Foo - Is there anyway to rebuild New Orleans above sea level?

Let's say katrina levels the city, wipes everything out to where it has to be rebuilt. Can New Orleans be rebuilt above sea level? And why in the world was it below sea level in the first place. Did they not know the saying, "It is a foolish man who builds his house upon the sand." when the city was first established & being built?

I am sorry for what ever damage Katrina might cause & I am sorry if anyone loses their life because of Katrina. But if you live in a city that is below sea level & a hurricane does hit, isn't that kind of like thumbing your nose at mother nature & thinking she will not hurt you? If it is well then you deserve to pay the price for your own arrogance. Maybe Katrina will wipe the slate clean & force the city of New Orleans to pay for their arrogance & maybe this time they will get it right & raise the city to be above sea level.

My guess is it will cost more to rebuild above sea level than to move to a location above sea level.

Why would we rebuild the city right on a regular hurricane path again? Better off just to let it die with dignity and be glad we were able to enjoy it while it lasted.

if you live in a city that is below sea level & a hurricane does hit, isn't that kind of like thumbing your nose at mother nature & thinking she will not hurt you? If it is well then you deserve to pay the price for your own arrogance. Maybe Katrina will wipe the slate clean & force the city of New Orleans to pay for their arrogance & maybe this time they will get it right & raise the city to be above sea level.
Nobody built this city intentionally under sea level and on a hurricane path. Read your history books. The reason people still live here is the same reason people still live in quake-ridden California and hurricane-ridden Cuba/Florida, Froze-over Moscow, etc.

Why would we rebuild the city right on a regular hurricane path again? Better off just to let it die with dignity and be glad we were able to enjoy it while it lasted.

The US didn't build New Orleans, the French built New Orleans, we just got the city via the Louisiana Purchase.

The way it looks New Orleans would need a miracle to get away relatively unharmed.

Nobody built this city intentionally under sea level and on a hurricane path. Read your history books. The reason people still live here is the same reason people still live in quake-ridden California and hurricane-ridden Cuba/Florida, Froze-over Moscow, etc.

I do believe they knew about sea level back then.

it would cost billions to move in all of the landfill, move out everybody, move in everybody.
Probably more cost effective to do the thing that will never happen in our lifetimes, move elsewhere.
I think new orleans is going to get some damage, hefty damage. But i doubt it will level the city

The US didn't build New Orleans, the French built New Orleans, we just got the city via the Louisiana Purchase.
Thanks for the history refresher, but I'm pretty acquainted with the heritage of the city where I've lived for all 20 years of my life. When I say "We", I am speaking as a citizen of New Orleans and a tax payer, not some abstract collective continental-wide "nation".

it would cost billions to move in all of the landfill, move out everybody, move in everybody.
Probably more cost effective to do the thing that will never happen in our lifetimes, move elsewhere.
I think new orleans is going to get some damage, hefty damage. But i doubt it will level the city

New Orleans is screwed basically, the last cat 5 hurricane that hit there killed 8,000 people. Experts are saying this is the 1 in 500 hurricanes for New Orleans. Even if a building is still standing, it could be damaged to the point that it's not worth repairing it. The current city isn't really designed for a significant hurricane.

Thanks for the history refresher, but I'm pretty acquainted with the heritage of the city where I've lived for all 20 years of my life. When I say "We", I am speaking as a citizen of New Orleans and a tax payer, not some abstract collective continental-wide "nation".

I can understand that, I'm just trying to hold a discussion.

The cost of this hurricane will be paid by insurance.
After 9/11 insurance rates jumped all over the country to cover the cost. I think we will see insurance rates jump all over the country to cover the cost of rebuilding.

45% chance of being hit within about 60 miles of the center of the hurricane.

I pray for their safety and the leaders to have wisdom.

I agree with you, but as I'm watching the weather channel, I see that one beach in Florida was rebuilt after the hurricane season last year. They piped in sand from one mile out in the ocean and raised the beach 12 feet. Now, it will be washed away again.

I have a problem with constantly rebuilding beaches with federal funds. Most of this just benefits the hotels anyway. If my money is helping these poor people living in small homes or in trailer parks, great. I'll even donate more to help them. But rebuilding beaches year after year, as is done along the coast, really annoys me.

So anyway, back to your question, if federal funds are used to rebuild beaches, I'm sure that federal funds will be used to rebuild New Orleans, if for no other reason then to ease the burden on the insurance companies. All the policies have clauses that make the policy the last resort - if other money is available, people have to use that first. So federal relief helps people without insurance, and helps the insurance companies also. After all, having the government support business is the great american way. Government support is only a problem in this country when the support is for the poor.


Why would we rebuild the city right on a regular hurricane path again? Better off just to let it die with dignity and be glad we were able to enjoy it while it lasted.

Here is what I don't understand. Why are they moving people into the Super Dome? Isn't it in the city of New Orleans? Which is below sea level. They have basically moved everyone who could not get out of the city into a giant, currently unfilled water tank. Even if the dome is closed the water will still get in one way or another delaying the inevitable. Talk about stupidity on the mayors part.

rs woods, why are you posting instead of evacuating? Where are you posting from anway? Did you take your bike with you? If it were me I would evacuate now & post in a forum later.

Here is what I don't understand. Why are they moving people into the Super Dome? Isn't it in the city of New Orleans? Which is below sea level. They have basically moved everyone who could not get out of the city into a giant, currently unfilled water tank. Even if the dome is closed the water will still get in one way or another delaying the inevitable. Talk about stupidity on the mayors part.

rs woods, why are you posting instead of evacuating? Where are you posting from anway? Did you take your bike with you? If it were me I would evacuate now & post in a forum later.

I agree with the thing with the superdome.

He probably evacuated already and is either posting at an internet cafe or from a wireless system with a laptop.

Yea, it's almost logistically possiable to raise the elevation of entire region. I wonder if they can fill in my neighborhood, I'm sick of riding up these damn hills.

I don't understand the problem with raising the level of a city, especially if mother nature wipes it out. Look at the island of Manhatten. Where it now sits was once nothing but water. They filled it in & built an entire city on it & it is above sea level.

So why, besides cost, could they not do that with New Orleans of it is wiped out? If cost is such a huge concern then only rebuild what is wiped out by katrina, if she only destroys part of the city. Rebuild that part above sea level. Then when the next hurrican hits & wipes out more rebuild that section above sea level & so on & so forth until the entire city is above sea level.

If there are registered historical sites then do what is needed to safely raise them above sea level or rebuild them. And if they are registered as a protected site then aren't they covered by federal or some other kind of funds?

I don't know if the OP question was facetious, but I'll respond to the "why'd they build the city there" part. Nobody really decides to build a city. It's a slow evolution. A few people might settle in an undeveloped place because it offers economic or aesthetic benefits. Some other people join them. Businesses sprout. More people come. More businesses develop. More traffic appears. Streets get paved. Years, decades go by with no flooding. You see where I'm going.

About the Superdome: I heard on the radio that only the upper levels of seating are being used as shelter; the field is closed due to the possibility of it flooding.




Look at the island of Manhatten. Where it now sits was once nothing but water. They filled it in & built an entire city on it & it is above sea level.

Did you just make this up?? Who filled it in, the indians? That's who the white men bought the island from.

at least it will wash all the urine off the streets.

at least it will wash all the urine off the streets.

and replace it with millions of tons of seawater mixed with raw sewage

The Superdome is most stable structure to house the citizens of N.O. who do not have the transportation means to leave the city in a safe manner. The dome provides a place that will be above any flooding during the storm. It's not a permanent home for refugees, but provides a safe haven during the worst of the hit. It's better to concentrate the population in one central (relatively) high and safe place than try to save people from their flooded out homes post-landfall. That's just smart planning.

Also, the whole city is not below sea level, just certain parts. The levees, though, rise up higher and thus the bowl-effect that will cause problems. Lessons learned from the Midwest floods of 1993.... the higher you build the levee, the higher the level of the river will go. Breach the levee and the water will find its way to low land. Mother Nature does not care what lengths humans go to.

Here's hoping everyone stays high and dry.... dang. New Orleans is a fun city....

I wouldn't be suprirsed if a greater portion of the damage is done after the hurricane hits. The last I heard the super dome had lost part of its roof and was leaking. There seems to be something that may avert alot of flooding however.

"Random Newscaster" was in the gridlocked mass exodus, said he'd been able to travel 35 miles in 4.5 hours. Wonder if anybody evacuated by bike?

Did you just make this up?? Who filled it in, the indians? That's who the white men bought the island from.


yeah, it's not true. there are maps dating way back before any real development that show the island as a land mass above water. it's true that they filled in the swampy areas and streams to build on, but definitely not the whole island.

There is a section of Chicago, right around the mouth of the Chicago River, that used to be underwater and was filled in to make land. But that's a tiny area compared to the area of New Orleans.

Instead of piping in sand or landfill of some kind, why not use concrete and steel to lift the buildings up? In fact, all buildings destroyed could have two levels (or more) of parking garage built under those buildings. Drive the cars out when a hurricane approaches?

Has the storm passed over New Orleans? I still severely doubt there will be a "total city wipeout"

I wouldn't be suprirsed if a greater portion of the damage is done after the hurricane hits. The last I heard the super dome had lost part of its roof and was leaking. There seems to be something that may avert alot of flooding however.
CNN Story (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/29/superdome/index.html)

Dang... if the super-structrure dome is taking damage, just imagine what's happening to all of the non-concrete reinforced buildings in the Crecent City....

keep praying, chanting, sending positive vibes, whatever, down to the Delta...

Houston area news is all about the mass exodus. Lots of Louisiana residents trying to find a hotel in the Houston area.

This morning there was a couple stating that their alarm company called them. Turns out a few hours into their evacuation, looters hit their house. Now that sucks on so many levels.

Latest news is there is about 6 feet of water on the east end of New Orleans, and the pumps are not working. The waves are coming over the Levees for Lake Ponchatrain (sp?).

I hate to see the bill for cleaning out that toxic lake getting created right now.

My aunt and uncle live right outside of Pascagoula, MS. She called a little earlier and was in tears. Apparently, from what I got from the conversation, she lost everything. Havent gotten the full story yet though.

mscycler

Yeah. That's what I figured. Wouldn't be suprised if Looters & damage done from waste material/aftermath flooding/rain are going to be the biggest or 2nd biggest causes of damamge.

This is horrible for all the people involved. Here I'm sitting in Sunny Colorado with temps in the 90's.
I know how much I love my home and would really hate to see something happen to it, so I'm very sorry to all the people who have or whom already have loss their homes.

Thankfully, the Army Corps of Engineers doesn't read this thread.

Thankfully, the Army Corps of Engineers doesn't read this thread.

Just wondering what you mean by that?

I can't tell if there is some sarcasm... and if there is.. the reason for it...

explain?

After the Hurricane of 1900 swept over and destroyed Galveston TX, and drowned 6000 folks the entire city,(the, then city was mostly at the east end) was raised by the Corps Of Engineers, EVERY building that survived was raised with jacks, including churches and commercial buildings, the Gulf side of the island had a seawall 25' tall. The whole island was sand filled from 25' at the gulf to 12' facing the mainland. I owned a house there for sev years when I lived in Houston, and we found fotos in the attic that showed the city after the storm and while it was being elevated. Was NOT a pleasant site to see, and the stories passed on by the survivors were horrifying

Disregard last.
I mis-spoke.

Why would you want to build New Orleans above sea level? Part of the charm of the city is smelling the fetid waste struggling to escape the sewers.

What of the mausoleums and above-ground cemetaries?? :eek:

Edit: It's a sad time for the Southeast. My heart goes out to all those who've lost loved ones.

After watching some of the news footage of New Orleans, I must apologize for my earlier remarks. It looks like Katrina is one very big storm that's causing a lot of damage, hardship and deaths. New Orleans is a unique city with a lot of character, and I'm sorry it 's been hit so hard by the storm.

Yeah, watching CNN makes you feel so small and helpless in the scheme of things. Folks were stranded in trees and on top of houses and cars. The water level keeps rising every minute and major hospitals are at risk of losing backup generator power as the water rises.

Any mention of foreign aid from the 1000s of visitors who have enjoyed NOLA over the decades? Or just mass wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth?

Sure it's possible to raise the ground level of New Orleans but it is prohibitively expensive and mighty disruptive to an active city to do so.

Other projects have made massive changes to the landscapes of cities but have occurred before the project area is totally urbanized. The Back Bay of Boston is reclaimed land that was filled in in order to create dry land. The City of Sacramento was raised approximately ten feet in the 1860s in response to heavy flooding by the American and Sacramento Rivers.

Sacramento, however, was a new city of mostly simple brick and wood structures. They accomplished the raising by requiring every parcel owner to raise their own parcel to the specified height. Most buildings were simply altered to have their second floor become their primary floor with the street and sidewalks built to the new level. Many areas of the downtown have tunnels and basements that remain unchanged from the 1860s.
The constant construction associated with raising the street level would disrupt any modern city for years.

Additionally, sea level is not level. Average Sea Level (ASL) is a mathematic formulation that is changes over time. The most vocalized form of change is rising sea levels due to polar ice melts. Isostatic rebound is another form of sea level change in which the tectonic plates compress, rebound, or tilt in response to pressure change after the last ice age. This introduces a unknown variable to the raising a city- i.e. how high should they go. Do they change the city level to accommodate today's ASL or try to predict (on very limited data) future ASLs and change to that? Who pays for this massive undertaking?

This political question alone will kill an proposal to raise the city. New Orleans cannot afford to raise itself and too many cities face the same or similar problems for the federal government to pay for it.

Any mention of foreign aid from the 1000s of visitors who have enjoyed NOLA over the decades? Or just mass wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth?
You forgot "rending of garments".
I don't give our "Fearless Leader" a whole lot of credit (deservedly so in most instances) but I will certainly give him props when it comes to getting the ball moving when it comes to Hurricanes. Last year I suspected it was due to his brother being our Governor, but I have to hand it to him on this one.
Hopefully FEMA will be able to follow through in a timely manner. I also hope that FEMA will soon finish it's work here in FL as we still have folks living in FEMA trailers waiting to resume their lives.

The most vocalized form of change is rising sea levels due to polar ice melts.
Well, if the ice caps melt a lot more, go to the Carolinas... they've got mountains :D

Much of the Netherlands is below sea level. The famous Dutch windmills were there to pump the water up and out.

For N_C: Something else the Netherlands is known for is cycling. Just about everybody does it and almost nobody wears a helmet.

Biking in Amsterdam:
http://photos17.flickr.com/20056228_3769288ca5_m.jpg

Wonder how many of them actually get to 25-30mph though :p

The cost of this hurricane will be paid by insurance.
PBS coverage indicates private insurance will not cover flood damage as that risk was not insurable in that geographic area. Government flood coverage (i.e., US taxpayers) will pay for most flood-caused replacement.

Many, if not most homes and small businesses that flooded up to the rafters will end up simply leveled, as the cost of detoxification and rebuilding would be uneconomic. Restoration of the city isn't simply a matter of draining clean water. It would be preferable to move the remaining structures to higher ground, but there are office and hotel towers and heavy stone construction buildings that can't be raised on stilts much less moved; it probably would be cheaper to rebuild those damaged floors and replace blown-out glass rather than take down whole structures. It is because of those large buildings that the city probably will stay in place, but it won't have the same authentic feel and historic character. I hope it doesn't result in a Disney-esqe New Orleans.



There is a section of Chicago, right around the mouth of the Chicago River, that used to be underwater and was filled in to make land. But that's a tiny area compared to the area of New Orleans.
Not just a section. Much of the lakefront, from McCormick Place (East building) up through Oak Street, was reclaimed marshland or landfill, one reason why railroad tracks and yards weren't seen in the 1850s as an eyesore right on the lakefront downtown. The museum campus (Adler Planetarium, Field Museum and Shedd Aquarium) were raised on trucked-in landfill; landfill was used further north including debris from the 1871 fire. Most structures between Michigan Ave east to the lake, north of the Field Museum are on landfill or drained marsh (e.g. Grant Park east of where the Art Institute sits; land far underneath Millennium Park, Illinois Center, Lake Point Tower) extending north to at least to the river at Wacker, and probably north of the river most of the land east of Tribune Tower. Michigan Ave. used to be the east-most street in the Loop. Lincoln Park used to be a marshy lakefront cemetary, before exhumations and then expanded east with landfill. That's dozens (if not hundreds) of acres, today astonishingly expensive to do all at once.

From the Chicago Historical Society, e.g.,
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1326.html
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/3713.html
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/955.html

"In some places, Chicago's downtown shoreline lies a half-mile east of where early European settlers found it, the result of landfills created for private profit and public improvements. The Chicago River was given a direct entrance to the lake, and in 1852 the Illinois Central Railroad was allowed to enter the city on an offshore trestle, entrapping a basin that soon became a polluted backwater and which was filled in with debris from the Fire of 1871. Groins built to protect the river mouth caught sand currents from the north in the Streeterville area, where landowners also undertook landfill operations. Lincoln Park was expanded into the lake beginning in the 1880s, while Grant and Burnham Parks were greatly enlarged by landfill, as suggested in the 1909 Plan of Chicago. The Plan also recommended a chain of offshore islands, of which only Northerly Island was actually built."

Source: Newberry Library
The Electronic Encyclopedia of Chicago © 2005 Chicago Historical Society.

Perhaps New Orleans might adopt similar major projects, but it took 100 years to construct Chicago's lakefront.

Let's say katrina levels the city, wipes everything out to where it has to be rebuilt. Can New Orleans be rebuilt above sea level? And why in the world was it below sea level in the first place. Did they not know the saying, "It is a foolish man who builds his house upon the sand." when the city was first established & being built?

I am sorry for what ever damage Katrina might cause & I am sorry if anyone loses their life because of Katrina. But if you live in a city that is below sea level & a hurricane does hit, isn't that kind of like thumbing your nose at mother nature & thinking she will not hurt you? If it is well then you deserve to pay the price for your own arrogance. Maybe Katrina will wipe the slate clean & force the city of New Orleans to pay for their arrogance & maybe this time they will get it right & raise the city to be above sea level.

That's not the problem. Hurricanes have been around for as long as people have lived in that area. Plans and technologies are in place to deal with it such as levees, flood-control canals, teams of emergency personnel in waiting (National Guard). Problem with this instance is this:

- June 16: $20 million of the $37 million allocated to Louisiana for coastal restoration and flood control is cut. Louisiana has been working on flood-control & relief efforts since the 1960s and these funds were an integral part in sustaining these projects.

- Louisiana's Army Corp of Engineers had $44 lower budget in 2005 compared to 2001

- Louisiana's Army Corp of Engineers faces a $71.2 million reduction in their budget for 2006

- 6000 National Guardmen from Louisiana and Mississippi are somewhere else

articles of interest:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ep/didneworleanscatastrophehavetohappen]Yahoo - Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen?
CNN - Mayor blasts failure to patch levee breaches (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.levees)

Also notice the dichotomy between the reports of these two pictures?

1. A young man walks through chest deep flood water after looting a grocery store in New Orleans on Tuesday. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/1913/w083049ajpg)

2. Two residents wade through chest-deep water after finding bread and soda from a local grocery store after Hurricane Katrina came through the area in New Orlean (http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/photos_ts_afp/050830071810_shxwaoma_photo1)

Let's say katrina levels the city, wipes everything out to where it has to be rebuilt. Can New Orleans be rebuilt above sea level? And why in the world was it below sea level in the first place. Did they not know the saying, "It is a foolish man who builds his house upon the sand." when the city was first established & being built?

I am sorry for what ever damage Katrina might cause & I am sorry if anyone loses their life because of Katrina. But if you live in a city that is below sea level & a hurricane does hit, isn't that kind of like thumbing your nose at mother nature & thinking she will not hurt you? If it is well then you deserve to pay the price for your own arrogance. Maybe Katrina will wipe the slate clean & force the city of New Orleans to pay for their arrogance & maybe this time they will get it right & raise the city to be above sea level.


I suggest you may want to actually read a history book, learn the history of the city, it will explain why No is where it is, and why NO and almost all major historical ports are in fact at or below sea level.

Believe it or not, there were thinking human beings living their lives on this planet before 1956.

Believe it or not, there were thinking human beings living their lives on this planet before 1956.

But apparently there is a shortage in 2005 of thinking humans among those leading the country:

It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars to rebuild a city that's seven feet under sea level, House Speaker Dennis Hastert said of federal assistance for hurricane-devastated New Orleans.

Democratic lawmakers from Louisiana were quick to disagree Thursday and Hastert sought to clarify the comment during the day.

"It looks like a lot of that place could be bulldozed," the Illinois Republican said in an interview about New Orleans Wednesday with the Daily Herald of Arlington Heights, Ill.

Hastert, in a transcript supplied by the suburban Chicago newspaper, said there was no question that the people of New Orleans would rebuild their city, but noted that federal insurance and other federal aid was involved. "We ought to take a second look at it. But you know we build Los Angeles and San Francisco on top of earthquake fissures and they rebuild too. Stubbornness."
[...]
Asked in the interview whether it made sense to spend billions rebuilding a city that lies below sea level, he replied, "I don't know. That doesn't make sense to me."

Hastert later issued a statement saying he was not "advocating that the city be abandoned or relocated."
(AP, Sept 1, 2005 Washington Post)


For Bush to rationalize admittedly unacceptible inactivity--by explaining he had no idea things were so bad--perfectly exemplifies the pre-election criticism that he does not possess a questioning, curious mind, e.g.:

("not the sort of creative thinker whose mentality is disturbed when reality doesn’t yield to his will. 'What am I doing wrong?' isn’t the kind of question he asks himself," http://www.sobran.com/columns/2005/050712.shtml);
("Conversely, Bush's consistent opinions make me nervous because it appears that new facts, if they actually reach him (which is unlikely), do not make him re-think his views. That is the difference between an intelligent President with an active and curious mind, and a rigid President who takes the information that is given to him without thinking too hard about it," http://www.politicalforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=948);
("Part of the isolation is simply that Bush does not seek out information; he is content to be 'informed' by his staff. His is not a curious mind. Bush has become his own prisoner, unable to make changes in policy or personnel while the world watches in horror," http://www.click2newsites.com/pressrelease07062004-34.htm); etc.