Mountain Biking - "Science proves MtnBiking more harmful then hiking."

http://www.culturechange.org/mountain_biking_impacts.htm
I'm sure this very same article has already been posted and discussed here, and, again.... I'll get my ass chewed off for not researching past posts, But I did!! And couldnt find anything "much" on "The Impact Mtn Biking Has On The Environment.
But this article made me feel kinda guilty while reading it. Granted I haven't finished it yet but I'm afraid our Mtn Biking in the hills days are limited. Good thing my family owns 25 acres of Montana wilderness. (Sorry, hiking not allowed.) What irks me though is that they, them, the ones who want to rid the hills of mtn biking accuse me, and the rest of us that we arn't envronmentalist but just use the wilderness for a playground. Thats not true, right? We all love the environment, I think.

There are more studies saying the opposite to. In reality every time we encroach on the environment we cause damage.

My mountains aren't going to be limited. The trails are built correctly and re-enforced. Things will remain here for quite some time. Poor trail building is the biggest bane of the mountain biker.

Having done both, I agree with the article.
But let's get down to business here. A well maintained trail
won't turn into a small disaster. This is all about caring for what you use. Whether you hike or bike, if the trails you use are not maintained, they will degrade dramatically.

I'd take the article with a grain of salt. The article is written by Vandeman afterall, if he had it his way, life in general would be pushed all the way back to the Amoebic Era.

Jeez, that debat still around? Save the planet moron, kill yourself.

Looks like hes been given'er for a while. Checkout the kook in may 1998 ;)

http://www.lart.com/auk/whiners.html

He's just another self-righteous nutjob looking for something to complain about. So what if mountain biking causes a little erosion, so do his precious bears he mentions in the first sentence. Heck, they even eat his precious plants and animals. Besides, that little bit of erosion is nothing compared to an 8-lane highway. Conservation is a good cause, but you can only take it so far. While any trail user should take care not to abuse it so it remains available for others, a little wear and tear is to be expected.

At first I figured this was another hiker who had a bad encounter with a rude mountain biker, but reading his article, it sounds to me like he'll take the same stance against anyone who doesn't share his environmental views.



Having been a transportation activist for eight years (working on stopping highway construction), and having a favorable view of my fellow bicyclists as environmentalists, I turned to them to help me campaign to keep bicycles out of natural areas. Was I ever surprised! I discovered that many bicyclists (e.g. many mountain bikers) aren't environmentalists at all, but are simply people who like to bicycle
Wow. Deep insight on that one doc.

Also, because many mountain bikers are after thrills and speed, their tires cut into the ground. Slamming on the brakes after zooming downhill, sliding around sharp corners, and digging in to go uphill: I see the results of this behavior weekly. …
I don't see how our tires "cut" into the ground; no more than horseshoes to say the least. And we all know how we all love to bomb down a hill and drift around corners, and spin out the rear wheel on purpose while climbing. :rolleyes:

It's all a bunch of hooey.

http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/socialnemesis/asherr/colin_clive.jpg

That Dude looks like Hitler after a shave....

They say the same thing about all hunters, all campers, all rafters/kayakers, all anyone that does anything outside... We all know that there are "bad apples" that do stupid things and give everyone else a bad name, but really, the people that write these articles or complaining, in my experience, don't even utilize the outdoors much. They sit in their houses, or office in some giant skyscraper and ***** about us having fun oustise.
Obviously people with those sentiments are extreme and cannot be helped to anywhere near this side of logic or sanity, but where do they think that there houses and skyscrapers come from? I assure everyone here that they don't grow like mushrooms or something. Where every house and office building sits, used to be where Bambi , streams ran clear, and all of that. So, I for one will stop doing everything I do that is "destroying, irreprably harming, etc..." the environment, [I]when[/I, we can burn down the cities, let nature do 'er thing, and then ride there. :eek:
Oh yeah, as a scientist, I hate it when dumba$$es use "science" to back up their, otherwise unprovable claim, when in fact, no SCIENCE was actually used. People are always telling me, "well science shows..." and I just respond "really, show me..." they can't because there is no scientific data to show for such absurd accusations. <step off of soapbox>
:beer: cheers.

The guy is definately a nut, I used to read Culture Change when I was researching transportation alternatives. However, after they posted this drivel I never went back.

Related to erosion though, one thing that realllly bugs me is people who drag their back wheels on descents. "Skid in your shorts, not on the trail" to borrow a line from Kona.

Unfortunately, much of the public cannot play by the rules. I see many areas around me destroyed by late nite partiers. Trash and broken glass everywhere.

Humans, are animals. And like all animals we belong outside. The only reason there is an inside is because at one point we needed a break from the ouside. Then we spent so much time inside that going outside seemed wrong.
Our ancesters shaped everything around them because as a species that is what we do.
The idea that riding through the woods on bikes is doing any measurably comparable damage to this planet is beyond logical reasoning. We have crossed this planed with concrete roads, but a dirt path 2 feet wide is somehow going to topple mother nature?

Not wanting blow my own trumpet, but I have an Honours Degree in Environmental Science (as well as a Masters in computing :D ) - part of the course looked at things like errosion and mans inpact on the soils. MTBs' do damage the lanscape, just as every other user does. Bikes are no more worse than hikers.

The ramblers association here in the UK has a motto "Leave only footprints", yet its those thousands of foot steps that do much of the damage. If you really want to save the country side, ban the hikers, but of course most hikers are generally middle-class white folk (here in the UK) who are more likely to be able to aply political pressure. I've had more than one argument out on a trail with some middleage know-it-all, only to bring them down to size with the facts.

Its an argument that'll go on and on - at least here in the UK the National Parks Authority and the Forestry commision are working to protect the country side with out limiting peoples acess - whether they be on foot or bike, but then the advantage we have is the "Right to Roam" legislation that protects the many paths and tracks - my Island, which is 7 miles by 13 has over 300 miles of public paths and tracks. Where as I'm half quessing that in the US most land is privatly owned and acess limited?

Well you guys made some excellent points so I'm not gonna worry about it. What I need to worry about is all the great bike and hiking trails that are dissappearing in my area and being replaced with multi-million dollar homes and golf courses.

Well you guys made some excellent points so I'm not gonna worry about it. What I need to worry about is all the great bike and hiking trails that are dissappearing in my area and being replaced with multi-million dollar homes and golf courses.

Bingo! What's-his-nuts would probably argue that's okay...as long as you're not mountain biking.:rolleyes:

He lost any respect from me the second I read that he'd never ridden a MTB. I'll tell ya what, why don't you bring your dumb ass out to the local horse trail and see how lightly they tread? Oh, and don't forget the deer, turkey, buzzards, raccoons, opossums, foxes, etc, etc....

Trail users who actually give a damn ride them with respect. They don't skid, they build (with approval from land management) sustainable trails that have minimal impact on the surrounding terrain / ecosystem, most of them perform trail maintenance as a way of saying "thanks for having such a great trail". MTB'ers as a whole get lumped into a pretty ******* catagory because of a small percentage of "bikers" who are jackasses. It's unfair, and the only way we can defend ourselves is to make our voices heard by joining local and national advocacy groups .

where are all them tree huggers when they want to take that "wilderness area" and turn it into a neighborhood or mall? Ill tell ya where . with their real estate agent trying to get first dibs on the best lots, or at the car dealer buying a new peice of construction equipment sized SUV to drive to the new mall, thats where. most and I say most mountain bikers spend at least 1/4 of their free time working on trails and not just riding them or being involved in some form or fashion in trail advocacy

where are all them tree huggers when they want to take that "wilderness area" and turn it into a neighborhood or mall? Ill tell ya where . with their real estate agent trying to get first dibs on the best lots, or at the car dealer buying a new peice of construction equipment sized SUV to drive to the new mall, thats where.
Not always the case. You've known me long enough to know that I tend to lean an the green side of the fence and none of what I quoted from you applies to me

I don't know if you guys know the history behind this article, but Mike Vandeman was (maybe still is) a regular at the alt.mountain-bike newsgroup. He harrasses all the off-roaders there, and is a plain nuissance to the community there.

He's got a personal mission to get all bikes off trails, and won't let up till he wins. His research is obviously biased.

I don't know if you guys know the history behind this article, but Mike Vandeman was (maybe still is) a regular at the alt.mountain-bike newsgroup. He harrasses all the off-roaders there, and is a plain nuissance to the community there.

He's got a personal mission to get all bikes off trails, and won't let up till he wins. His research is obviously biased.
I know perfectly well who this ****stain is. If memory serves he was a member here too until he crossed the line one too many times and got himself banned.

I know perfectly well who this ****stain is. If memory serves he was a member here too until he crossed the line one too many times and got himself banned.

He only lasted an hour here.

While I agree with the general quote, this guy is an asshat.

Some of his articles are so skewed it's like reading trail propaganda.

One word: dumbf***. That guy needs to get a life instead of whining.

Bingo! What's-his-nuts would probably argue that's okay...as long as you're not mountain biking.:rolleyes:

He lost any respect from me the second I read that he'd never ridden a MTB. I'll tell ya what, why don't you bring your dumb ass out to the local horse trail and see how lightly they tread? Oh, and don't forget the deer, turkey, buzzards, raccoons, opossums, foxes, etc, etc....

Actually, if you read his stuff, you find out he also seems to be against nice houses, too. He was very clear that he is an active oponent of all new highway construction in his area. He's a slim two steps away from the type of person who thinks that the best thing for the world would be for everyone to cut themselves up into little cubes and feed themselves to the poor starving lions in Africa.

Actually, if you read his stuff, you find out he also seems to be against nice houses, too. He was very clear that he is an active oponent of all new highway construction in his area. He's a slim two steps away from the type of person who thinks that the best thing for the world would be for everyone to cut themselves up into little cubes and feed themselves to the poor starving lions in Africa.

Of course, he is a people hater, anything that allows us to have fun or keeps our species thriving (houses, highways, etc...) he will ***** about it. Where do we suppose he lives? In a man-made yurt somewhere? Does he walk through the woods to work? Doubt it, he probably *****es the people out that drive by him on the freeway...a sad, sad existence :rolleyes:

Umm, guys?
Any chance you can discuss this like grownups? These are not simple issues that are going to go away. You are going to have to
find a workable solution that balances the competing interests, and repairs the damage. Hikers spend enormous amouts of time and money working on trails. I don't see that level of commitment
in Mtn bikers yet.

What I'd like to see from the Mtn bike community is what I have seen in the hiking community. I have worked to expand the area of federally designanted wilderness here in my state. This has meant losing some things that I, as a hiker, liked very much.
You can't have everything. And to be blunt,some of the responses I am reading here are not going to tell people you are interested in repsonsible stewarship.
We have a responsiblity to perserve our wilderness for future generations.

To be honest, I completely agree with Late. Although, bc has a large group of riders, most active, some political and a lot of builders (relative to the size...) and excellent advocacy. I think more places need to try and model themselves after a good solid model that is both political and pro-active. If things keep going the way they are going I will likely continue to hear how trails are closing in the states and east coast.

While this guy is a crackpot with studies created out of bullcrap, his points are to some degree valid, although extreme :)

Amazing! I'm stunned. I never heard of this guy. I was just looking for MTN Bike stuff on the Internet and this article came up on the search. Had I not posted it on the forum I'd had slapped some smoothies on the old Rockhopper by now and bought some hiking shoes.
Thanks guys for setting me streight.
Also while riding along the creek between the new golf courses and huge homes I spotted a cyotee (Why don't we have spell check?) and some wild turkeys. It was cool! I bet that trail will be only for horse riding soon.

Spell check would be hugely intensive on the server. Do a google for a tool called iespell. Very very useful :)

To be honest, I completely agree with Late. Although, bc has a large group of riders, most active, some political and a lot of builders (relative to the size...) and excellent advocacy. I think more places need to try and model themselves after a good solid model that is both political and pro-active. If things keep going the way they are going I will likely continue to hear how trails are closing in the states and east coast.

While this guy is a crackpot with studies created out of bullcrap, his points are to some degree valid, although extreme :)
"What can I do to help keep the trails open?"
I think I'll join the IMBA and get involved in a local chapter in my area. I just learned that they organize volunteers to clean and fix trails. And theres dinner and beer afterwards.

Several things

1) organize the bikers/teams/clubs. The more members the more political clout. Organize mass weekly rides to keep this mass club as one.
2) with this said club, start a trail building/maintenance team. Get tips and tricks for proper trail building with erosion in mind. Provide proofs and examples of how and why what you are building will help stop erosion. The trail is there already, what the majority of enviro groups are concerned with is mass erosion. This can usually be stopped by moving the trail and/or using bridges.
3) maintain the trails. After they are built, they may need to be moved or redone every year or so. We have a trail called river runs through it. Built on a swamp. Costs Worca (whistler offroad) a fortune to maintain. But we have over 1000members paying 40$ a year to join.
4) try and find a moderate enviro group to work with. We are lucky here because they work together. The nsmba is usually known for saving trails. If you can get some clout from the 'other' side you end up with an ace up your sleeve.

The reason the other side is winning is because only one side is giving the politicians the education. The nuts give them endless proofs while the mountain bikers come online and whine and complain without providing anything useful to the politicans. Mt Fromme (this is the mountain that represent the North Shore to the rest of the world) was close to being close (or parts of it) they already had an organization in place. Decades of work and there was still some nut working against them. The nsmba really took it to the politicians, provided proofs, examples and even tours of the trails to show the work they did. It took work, money and all the riders working together. But, guess what, the trails on fromme are still there.

BTW this crackpot I believe, worked as a contractor for the 'other' side. So he can be beat.

I have been online for 3 or 4 years and have read about many trails closing becuase of the enviro groups being more organized and more powerful (money) Mountain bikers don't tend to be very organized, maybe its the nature of how we are really all individuals, but even your biking group (don't remember the name) doesn't have enough power to really do much. They help trail by trail but it seems to be a loosing battle from what I read. I might be wrong, I am just going by articles and online conjecture.

Several things

1) organize the bikers/teams/clubs. The more members the more political clout. Organize mass weekly rides to keep this mass club as one.
2) with this said club, start a trail building/maintenance team. Get tips and tricks for proper trail building with erosion in mind. Provide proofs and examples of how and why what you are building will help stop erosion. The trail is there already, what the majority of enviro groups are concerned with is mass erosion. This can usually be stopped by moving the trail and/or using bridges.
3) maintain the trails. After they are built, they may need to be moved or redone every year or so. We have a trail called river runs through it. Built on a swamp. Costs Worca (whistler offroad) a fortune to maintain. But we have over 1000members paying 40$ a year to join.
4) try and find a moderate enviro group to work with. We are lucky here because they work together. The nsmba is usually known for saving trails. If you can get some clout from the 'other' side you end up with an ace up your sleeve.

The reason the other side is winning is because only one side is giving the politicians the education. The nuts give them endless proofs while the mountain bikers come online and whine and complain without providing anything useful to the politicans. Mt Fromme (this is the mountain that represent the North Shore to the rest of the world) was close to being close (or parts of it) they already had an organization in place. Decades of work and there was still some nut working against them. The nsmba really took it to the politicians, provided proofs, examples and even tours of the trails to show the work they did. It took work, money and all the riders working together. But, guess what, the trails on fromme are still there.

BTW this crackpot I believe, worked as a contractor for the 'other' side. So he can be beat.

I have been online for 3 or 4 years and have read about many trails closing becuase of the enviro groups being more organized and more powerful (money) Mountain bikers don't tend to be very organized, maybe its the nature of how we are really all individuals, but even your biking group (don't remember the name) doesn't have enough power to really do much. They help trail by trail but it seems to be a loosing battle from what I read. I might be wrong, I am just going by articles and online conjecture.

Ha! I was just researching what I could do while while you were writting you essay. Thank-you Maelstrom

Not always the case. You've known me long enough to know that I tend to lean an the green side of the fence and none of what I quoted from you applies to me


UMMMMMM Id never considered you a tree hugger. environmentally responsible? yes. a tree hugger( someone who wants at all costs for you to believe as they do evironmentally) no.
I do not see you as the type to booby trap trails because you dont want bikers on them, or putting fishing line across trail heads at neck level because some owl flew through that section of trail once.or any other EXTREMEist measures. I do see you going all out to stop AOLese but not as a tree hugger

MORE of Richmond Va. got the governors award for excellence recently for the work being done in Virginia to trails, education of trail building/maintenence, rider skills, teach the teachers program( the Chesterfield school teachers were tought basic skills and will teach their students on actual trails) advcacy with the local governments etc. basically they started with an existing trail and did advocacy of it and then spread from there into a group that rivals our big brother ( NoVaMORE). we are in most parks in central Va. and are also the first bike club allowed to do work In Petersburg National Battlefield.
a dedicated group can get organized and make a difference. it just takes time and dedication. I have been maintaining 15 miles of trails in the above mentioned national park by myself for over a year but its worth it to keep them open until more folks can help as the club grows.
there is soooo much needed in Rchmond most of the hours are needed there and those projects are almost done

UMMMMMM Id never considered you a tree hugger. environmentally responsible? yes. a tree hugger( someone who wants at all costs for you to believe as they do evironmentally) no.
I do not see you as the type to booby trap trails because you dont want bikers on them, or putting fishing line across trail heads at neck level because some owl flew through that section of trail once.or any other EXTREMEist measures. I do see you going all out to stop AOLese but not as a tree hugger
Thank you for that clarification tas, but what you describe as a "tree-hugger" is what I describe as an "eco-terrorist". These are the same ****wads who spike trees that have been designated to be culled in order to create fire breaks to prevent forest fires from harming communities. With some foresight and planning we can have our comfortable way of life as well as our fun and not screw the planet in the process.