Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Knee pain while riding brakeless?

Hey everyone. Ive been riding brakeless about a month now and I notice that Im starting to get some pain in my knees while slowing myself down. I guess this isnt too uncommon but I was wondering if anyone has any tips or anything to deal with this? My commute is very very short but Ive had knee problems in the past and it feels like its coming back.

brake?

brake?

Yeah, not a bad suggestion. I ride brakeless, but if I do it every day for a while my knees start to hurtin' all day long. That's why I tend to mix it up with my geared road bike, keep my colds freezing and my hots burning, if you know what I mean. I love the feeling of riding brakeless, but when it comes to something like your knees, don't overlook them. IMHO they are one of our evolutionary weak points. And once you mess up a knee really bad, in most cases its never the same.
So anyway, some knee pain is to be expected, but if it gets regular, either take a break or take a brake, y'know? There's no shame in that game.

My knees were a little tender when I first went brakeless, but once my legs strengthened up all of that went away very quickly. Now there's no uncomfortable stress or pain in my knees at all, even when stopping on a steep downhill.

It can be any number of things like your riding position/fit, method, gearing. Your best bet is to stop until it's figured out. Go get fitted and start again with fewer gear inches. If you are "jerky" at all while slowing or in the transition work on form, stopping should be as smooth as starting and spinning. Your knees will never be as strong as they were if you injure them and you can injure them fixed without realizing how bad they're screwed.

Stretch well before you ride. Learn to skip rather than resist. Even a long, smooth skid should be easier on the knees than resisting, for that matter.

Thanks for the input everyone. I guess I should learn how to skip/skid. I took a nasty spill practicing it before and havent gotten the willpower to try it again. I guess Ill get on that.

Not trying to be preachy, but if you haven't learned to skip or skid, you shouldn't be riding brakeless.
Besides adding a brake, dropping your gear ratio can make your knees happier too.

Thanks for the input everyone. I guess I should learn how to skip/skid. I took a nasty spill practicing it before and havent gotten the willpower to try it again. I guess Ill get on that.


I can't understand people riding without a front brake when they can't skip or skid. That's a Darwin Award waiting to happen.

lower your gear ratio, seriously, you should be spinning well over 60 rpm at your normal commuting pace especially if you have knee problems it should be like 90-100. also check your saddle height, may be too high, and the cleat/pedal positioning if you ride clipless. but seriously lower that gear ratio it's easier to stop and start you'll actually be faster, believe it or not, and your knees will thank you, also get a brake it doesn't affect the nice ride of a fixie or the riding experience in anyway and you dont have to use it all the time, knees are fragile and way more important than having clean lines on the handlebars and looking cool

I actually talked to a sports doctor one time about this and he told me the kind of pushing and pulling on your joints that you'd get from riding brakeless would eventually seriously damage your joints and tendons in your knees. Brakeless is irresponsible, and mostly for those obsesed with some esoteric aesthetic. Think about it people, a bicycle with no ostensibly effective means for stopping? In city traffic? Car = about 4000 lbs., your puny body = maybe 180. Do the math.

Saying a handbrakeless track bike has "no ostensibly effective means for stopping" is just incorrect, unless your definition of "effective" is stringent to the point of absurdity.

I actually talked to a sports doctor one time about this and he told me the kind of pushing and pulling on your joints that you'd get from riding brakeless would eventually seriously damage your joints and tendons in your knees. Brakeless is irresponsible, and mostly for those obsesed with some esoteric aesthetic. Think about it people, a bicycle with no ostensibly effective means for stopping? In city traffic? Car = about 4000 lbs., your puny body = maybe 180. Do the math.

if youre worried about the math.. you shouldnt be on the street

I think no brakes is only irresponsible if you can't stop very well (or if you ride irresponsibly fast).

If you have consisent knee problems then definitely use a brake. No reason to abuse yourself. What is your gear ratio, anyway?

The weight ratio between a bicyclist and a car doesnt say much about the effectiveness of brakes.

Good point about the speed thing skelly. Whats the braking distance comparison between a brakeless fixie going 15 and a road bike doing 40? Whats the tightest radius that can be taken at 15mph vs 40? There are lots of other factors there besides rhetoric.

Front hand brake is good for knees and saves $$ on tires. They can also help you stop faster in an emergency. Yes the experienced can stop fast with just using their leg rear brake, but the experienced can theoretically stop faster using both leg brake and front hand brake - its physics.

I always get knee pain if I ride not using front hand brake on my 74.5 gear inch bike.

If you insist on no front hand brake, which is fine only if you do know how to effectively stop fast with legs, start with a low gear - it will let you build up a smooth technique and put less force on legs, both of which will help knees. Also the lower gear will limit your top speed (assuming you are cadence limited) which means it will be easier to stop.

Al

A lot has to do with pedalling technique too.
Many of us don't use muscles effectively and therefor overcompensate on other muscles which of course will lead to pain. For example - when going down a hill with no handbrake, picture yourself pedalling with your knees, not your feet. This will make life a lot easier for you knees because you are using your butt muscles instead of pressuring your joints. When pedalling forwards (and backwards) try to mentally twist your heel outwards on the downstroke. You don't actually need to physically do this, but visualizing it will help to wake up muscles you normally don't use. (Search Ken Cox's posts he can describe it much better than I). These things are hard to figure out at first, but just keep tweaking your riding/pedalling style a little and you will most likely get comfortable without the need for a handbrake. Not that a handbrake is a bad thing.

When you ride in general don't think of it as you against the bike, don't think of it as a struggle for control, instead try to dance harmoniously, sometimes the bike will lead, sometimes you will lead. Never be jerky, keep it smooth and playful. Mind like water (Yeah, now we have entered the realm of esoterics again, but your mind ultimately dictates how you ride and feel).

Regarding gear ratios. Lowering the gear ratio will lower the painful effects of bad pedalling technique, because you will be putting less force into the bad technique. BUT, it will not CORRECT bad pedalling technique - all it will do is make it easier to continue with the same mistakes. (Of course a 105 inch gear would be too big for SF, but I am not talking about the stupid extremes).

And of course bike fit matters too. Make minor adjustments to your seat height, angle, fore aft, etc. same is true for the stem.
Hope this helps.

speaking of butt muscles. i just reciently moved to toe clips from just platforms n now the outside of my ass is really sore. does that mean im pedaling right?

Could be. Unless your knees or back are screaming with pain...

Basically, if you are riding painfree you are doing it most likely right.

If you joints hurt you are doing something wrong (unless you have some kind of other condition/illness.). Pains can be usually remedied by changing technique.

Sore muscles are good - means you are riding hard. Now go get a beer and chug it while riding with no handbrake.

I swear there was a thread about this not even a month ago, but I'm too lazy to search for it. You are 100% correct, but I'd like to add that this is not just "theoretical". You can definitely, unequivocally, and without question stop faster with a front brake than using rear brake only or using the skip/skid techniques (without a front brake). Period. End of story. I even did this as a homework problem when I was a sophomore.




Front hand brake is good for knees and saves $$ on tires. They can also help you stop faster in an emergency. Yes the experienced can stop fast with just using their leg rear brake, but the experienced can theoretically stop faster using both leg brake and front hand brake - its physics.

I think bostontrevor was the one who went into it, but this is simply a matter of weight transfer. Whether or not you brake hard enough or have a C.G. far forward enough to get the rear wheel off the ground, the vast majority of a bike's stopping power is done by the front brake, as you can easily get 80% (or more) of your (and the bike's) weight to the front wheel during hard stopping. If you are built in such a way, sit back far enough, or don't have a strong enough front brake, then some weight will remain on the rear wheel, and you can use a rear brake (or your legs) to increase deceleration further.

Personally, just sitting normally on my bike, I can easily loft the rear wheel during hard braking, thus placing 100% of my weight on to the front tire. You can't get much more traction on the front for braking than that. With that said, even in heavy traffic, I've rarely been in a scenario where I've had to stop *that* hard, as I'm usually below 20 mph in those situations.

The comparison of a fixie at 15 and a road bike at 40 is moot, unless one of you is Tom Boonen. Of course your turning radius is bigger (it goes as velocity^2), and even using your front brake to the best of its ability, your stopping distance would be longer. But who the hell is going 40 on their bikes on anything but a steep downhill? Or doing it in some place that a car can stop quickly or turn right in front of you? Now *that* would be reckless.

For freewheel operation, there's no question I'd rather have two brakes. Besides, locking up the rear with a quick pull of a lever encourages some awesome hooligan antics. Oh yeah.

IYou are 100% correct, but I'd like to add that this is not just "theoretical".
Yes, the physics show that you can stop faster with front brake and rear leg braking faster than rear legs alone. I said 'theoretical' in context of the person doing the stopping. All I meant is that if they don't have the technique/skill to use both (just giving benefit of doubt for this touchy subject), but have lots of experience with rear only, then they may not be able to stop faster with front hand brake.

If you do use a front hand brake and legs, you learn very quickly that you apply front brake hard, weight yourself rearward (unlike when doing a rear only skid) and also apply rear pedal pressure, as that rear pressure develops into a skid you keep it just as the verge of skidding - this results in the maximum stopping power as any more front brake would lift rear tire and any more rear back pressure would result in skid which is less stopping power than rear back pressure. Basically you are the human form of an anti lock brake for the rear tire and using the maximum front brake short of lifting wheel and unbalancing yourself.

Al

Yeah I'd check your saddle and bar positions first.

What exactly do you guys mean by skip/skid? Bunnyhops? Why is skidding a hard thing to learn? Sorry to sound like such a newb, but I just finished up my fixie conversion today and enjoyed riding around Toronto and didn't have any problems, but you guys are freaking me out :/

What exactly do you guys mean by skip/skid? Bunnyhops? Why is skidding a hard thing to learn? Sorry to sound like such a newb, but I just finished up my fixie conversion today and enjoyed riding around Toronto and didn't have any problems, but you guys are freaking me out :/

http://www.63xc.com/gregg/101_10.htm

don't be freaked out.



i guess i'm lucky(?) enough to have daily back pain that make me not even notice what me legs feel like from cycling.

Yes, the physics show that you can stop faster with front brake and rear leg braking faster than rear legs alone. I said 'theoretical' in context of the person doing the stopping. All I meant is that if they don't have the technique/skill to use both (just giving benefit of doubt for this touchy subject), but have lots of experience with rear only, then they may not be able to stop faster with front hand brake.

If you do use a front hand brake and legs, you learn very quickly that you apply front brake hard, weight yourself rearward (unlike when doing a rear only skid) and also apply rear pedal pressure, as that rear pressure develops into a skid you keep it just as the verge of skidding - this results in the maximum stopping power as any more front brake would lift rear tire and any more rear back pressure would result in skid which is less stopping power than rear back pressure. Basically you are the human form of an anti lock brake for the rear tire and using the maximum front brake short of lifting wheel and unbalancing yourself.

Al

Another more effective than the regular skid/skip way to stop is to just stand on your rear wheel.
Put your foot where the seatstays cross the tire and then stand up on it. Both of your feet will be off the pedals then and almost your entire body weight will push down on the tire. This will shut things down fast! (not quite as fast a front brake of course, but a lot more fun.) It is a good way to stop when you drop your chain too. Looks good too especially when combined with a stylish dismount.

Another more effective than the regular skid/skip way to stop is to just stand on your rear wheel.
Uhhh, for me effective means in how short a distance one can travel from seeing the reason to stop (say truck pulling in front of you) to being stopped - rapid stopping for me means reacting to an emergency situation. Keeping in control is also very beneficial as well as some level of manevering may be needed. The time it would take to unclip and put feet on rear wheel would be far better used immediately slowing by applying backpressure and front brake. I also can't see one staying in good control of bike with feet up on rear wheel. No thanks an emergency (unless emergency is losing chain when you have no front brake), but perhaps a fun 'parking lot' stunt.

Al

Our knee constitutes a very strong joint with very little adjustability.
It bends like a door hinge, with no sideplay.
Whatever side and rotational flexibility we think we have in our knees comes from our hips and our ankles.
Our hips and ankles can do some amazing things, but our knees bend only one way, like door hinges.

We all learned to ride on platform pedals, which means we learned to mash.
Mashing teaches us to use our front thigh muscles in strange ways, so that we tend to pull the top of our shin bone into the bottom of our thigh bone.
If we have any wierd alignments in our ankles and hips, it tends to focus in our knees as our thigh muscles pull the shin upward.

If a person leaves toe-out wet footprints at the pool, and most Americans do, he probably needs to visualize his heel as going out on the down stroke.
He or she should also visualize an outward push with the side of the foot as it descends.
Over time, this will awaken the hip and butt muscles and take some of the pulling/mashing load off of the knees.

Additionally, the load on the foot should flow into the pedal through a point halfway between the ball of the big toe and the corresponding ball of the index-toe.
One accomplishes this by rocking his foot left and right, at the ankle, until he can "see" the force flowing out of his foot between the big toe and the index toe.
So, if a person walks toe-out, he should think heel out, foot sideways out, and rock the ankle inward so that the force goes into the pedal between his big toe and index toe.

In order to brake without skipping or skidding, but just by resisting the pedals, one must first spread the braking action sufficiently over time.
Start early.

When one wants to spin fast going downhill, he should give his weight to the saddle and pull up on the pedals, as if trying to raise the bottom bracket while spinning.
This will dramatically increase spin rate without "bobbing."

Conversely, when one wants to slow down by resistive braking over time, he should transfer his weight to the pedals and make himself light on the saddle and move backwards on the saddle.
As he transfers his weight to the pedals, he should "drop" his heels and pull up on his toes as the pedals come up.
He should absorb as much of the upward movement of the pedals with his calves, hips and butt, so that the hips rock left and right while remaining just barely in contact with the saddle.
Relax the front of the thighs and let the calves, hips and butt do more of the work.
Relaxing the front of the thighs will stop the knee pain.

Heels down, toes up, and let the hips rock left and right.
Relax the fronts of the thighs.

One can generally not go down a hill any slower than he can go up the same hill, fast.

you know, i rode brakeless for a long time. because it's cool, and elitist, and people stare with wonder at your bike when it's leaning on a building. but courier work got too dangerous with tourist traffic, and new england hills are tiring. and i must say, my track bike is twice as fast, and three times as fun with a front brake. and sometimes getting caught up in elitist snobbery makes you forget that we all got into cycling because it's ****ing FUN. just put a little cyclocross lever near the stem, or even better, a BMX one finger lever. then you get brakes AND naked handlebars.

Conversely, when one wants to slow down by resistive braking over time, he should transfer his weight to the pedals and make himself light on the saddle and move backwards on the saddle.
As he transfers his weight to the pedals, he should "drop" his heels and pull up on his toes as the pedals come up.
He should absorb as much of the upward movement of the pedals with his calves, hips and butt, so that the hips rock left and right while remaining just barely in contact with the saddle.
Relax the front of the thighs and let the calves, hips and butt do more of the work.
Relaxing the front of the thighs will stop the knee pain.




Wow. This is the most valuable thing that I have read on these forums in two years. Just doing this makes the hugest difference in how I control my bike. Thanks Ken.

C

Wow. This is the most valuable thing that I have read on these forums in two years. Just doing this makes the hugest difference in how I control my bike. Thanks Ken.

C

You should read all of Ken's posts.

...and the little red star shall guide you...

You should read all of Ken's posts.


life is too short for that.

If a person leaves toe-out wet footprints at the pool, and most Americans do, he probably needs to visualize his heel as going out on the down stroke..

thanks, ken! now, what advice would you give to someone who is naturally more pigeon-toed (toe-in)? my friend has a swollen medial tendon due to improper leg/foot alignment while pedalling.

Very helpful post by Ken.

Funny, just recently I noticed my right heel is slightly brushing against the crank when I pedal. Only my right foot though and just recently. I've been trying to fix that.

knee...hips...ankles...front thigh muscles...shin bone...
...side of the foot...hip and butt muscles...ball of the big toe...ball of the index-toe...calves, hips and butt...heels

this reminds me of when i go to the velodrome and the other riders are pacing me and giving me advice - too many body parts to think of at once! but it is really sound advice, i think, so i will try to consider it when i can.

i get knee pain that i believe is just from repetitive motion, not brakes-versus-no brakes, because it sets in at about 40 miles no matter what kind of bike i'm riding. most likely i am just doing something wrong, that takes a while to produce negative consequences.

when i rode two centuries in two days earlier this summer on my track bike, the left knee began to hurt at the usual time, but after a while my right knee got it, too. when it was all over (many grams of ibuprofen later) my left knee was inexplicably fine, but the right one was in bad shape; it took days to recover.

in contrast, two saturdays ago i rode about 120 miles on my geared bike. the left knee started hurting on cue, at around 40 miles, but i found that by coasting periodically, and extending my left leg and stretching it a bit, i could manage the pain so that, at the end of the day, it was not so bad. by monday i was fine (the right knee never hurt at all).

this leads me to the unsavory conclusion that riding long distances on a fixed gear is harder on my knees than riding a freewheel bike, at least until i can correct whatever is wrong with my motion.

I had the same sort of problem: after riding x miles my knee would start to hurt whether I was hammering away or just crusing. With a little research I think that i have diagnosed my self as having iliotibial band syndrome. Some streching before riding helps. If you google for the mentioned i.b.s., (not irritible bowel syndrome!) you can find the stretches. It may help.

C