. but, i also think this works for me and it is up to everyone to choose what works best for them.

and i love playing the who gets through the intersection first game, cause its almost always me.

i filter. whether i need to make a left or a right or go straight i filter to top of the line and act like a vehicle taking the space i need, i think that makes you most visible. but, i also think this works for me and it is up to everyone to choose what works best for them.

and i love playing the who gets through the intersection first game, cause its almost always me.
How can you act like a vehicle and take the space if you go to front of line. The only way I can see doing that is to park yourself in front of stop line and likely in x-walk, which is rude and illegal.

What is this who get thru intersection first game? Do the car drivers know they are racing you or part of this game? Most cars could take you if the driver wanted, but most don't try as it wastes gas and make one look like an ass being 100yrd in front of other cars when shotgunning out of a light. Then again there are immature folks who think it looks cool being fast out of the light.

Al

i dont actually move in front of them, i stay to right and by act like a vehicle i mean to make my presence known, generally thats means sitting up right on the bike looking aroun, making eye contact with drivers. sometimes i rest in the cross walk sometimes i dont, and if there were peds coming, id certainly move.

i like shotgunning out of lights, its fun and i enjoy the sprint but while doing so i always give cagers space and stay to the right. yeah most of them could take me and most of 'em do once we cross over that intersection but for those couple of seconds i really enjoy being the first out of the light. and yeah, i am immature, ive only been commuting seriously for a few weeks now and riding seriously for just a year, but its part of who i am as a rider now, and this like everything will change.

Okay, this thread is crossing into dead horse beating territory here. But, I just wanted to add that you should NEVER assume that because you get in front of a car, the driver can see you.

Have you seen a car stereo lately? More buttons than a computer keyboard, some with video touch screens. Don't forget cell phones, iPods, Blackberries, PDAs, drive-thru meals, lighted makeup mirrors, navigation systems, and everything else drivers diddle around with at stoplights. Or drunk drivers, or teenage drivers. Or just plain bad drivers. After almost all car/cyclist collisions, what do the drivers say? "I never saw him."

Keep 'em all in front of you. Time the lights, think ahead. Stay safe, everyone.

But, I just wanted to add that you should NEVER assume that because you get in front of a car, the driver can see you.
This is a fantastic and very important point I was thinking about too. Along the right side of cars is a very easy to ignore point for drivers. And even if your just to the right-front of cars they may not see you until after they press gas pedal and start to turn. A lot of driver like to watch x-traffic as it comes from their left, then see it slow and get ready to go, maybe turn their head as they are starting to go. Peds using x-walks get killed this way.

Anyway it just seem plain counter intuitive to be in the right most part of the lane when there are or may be cars to your left turning right. This situation requires a negotiation that is not a typical traffic pattern.

Al

i like shotgunning out of lights, its fun and i enjoy the sprint
I also shotgun out of lights when on my bike and enjoy the sprint and exercise. But I never think of it as a game/competetion against cars. When driving a car I never shot gun out of a light, such a waste with no gain.

Al

Word. Filtering-up is ultimately safer IMO. But so is going through red lights when the coast is clear, but most folks will probably grill me for saying so. It minimizes the time you spend in traffic with the cars (I haven't written a proof for it but that's what my intuition tells me) plus it makes your commute faster.

Double Word!

After almost all car/cyclist collisions, what do the drivers say? "I never saw him."

That's because motorists are trained to look for traffic from where it is supposed to be coming according to traffic law and convention. The "not seen" struck cyclist is often riding the wrong way on the street the motorist is entering, riding at night without lights, blowing through traffic control devices, crossing intersections from sidewalks, darting out of driveways or between parked cars, filtering up between lanes or on the right of cars in the blind spot of the driver or any number of practices that places the cyclist in a position unexpected or unseen by the motorist. Those cyclists that abide by traffic law/custom and ride responsibly are much more likely to be seen, avoided and even respected.

Seems like all but a few diehard VCers agree that "it depends on the situation," with perhaps a bit more inclination one way or the other.

I'll just add my voice to the majority: if it's wide enough I'll head on up. If not, I won't. And "wide enough" depends on a number of factors other than "will I fit."

One of my principles of urban cycling is to inconvenience automobiles as rarely as possible. This sometimes means that the safest and most efficient course of action for me and for everyone else is one that might be a bit dodgy legally. I don't know what the law on passing stopped traffic is, but I pass police cars this way all the time and no one has expressed any concern. (Contrast this with running red lights, which is illegal, and (in Seattle) is enforced.)

A similar case is double-teaming a stop sign alongside a vehicle. Seattle is a veritable nightmare of four way stops in some places. It's far more convenient for me -- and also for other traffic -- if I go through a stop sign *with* a car, rather than waiting my turn *behind* a car: by using another vehicle as a shield, I can maintain momentum, whereas if I have to come to a complete stop, and then accelerate through the intersection, particularly if its uphill, I am holding everyone else up as well... and for no good safety benefit. Naturally, one has to be highly alert to which cars are going where, and naturally, nobody in this town uses turn signals, so that's not what you have to be alert to.

One of my principles of urban cycling is to inconvenience automobiles as rarely as possible.

If by "to inconvenience automobiles as rarely as possible" you mean to not depend on them reacting to you, I wholeheartedly agree. My goal (whether riding or driving) is to make sure, a much is possible, that it's not necessary for someone have to react to (or even anticipate) my action or presence -- because sooner or later, they won't. I call that defensive driving/cycling....

If by "to inconvenience automobiles as rarely as possible" you mean to not depend on them reacting to you, I wholeheartedly agree. My goal (whether riding or driving) is to make sure, a much is possible, that it's not necessary for someone have to react to (or even anticipate) my action or presence -- because sooner or later, they won't. I call that defensive driving/cycling....

Got to thinking on the way home -- that's too simplistic a statement. While I do do that, I also try to inconvenience drivers if by doing so prevents them form making a stupid choice. I aggressively take the lane when it makes sense to do so. And that goes against what I said earlier. So, my goal is to "be invisible" and to .... no, wait, my two main goals are to "be invisible," "eliminate bad choices," and .... no, my three main goals are..... ;-)

yeah i think that raleigh_fan has got it. aside from the shotgunning out of lights i try to make sure that cars dont have to worry about me and that if i need to, they cannot avoid me, for a turn, or a stop sign. but most of the time i just keep moving along the right hand side.