View Full Version : NYC CM---The World Is Watching
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 10:21 AM
Pictures: http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/56144.html 50 Arrested.
http://bikeblog.blogspot.com/2005/08/criminal-mass-august-200549-arrested.html
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/56033.html
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=131726
http://worldcarfree.net/nyc/letters.php
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/56034.html
Since August of 2004, riders who gather for Critical Mass have faced considerable harassment from the NYPD, including surrounding of Union Square by metal barriers intended to limit movement of lawfully assembled people and arbitrary arrests of law-abiding bicyclists. In February New York City filed suit against Time's Up!, an 18-year-old environmental organization, seeking to prohibit that organization or its volunteers from publicizing the ride, and claiming that it is illegal to peacefully assemble in Union Square at the start of the bicycle ride.
"You don't lose your rights all at once," said Norman Siegel. "You lose them bit by bit. We have to fight to protect our civil rights."
This affects all Americans even if they don't ride bikes at all. This is a free speech and freedom of assembly issue. Are we going to sit down and allow a police state here in America?
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
filtersweep
08-26-05, 11:35 AM
This affects all Americans even if they don't ride bikes at all. This is a free speech and freedom of assembly issue. Are we going to sit down and allow a police state here in America?
Are your sure it isn't about annoying motorists, running through red lights, and creating general chaos?
Are your sure it isn't about annoying motorists, running through red lights, and creating general chaos?
Motorists do this every day to each other without complaint. I drive too and obey the speed limit, EVERY CAR IS PASSING ME. I never see a car come to a complete stop at a red light before making a right turn.
Cars are causing much more chaos than bike can ever hope for.
Your point?
http://www.cars-suck.org/
Let me get this straight, scarry. You see some motorists speeding, and others not coming to complete stops. This bothers you. On the other hand, you openly advocate bicyclists doing much worse. You claim to be pro-law and order, but you're really just anti-car. There is a difference.
While some drivers are less than vigilant about following traffic laws to the letter, they don't generally congregate in large numbers at rush hour with the express intent to flagrantly violate the traffic laws.
One of the main purposes of CM is cause disruption. Careless and lazy drivers, hazardous as they are, don't have this kind of agenda.
- Warren
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 12:13 PM
One of the main purposes of CM is cause disruption. Careless and lazy drivers, hazardous as they are, don't have this kind of agenda.
- Warren
One man's disruption is another's free speech.
One man's disruption is another's free speech.
The term 'free speech' has legal meaning, and is therefore not subject to such individual interpretation.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
In many respects, CM is not a peaceful assembly, and therefore does not fall under free speech protection. A group VC ride would; people crowding in the middle of intersections yelling "GRIDLOCK!" does not.
- Warren
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 12:28 PM
In many respects, CM is not a peaceful assembly, and therefore does not fall under free speech protection.
- Warren
The Police didn't think Kent State or the Selma March were peaceful either.
Hawkear
08-26-05, 12:37 PM
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/56033.html
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=131726
http://worldcarfree.net/nyc/letters.php
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/56034.html
Do you do anything other than link and run? Why not put some actual self-generated content in your posts, other than a bunch of links?
brokenrobot
08-26-05, 12:41 PM
Let me get this straight, scarry. You see some motorists speeding, and others not coming to complete stops. This bothers you. On the other hand, you openly advocate bicyclists doing much worse.
Just want to be totally clear on your argument here. Peacefully assembling in a park on public property while obeying all laws is worse than running red lights? Telling people that others will be peacefully assembling in a public park is worse than speeding? Those two constitutionally protected actions are what the City's lawsuit is about, as is explicitly clear if you've read the filings. If you haven't read the lawsuit and don't understand what the case is about, please refrain from ill-informed comment.
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 12:42 PM
Do you do anything other than link and run? Why not put some actual self-generated content in your posts, other than a bunch of links?
Why re-invent the wheel?
Peacefully assembling in a park on public property while obeying all laws is worse than running red lights?
I don't recall ever saying this. If you're going to put words in my mouth, be kind enough to use words I actually might say.
I have said that the usual CM activities are worse than lazy motorists, including but not limited to: piling dozens of bikes into busy intersections, putting feet down, yelling "GRIDLOCK!" and stopping traffic for ten minutes; blocking motorist access to bridges which are legally closed to bicycle traffic anyway; kicking in fenders and headlights of cars which honk. I've personally witnessed all of these actions in San Francisco, and they all do much more harm than good for bicycle advocacy. As I've said before, I think a large percentage of CM participants couldn't give a rat's ass about new bike lanes and bike parking; they're just taking advantage of a golden opportunity to be dickheads.
I don't recall any CM riders peacefully assembling in a park, but I'm sure you'd love to tell me all about it. Go ahead.
- Warren
I'm on my way to SF on BART in just a few hours.
I take it you won't be there. But if you would like to see for yourself, and have a face to face chat, show up at JHP at 5 pm and look for me on a BikeE recumbent with a orange milk crate. I'll even buy you a beer. :beer:
Otherwise you can flame all you want here on BF, but it's nothing but bits in a computer somewhere.
Critical Mass becomes more relevent every month as we see the price of gas going up up up.
How high does gas have to get before EVERYONE is anti-car.
Let me get this straight, scarry. You see some motorists speeding, and others not coming to complete stops. This bothers you. On the other hand, you openly advocate bicyclists doing much worse. You claim to be pro-law and order, but you're really just anti-car. There is a difference.
While some drivers are less than vigilant about following traffic laws to the letter, they don't generally congregate in large numbers at rush hour with the express intent to flagrantly violate the traffic laws.
One of the main purposes of CM is cause disruption. Careless and lazy drivers, hazardous as they are, don't have this kind of agenda.
- Warren
I'm on my way to SF on BART in just a few hours.
I take it you won't be there. But if you would like to see for yourself, and have a face to face chat, show up at JHP at 5 pm and look for me on a BikeE recumbent with a orange milk crate. I'll even buy you a beer. :beer:
I consider myself much more a cyclist than a motorist, and honestly I'm probably as anti-car as you are, though I own one out of necessity (do you?). On the other hand, I think CM is a travesty, and a black eye for cycling advocacy in general. I'm sure you're a great guy, and I'd be happy to buy our second pints of Guiness, but I strongly disagree with the actions I've seen in CM, and I strongly disagree with your choices if you're the kind of person that commits those actions. (And, as I understand it, the SF CM is relatively tame compared to other cities.)
Otherwise you can flame all you want here on BF, but it's nothing but bits in a computer somewhere.
Critical Mass becomes more relevent every month as we see the price of gas going up up up.
I've actually never heard of a single person -- ever -- turning to bicycle transportation after witnessing a CM. I'm not saying such people don't exist, but it's apparent that the number must be very small. I've also never heard a single motorist -- ever -- note that their appreciation for cyclists had improved as a result of witnessing a CM. As a result, I don't really think CM is relevant at all -- it seems to accomplish nothing but providing a couple hours of adrenaline-pumping entertainment for would-be anarchists.
- Warren
thelung
08-26-05, 01:16 PM
Why do new yorkers always think they are so damn important? No your ad-hoc bike parade will not affect me.
I would like to take the time to point out (as I have pointed out in just about every other CM thread) that not all CMs are anarchist, anti-car, gridlock happy gangs of cyclists. In NYC, on the second friday of the month, a small (compared to manhattan) group of cyclists get together in Brooklyn for the Brooklyn Mass. Last month a few bicycle cops joined us. For the most part we rode vehicularly (as much as possible for a group of 50-60) stopping at red lights and signalling turns.
All of the anti-CM people need to realize that CM is not about anything in particular at all, except some cyclists meeting up and riding whereever. In some areas it becomes an anti-car demonstration but that is not universal. In fact, I'd wager that the majority of CMs are not overtly anti-car - it's just that the media has focused on the Manhattan (and a few other) CMs which have gotten out of hand (although in Manhattan the fault for that lies primarily with the police, and the out-of-town RNC protestors last August).
Why do new yorkers always think they are so damn important? No your ad-hoc bike parade will not affect me.
Heck, I am a New Yorker and I could give a big rat's ass about Critical Mass.
Is CM about free-speech or bicycle advocacy. Is it some anti-car gathering. Or just a opportunity for the lame to play anarchist for a couple hours.
In NYC, on the second friday of the month, a small (compared to manhattan) group of cyclists get together in Brooklyn for the Brooklyn Mass. Last month a few bicycle cops joined us. For the most part we rode vehicularly (as much as possible for a group of 50-60) stopping at red lights and signalling turns.
I applaud you, Yoshi. I go on group rides of 40+ members at least twice a week, and haven't stood in an intersection or kicked in a fender yet. In fact, I've never been honked at, and even have had more than a few compliments on my bike and kit from motorists at stop signs. That's bicycle advocacy.
All of the anti-CM people need to realize that CM is not about anything in particular at all, except some cyclists meeting up and riding whereever.
This is the Achilles' Heel of CM -- it has no direction. It is grassroots, unguided, and without purpose, and group mentality results in otherwise nice people doing some really crappy things to their fellow city residents.
If it were self-policed in some way -- even something so simple as a flyer passed around encouraging people to be civil -- I'd probably jump the fence and become a CMer. I really feel the actions of a few low-lifes ruins the whole CM experience (and public message), and am saddened that CM riders don't do a better job of discouraging the low-lifes in their midst. I love the idea of a huge group ride!
- Warren
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 01:27 PM
I don't really think CM is relevant at all -- it seems to accomplish nothing but providing a couple hours of adrenaline-pumping entertainment for would-be anarchists.
- Warren
What's wrong with THAT? It seems the NYPD has created a situation that it not just about a bunch of would-be anarchist riding around on bikes. Because of what NYPD has done, it's now about the First Amendment. It has always been about the First Amendment, the right to peaceably assemble.
We are still entitle to that, aren't we?
And, what's so wrong with THAT?
Can you read? Hello, McFly!
I never said anything was wrong with a couple of hours of adrenaline-pumping entertainment. What I said was that by being nothing but adrenaline-pumping entertainment, CM does not accomplish its supposed goals. When CMers get defensive, they universally start spouting off about their utopian car-free fantasyland, while forgetting completely that CM factually does little or nothing to bring our world closer to that utopia.
- Warren
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 01:31 PM
Can you read? Hello, McFly!
I never said anything was wrong with a couple of hours of adrenaline-pumping entertainment. What I said was that by being nothing but adrenaline-pumping entertainment, CM does not accomplish its supposed goals. When CMers get defensive, they universally start spouting off about their utopian car-free fantasyland, while forgetting completely that CM factually does little or nothing to bring our world closer to that utopia.
- Warren
It's not about the CM. It's about the First Amendment.
It has always been about the First Amendment, the right to peaceably assemble. We are still entitle to that, aren't we?
Yes, yes, that same old spin... "No, officer, we just came here to the park to hang out and enjoy the peace and tranqulitity. Sometimes I guess a lot of the other people here jump on their bikes and go kicking in car fenders, but golly gee, that's not what I'm here for. How can you arrest me, I wasn't intending on even getting on my bike, honest injun!"
CMers play such childish games.
- Warren
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 01:34 PM
CMers play such childish games.
- Warren
Will the person who sat down in front of bus, please stand up?
It's not about the CM. It's about the First Amendment.
The First Amendment does not protect CM, because CM (intentionally or unintentionally) almost always turns into a fender-kicking disruptive malignancy. Get that through your skull. You don't have the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, and you don't have the right to cause mass disruption in a city.
- Warren
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 01:36 PM
you don't have the right to cause mass disruption in a city.
- Warren
So, what do you do with all the motorists causing traffic jams? Haul them all off to jail too?
Will the person who sat down in front of bus, please stand up?
Yes, yes, let's trot out Rosa Parks, the universal second defensive course that CMers take when their primary defense is breached.
Let's compare: Rosa Parks was told that she could not ever use the front seats of the bus, for any reason, ever. The NYPD tells you you can use your bike on the road anytime you'd like, as long as you follow the same traffic laws that apply to everyone else.
Cyclists are an opressed minority comparable to blacks during the Jim Crow laws? That's one of the least sensible, and most insensitive arguments you can possibly make. Well done, jackass.
- Warren
So, what do you do with all the motorists causing traffic jams? Haul them all off to jail too?
The people stuck in traffic jams are not intending to disrupt anything; they're likely trying to get home, and probably wish there weren't a traffic jam at all. Please tell me you have enough neurons to understand this.
I'm not the enemy, barenakedbiker. I'm a fellow cyclist. I ride my bike 30 miles round trip to work twice a week. All of my short around-town trips are by bicycle. I'm on your side, bro. The people stuck in cars in traffic jams are short-sighted, and I feel sorry for them. That doesn't mean I'm anti-car, or a CM supporter. It's not a black and white world.
- Warren
Yes, yes, let's trot out Rosa Parks, the universal second defensive course that CMers take when their primary defense is breached.
Let's compare: Rosa Parks was told that she could not ever use the front seats of the bus, for any reason, ever. The NYPD tells you you can use your bike on the road anytime you'd like, as long as you follow the same traffic laws that apply to everyone else.
Cyclists are an opressed minority comparable to blacks during the Jim Crow laws? That's one of the least sensible, and most insensitive arguments you can possibly make. Well done, jackass.
- Warren
You need to come to NY if you think that the NYPD tells you can use ride your bike anytime you'd like so long as you follow traffic laws. If you ride your bike on teh last friday of the month, regardless of whether you are actually a part of CM or not, regardless of whether you are following laws or not, you CAN be arrested. Ask nycm'er who was arrested a few months ago after stopping at a red light (and he was following traffic laws the entire time).
I'm not trying to justify the flagrant disregard of traffic laws, but I don't pretend the police are in the right. You should either, especially since you are not in NY and you don't know what it really is like.
NOTE: this applies to Manhattan, not Brooklyn where the attitude is very different.
You need to come to NY if you think that the NYPD tells you can use ride your bike anytime you'd like so long as you follow traffic laws.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If CM didn't exist, there'd be no extra scrutiny on Friday evenings. I certainly don't side with the police, but I recognize their humanity. They're ticked off about having to deal with scoff-law CM riders and, like any human, cannot be expected to correctly disambiguate one VC cyclist from thousands of other non-VC cyclists 100% of the time. If five bank robbers are running down the sidewalk, and you're running alongside them, you can expect to get taken down, too.
If you're pissed about the extra scrutiny on Friday evenings, direct your misgivings at the CM riders, not the NYPD.
- Warren
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 01:55 PM
The people stuck in traffic jams are not intending to disrupt anything; they're likely trying to get home, and probably wish there weren't a traffic jam at all. Please tell me you have enough neurons to understand this.
- Warren
Maybe it is not anyone's intent to disrupt anything. When I am on the road with my bike, I don't intend to disrupt anything. Yet, I am treated as if I were the worst piece of crap since the speed hump. Slowing down traffic.
I don't really need to be with a bunch of other would-be anarchists to be a Critical Mass. From the point of view of the motorist, I am a Critical Mass of one.
It's not about Critical Mass. It's about the right to sit in front of the bus. It's about the right to peaceably assemble. Ultimately, it's about the right to silently speak about much larger issues of oil and war, while holding onto handlebars, instead of the steering wheel.
slagjumper
08-26-05, 01:57 PM
CM is growing in popularity because of the times. There was nothing like this during the last fuel crunch (1978). Or when they started the transcontinental bike path(1974), and more people owned bikes then! People participate for many reasons--not just to disrupt others. When I see the folks who stand in the intersections and hold back traffic, its not such a big deal-- they just wait out the 5 minutes and that is it. Same thing happens every day in the city- get behind a slow moving municipal back hoe for example. The real argument is about what someone should do to promote bicycling. You can promote cycling many ways -- you can both, participate in CM and writing letters. These activities are not mutually exclusive.
I think that CM:
1) Promotes the use of bicycles. Why? Because, more people participate and tell others.
2) The activity has to jar motorists brains a bit. Sure some are filled with hate but also some might say hey that is a good alternative to cars. I think that there is a net gain in the promotion of bikes.
3) CM does not promote driving your bike like a 3000 pound car. By this I mean that since you are participating in a unlawful behavior running lights, parading w/o permits and what have you, you are paying more attention to what is happening around you. During the organized rides like Pedal Pittsburgh, cyclists become oblivious to the fact that they are traffic and ride through lights and stops like they where in a parade.
4) CM does not make the assimilated masses happy. Why? Because they are used to getting what they want because the state already gives it to them.
5) CM individuals could better promote advocate for cycling but so could everyone in this forum.
Maybe it is not anyone's intent to disrupt anything. When I am on the road with my bike, I don't intend to disrupt anything. Yet, I am treated as if I were the worst piece of crap since the speed hump. Slowing down traffic.
I'm not treated as a piece of crap at all. People tell me I have a nice bike all the time, and I've never even been honked at. Maybe you ride your bike like a punk-ass kid, or something.
I don't really need to be with a bunch of other would-be anarchists to be a Critical Mass. From the point of view of the motorist, I am a Critical Mass of one.
You can be a Critical Mass of One if you'd like. I'll be a cyclist. I don't dig kicking in car fenders and making an ass out of myself.
It's not about Critical Mass. It's about the right to sit in front of the bus. It's about the right to peaceably assemble.
Except, almost universally, CM is not peacable. Why do you keep missing that point? I peaceably assemble with 40+ riders every weekend, and we peacably sit "in the front of the bus" for our group rides. No one even honks.
Ultimately, it's about the right to silently speak about much larger issues of oil and war, while holding onto handlebars, instead of the steering wheel.
You really ought to pick one line of rhetoric and stick with it, it'd make your argument sound a lot stronger.
- Warren
The First Amendment does not protect CM, because CM (intentionally or unintentionally) almost always turns into a fender-kicking disruptive malignancy. Get that through your skull. You don't have the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, and you don't have the right to cause mass disruption in a city.
- Warren
Almost always turns into a fender-kicking disruptive malignancy? I've been on the last 4 SF CM rides and have not seen that. I wonder were you've gotten those obsevations.
You can be a Critical Mass of One if you'd like. I'll be a cyclist. I don't dig kicking in car fenders and making an ass out of myself.
Pure slander. Stop making things up.
Almost always turns into a fender-kicking disruptive malignancy? I've been on the last 4 SF CM rides and have not seen that. I wonder were you've gotten those obsevations.
Well, hey, it was my fender that got kicked in. I was on a date in SF, with my date in the car. I happened to be the first in line at a red light when CM swept through, blocked the intersection, got off their bikes, and started holding their bikes up over their heads. Someone behind me honked, then lots of honking and yelling ensued. In the mayhem, one rider began pounding on my car hood -- why, I don't know. I was trying to avoid eye-contact. I opened the window and yelled to the guy to stop it, at which point he kicked in my fender. I had to get a new quarter-panel, and it cost me $500. Most ironic was that my bike rack was still mounted to the car, and I had been riding my own bike not more than two hours earlier.
Yes, my personal interaction with CM has tainted my impression of everyone who participates in it. I can't imagine how other motorists, even less sympathetic to the pro-bike movement than I, must feel.
- Warren
Pure slander. Stop making things up.
Want me to find the receipt for my fender?
- Warren
brokenrobot
08-26-05, 02:15 PM
The First Amendment does not protect CM, because CM (intentionally or unintentionally) almost always turns into a fender-kicking disruptive malignancy.
Actually, in my experience, CM *never* turns into a fender-kicking disruptive malignancy. But then I'm certain you know better than I what goes on, since you never go yourself... I have, in fact, seen only one violent interaction between morotists and cyclists on a CM ride, and that interaction occurred when rap star Foxy Brown (or her driver) deliberately ran over a cyclist, after which several other riders slapped her car, which did absolutely no damage but did serve to prevent her leaving until the police arrived.
Note: I no longer ride CM. But I attend and observe the gathering in Union Square prior to CM every month, and I observe a series of intersections as the ride goes by each month.
It's quite common for riders to attempt self-policing through fliers reminding people of traffic laws and of the importance of cooperating with the police; last month, there were fliers asking everyone to stop at every red light, which riders overwhelmingly obeyed. (In the eight intersections I watched, I saw only two riders run teh red light. One of them later proved to be a police undercover, and the other crossed the intersection between two police scooters that were running the light with flashers on).
I can't testify as to the reasons behind the police crackdown in NYC, but I strongly suspect that they were more political than traffic-flow oriented. Even if the crackdown started because of lawless behavior among cyclists, however, there has been no evident lawlessness in recent months, and the crackdown hasn't let up accordingly... And if, as appears to be the case, riders are being arrested because of their perceived political beliefs and not because they're breaking any law, I've got a problem with that.
brokenrobot
08-26-05, 02:21 PM
Well, hey, it was my fender that got kicked in. I was on a date in SF, with my date in the car. I happened to be the first in line at a red light when CM swept through, blocked the intersection, got off their bikes, and started holding their bikes up over their heads. Someone behind me honked, then lots of honking and yelling ensued. In the mayhem, one rider began pounding on my car hood -- why, I don't know. I was trying to avoid eye-contact. I opened the window and yelled to the guy to stop it, at which point he kicked in my fender. I had to get a new quarter-panel, and it cost me $500. Most ironic was that my bike rack was still mounted to the car, and I had been riding my own bike not more than two hours earlier.
Yes, my personal interaction with CM has tainted my impression of everyone who participates in it. I can't imagine how other motorists, even less sympathetic to the pro-bike movement than I, must feel.
- Warren
That's a real shame, and I hope the kids who did it have been jailed for subsequent violent acts, if they weren't arrested that night; their behavior is totally unacceptable in ANY society, and their kind isn't welcome to ride with me and mine. I also hope that your admittedly terrible experience hasn't led you to beleive that even those riders who do NOT abuse other people and their property - and would never even DREAM of doing so - deserve to be jailed because of the actions of some stranger who did a bad thing in another city long ago. New York rides are NOT that kind of abusive, and never have been in the several years I've participated (and now observed without riding).
Want me to find the receipt for my fender?
- Warren
Yup. While I'm up enjoying the wonderfull friday afternoon in San Fransisco, drinking brew, eating burrito, meeting all my friends and riding my bike in safety of numbers. You go and try and prove your knot headed point. I haven't kicked any cars and never will. If I see any of that, I'll try to stop it.
I'll say hi to Chris Carllson for you.
Get over it. Critical Mass will go on. The price of gas will continue to go up. Wars over access to oil will continue. Until it doesn't.
How high does the price of gas have to get before EVERYONE is anti-car?
I also hope that your admittedly terrible experience hasn't led you to beleive that even those riders who do NOT abuse other people and their property - and would never even DREAM of doing so - deserve to be jailed because of the actions of some stranger who did a bad thing in another city long ago. New York rides are NOT that kind of abusive, and never have been in the several years I've participated (and now observed without riding).
Nope, I don't agree with throwing innocent people in jail. At the same time, I think CM is just entertainment at the expense of other people's time and money, and I wish it didn't exist. I'll never ride in one. I'll take my pleasant VC group rides any day, since they're less stressful, better exercise, and likely do more for bicycle advocacy than anything you'll ever do in a CM ride.
- Warren
Yup. While I'm up enjoying the wonderfull friday afternoon in San Fransisco, drinking brew, eating burrito, meeting all my friends and riding my bike in safety of numbers. You go and try and prove your knot headed point. I haven't kicked any cars and never will. If I see any of that, I'll try to stop it.
I'll say hi to Chris Carllson for you.
I'll be enjoying my own group ride elsewhere. I won't be threatened by the police, and no one will try to kill me. I like it that way.
The price of gas will continue to go up. Wars over access to oil will continue. Until it doesn't.
And CM will do absolutely dick to stop any of it. As you said, get over it. Enjoy the adrenaline rush tonight, but get down off the soapbox.
- Warren
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 02:29 PM
I'll take my pleasant VC group rides any day, since they're less stressful, better exercise, and likely do more for bicycle advocacy than anything you'll ever do in a CM ride.
- Warren
Pleasant VC group ride aka Critical Mass. "Impeding" traffic.
Pleasant VC group ride aka Critical Mass. "Impeding" traffic.
I'd like a translation, please. I speak English, Spanish, and German, and will accept a translation in any of the three.
- Warren
I'll be enjoying my own group ride elsewhere. I won't be threatened by the police, and no one will try to kill me. I like it that way.
Which ride is that, I'm just interested?
Western Wheelers?
Almaden?
Grizzly peak?
Marin?
Fremont Freewheelers?
I've done them all.
BTW I won't be threatened by any police, nor will anyone try to kill me. You're the one on the soapbox.
I won't be threatened by any police, nor will anyone try to kill me.
Isn't that what this thread is about? The poor down-trodded CM riders, just out to peacefully advance bicycling advocacy, but instead being bullied by the big meanie cops?
- Warren
Isn't that what this thread is about? The poor down-trodded CM riders, just out to peacefully advance bicycling advocacy, but instead being bullied by the big meanie cops?
- Warren
That's in NYC not SF. SF has been peacefull.
Dude it's friday, chill. Tommorow I'll be on a club ride, you won't even know you are riding next to me.
barenakedbiker
08-26-05, 02:48 PM
Cyclists are an opressed minority comparable to blacks during the Jim Crow laws? That's one of the least sensible, and most insensitive arguments you can possibly make.
- Warren
Yes. It is. Unfortunately, the Illinois State Supreme Court disagrees. Boub V Wayne.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If CM didn't exist, there'd be no extra scrutiny on Friday evenings. I certainly don't side with the police, but I recognize their humanity. They're ticked off about having to deal with scoff-law CM riders and, like any human, cannot be expected to correctly disambiguate one VC cyclist from thousands of other non-VC cyclists 100% of the time. If five bank robbers are running down the sidewalk, and you're running alongside them, you can expect to get taken down, too.
If you're pissed about the extra scrutiny on Friday evenings, direct your misgivings at the CM riders, not the NYPD.
- Warren
So then you admit that the police don't just allow you to ride your bike in NY? Just want to be clear about that. I agree that if you are running down the street with a bunch of bank robbers you might get arrested, but afterwards when the evidence presented clearly shows you to be innocent they would probabaly let you go. Not so here. Your arrested, spend a night in jail and leave with a ticket. Only after you go to court along with the video tapes and photographs and eye-witnesses proving you did absolutely nothing wrong are the charges dropped.
Let's also not forget that CM has occured in NY for over a decade. There wasn't much difference between the July CM and the September CM (August I'll admit was different, but the circumstances were completely different as well). October was pretty much the same too, except everyone was in costume for Halloween. If memory serves me correctly November wasn't much different either. So why, after ten years of a relatively peaceful bike ride have the police decided not only to crack down on CM, but to go to the extremes? It's only been in more recent times that I've seen CM getting really confrontational in Manhattan, and I think that is largely attributed to the incredible show of force by the police. That is why my misgivings are directed at the Police instead of the riders.
I'm sorry if your experience with CM has been negative, but that doesn't make every CM evil and full of anarchists and just plain full of doodie heads.
Dchiefransom
08-26-05, 08:06 PM
I never see a car come to a complete stop at a red light before making a right turn.
I was going to say something about this, but remembered that you are in my area, and realized that this is actually an understatement. ;)
Dchiefransom
08-26-05, 08:12 PM
I'm thinking that as things stand now, if 50 riders showed up at CM in NYC, and rode TOTALLY within the law, they would still be beaten up, have their bikes stolen by the police, and be taken to jail.
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