You got doored...or you doored you?

[funtai]

If a bus, or another car for that matter, can fit beside a car, then there is room for a cyclist to ride 5 feet away from that car, by definition.

Unless people park on both sides of the street. Maybe that never happens where you are, but doesn't mean it never happens anywhere.

[Roody]

Ive had a few cases where some idiot in a car tosses his or her door open in my path. You forget one thing about roads and drivers. Many tend to give us no room to breath when passing us. Case in point the moron who passed me at 50 mph with less than a foot to spare while i was on a bridge. Now if this had happened on wooster road where cars park on the far right of the street (bike riders and many drivers call it the 4 mile long parking lot). This year alone there have been no less than 4 car door ripped off by other cars as the person getting out was not paying atention and tossign their door open. Many cars have these nifty wrinkles on their door edge from where they get clipped by other cars. Simply put between yello line and car door zones theres no room left. Wide trucks busses cars etc are always indanger of takeing out a open door. Now try to squeeze your bike in to that (not sure the width of my handle bars but lets say they are 24 inches wide. That means i need at a absoloot min 24.5 inches of space to keep from hitting a door on that road. I dont have that room. Often as seen by 3 cars rubber moldings that i hit and scraped. Cops were called by one of the owners and they ticketed the person who in his car that thought it was cute to squeez me. My bike at the time had a computer on it i was doing 18mph.
If some one had tossed open their door not only would i have hit it so would the moron squeezing me.

Your post makes asumtions that there are always ways to avoid hittign a car door fact is this is not the case. More often than not on a ride of more than a mile there will be many cases on a single ride where its not possible. Maybe you can always avoid them if thats the case than grats cause your very lucky. Most are not so lucky.
Actually, from your post I still don't understand the problem. Where in the road are you riding? Any traffic lane, even the narrowest, is at least 8 feet wide. If you are riding in the center of that lane, you are at least 40 feet from the sides of parked cars. This distance puts you out of the door lane. Obviously, you are not riding in the center of the lane. Why not?

[Roody]

Again you're making an erronous assumption of risk, that door zone riding is more dangerous or unreasonably dangerous AND your pushing your perceptions that don't always work for others (ie that door zones are an option for everyone all the time.)

Most of the bike lanes in San Jose/ SF ARE the door zones. They're painted lanes but still "in the zone." And what about all the narrow city streets where i'm DRIVING in the door zone? Or narrow streets where theres no choice to ride in the zone?
Do you just not ride? I'd rather not ride the zone if i can avoid it but calling it my fault IS the same argument as saying that someone is "asking for it."

C'mon, we all take risks and the rational for what is "reasonable" is not up to you no matter how rude and opinionated you are.I ask you the same question. Where in the road are you riding?

[phinney]

I can remember going to a safe bicycling seminar in the 1960's(!). I rode there on my Sears 5 speed (chrome T-knob frame mounted stick shift with display and banana seat with sissy bar). Part of the safety seminar was a movie and it had a scene showing a cyclist almost getting doored. The safety message was to look for a person in the cars you are passing and if you see one expect them to open the door. It left an impression on me and I've never forgotten it.

In all the riding I've done since I've never even come close to getting doored and don't think I've ever put my self in a situation where I could be doored. Anytime I'm going to pass a car the possibility of dooring always occurs to me.

Until reading about it on these forums I would have always assumed that if I did get doored it would have been my fault because I had learned that I should and can absolutely prevent it from ever happening. I can imagine it would be easy for a person in a car to miss seeing a bicycle coming up from behind. Especially on the passenger side of the vehicle as there are no mirrors for the passenger. Anytime I see someone sitting in their car I expect them not to see me coming and to open the door.

I can no more imagine putting myself in a position to get doored than riding into an intersection without looking to see if a car is about to run the light. Of course I haven't cycled everywhere and can imagine situations as described here where you have to ride through the danger zone while someone is sitting in the car. I guess I'd slow down, use my horn to let the car occupant know I was coming, and be ready to stop.

[Helmet Head]

If you cyle ANYWHERE and get involved in a collision it's your fault for riding where you could have a collision. No if's, no but's, no maybe - What a load of B.S.!!
Well, it is my attitude that if I have a collision, it will quite probably be at least partially my fault.

To those who believe cyclists are never at fault and it's always the fault of the evil motorists, my attitude could be seen as that described above.

In particular, if someone accidentally forgets to check before they open their door, and a cyclist who happens to be exercising his legal right to ride in door zones crashes into it, that's unforgiveable and clearly the fault of the door opener. The cyclist is totally innocent. Never mind the thousands of times that person has opened his door without checking without incident. Never mind that it's the cyclist who gets injured and who has the majority of interest in avoiding the dooring. Never mind all that, it makes no sense to blame the cyclist. It's the door opener's fault.

Suit yourself. You are free to look at it either way. I'll just bet that those of us who choose to view it as our responsibility to avoid door zones are much less likely to door ourselves than those of you who blame the door opener. Your choice.

[Laika]

You obviously have an ax to grind.

Pot, kettle, etc.

['nother]

In particular, if someone accidentally forgets to check before they open their door, and a cyclist who happens to be exercising his legal right to ride in door zones crashes into it, that's unforgiveable and clearly the fault of the door opener. The cyclist is totally innocent. Never mind the thousands of times that person has opened his door without checking without incident. Never mind that it's the cyclist who gets injured and who has the majority of interest in avoiding the dooring. Never mind all that, it makes no sense to blame the cyclist. It's the door opener's fault.

Hey, congrats, you finally figured it out!

We stopped blaming rape victims for "wearing suggestive clothing" or "being in a bad neighborhood" like, what, 20 years ago?

Few people are looking for trouble but sometimes . . . there you are. It makes no sense in those cases to say, "well, you stupidass, it's all your fault, shouldn'ta been in the Door Zone, and by the way can I tell you how great VC is? On second thought you're probably too dumb to understand it so I think I'll just get outta here and start another troll . . . er, uh, thread in BF."
'
Get real, dude. Do you guys still wonder why people think you're elitists? Or do you even care?

[red house]

Some one once told me that if you KNOW you are going to get doored..-and it is (obviously) too late to avoid fate...-that it is better to aim for the center of the door rather than the edge...-some one's advice to me, (his face had stitches from a door incident, btw)

[I-Like-To-Bike]

In reference to a certain VC proselytizer and his ilk:

Get real, dude. Do you guys still wonder why people think you're elitists? Or do you even care?
I don't believe "elitists" is the proper term to describe the individuals in question. It implies that those individuals do indeed possess a certain superior skill or knowledge. I don't buy it.

I think a better and more accurate description is pompous, smug, know-it-alls who are self proclaimed experts on all bicycling issues.

To answer your question. Of course they don't care; IAW dogma - only mendacious, ignorant, and/or misinformed cyclists suffering from various forms of incompetence or mental weakness (i.e. peculiar susceptibility to superstitions and taboos) don't agree with them.

[Splat-NJ]

No one should get doored. Drivers need to be alert and look before acting, whether it's when driving or exiting the vehicle. More and more drivers seem to be NOT using their blinkers, NOT stopping for stop signs, etc. so it doesn't surprise me when I get a driver who just flings open their door and then looks at me like an idiot. If you ride in the "door zone" then try to be alert and prepared for these things.

[Swami'sPrincess]

Helmet Head
You're killing me... where do you ride? Around Lake Miramar???? I DARE you to ride 5' off the cars parked on hwy 101 in North County... You will be mowed down by a bus in less than 5 minutes- I can give you the numbers off the buses if you like. HH it's not a perfect world baby, and it's never going to be. Do the best you can, pray to whatever you believe in and roll the dice. Noone wants to die or be mamed but it's somewhat " assumed risk."

[Helmet Head]

I DARE you to ride 5' off the cars parked on hwy 101 in North County...
I do it almost every Saturday morning, whether I'm riding alone, with a buddy, or with a group (SDBC).

I'll also be doing it later today, as part of SDBC's (http://www.sdbc.org) 6th Annual Cecilia "Cecy" Krone Memorial Ride (http://www.sdbc.org/assets/cecyweb.pdf).

There is no way I'm going to risk my life (you can die getting doored at 25 mph) in order to appease a bus driver or anyone else, especially when they have a whole 'nother lane to use to pass me. Even more dangerous than getting doored, is swerving left to avoid an opening door, and getting run over from behind in the process (http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/top/features/documents/02379848.htm). I'll put up with the honking (which is very rare anyway), thank you very much.

As you know, 101 in North County is a straight road, and very popular for cycling. Speed limits and actual speeds are very reasonable. Avoiding the door zone on this road, or any other road I have ever ridden on, is no problem at all.

Serge

[Swami'sPrincess]

I would welcome a honk from bus 1102...my problem with him is that he has buzzed me (several times) less than a foot off the left side of my bars-the draft pulles me in, that's how close the jackass has gotten and he had another empty lane he could have gone into to leave a safety cushion.
I ride there nearly every day.

[Helmet Head]

Whenever a cyclist is buzzed, it is almost always an indication that they are riding too far to the ride, and inviting motorists to squeeze into the lane with them. If you leave a foot or two of space to the curb or parked cars on your right, then you are indicating that is sufficient space. If it's sufficient space on the right,it's only logical for passing motorists to think it should be sufficient space on the left. Then they misguage how far they are from you, and get even closer.

I find that if I leave X feet to the right, motorists passing me usually do so with at least about X feet on my left. The big exception is when leaving X feet on the right still leaves enough room for them to squeeze into the lane with me. In that case I have to move even further to the left, to make sure it's clear to them that I want them to at least partially visit the adjacent lane to their left as they pass me. Today we ended up riding mostly down the middle of the right lane on 101 all the way from Carlsbad to Torrey Pines (from there to LJ Village Square it's mostly bike lanes which is a new problem).

This technique works on LJ Village Square as well as 101 and countless other roads.

Serge

[Swami'sPrincess]

Whenever a cyclist is buzzed, it is almost always an indication that they are riding too far to the ride, and inviting motorists to squeeze into the lane with them. If you leave a foot or two of space to the curb or parked cars on your right, then you are indicating that is sufficient space. If it's sufficient space on the right,it's only logical for passing motorists to think it should be sufficient space on the left. Then they misguage how far they are from you, and get even closer.

I find that if I leave X feet to the right, motorists passing me usually do so with at least about X feet on my left. The big exception is when leaving X feet on the right still leaves enough room for them to squeeze into the lane with me. In that case I have to move even further to the left, to make sure it's clear to them that I want them to at least partially visit the adjacent lane to their left as they pass me. Today we ended up riding mostly down the middle of the right lane on 101 all the way from Carlsbad to Torrey Pines (from there to LJ Village Square it's mostly bike lanes which is a new problem).

This technique works on LJ Village Square as well as 101 and countless other roads.

Serge

No matter what anyone does, it it's not the way YOU think it should be done it seems to be WRONG. Riding from 92008 to 92037 and blocking the whole flipping lane the entire time is ridiculas unless your pelaton was so large it needed that much room. Who do you think you are? YOU must be the person that gives the rest of us a bad rap.

[Helmet Head]

Princess,

Please do not misrepresent what I am saying. "We ended up riding mostly down the middle of the right lane" is not the same as, "blocking the whole flipping lane the entire time".

There were about 30 or 40 in our group.

When riding alone or in smaller groups, of course I move aside when it is safe and reasonable to do so. But moving into the door zone of parked cars does not count as a safe and reasonable thing to do!

All along 101 south the parking is not constant. There are breaks where the right lane is wide enough to safely share. But, offhand, I can't think of any place along that stretch where there is onstreet parking and the right lane is wide enough for a cyclist to share it safely with a car.

I don't know if you are familiar with the words, "a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane." These are words taken from the CA "keep to the side law", CA VC 21202 (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm), that specifies when cyclists are not required to keep to the right side of the road. We are specifically exempted from having to do so when the lane "is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane."

Here's is the law in entirety (my emphasis):



21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.

Treespeed has posted (I believe earlier in this thread) that a cop once told him that CA state law does not recognize a door zone as a hazard. It's true that the law does not explicitly address door zones, one way or the other. I don't know if it has ever gone to court, but I know it would be very easy to show (record of dooring injuries and even deaths) that a door zone constitutes a "condition that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge" of the road.

I continue to be astounded to the number of cyclists here who are resistant to the idea that door zones should be avoided (except maybe at very low speeds).

Bottom line: If you are door zone riding down 101 (or anywhere else) and a door suddenly opens in front of you, what's your plan? Crash into it? Suddenly veer left to avoid it, risking moving right into the path of a passing vehicle? I have a wife and a 5-year-old daughter. That plan does not work for me. Your mileage may vary.

Serge

[Roody]

No matter what anyone does, it it's not the way YOU think it should be done it seems to be WRONG. Riding from 92008 to 92037 and blocking the whole flipping lane the entire time is ridiculas unless your pelaton was so large it needed that much room. Who do you think you are? YOU must be the person that gives the rest of us a bad rap.
I ride like Helmet Head (where do you think I learned it? Here on BF, of course.). I also never get buzzed and almost never have motorists honk or yell at me.

Taking responsibility for your own safety is not inconsiderate, and most motorists understand this.

You might want to look into a cycling safety course, or riding with someone more experienced in vehicular cycling. If that's not practical, read about it here on BF, some of the books cited here, and web sites people have linked to. You could start with the sites linked in Helmet Head's sig.

[Brian Ratliff]

What the VC advocates say about dooring and lane positioning and the like is mostly true. You do get better results if you ride further to the left [corrected from before], and you get better results if you try to stay out of door regions. It is also true that you get better results if you rely on your own sense of self preservation and do what is necessary, and not just the minimum the law says. Exactly the same concept as defensive driving.

However, and here is where the VC'ers get it wrong, there will be slips in concentration and unique situations. Door zones can sometimes come up suddenly, leaving little time to adjust. A car buzzing you close (and they do still do that where I come from, even if you are riding all the way out into the right tire track of a rural road - from personal experience) can force you toward the edge, and the car behind it can take advantage of your misplacement. The VC'ers get it wrong because they assume that there is no difference between a momentary lapse and having the wrong riding style.

Believe it or not Serge, most people here ride following all or part of the VC techique. It does work best for most riding styles. People react specifically to you because you are absolutist, and you equate unique, real world situations with idealized textbook situations. You place the blame on the victim without understanding the situation and then apply textbook theories to correct the "mistake."

When I read Forester's book, I was under the impression that VC was a practical guide for cycling in traffic (which, for the practical parts, it is). Fortunately I did not read the "philosophical" sections until much later. You are the first person I have encountered who actually takes VC to the level of a personal crusade, with all the zeal of a born again Christian who has "found the answer" in some book or another, but does not yet realize the difference between "real life" and the ideal.

[Helmet Head]

You do get better results if you ride further to the right,
Don't you mean left?


Door zones can sometimes come up suddenly, leaving little time to adjust.
Door zones of parked cars -- which is the topic here -- can only come up as fast as the cyclist is moving, that is never "suddenly" (oh my gosh, there I go being absolutionist again, but, sorry, cyclists don't travel at the speed of light). Seriously, how does a door zone come up "suddenly". Either there is a parked car up ahead, or there is not. Parked cars don't appear "suddenly".


The VC'ers get it wrong because they assume that there is no difference between a momentary lapse and having the wrong riding style.
Are you accusing me of doing so? If so, please show me anything I ever wrote that was based on the assumption that "there is no difference between a momentary lapse and having the wrong riding style".


Believe it or not Serge, most people here ride following all or part of the VC techique.
Based on your writings, Brian, I wouldn't be surprised if you ride vehicular fairly consistently. Based on the writings of many others on this forum, I would be surprised if they did.


you equate unique, real world situations with idealized textbook situations
That's quite an accusation. Please give me even one example where I have ever equated a unique real world situation with an idealized textbook situation. I try, and I think I succeed fairly well, to point out that we won't know what really happened in most situations, but to make certain assumptions, and to analyze the resulting hypothetical situations based on those assumptions. As an example, read my posts in the Kearny Villa Road thread.


You place the blame on the victim without understanding the situation and then apply textbook theories to correct the "mistake."
Another accusation without explanation? Please show me even one example where I blamed the victim without understanding the situation.


but does not yet realize the difference between "real life" and the ideal.
You don't know me. You have no idea about what differences I realize, and which ones I don't.
Why don't you contact someone who has met me in person, like genec, and ask him, despite our differences expressed on this forum, if he agrees I don't "yet" realize the difference between "real life" and the ideal.

Talk about applying theories without understanding the situation...

[Brian Ratliff]

sorry yes... to the left. Bit challenged today on which is which.

[Brian Ratliff]

Sigh... You only have to look at your absolutism of your ideas, including the OP of this thread, to see where you are riffing on actual situations as if they were textbook and then providing textbook solutions. Maybe you don't intend this, or maybe your experience leads you to believe that most actual situations are very similar to the textbook, but you do this and it comes off as patronizing and preachy.

I have no doubt that you intend only to help people learn VC to further their safety. However, in doing so, you inadvertently insult people's intelligence to the point where they write you off. Thus, by coming off as patronizing and preachy, you are driving people away from your ideas and your experience, and leading them to dismiss everything you say.

[Helmet Head]

Perhaps I appear to some as the extremist who makes advice such as yours seem reasonable in comparison.

If so, I can live with that... and you're welcome.

[sbhikes]

I ride regularly on a street where to stay out of the door zone you have to ride in the door zone on the other side of the street. Tell me what to do!

[Swami'sPrincess]

I ride like Helmet Head (where do you think I learned it? Here on BF, of course.). I also never get buzzed and almost never have motorists honk or yell at me.

Taking responsibility for your own safety is not inconsiderate, and most motorists understand this.

You might want to look into a cycling safety course, or riding with someone more experienced in vehicular cycling. If that's not practical, read about it here on BF, some of the books cited here, and web sites people have linked to. You could start with the sites linked in Helmet Head's sig.

You NEVER get buzzed or honked at? You must not ride much. PS how many professional defensive driving classes have you taken? Much of it applies to cycling and Getting the big picture and Making sure they see you are 2 of the key guidelines.
Smith System
Aim high
Get the big picture
Keep your eyes moving
Leave yourself an out
Make sure they see you

I'm done with this- too much condecending bs and not enough reality or knowledge. Much later.

[Nicodemus]

I fear being doored more than anything else. I'm always alert and I stay the hell away from them whenever I can.

I've been doored twice, in the exact same place, within two days. Both cases were passengers getting out of the car on the wrong side as it was stopped in traffic.

I guess that was my fault.

[Juha]

My point is based on the premise that the only way to get doored is by being in a door zone of a car, and it's perfectly possible to avoid cycling in door zones.

(I have to admit I did not read the 70+ posts before replying. So if this has been said already, pardon my ignorance.)

Possible, yes. Legal, not always, and not universally for sure.

An example: I have a stretch of street in my commute that has been retrofitted with a narrow, one way bike path. They've been able to fit in the path by designating part of the sidewalk as a bike path. Now, when there are cars (legally) parked along the street, the right side doors open directly to the path.

I have been doored there once, and I blame mostly my elected MP for making such obvious design flaw not only possible but actually legally binding for me. Second, I blame the monkey-hurlage-for-brains-lady for opening the door without checking first. Third, I blame self for not being able to completely avoid the door. The only party involved with clean record is Wellgo, as their pedals turn out to leave a nice dent in a brand new BMW front door on impact. :)

Legally, there was no way I could have avoided that one by "choosing" to ride outside the door zone.

--J

[Helmet Head]

Both cases were passengers getting out of the car on the wrong side as it was stopped in traffic.

So in both cases you were passing on the right, a known risk factor in and of itself, even if you're in a bike lane (and not only because of the dooring risk, it's because you're riding where others do not expect anyone to be traveling, again, even if there is a bike lane).

Usually a car-bike collision (including a dooring) can be avoided by the cyclist not by doing something different just a few seconds prior to collision, but by following VC and defensive driving principles for some considerable time (minutes, hours, days, weeks, months...) prior to impact. In this case, avoidance would stem from recognition that passing on the right is an inherently dangerous maneuver, and either stopping to wait until the car proceeded, or slowing way down while passing with hyper vigilance.


Juha - Do you agree that opposing and eliminating bikeways that direct cyclists to ride in door zones should be a top priority of any bicycling advocacy group?

[Helmet Head]

You NEVER get buzzed or honked at? You must not ride much. PS how many professional defensive driving classes have you taken? Much of it applies to cycling and Getting the big picture and Making sure they see you are 2 of the key guidelines.
Smith System
Aim high
Get the big picture
Keep your eyes moving
Leave yourself an out
Make sure they see you

I'm done with this- too much condecending bs and not enough reality or knowledge. Much later.
Princess, in case you do come back to this thread, I was hoping you would answer my question... if you're riding in the door zone (on 101 or any other road), at 10 mph or faster, and someone suddenly opens a door in front of you, what is your plan?

[genec]

Do you agree that opposing and eliminating bikeways that direct cyclists to ride in door zones should be a top priority of any bicycling advocacy group?

As a bike lane proponent, I agree that this is simply poor design in action.

As I advocate "good well designed bike lanes," these "door zone" bike lanes fall into the area of bad design, both for cyclists and motorists who become the "doorers."

This is a door zone bike lane:

http://www.labreform.org/IMG/DZBL.jpg


****************************************************
This is not a door zone bike lane: http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=32251

Notice in the link, the gap intentionally placed between the autos and the BL.

[Roody]

You NEVER get buzzed or honked at? You must not ride much. PS how many professional defensive driving classes have you taken? Much of it applies to cycling and Getting the big picture and Making sure they see you are 2 of the key guidelines.
Smith System
Aim high
Get the big picture
Keep your eyes moving
Leave yourself an out
Make sure they see you

I'm done with this- too much condecending bs and not enough reality or knowledge. Much later.Yes, you do have a condescending attitude. Are you having a bad dayor what? I said I never get buzzed and I rarely get honked at. I ride 360 days a year. I learned defensive driving about 30 years ago. Post again when you are prepared to have a real discussion with the people here. We're not really into flaming each other here.

[Helmet Head]

****************************************************
This is not a door zone bike lane: http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=32251

Notice in the link, the gap intentionally placed between the autos and the BL.

It's not a door zone bike lane, but it's still a horrible design. With all the ped traffic going across, popping out from behind trees and from behind cars, what do you think the max safe MPH is? 5?

And look at the crud lying in the bike lane.

The street, from what I can tell, looks very inviting. Swept clean by traffic, peds crossing with the care given to crossing streets... Speed limit here is probably 30 km/h. There is no need for a bike lane here even by your standards.

[genec]

It's not a door zone bike lane, but it's still a horrible design. With all the ped traffic going across, popping out from behind trees and from behind cars, what do you think the max safe MPH is? 5?

And look at the crud lying in the bike lane.

The street, from what I can tell, looks very inviting. Swept clean by traffic, peds crossing with the care given to crossing streets... Speed limit here is probably 30 km/h. There is no need for a bike lane here even by your standards.

Well you are correct in your latter statement... I probably would not put a BL there... as far as the "crud," I think they are leaves. As far as peds "popping out," they tended to look, as getting hit by a fast bike can hurt... kinda turns the tables on "dooring." :D

BTW speaking of the quality of the streets... this happens to be Barcelona, but I saw similar wonderful street quality in southern France too... it just made me nearly cry thinking of the crappy broken up streets we have here.

[Helmet Head]

The large visible crud, while perhaps not puncture-causing in and of itself, is evidence of a lack of sweeping on the surface in question, and indicates the presence of smaller puncture-causing crud, as compared to a nearby street surface which is constantly swept clean of large and small puncture-causing crud by traffic.

[genec]

The large visible crud, while perhaps not puncture-causing in and of itself, is evidence of a lack of sweeping on the surface in question, and indicates the presence of smaller puncture-causing crud, as compared to a nearby street surface which is constantly swept clean of large and small puncture-causing crud by traffic.

Or simply that the leaves just fell... they do that in the autumn... when this pic was taken. Actually November 2001, to be exact.

[Helmet Head]

Jeez. Leaves fall all over the street. The point is that they (and all the other crud) are constantly swept up on the street, and are not in the bike lane.

Why are you arguing with me about this? Are you contending that there is constant sweeping on that bike lane, like there is on the street from traffic? If not, what is your point?

[sbhikes]

Large, visible crud? Looks like somebody dropped a piece of paper in the cross walk, and the rest of it looks like a couple of fallen leaves. They could have swept the street 5 minutes ago and a couple of leaves fallen since then and while they fell some guy dropped the piece of paper. You call that evidence of a lack of sweeping? And you can see that the nearby street is clean? You must have x-ray vision.

[Treespeed]

Isn't there already a bike lane thread?

[Helmet Head]

Oh for Pete's sake!

It's a street with cars parked on it. Are you contending that it is unreasonable to assume that there is sufficient traffic on that street to keep it relatively well swept clean of puncture causing debris as compared to the bike lane, which obviously never gets any motor traffic to sweep it (for which the presence of the crud in question is not the only evidence).

We would save a lot of time if you folks would stop making such frivolous points.

[genec]

Actually there are leaves in the street too. I know, I was there. It was a quiet weekend morning and none of those cars had moved all night. The smell of coffee was strong from the neighborhood shops and the voices were still quiet, reflecting the still of the morning. I had accidently dropped my napkin from the croissant that I was still munching on when I reached for my cheap digital camera...

But all in all, I just wanted to show that BL can be built outside the door zone. This is a door zone thread, right?

Thanks Pete...

[Helmet Head]

Yes, Gene, you made your point about how bike lanes could be built outside of a door zone.
Unfortunately, in the process, you also identified yourself as a self-proclaimed advocate of "good well designed bike lanes", as if there is such a thing, and presented a photo of a bike lane, implying that it was a "good well designed bike lane". I thought it was appropriate to point out why that particular bike lane was neither good nor well designed.

Show me a picture of a bike lane that you think is "good well designed", and I'll show you a picture of something you're missing, every time.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Oh for Pete's sake!
We would save a lot of time if you folks would stop making such frivolous points.
Indeed. "Frivolous points" sez the King of the Black Kettles (or is it the Mad Hatter?)

[genec]

Yes, Gene, you made your point about how bike lanes could be built outside of a door zone.
Unfortunately, in the process, you also identified yourself as a self-proclaimed advocate of "good well designed bike lanes", as if there is such a thing, and presented a photo of a bike lane, implying that it was a "good well designed bike lane". I thought it was appropriate to point out why that particular bike lane was neither good nor well designed.

Show me a picture of a bike lane that you think is "good well designed", and I'll show you a picture of something you're missing, every time.

Well, not to delve into the aspects of BL on a dooring thread... frankly, I think your "picture of what is missing" is missing the point.

This BL is clean, albeit for some leaves, as the city choses to keep them that way, and "peds popping out from behind trees" are not a problem as the peds are more vulnerable than moving cyclists, thus the peds tend to keep a lookout just as cyclists in the US have to watch out for moving doors.

Of course you will never support BL, in any form, as you believe that none should ever exist. In a perfect road sharing world, that is just fine, but in the world we live in, motorists must often be reminded of their place... and BL help to do just that.

Heck, in a perfect world, doorings would never occur... but since we do not live in that world, perhaps some effort could be made to reduce the potential of said doorings by redesigning parts of that world.

[Helmet Head]

motorists must often be reminded of their place...
This statement illustrates the bigger issue behind the bike lane debate, the question of whether motorists and cyclists should be segregated into separated spaces of their own ("their place"). Yes, motorists have their space, and we have ours (e.g., in the door zone).

OR... should we be sharing the same space?

[Brian Ratliff]

Have off it already Serge. We spent hours and days arguing this point in a different thread. As I recall, neither you or I persuaded each other about the other's points and we ended by going around in circles until the thread was abandoned.

Just as some of us are "self-proclaimed advocate of 'good well designed bike lanes'," you are the self-proclaimed opponent of "good, well designed bike lanes," apparently favoring narrow lanes with no accomodations for cyclists, or maybe WOL's. We all have our opinions and competing philosophies. As with all two sided issues, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle of it all.

[Brian Ratliff]

By the way, I'll bet the person who was there is in better position to describe the setting than the person looking at a picture. Just a thought.

[genec]

This statement illustrates the bigger issue behind the bike lane debate, the question of whether motorists and cyclists should be segregated into separated spaces of their own ("their place"). Yes, motorists have their space, and we have ours (e.g., in the door zone).

OR... should we be sharing the same space?

We can share as soon as I can ride 50MPH... until then there is little "sharing" going on... and the laws of physics still don't allow us to be in the same place at the same time.

[Brian Ratliff]

Jeez. Leaves fall all over the street. The point is that they (and all the other crud) are constantly swept up on the street, and are not in the bike lane.

Why are you arguing with me about this? Are you contending that there is constant sweeping on that bike lane, like there is on the street from traffic? If not, what is your point?

I want to point out... I believe the point Gene is trying to make is that debris, swept or not, is simply not an issue. It is also commonly the case here in Portland where debris in the bike lane is simply not the issue you make it out to be.

[Helmet Head]

It is also commonly the case here in Portland where debris in the bike lane is simply not the issue you make it out to be.


To be clear, the issue "I make it out to be" is that riding in bike lane debris and side-of-the-road debris increases puncture incidence on the order of 500%. That is, before I made it a point to avoid those areas, I got punctures about every 1,000 miles; now I get them about every 5,000 miles. YMMV.

Perhaps more importantly, avoiding those not-regularly/constantly-swept-by-traffic areas also reduces the incidence of encountering more dangerous -- crash-causing -- debris.