Another forum blamed the car free lifestyle of the people of New Orleans as the reason which prevented them from leaving the city during the disaster. I also heard this same opinion yesterday on the radio as the host declared if the poor people "Only had Cars" the disaster wouldn't have been so great.
Folks. There is plenty of blame to go around as to why this disaster happend in the first place but I'll take this one at a time.
1. High cost of car ownship -- The poor people of New Orleans could not afford a car which is why they were living a car free lifestyle in the first place. When you don't have any money to afford a car, you simple do without. The spiraling cost of motor car ownership is leaving thousands without transportaton and I suspect this will get worse in the future. Furthermore, most of those cars would have been stuck in gridlock once the city got flooded in the first place as CNN showed thouands of vehicles underwater. Bottom line. There no proof at all that tens of thousands of cars would have been the answer.
2. Lack of Rail Service or Public transportation--- The city of New Orleans had very little in the form of public transportation which gave the citizens little options when the disaster struck. Other than Amtrak, there is no commuter rail service leaving the city which could have been used to evacuate tens of thousands to safty. People think in natural disaster, a car would be a savior but when the people are too poor to afford a motor vehicle, rail or bus service would have been a better alternative. What was the first thing the mayor was asking for after the storm? Hundreds of Buses!!
3. Lack of leadership -- It seems everyone is quick to a car free lifestyle as the problem but in fact was the lack of leadership. The Presidents budget cuts for the city of New Orleans prevented the Army Corp or Engineers from completing the necessary work that might have prevented the disaster in the first place. No Emergency assistance from Washington during the crisis, lack of evacuation from the governor, the list goes on and on. Lets put the blame where it belongs and not on the carfree lifestyle.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Man, I wish they'd impeach Bush for this and so many other blunders... but I doubt it'll happen.
Guest
How Amtrak wasn't used to move as many people out as possible is puzzling to me. Was Amtrak still charging to use their services? Why didn't the government set up contracts for the trains and buses to move out as many people as possible (as well as mobilize as many airlines as possible)? Did they think the hurricanes wouldn't be as bad as they were? Did they underestimate how easily people could get out of town?
I have so many questions. Partly because my mom's kin (some of them very old, some of them sick, and a lot of them poor) were unable to get out in time, and now, they're living in deplorable conditions, and some of them we can't find! The whole situation is sad, pathetic, and disturbing (besides sickening me).
Koffee
cerewa
Why didn't the government set up contracts for the trains and buses to move out as many people as possible.
Drawing up such a contract, especially on short notice, would be difficult and require leadership and quick thinking. I don't think that the people in charge are very well equipped to meed those requirements.
jabowker
There are certianly a lot of questions about the first couple of days but why can't they get it together now? That's the immediate and most pressing issue.
We know that the governor's cronies are under inditement for diverting the federal funds for emergency preparedness into their own pockets. Hopefully someday we will know why the mayor failed to fully execute the cities emergency plans and why he refused to use the 100's of busses that he had at his disposal. Maybe someday we'll understand why the governor botched the use of her emergency resources and is now trying to divert blame elsewhere. But what's it going to take to get her to stop blocking emergency aid now and get her to stop trying to delay the evacuation of people that are still alive and at risk now?
Let's do what we can to take care of people now. Leave the partisan bickering for later or better yet just cut it out.
gwd
In our city, where I've seen numbers of 30% to 37% of households have no car the government was telling us to prepare evacuation plans a few years ago. They were telling us to buy duct tape and dust masks and store water too. With a storm you know what you're up against, but back then the government refused to say why they thought it was necessary. I'm not poor or a minority but had decided to stay to help the people in my building who couldn't go. I'll bet that New Orleans is the same way, what you saw on the TV and what really happened are two different things. Not everyone who stayed are criminals who went crazy when they ran out of dope. If I had to go of course I'd load up a bike and go but I didn't see the point in getting all hysterical about it. I understand the people who stayed in New Orleans, why should they go to a shelter to wallow in excrement and be assaulted and allow looters to grab whatever they left behind? Anyway the car free side of it is irrelevent, if the government gave each household without a car an SUV the city would be unliveable. There would be no place to park the things.
The following web link has a photo of New Orleans school busses sitting idle, so the mayor had had busses he just needed drivers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4216508.stm
The New Orleans evacuation plan is here:
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf
Here is a quote from page 13:
"The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
evacuating."
Was it followed?
A few years ago I had the chance to examine an overview of the evacuation plans for the DC area. All the city busses were supposed to be used but I don't remember if school busses were to be used too. They were going to make all the roads one-way out. I have a feeling that it will be just as fast to bike out along one of the bike trails.
Dahon.Steve
How Amtrak wasn't used to move as many people out as possible is puzzling to me. Was Amtrak still charging to use their services? Why didn't the government set up contracts for the trains and buses to move out as many people as possible (
It's a good question.
If Amtrak would have moved thousands out of the city for free, it would have come out as the lone hero in this disaster. Yet, they did nothing to improve the situation which is why the President wants to put the service into bankruptcy. An opportunity lost.
I went to the New Orleans transit web site and saw basically nothing. Other than Amtrak and the Heritage trolley line, there really is very little public transportation. Shocking.
Dahon.Steve
Anyway the car free side of it is irrelevent, if the government gave each household without a car an SUV the city would be unliveable. There would be no place to park the things.
The following web link has a photo of New Orleans school busses sitting idle, so the mayor had had busses he just needed drivers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4216508.stm
The New Orleans evacuation plan is here:
http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf
Here is a quote from page 13:
"The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
evacuating."
Good one.
So there were plenty of buses but no one took action. There you go. I don't think the city of New Orleans could sustain a single car for each person since it's not that big. I guess it doesn't matter anymore.
Roody
I think all of us, as carfree people, must check within our communities to find out what evacuation plans exist, and if they are adequate. Will you and your family be able to get out if a disaster strikes your city? If the plans are inadequate, we must each do our part to force our often lazy or short-sighted city planners to formulate better strategies. Seriously, your life may depend on the action you take NOW. You obviously cannot afford to believe that "the government will take care of us."
It also seems important that each family have at least one week's supply of food, water and medicine on hand at all times.
jamesdenver
i think if they had bussed everyone out to the boonies, and the hurricane had passed with minimal damage, they would have been criticized for wasting all the money and fuel to do so.
everyone thought they would leave the superdome, mop up a bit, and everything would be ok
lessons learned...
lilHinault
I'm all for impeaching Bush, then we'll have President Cheney. I never thought I'd find so many Chaney supporters on this board.
(/sarcasm)
Dahon.Steve
i think if they had bussed everyone out to the boonies, and the hurricane had passed with minimal damage, they would have been criticized for wasting all the money and fuel to do so.
everyone thought they would leave the superdome, mop up a bit, and everything would be ok
lessons learned...
I just heard it would have cost the city ONLY seven million dollars to move about 100,000 thousand people out of the city by buses. All that human sufferage for a measly seven million. Incredible.
folder fanatic
Haven't all of you really looked into the news and internet reports comming out of New Orleans and the Gulf coast, yet? I mean really examine the reports of not only how the various goverments failed it's people, but how the help is being distributed? And who is getting it?
And let's move away from these thoughts for a bit. About fleeing the cities? I live in Southern California. Beside the sheer distance one must cover, rather questionalble public transportation available, and alot of class, financial, language, and ethnic divisions, along with the criminal element and you have even more of a timebomb ready to explode at any weakened moment than the Gulf Coast disaster. The car here is showcased more than any region is this country. Yet any little problem (freeway accidents, road rage, a few car breakdowns, even rain) happens and guess what? Gridlock happens! Nobody go anywhere very quickly-or slowly as the case may be.
The only way out of the mess is to become car-free. I beat any traffic jam on my bikes-even the little folder! I escape any danger with the bikes. I can evacuate if need be on them. Just look at the news. Some hardy souls were doing that with-their bikes! The bike is far more dependalble than any goverment agent or agency. I rather trust my life to my bike than any other organization. These mechanical marvels never let me down when I used them. I did so in the Earthquakes of 1971, 1987, 1994, Riots of 1992, Oil Problems of 1973-5, and 2005, Ecomonic Downturns of mid 1970's, early 1980s, mid 1990's, and present day.
folder fanatic
An Update:
Bike flight
Nola.com: "Steve Godfrey, president of Higher Flyers handbill distribution service in New Orleans is a bicycle advocate, community organizer and activist. He does not drive a car. His only means of escaping before the hurricane was his bicycle. He took off sometime Sunday morning and arrived in Baton Rouge Sunday night. For those of us who know him, we are not only overjoyed by his safe evacuation but are inspired by his courage, perseverance and can-do attitude. We need more like him."
From:
More dark days in New Orleans, but Pittsburghers offer hope
Friday, September 02, 2005
By Peter Leo, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Need I say more?
ViciousCycle
Bicycles are highly user-servicable whereas cars in general are not. If the 'transmission' goes out on my bike, I can jerry-rig it into a single-speed bike, whereas if the transmission goes out on a car, you're stranded. If I get a flat on my bike, I can repair it very quickly, whereas if people get a flat in their car, they often rely on calling a motor club or spending a lot of time trying to get the donut tire on.
On blizzardy days when many motorists don't even want to get into their vehicles, I can lower my bike seat and use my feet to balance and to brake. In an emergency situation, I would find a bicycle to be reliable.
___
An Update:
Bike flight
Nola.com: "Steve Godfrey, president of Higher Flyers handbill distribution service in New Orleans is a bicycle advocate, community organizer and activist. He does not drive a car. His only means of escaping before the hurricane was his bicycle. He took off sometime Sunday morning and arrived in Baton Rouge Sunday night. For those of us who know him, we are not only overjoyed by his safe evacuation but are inspired by his courage, perseverance and can-do attitude. We need more like him."
From:
More dark days in New Orleans, but Pittsburghers offer hope
Friday, September 02, 2005
By Peter Leo, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Need I say more?
Good find.
bkrownd
i think if they had bussed everyone out to the boonies, and the hurricane had passed with minimal damage, they would have been criticized for wasting all the money and fuel to do so.
everyone thought they would leave the superdome, mop up a bit, and everything would be ok
Yeah, can you imagine being the person charged with coordinating the bussing of 100,000 people on a couple of day's notice? 1000-2000 busses and drivers - drivers imported from who-knows-where - and at least that many people required for security and logistics. Then where do you take them that will be safe and adequately prepared to receive them? You'd be lucky if you could load half of them in time to depart.
Roody
Yeah, can you imagine being the person charged with coordinating the bussing of 100,000 people on a couple of day's notice? 1000-2000 busses and drivers - drivers imported from who-knows-where - and at least that many people required for security and logistics. Then where do you take them that will be safe and adequately prepared to receive them? You'd be lucky if you could load half of them in time to depart.
Very good points. But OTOH....
We have learned that many people would not have left, even if they could have, so the actual number of evacuees to be bussed would be something less than 100,000.
Also, THEY DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT. They were totally unprepared, even though "everybody" knew that a hurricane like Katrina would eventually hit the region. That is the real crime, IMO, overshadowing even the slow response after the hurricane.
These were carfree people who were left behind, in some sense our brothers and sisters.
carless
I have so many questions. Partly because my mom's kin (some of them very old, some of them sick, and a lot of them poor) were unable to get out in time, and now, they're living in deplorable conditions, and some of them we can't find! The whole situation is sad, pathetic, and disturbing (besides sickening me).
Koffee
I think the forum users share your anxiety, although (in my case) not in such a personal way.
How Amtrak wasn't used to move as many people out as possible is puzzling to me. Was Amtrak still charging to use their services? Why didn't the government set up contracts for the trains and buses to move out as many people as possible (as well as mobilize as many airlines as possible)? Did they think the hurricanes wouldn't be as bad as they were? Did they underestimate how easily people could get out of town?
I don't mean to go off on a rant....
I believe citizens and the government put their priorities on things they think are important. I find myself befuddled with the energy we as a nation, put into enriching our personal self at the expense of others.
There is far more discussion centered on $, than the deeper questions of race and poverty in New Orleans. How many decisions were based on fear of going into a black neighborhood and providing emergency services? We can invade 2 countries, but can't find the Convention Center. I think we could spend $500 million for an safe evacuation center and let them play football in it.
To your original question, I think nobody viewed evacuation of those without a car important. I think the general view, (aside from NYC, SF) is without wheels, you have no status.
Roody
I think the forum users share your anxiety, although (in my case) not in such a personal way.
I don't mean to go off on a rant....
I believe citizens and the government put their priorities on things they think are important. I find myself befuddled with the energy we as a nation, put into enriching our personal self at the expense of others.
There is far more discussion centered on $, than the deeper questions of race and poverty in New Orleans. How many decisions were based on fear of going into a black neighborhood and providing emergency services? We can invade 2 countries, but can't find the Convention Center. I think we could spend $500 million for an safe evacuation center and let them play football in it.
To your original question, I think nobody viewed evacuation of those without a car important. I think the general view, (aside from NYC, SF) is without wheels, you have no status.
I think you are absolutely right. Nobody cared about those people. They were left behind long before Katrina. As soon as the hoopla dies down, we will go back to not caring about them again.
Koffee, I hope you have had good news about your people by now. My thoughts are with you, and them.
Dahon.Steve
Here's a good article that confirms what I stated in my original post that inadequate public transportation was an important factor in so many people being trapped during the disaster and not the car free lifestyle. The author who lives in New Orleans was surprised to find that 30 percent of the population are carless but this would not be a problem if the city had a transit system capable of moving thousands in a crisis. I suspect as transportation by motorcar gets more expensive with escalating gas prices, we will find more people living car free which makes public transportation even more important in the near future.
Have you noticed those who don't have motor transport are called "car less" which is a negative term in my opinion. The term "car less" is ment to project an image of poverty. Seriously. I do not consider myself "car less" but "CAR FREE" as I'm no longer a slave to high gas prices, monthly payments, insurance, tolls, tickets, maintenance and repairs.
OP-ED: Car-less in the Eye of Katrina
Infrastructure | North America | Op-Ed
6 September, 2005 - 5:00am
Author: John Renne
The reason so many lives are in jeopardy from Hurricane Katrina is a result of our extreme dependence on cars and the lack of planning for public transportation, both for regular use and for emergencies, writes John Renne in this week's Planetizen Op-Ed. Renne, a professor at the University of New Orleans, evacuated just days before the hurricane hit.
Mass chaos. A storm of biblical proportions. Hell on earth. These are just a few accounts used by the media to describe the scene in the hours and days after Hurricane Katrina. As I write this, I am refugee in Texas just days after the storm. There are approximately 100,000 people stranded in New Orleans hoping for transport out of the City. An important question not discussed by the media is why so many people were left behind? The reason so many lives are in jeopardy is a result of our extreme dependence on cars and the lack of planning for public transportation, both for regular use and for emergencies.
A brief background about my short experience in Nawlins
My wife and I moved to New Orleans on August 10, 2005. I was hired by the College of Urban and Public Affairs to help launch a new program in transportation studies at the University of New Orleans (UNO). Upon finding an apartment in the Lower Garden District, I navigated the public transportation system for the first two weeks of my job traveling about one hour in each direction to and from work a journey that only takes about 20 minutes by car. The actual travel time only takes about 30 minutes on transit but each day I would spend up to 35 minutes in each direction waiting for a transfer, which was only supposed to take about 10 minutes.
It was clear very quickly that most middle class locals have long abandoned the transit system in the Big Easy. I should note that last year the Regional Transit Authority (RTA) expanded its streetcar line down Canal Street. This is a positive step forward but only a small band-aid in attempting to revive a transit system mostly used by tourists and those with little or no choice.
The poorest in New Orleans rely on the transit system for their travel needs. According to the US Census, in 2000, an astonishing 27 percent of households did not own a vehicle. Not surprisingly, 27 percent of households in New Orleans are also below the poverty line. This translates to approximately 120,000 residents that have little choice in their travel plans outside of walking, cycling, or using public transport. One would assume that a city in danger of hurricanes would have a plan to evacuate the poorest third of its residents by using buses and trains. Over the past year, there has been a massive effort to educate the citizenry about the contra-flow highway lanes. The threat of hurricanes in New Orleans is not new, but to the best of my knowledge, no plans were ever created to evacuate residents who do not have access to cars.
A mass exodus
On Saturday morning the phone rang the big one is coming. Being carless (but with means to rent a car), I called around to find a rental, and sure enough several companies were already sold out. We were lucky and found a car, but many were not so fortunate. Most carless residents in New Orleans could not have afforded a rental car even if one had been available. Despite taking 5 hours to drive to Baton Rouge, the contra-flow highway evacuation plan worked well. Everyone fortunate enough to have a car was able to leave.
During the long ride out, we listened to several local radio stations. I was astonished that no information was available to evacuate people without access to a car. I even called a radio station and asked the DJ why no information was being given for those without cars. A few minutes later, the station announced that all residents without the ability to leave must go to the Superdome for shelter this was their plan for the carless.
Sunday came and still there was no announcement to evacuate residents without cars the Superdome was still the only answer. Around noon on Sunday, I called the local ABC news station to ask if there was anything that they could do to pressure the governor and mayor to use public transportation to evacuate those without cars. The news station told me that Amtrak had stopped service on Saturday and the mayor had just announced that some buses would transport residents out of the City. In my view, this was a little too late.
It is my understanding that RTA has the capacity on its buses to evacuate approximately 25,000 people per day. Had a plan been in place, they might have been able to transport 50,000 or more people out of the City before the storm hit. Had a good plan been in place, school buses and trains could have probably evacuated the majority of the 100,000 or so tourists and residents now stranded in the City.
My intent of this story is not to point fingers at the RTA or the City of New Orleans. Over the next several weeks and months we will do a lot of learning about how to minimize the damage of future disasters which unfortunately are inevitable. Part of this learning should include mandatory evacuation plans for all major cities that take into account the use of public transportation to efficiently evacuate those with and without cars.
America needs to take public transportation seriously, not only when things are going smoothly, but also for evacuation from natural disasters and terrorist attacks. Public transit was essential in saving lives as well as the economy of New York during and after September 11th. It could have helped save lives New Orleans but because we never took it seriously, 100,000 people are in jeopardy today.
When we rebuild New Orleans, we need to create a transit system that not only serves the poor but everyone. This system needs to efficiently move people around the City and in the case of another hurricane, it should be an integral part of an evacuation strategy. I think all cities could benefit from the learning that will take place in New Orleans. After all, have you ever asked if your transit agency has a plan to evacuate the carless in your city?
John L. Renne is an Assistant Professor and Associate Director or the Maritime and Intermodal Transportation Center at the College of Urban and Public Affairs at the University of New Orleans. He also teaches the Planetizen course, PLAN-215: Sustainable Urban Development, Smart Growth, and Transit Oriented Development
rs_woods
Location: New Jersey
enough said.
Roody
Steve -- thanks for posting that article. It says a lot not only about New Orleans, but about the state of transportation in almost all of of our cities. Kinda scary!
Roody
enough said.
I'm not sure I get your point, but surely you noticed that the author of the article was from New Orleans?
Merriwether
The New Orleans flooding was a dramatic failure at all levels of government: federal, state, and city. New Orleans also had a large and recalcitrant criminal population, a larger segment of disaffected urban poor, and a civic climate of crime and despair that made the aftermath a lot nastier than it would have been in nearly any other city.
Still, I wonder why so many people on this forum who have boundless enthusiasm for government regulation-- banning S.U.V.'s, marching us all into "planned" communities in inner cities, bike racks, helmet police, food police, the Kyoto protocol, tax, tax, tax, and more tax-- don't draw the obvious lesson. Reliance on government should be avoided whenever possible. Though perhaps some people will choose to delude themselves that the New Orleans city government, and the Louisiana state government, would have uncorruptable and efficient if only a Democrat were in the White House, surely most people have drawn the obvious lessons about suspicion of government planning in any form.
At any rate, whatever the broader political lessons here, surely it's obvious that as individuals you all should prepare to handle disasters without government assistance. If you don't have several days of clean water stored at home, get a $4 container at WalMart and store some. Keep a few flashlights handy with lots of batteries. Have enough canned food on hand to feed your household for a week. Keep important documents in a centralized location for quick removal. You can add camping equipment as you desire, a small generator, perhaps, or one of those large battery-plus-inverter power sources. Warm clothing, blankets, first aid supplies, are cheap additions to a disaster kit. If anyone would have been uncomfortable in the neighborhoods of New Orleans after the flooding without a firearm, he can draw the obvious conclusion there, too.
The point is that, whatever else might be true, nearly all of the people who were herded into the Superdome neglected even the most obvious preparations, despite having lived all of their lives under the obvious danger of flooding. Don't let that be you.
Finally, plan carefully to avoid living in some Ramallah-like refugee camp. If government officials tell you to leave your area and assemble in some football field, or in a tent city, are you going to go? Would anyone? I would have tried to swim through the toxic water and hitchhike before I would have gone to some refugee assembly are in New Orleans, even before anyone knew for sure what the Superdome was like, but I'm the suspicious type. Now that we've seen just how well prepared we can expect our rulers to be to "take care of us" in a disaster, there's no excuse for anyone.
Government nowadays relies heavily on the patronizing illusion that its job is to protect us childlike charges from a host of risks, petty to grave. But bureaucrats can't alter the weather, and the mayor is going to sleep in his guarded mansion the day after your community is destroyed whether you get out or not. Perhaps, then, the New Orleans disaster is a reminder for the citizenry to grow up.
At any rate, a bicycle is a decent bug-out vehicle in some circumstances. A crowded urban area is the place that comes to mind first. You can zip through standstill motorized traffic. And, relevantly to recent events, most bicycles can be floated on a pair of inner tubes. So, you have a highly portable vehicle that can be used to escape just about any nightmare urban scenario.
A car with a full tank would still be preferable in most cases, but there would be no beating a bike in some cases, yes.
cyclezealot
Lets say one lives in Miami.. a category 5 is coming. all lanes run north.but traffic is backed up 10 miles..
I might hop on my bike . In two days I could be in Orlando. In a bike race you might beat out the motoring refugees.
Katrina goes to show how poorly our public is served in America..FEMA is thought to employ emergency planning..
You get what you pay for..Our public transportation priorities are so very low.
Roody
Merriwether: You certainly make some good points about the role of the individual in preparing for a disaster. But have you considered the following points?
First, governments were originally created, thousands of years ago, as associations that tried to prevent disaster (by building levee systems, for example) or to mitigate it (by stockpiling food and supplies). The larger the association (government), the larger the disaster that could be handled. Today, the move is to make government smaller and to "get it off the peoples' backs." Fine, but if we despise big government, and neglect it year after year, how can we expect it to handle big emergencies like Katrina? And who but BIGgovernment could possibly handle a crisis as large as Katrina?
Second, you wisely encourage people to stockpile their own supplies for disasters. However, for many working poor people, this is very difficult. Maybe a poor family has amassed a few day's supply of food. But it's two days to payday and you have a dollar to your name. The kids need dinner. Should you break into the emergency supply for some Mac'n'cheese, or let the kids go hungry because there might be a devastating hurricane tomorrow? For most, that would be an easy decision!
So, merriwether, sometimes ideology butts heads with reality. Use your imagination. Try to see what it's like down there for those people. Would you really mind if your taxes were raised a little to help them out?
Roody
At any rate, a bicycle is a decent bug-out vehicle in some circumstances. A crowded urban area is the place that comes to mind first. You can zip through standstill motorized traffic. And, relevantly to recent events, most bicycles can be floated on a pair of inner tubes. So, you have a highly portable vehicle that can be used to escape just about any nightmare urban scenario.
My bike already has a pair of inner tubes, but it don't float! What did you mean?
Dahon.Steve
The New Orleans flooding was a dramatic failure at all levels of government: federal, state, and city. New Orleans also had a large and recalcitrant criminal population, a larger segment of disaffected urban poor, and a civic climate of crime and despair that made the aftermath a lot nastier than it would have been in nearly any other city.
Still, I wonder why so many people on this forum who have boundless enthusiasm for government regulation-- banning S.U.V.'s, marching us all into "planned" communities in inner cities, bike racks, helmet police, food police, the Kyoto protocol, tax, tax, tax, and more tax-- don't draw the obvious lesson. Reliance on government should be avoided whenever possible. Though perhaps some people will choose to delude themselves that the New Orleans city government, and the Louisiana state government, would have uncorruptable and efficient if only a Democrat were in the White House, surely most people have drawn the obvious lessons about suspicion of government planning in any form.
At any rate, whatever the broader political lessons here, surely it's obvious that as individuals you all should prepare to handle disasters without government assistance. If you don't have several days of clean water stored at home, get a $4 container at WalMart and store some. Keep a few flashlights handy with lots of batteries. Have enough canned food on hand to feed your household for a week. Keep important documents in a centralized location for quick removal. You can add camping equipment as you desire, a small generator, perhaps, or one of those large battery-plus-inverter power sources. Warm clothing, blankets, first aid supplies, are cheap additions to a disaster kit. If anyone would have been uncomfortable in the neighborhoods of New Orleans after the flooding without a firearm, he can draw the obvious conclusion there, too.
The point is that, whatever else might be true, nearly all of the people who were herded into the Superdome neglected even the most obvious preparations, despite having lived all of their lives under the obvious danger of flooding. Don't let that be you.
Finally, plan carefully to avoid living in some Ramallah-like refugee camp. If government officials tell you to leave your area and assemble in some football field, or in a tent city, are you going to go? Would anyone? I would have tried to swim through the toxic water and hitchhike before I would have gone to some refugee assembly are in New Orleans, even before anyone knew for sure what the Superdome was like, but I'm the suspicious type. Now that we've seen just how well prepared we can expect our rulers to be to "take care of us" in a disaster, there's no excuse for anyone.
Merriwether:
I could not disagree with you more.
The Republicans are on the run in this situation because it happened on their watch. They're trying to put the blame on the people and it won't work because these are the victims. Just before the flood, the Republicans were in the process of massive Medicade cuts for the poor and a tax cut for the rich (death tax) have all gone up in flames as a result of the tragedy.
The tens of millions which could have been used to reinforce those dams were diverted to the war which was wrong. The Army Corp of engineers have been telling us for the past several years the current condition of those leveis were not enough and needed funding. It will now cost hundreds of billions to repair the city of New Orleans so there went your tax cut. The current administration was hands off in New Orleans and look what happened. CNBC reported it may cost close to 300 billion to rebuild the city. Hands off was a pretty expensive lession.
Contrary to popular Republican belief Merriwether, the current administration does not believe in small government for Home Land Secruity is probably the largest government spending program since the Great Society. Furthermore, Presidents Social Security perscription program (Medicare) will require billions and will exceed the cost of Social Security (in 25 years) which we haven't even paid for! Was the Governement hands off in regard to Iraq? Afgahanistan?
I live next to Hoboken NJ which is below sea level and would ALWAY get flooded during a rain storm practically each year. Seriously. My mother used to work in that city and would tell me of horror stories of how they had to swim for their lives during the floods. Hoboken was a poor community during the 1970's and the government for the most part didn't care one bit about the people or the factories living there. Sound similar right?
Around the 1990's, gentrification (sp) began taking place and Hoboken became a hot spot as real estate prices went through the roof. All the poor blacks and hispanics were moved to housing projects by the railroad tracks but the flooding problems continued. Somehow, the Army Corp of engineers managed to "fix" the problem costing tens of millions of dollars now that the people who were living there were no longer poor if you get my drift. Today, the floods that plagued Hoboken since inception are long gone not because the government took a hands off approach but due to pressure put on state legislature to do the right thing.
rs_woods
I'm not sure I get your point, but surely you noticed that the author of the article was from New Orleans?
Yeah, I noticed that. I was responding to your original post.
Roody
Yeah, I noticed that. I was responding to your original post.
I guess you're a person of few words. I wish you would say a little more, as there's no way others can understand your point if you don't even make it! This forum is free -- we don't pay per word. :)
carless
Now that we've seen just how well prepared we can expect our rulers to be to "take care of us" in a disaster, there's no excuse for anyone.
Government nowadays relies heavily on the patronizing illusion that its job is to protect us childlike charges from a host of risks, petty to grave. Perhaps, then, the New Orleans disaster is a reminder for the citizenry to grow up.
(Stepping up to soapbox, uhm) I agree on the cluster **** that is governments most basic role: to protect it's citizens, currently highlighted in N.O.
I disagree with the premise of everybody being equal, and those people who choose not to prepare are SOL. Primarily because of the young, handicapped, and not functional adults who like you and me are citizens. About 90% of people in a wheelchair didn't think they could possibly be handicapped. We are both a crazy moment away from being one of them. If you are old, very young, black, or not making alot $ shouldn't disqualify you from basic services.
I'm not criticising you personally, more philosophically. You will get old, as will I, and will your broker go to the nursing home to evacuate you?
carless
Merriwether:
I could not disagree with you more.
The Republicans are on the run in this situation because it happened on their watch. They're trying to put the blame on the people and it won't work because these are the victims. Just before the flood, the Republicans were in the process of massive Medicade cuts for the poor and a tax cut for the rich (death tax) have all gone up in flames as a result of the tragedy.
The tens of millions which could have been used to reinforce those dams were diverted to the war which was wrong. The Army Corp of engineers have been telling us for the past several years the current condition of those leveis were not enough and needed funding. It will now cost hundreds of billions to repair the city of New Orleans so there went your tax cut. The current administration was hands off in New Orleans and look what happened. CNBC reported it may cost close to 300 billion to rebuild the city. Hands off was a pretty expensive lession.
Contrary to popular Republican belief Merriwether, the current administration does not believe in small government for Home Land Secruity is probably the largest government spending program since the Great Society. Furthermore, Presidents Social Security perscription program (Medicare) will require billions and will exceed the cost of Social Security (in 25 years) which we haven't even paid for! Was the Governement hands off in regard to Iraq? Afgahanistan?
I live next to Hoboken NJ which is below sea level and would ALWAY get flooded during a rain storm practically each year. Seriously. My mother used to work in that city and would tell me of horror stories of how they had to swim for their lives during the floods. Hoboken was a poor community during the 1970's and the government for the most part didn't care one bit about the people or the factories living there. Sound similar right?
Around the 1990's, gentrification (sp) began taking place and Hoboken became a hot spot as real estate prices went through the roof. All the poor blacks and hispanics were moved to housing projects by the railroad tracks but the flooding problems continued. Somehow, the Army Corp of engineers managed to "fix" the problem costing tens of millions of dollars now that the people who were living there were no longer poor if you get my drift. Today, the floods that plagued Hoboken since inception are long gone not because the government took a hands off approach but due to pressure put on state legislature to do the right thing.
Well put, thanks for some thought provoking ideas, I have approx same geographical features as you.
rs_woods
My point was that even though most people don't live in New Orleans, and in fact a lot have never even visited it, they still feel like they know the course the city should take in the future. How could you make such demands when you never even experienced the place? Even people who visited as tourists never lived here, and don't have much more authority than someone who lives in freakin' Belfast. Most non-New Orleanians didn't even know what a levee was until a few weeks ago, but they are quick to make demands regarding the reconstruction MY home. New Orleans is not a federal project. It's a city in southeast louisiana. Nobody but it's residents will decide it's future.
eric1508
The Presidents budget cuts for the city of New Orleans prevented the Army Corp or Engineers from completing the necessary work that might have prevented the disaster in the first place.
It is my understanding that the leveys that broke were the ones that HAD been completed to the Engineers specs. The ones that couldn't be built up to their standards held without issue. I am not saying that they don't need to be built up but if this is true than the whole "Bush's budget cuts caused the floods" argument becomes a moot point.
Roody
My point was that even though most people don't live in New Orleans, and in fact a lot have never even visited it, they still feel like they know the course the city should take in the future. How could you make such demands when you never even experienced the place? Even people who visited as tourists never lived here, and don't have much more authority than someone who lives in freakin' Belfast. Most non-New Orleanians didn't even know what a levee was until a few weeks ago, but they are quick to make demands regarding the reconstruction MY home. New Orleans is not a federal project. It's a city in southeast louisiana. Nobody but it's residents will decide it's future.I totally agree. I'm sorry if my posts or anyone else's suggested otherwise. I am very critical of the way the different governments handled this disaster, both before and after the hurricane hit. This issue does affect us all personally, because a similar catastrophe could strike anywhere, anytime. We want to be better prepared for the next hit than we were for Katrina. Also, everybody in America, in the world, feels terrible about what happened in four southern states. We especially feel bad about New Orleans, because it was so nightmarish, and because we have a special fondness for the city, even if we have never been there. In some ways, we all "know what it means to miss New Orleans."
Obviously, the south is going to need a lot of assistance from state and federal governments, and even from people and governments all over the world. I am hopeful that we will give graciously, understanding that our gifts do not give us the right to dictate the path that New Orleans will take in the future. That's up to y'all to decide!
rs, I sure hope you're coming through this OK. If we can help, give a shout. If you have ideas about where we should send money or gifts, where they will most help people, let us know that too. Hang in there mon ami.
folder fanatic
For Merriwether: Once upon a time the United States was not so centralize as it turned into at present. The states took care of it's own and if it could not, the citizens that did not like the situations they found themselves in be it mostly natural disasters made worse by man made structures (i.e. earthquakes, floods, dust bowls) the people either rebuild or more likely migrated (evacuated) out of the affected areas. That was a long time ago you say? Actually the crisises happened in the memories of a lot of living people's (or their decendants) memories. And I know this by the reason my father came to California back in 1935. He did not want to be a burden to his adopted parents when the goverment no longer paid them for his keep. He chose to leave his familiar surroundings rather than see them suffer more than they had to-in the middle of The Great Depression of the 1930's.
Merriwether
Merriwether:
I could not disagree with you more.
The Republicans are on the run in this situation because it happened on their watch. They're trying to put the blame on the people and it won't work because these are the victims. Just before the flood, the Republicans were in the process of massive Medicade cuts for the poor and a tax cut for the rich (death tax) have all gone up in flames as a result of the tragedy.
The tens of millions which could have been used to reinforce those dams were diverted to the war which was wrong. The Army Corp of engineers have been telling us for the past several years the current condition of those leveis were not enough and needed funding. It will now cost hundreds of billions to repair the city of New Orleans so there went your tax cut. The current administration was hands off in New Orleans and look what happened. CNBC reported it may cost close to 300 billion to rebuild the city. Hands off was a pretty expensive lession.
Contrary to popular Republican belief Merriwether, the current administration does not believe in small government for Home Land Secruity is probably the largest government spending program since the Great Society. Furthermore, Presidents Social Security perscription program (Medicare) will require billions and will exceed the cost of Social Security (in 25 years) which we haven't even paid for! Was the Governement hands off in regard to Iraq? Afgahanistan?
I live next to Hoboken NJ which is below sea level and would ALWAY get flooded during a rain storm practically each year. Seriously. My mother used to work in that city and would tell me of horror stories of how they had to swim for their lives during the floods. Hoboken was a poor community during the 1970's and the government for the most part didn't care one bit about the people or the factories living there. Sound similar right?
Around the 1990's, gentrification (sp) began taking place and Hoboken became a hot spot as real estate prices went through the roof. All the poor blacks and hispanics were moved to housing projects by the railroad tracks but the flooding problems continued. Somehow, the Army Corp of engineers managed to "fix" the problem costing tens of millions of dollars now that the people who were living there were no longer poor if you get my drift. Today, the floods that plagued Hoboken since inception are long gone not because the government took a hands off approach but due to pressure put on state legislature to do the right thing.
You say you're disagreeing with me here, but you are making a number of claims that, as far as I can see, having nothing to do with anything I said. Somewhere in my post above I said the Republican party was implementing plans, if it still has any such, for a smaller federal government?
To return to the actual topic of my post-- the failure of government in the New Orleans flooding-- it's difficult to understand how anyone could disagree with me. You'll notice I don't exclude the federal government from charges of failure. Though the Bush Administration has actually spent more federal money on flood engineering in Louisiana than did the Clinton Administration, there's no question that if it's worth the staggering amounts of money required to rebuild New Orleans then it certainly was worth what it would have cost to make the levees proof against a hurricane.
However satisfying it might be to some of you to imagine that the hurricane is a sign of cosmic disapproval of the Bush Administration, though, the fact remains that the failure to respond competently to the flooding was largely of the state and city governments. It is their responsibility to create and implement emergency plans, and they simply didn't do it. It wasn't George Bush, after all, who left a fleet of busses that could have evacuated thousands to sit idle in floodwaters. (No doubt those busses were rolling on election day, though, to get all those good Democrat voters out to the polls.) And Louisiana has been a bastion of corruption and incompetence far in excess of the ordinary standards of Southern Democrat machine-politics far longer than Bush has been in office.
Government failures aside, it should not be overlooked that the large majority of people who were caught in the flooding were able-bodied people who disregarded the warnings to evacuate. I don't welcome saying that in the face of the suffering many of those people underwent, but in response to what's above it simply has to be said. I understand it's an irresistiable temptation to many in our present political climate to insist that the citizenry, or at least some segment of it, is infantile, and cannot be expected to take even life-saving precautions without the maternal hand of big government. We all know the world requires us to be grownups sometimes, though, even if pretending otherwise on this board helps stoke anger at the Bush Administration.
I don't know if you actually expect me to take seriously the risible claim that only the poor are neglected victims of flooding. Anyone who pays attention to the aftermath of Florida hurricanes or California fires and mudslides is well aware that rich people have their homes destroyed all the time by these events-- disproportionately so since they live disproportionately on the coasts. True, they routinely have their homes restored through government largesse, something I don't agree with, but this is no more than will happen in New Orleans, too.
Some people just could not get out of the flooded areas, true. That is, of course, horrible. Horrible that they were flooded out because government didn't do its job, and horrible that they were abandoned by the good citizens of New Orleans who might have helped them.
In any case, I simply hope recent events will cause some people to think twice about turning over the nation's health care to the same people who couldn't build levees properly in New Orleans.
And, as I was saying, it's worth reflecting on what you, personally, will do in a disaster, to keep you from having to rely on the organizations that, to put it gently, are just not reliable.
cyclezealot
Back to the topic of the private auto saving your arse in a disaster..If not for traffic backed up hundreds of miles ; the problem of those unable to afford all the financial strains of the private auto ,makes it less likely one can escape..Insurance,escalating gasoline prices, falling wages. Those living pay check to pay check,how far will $100 in savings get you in a disaster.?
Since hurricanes, floods are multi-state in scope- the wages of that distruction seems definitely at the national level. Besides, how many of the states are anything but broke.
Seems Hurricane response in Florida had a different state of awareness - but then Florida has more electoral votes.
We all need more advance planning..Can't afford gas, just darn well walk, hurricanes travel pretty slow..
folder fanatic
Walk? Where? Most places in the United States are very far apart and you cannot even buy milk at the local supermarket. The store is usually over 5 miles away and can only be reached by car (not counting the long walk across the asphalt parking lot surrounding the typical shopping areas.
Be realistic, Cyclezealot. Some are elderly, disabled, crazy or just plain misinformed or too trusting with the authorities. Don't automatically assume they are lucky as you with good health, bright educated mind, and access to money (ATMs).
cyclezealot
Fanatic...Sorry at times I am somewhat a happy, sarcastic..It was meant to be sarcastic...We obviously need a greater sense of community...I would say it seems the likely public attitude as of now..
Well, Can't escape a hurricane...walk..We now have precident to prove it.
nolageek
How Amtrak wasn't used to move as many people out as possible is puzzling to me. Was Amtrak still charging to use their services? Why didn't the government set up contracts for the trains and buses to move out as many people as possible (as well as mobilize as many airlines as possible)? Did they think the hurricanes wouldn't be as bad as they were? Did they underestimate how easily people could get out of town?
I have so many questions. Partly because my mom's kin (some of them very old, some of them sick, and a lot of them poor) were unable to get out in time, and now, they're living in deplorable conditions, and some of them we can't find! The whole situation is sad, pathetic, and disturbing (besides sickening me).
Koffee
Not sure if anyone answereed this... but Amtrak said they couldn't spare any trains until November... I guess they were all booked up. What jerks.
Speaking of jerks.. . I have a friend who went back to his place in Jefferson who is offering to let me stay in his apartment until New Orleans opens up in a few weeks. His sister/landlord says I have to pay a $750 NON-refundable pet deposit if I'm going to stay there with my cats for any longer than 2 or 3 days. "It's in the lease." What a heartless person. She knows I lost everything too. So gross.
Dahon.Steve
Not sure if anyone answereed this... but Amtrak said they couldn't spare any trains until November... I guess they were all booked up. What jerks.
It's horrible for Amtrak to leave those passengers stranded in the middle of the storm. Incredible.
Dahon.Steve
Here's an article that points to fault of the disaster on the car free lifestyle. Don't blame the the lack of public transportation, president, mayor, governor but the people themselves for not buying cars.
What Randal O' Toole doesn't understand is that motorized transport is unafforadble for those living below the poverty level and building more highways in New Orleans would have had similar results. Furthermore, who would want to visit New Orleans if it were one big strip mall? You don't travel half way across the nation to see a big box store!
Mobility counted most in fleeing New Orleans
By Randal O'Toole
Special to The Times
Randal O'Toole
People will be debating the causes of the New Orleans tragedy for years to come. But one thing is already abundantly clear: For individual New Orleanians, automobility made the difference between safety and disaster.
"The white people got out," an article in The New York Times declared shortly after Hurricane Katrina hit. But that isn't quite true. White families with cars got out, as did black families with cars. Families without cars, white and black, for the most part did not.
Over the past century, the number of deaths due to natural disasters such as hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and fires has steadily declined from as many as 12,000 in a 1900 hurricane to a few dozen per year up until this year. This decline is largely due to the increased mobility provided by the automobile.
People with cars can leave before a storm hits. When earthquakes or other unpredictable events take place, people with cars can move away from areas that lack food, safe water or other essentials.
What made New Orleans vulnerable was that a third of its households do not own an automobile. This compares with just 10 percent of households in the rest of the nation. When 90 percent of people can evacuate themselves, coordination of the remaining 10 percent is far easier than if public officials have to help 33 percent move.
Automobiles provide many benefits other than just emergency services. Numerous studies show, for example, that low-income people are far more likely to have a job, to earn more and to get out of poverty if they own an auto than if they must rely on public transit. Many anti-poverty groups today are working to help low-income families buy their first car.
Rather than help its low-income residents achieve greater automobility, New Orleans transportation planners decided years ago that their highest priority was to provide heavily subsidized streetcar rides for tourists. Planners rejected the idea of building an elevated freeway through the city that would have helped people escape no matter how deep the flood waters.
Instead, they spent around $160 million building five miles of tourist-oriented streetcar lines and were planning to spend another $120 million on another line. That money would have been enough to buy a brand-new car for every low-income family in New Orleans that didn't own a car.
While that might not have been the best use of the region's transportation funds, it would have produced far more benefits than the streetcars not to mention helped save the day after Hurricane Katrina.
When I suggest these ideas to some of my friends, they are outraged. What about community and cooperation, they say? But community is achieved by helping our neighbors, not by being dependent for transport on a government agency that may just leave the buses to be flooded in a parking lot.
Buses are so much more efficient than cars, my friends add, that people should use them to escape a disaster instead of driving. But buses are too uncertain. Are they going where you need to go? Will they take your pets and belongings? Will one be around to take you back when you are ready to go home?
Because no one wants to be dependent on the whims of other people's rules and schedules, many carless New Orleanians who had an opportunity to take a bus preferred to stay.
Personally, I would rather bicycle or take the train anywhere than drive. But we can't let personal preferences or ideology get in the way of the basic facts: Most New Orleanians with autos were able to escape, while most without autos were not.
What does this mean for Seattle? Many Seattle residents dream of building a New Orleans-like city with high densities with low rates of auto ownership. This will only make Seattleites more vulnerable to our own forms of natural disasters.
Longtime residents know that Seattle can be hit by windstorms and floods, not to mention the Northwest's own peculiar brand of disaster: volcanoes. When not if Mount Rainier blows up, if the winds happen to be from the southeast, a monorail to West Seattle is not going to do you much good.
folder fanatic
"People with cars can leave before a storm hits. When earthquakes or other unpredictable events take place, people with cars can move away from areas that lack food, safe water or other essentials."
Like hell they can. Ever heard of gridlock, mass panic or even hysteria, taking advantage of a unpredictable situration and commit car jacks? Cars may be much faster than almost any other form of transportation available to most of the population (i.e. here in Los Angeles), but it is not the sure answer to mass evacuation.
The author seems not to be very familiar with earthquakes. In event of a moderate to major earthquake, most roads could not be safe (fallen bridges) or probably clogged with fallen debris to pass through unless you have a special (maybe a off road 4 wheel drive with special tires) vehicle that might be able to tackle it. Another thing to worry about is the fact that there are only about 1 major road in each direction of the Los Angeles basin. Perhaps most other cities are similar to us (New Orleans was). Assuming you made it out, where can you go? Would you be welcomed there if you make it? History points out that refugess, evacuees or whatever they are called are usually not welcomed unless they offer something of value to the receiving community.
The thing to remember is that there is no hard and fast rule to whether or not to evacuate or not. My father always told me that most of the time it is better not to leave a familiar area where you know the layout of the places that will assure you of survival (grocery stores, camping supplies, Army surplus,posible shelter, fresh water, etc.) than an unfamiliar one with settled possibly hostile people.
JohnBrooking
I'm all for impeaching Bush, then we'll have President Cheney. I never thought I'd find so many Chaney supporters on this board. (/sarcasm)
You've got to hand it to the Bushes. The one thing they've both proven to be very good at is insuring their safety by choosing someone even less desirable than themselves as their VP! :D
JohnBrooking
...
At any rate, whatever the broader political lessons here, surely it's obvious that as individuals you all should prepare to handle disasters without government assistance. If you don't have several days of clean water stored at home, get a $4 container at WalMart and store some. Keep a few flashlights handy with lots of batteries. Have enough canned food on hand to feed your household for a week. Keep important documents in a centralized location for quick removal. You can add camping equipment as you desire, a small generator, perhaps, or one of those large battery-plus-inverter power sources. Warm clothing, blankets, first aid supplies, are cheap additions to a disaster kit. If anyone would have been uncomfortable in the neighborhoods of New Orleans after the flooding without a firearm, he can draw the obvious conclusion there, too.
...
And if your house was flooded up to the attic, what about all that bottled water and canned food, the generator, etc? Although I see your point about personal preparedness, what is the point of government if not to assist its citizens in efforts which are too big for any one or small group of them? Assistance in natural disasters certainly counts as civil defense as much as protection from invasion by a foreign power, doesn't it?
folder fanatic
I think goverment, especially at the state and federal level, has moved away from it's traditional reason for existance. The population of average people is now considered expendable and has been since the Cold War's start at the end of World War 2. We the people only exist to serve this military industrial complex. Nothing more. Katrina has proved this for me.
nolageek
My point was that even though most people don't live in New Orleans, and in fact a lot have never even visited it, they still feel like they know the course the city should take in the future. How could you make such demands when you never even experienced the place? Even people who visited as tourists never lived here, and don't have much more authority than someone who lives in freakin' Belfast. Most non-New Orleanians didn't even know what a levee was until a few weeks ago, but they are quick to make demands regarding the reconstruction MY home. New Orleans is not a federal project. It's a city in southeast louisiana. Nobody but it's residents will decide it's future.
rs, I dont unerstand your point. As a lifelong resident of New Orleans I can agree that only the residents SHOULD be allowed to decide our future... too bad on a whole we're the laziest, poorest educated city in the nation. What, 60% of our residents bother vote? and even then it's only because polititians give them $5 and a bus ride to the polls. It's rediculous that you think that just because someone doesn't live here, they cant can't see the problems this city has. It's as plain as day on the news. The most uneducated and poorest of the poor are left behind all because the system basically forgot about them until they live on TV, dying in the streets, looting, raping and pillaging. Then they just hid them in Houston.
I'm curious to see if they pay to bus them back.
You don't need to be a New Orleanian to know what happened here and know, at least on a broad level how to fix it. Honestly, it can be sumed up in one word: Education.
The REAL crazy thing is I can't wait to get back. The red beans in Montgomery suck and there's not one single brass band.