Paul L.
09-09-05, 03:06 PM
Since there has been a big debate about Critical Mass and various cyclists opinions of it I am curious as to how many of us are actually for this and how many are against it. Is this valid bicycle advocacy?
View Full Version : For it or against it "Critical Mass"
barenakedbiker
09-09-05, 06:41 PM
http://worldcarfree.net/nyc/
Treespeed
09-09-05, 06:45 PM
I voted for, but only because I support the idea of cyclists being able to do CM rides unmolested by the police. I don't think it affects advocacy one way or another. No one in my entire office has even heard of CM.
michaelnel
09-09-05, 06:48 PM
You need a "I don't care one way or the other" choice in the poll.
kwhord
09-09-05, 06:54 PM
I'm for it: but i dont think it helps advocacy. You would have to be delusional to think so.
John E
09-09-05, 08:11 PM
I remain opposed to Critical Mass, because I think it generally generates bad publicity. However, I strongly favor vocal activism at the appropriate levels of government.
barenakedbiker
09-09-05, 08:14 PM
I remain opposed to Critical Mass, because I think it generally generates bad publicity. However, I strongly favor vocal activism at the appropriate levels of government.
Bad publicity...good publicity...it's all publicity. If CM ever gets mention on Rush Limbaugh, like Cindy Sheehan, man, oh man!
Bad publicity...good publicity...it's all publicity. If CM ever gets mention on Rush Limbaugh, like Cindy Sheehan, man, oh man!
filtersweep
09-09-05, 08:22 PM
I voted for, but only because I support the idea of cyclists being able to do CM rides unmolested by the police. I don't think it affects advocacy one way or another. No one in my entire office has even heard of CM.
Yeah... it sucks that police harrass cyclists who run red lights en masse (to stick together as a group)- who sometimes stop in the middle on intersections just to be obnoxious... who veer into oncoming traffic. CM is more about civil disobedience than cycling advocacy.
CM at its best: just because it is legal doesn't mean it is a good idea.
Yeah... it sucks that police harrass cyclists who run red lights en masse (to stick together as a group)- who sometimes stop in the middle on intersections just to be obnoxious... who veer into oncoming traffic. CM is more about civil disobedience than cycling advocacy.
CM at its best: just because it is legal doesn't mean it is a good idea.
patc
09-09-05, 08:46 PM
I hate these polls! If I say that I am "for" CM, then I must also vote, "it helps advocate bicycling rights". Those two statements do not necessarily belong together!
ViciousCycle
09-09-05, 09:42 PM
I remain opposed to Critical Mass, because I think it generally generates bad publicity.
In Chicago, it's amusing to watch the tourists watch Critical Mass go by. The tourists often get big goofy grins on their face and snap a lot of pictures. Of course, the ride often has a lot of eye-candy. A three-piece band pulled by bicycle. A roller-blader playing the trombone. Homemade bikes that are are as tall as buses. I wouldn't call it "advocacy"; I'd just call it "a happy hour with bikes instead of beers."
As a side-note, the City of Chicago is currently looking into a pilot program to have recurring Sundays where the boulevards that join some of the parks together would be closed to car traffic and would be open instead to cyclists, pedestrians, etc. The City apparently likes the idea of having the streets be social places instead of just places for cars to speed through from point A to point B. Of course, a number of Chicago's otherwise fine parks have a design flaw in that they have fast-moving roads cutting through them, which can interfere with people just trying to enjoy the parks. I'm not going to go so far as to say that the City of Chicago was inspired by Critical Mass, but just that the City recognizes that changing the way that roads are used can enhance one's experience of the City.
In Chicago, it's amusing to watch the tourists watch Critical Mass go by. The tourists often get big goofy grins on their face and snap a lot of pictures. Of course, the ride often has a lot of eye-candy. A three-piece band pulled by bicycle. A roller-blader playing the trombone. Homemade bikes that are are as tall as buses. I wouldn't call it "advocacy"; I'd just call it "a happy hour with bikes instead of beers."
As a side-note, the City of Chicago is currently looking into a pilot program to have recurring Sundays where the boulevards that join some of the parks together would be closed to car traffic and would be open instead to cyclists, pedestrians, etc. The City apparently likes the idea of having the streets be social places instead of just places for cars to speed through from point A to point B. Of course, a number of Chicago's otherwise fine parks have a design flaw in that they have fast-moving roads cutting through them, which can interfere with people just trying to enjoy the parks. I'm not going to go so far as to say that the City of Chicago was inspired by Critical Mass, but just that the City recognizes that changing the way that roads are used can enhance one's experience of the City.
Paul L.
09-10-05, 12:58 AM
As a side-note, the City of Chicago is currently looking into a pilot program to have recurring Sundays where the boulevards that join some of the parks together would be closed to car traffic and would be open instead to cyclists, pedestrians, etc. The City apparently likes the idea of having the streets be social places instead of just places for cars to speed through from point A to point B. Of course, a number of Chicago's otherwise fine parks have a design flaw in that they have fast-moving roads cutting through them, which can interfere with people just trying to enjoy the parks. I'm not going to go so far as to say that the City of Chicago was inspired by Critical Mass, but just that the City recognizes that changing the way that roads are used can enhance one's experience of the City.
Guatemala city does this every Sunday. That was one thing they had that I really wish our city had. It was really cool to see people riding bikes up and down the avenue and having picnics and stuff. Almost like a big block party every Sunday where you could ride your bike and do lots of other stuff.
Guatemala city does this every Sunday. That was one thing they had that I really wish our city had. It was really cool to see people riding bikes up and down the avenue and having picnics and stuff. Almost like a big block party every Sunday where you could ride your bike and do lots of other stuff.
Paul L.
09-10-05, 01:03 AM
I hate these polls! If I say that I am "for" CM, then I must also vote, "it helps advocate bicycling rights". Those two statements do not necessarily belong together!
Well I worded it that way because I wanted to see opinions on it from an advocacy point of view. I suppose to some it is just another group ride.
Well I worded it that way because I wanted to see opinions on it from an advocacy point of view. I suppose to some it is just another group ride.
cyclezealot
09-10-05, 01:10 AM
I could not vote. You need a not decided either or neutral option..
TO me the jury is still out..Yes, I think they have some members who use unwise tactics..But, overall, once in awhile I think we need protect our bike rights with loud tactics..
And I think a lot of anti CM hype is just that, hype. I need find a chapter and find out for myself. If forced against the wall, I would probably reluctantly vote for.
As in the civil rights struggle, every great once in awhile it might be necessary to demand your rights.
TO me the jury is still out..Yes, I think they have some members who use unwise tactics..But, overall, once in awhile I think we need protect our bike rights with loud tactics..
And I think a lot of anti CM hype is just that, hype. I need find a chapter and find out for myself. If forced against the wall, I would probably reluctantly vote for.
As in the civil rights struggle, every great once in awhile it might be necessary to demand your rights.
red house
09-10-05, 01:19 AM
critical mass does nothing to advance the rights of cyclists...it is mostly all about pissing ppl off and eff-ing sh!t up..-there is however something to be said for that. There is a little street tout in all off us, a little anarchist and antichrist that resides in our innermost depths that demands satisfaction...shall we starve the beast? this is the question..
Gus Riley
09-10-05, 08:37 AM
You need a "I don't care one way or the other" choice in the poll.
Yep
Yep
cyclezealot
09-10-05, 09:11 AM
Why Do I have a somewhat miliitant attitude about motorists. Yesterday, I was a strict pedestarian crossing a very busy 4 lane road near a strip mall in Murrieta. Had the cross walk traffic light ok to cross...Right turn on red..During all the while it was flashing white, not one car yielded to my right to cross...Not even a 'California' stop...God, this habit infuriates me.
Ever try to make a lane change on a freeway in order to get to an exit ramp...Use your turn signals , you will not make it..Motorists are just *** holes..They see you wanting to exit..They will speed up to Nascar speeds just to deny you the opportunity to exit. With or w/o the turn signal on..Just to spite you..
No behavior of cyclists can ever be a arrogrant as those of motorists. Respect the rights of cyclists..The road is only for their useage...Not even pedestarians are safe to cross a crosswalk..Better hire a taxi to cross the forty feet.
But, nothing tops the habit of passing on double lines.
Critical massers can't be any more arrogrant than these motoring jerks.
Ever try to make a lane change on a freeway in order to get to an exit ramp...Use your turn signals , you will not make it..Motorists are just *** holes..They see you wanting to exit..They will speed up to Nascar speeds just to deny you the opportunity to exit. With or w/o the turn signal on..Just to spite you..
No behavior of cyclists can ever be a arrogrant as those of motorists. Respect the rights of cyclists..The road is only for their useage...Not even pedestarians are safe to cross a crosswalk..Better hire a taxi to cross the forty feet.
But, nothing tops the habit of passing on double lines.
Critical massers can't be any more arrogrant than these motoring jerks.
patc
09-10-05, 09:14 AM
Well I worded it that way because I wanted to see opinions on it from an advocacy point of view. I suppose to some it is just another group ride.
Sure, to some its "just a another group rise". To others it could be be about self-empowerment, to others about rebellion, to others a form of advocacy meant to reach out to *people* and not governments (and thus not directly about "rights"). To others....
Its fine to post a poll for a specific reason, but boxing people into too few answers leads to misleading results. Some of the voters will have agreed to one half the question but not both, others will avoid voting, and others may randomly pick the "least wrong" option.
Sorry to be a ***** about this, but if you are asking people to vote in your poll, I feel you need to at least take the time to make sure the answers will be meaningful.
Sure, to some its "just a another group rise". To others it could be be about self-empowerment, to others about rebellion, to others a form of advocacy meant to reach out to *people* and not governments (and thus not directly about "rights"). To others....
Its fine to post a poll for a specific reason, but boxing people into too few answers leads to misleading results. Some of the voters will have agreed to one half the question but not both, others will avoid voting, and others may randomly pick the "least wrong" option.
Sorry to be a ***** about this, but if you are asking people to vote in your poll, I feel you need to at least take the time to make sure the answers will be meaningful.
HiYoSilver
09-10-05, 10:15 AM
Had the cross walk traffic light ok to cross...Right turn on red..During all the while it was flashing white, not one car yielded to my right to cross...Not even a 'California' stop...God, this habit infuriates me.
A good slap on the side of the body helps with driver education. And making a visual point of writing down license numbers, or snapping picture with phone camera.
A good slap on the side of the body helps with driver education. And making a visual point of writing down license numbers, or snapping picture with phone camera.
barenakedbiker
09-10-05, 10:37 AM
In Chicago, it's amusing to watch the tourists watch Critical Mass go by. The tourists often get big goofy grins on their face and snap a lot of pictures. Of course, the ride often has a lot of eye-candy. A three-piece band pulled by bicycle. A roller-blader playing the trombone. Homemade bikes that are are as tall as buses. I wouldn't call it "advocacy"; I'd just call it "a happy hour with bikes instead of beers."
This is the way CM is supposed to be! It's good for tourism. It's good fun. And, the police should quit with the harassment already.
P.S. Where are the nekkid ladies?
This is the way CM is supposed to be! It's good for tourism. It's good fun. And, the police should quit with the harassment already.
P.S. Where are the nekkid ladies?
cyclezealot
09-10-05, 11:30 AM
A good slap on the side of the body helps with driver education. And making a visual point of writing down license numbers, or snapping picture with phone camera.
I post this RANT almost daily..Think it a lie, almost: BUT, it happens daily ! .either as a cyclist of pedestarian.. they just have no respect for other's needs..It causes some kind of mental anguish should they have to let up on the gas pedal.
Seems the really fast cars,often have sun roofs and are painted red..Think my favorite retribution for their misdeeds would be to pour poweraide on their heads- if you can possibly catch them at a red light.
I post this RANT almost daily..Think it a lie, almost: BUT, it happens daily ! .either as a cyclist of pedestarian.. they just have no respect for other's needs..It causes some kind of mental anguish should they have to let up on the gas pedal.
Seems the really fast cars,often have sun roofs and are painted red..Think my favorite retribution for their misdeeds would be to pour poweraide on their heads- if you can possibly catch them at a red light.
ngateguy
09-10-05, 12:06 PM
In the nearly 20 years they have had Critical Mass in Seattle. I cannot think of one positive thing they have done for my cycling rights or cycling advocacy. You would better spend you time with a local bike club and/or cycling advocacy group. They actually accomplish something beyond ticking of the general population.
barenakedbiker
09-10-05, 12:12 PM
In the nearly 20 years they have had Critical Mass in Seattle. I cannot think of one positive thing they have done for my cycling rights or cycling advocacy. You would better spend you time with a local bike club and/or cycling advocacy group. They actually accomplish something beyond ticking of the general population.
Maybe you expect too much from CM. Keep those pictures of nekkid women on bikes coming outta Seattle and Vancouver!
Maybe you expect too much from CM. Keep those pictures of nekkid women on bikes coming outta Seattle and Vancouver!
ngateguy
09-10-05, 12:26 PM
Maybe you expect too much from CM.
When they tell me they are there for my rights then thats exactly what I expect from them. I don't see it happening.
Keep those pictures of nekkid women on bikes coming outta Seattle and Vancouver!
Be happy to most of the time they start their ride from the park across the street from my work :D
When they tell me they are there for my rights then thats exactly what I expect from them. I don't see it happening.
Keep those pictures of nekkid women on bikes coming outta Seattle and Vancouver!
Be happy to most of the time they start their ride from the park across the street from my work :D
JRA
09-10-05, 12:31 PM
I'm very much against CM but I can understand those who say they're for it but don't think it helps advocate bicycling rights.
If someone is for CM as a big party for cyclists, I can understand that. If someone is for CM because they hate cars, I can understand that. If someone is for CM because they're would-be revolutionaries and like stirring up crap, I can understand that. If someone thinks the police have over-reacted to CM and have violated the civil rights of some individuals, I can understand that (I agree with that, actually, but it has nothing to do with cycling advocacy; it's one of the big lies of CM (CM has many lies), that it does).
What I cannot fathom is anybody who thinks CM has anything to do with cycling advocacy. I cannot fathom anybody who thinks CM has ever done anything to further the cause of bicyclists. All CM has ever done is get people pissed at bicyclsts (and I can't say I blame people for being pissed at bicyclists, considering the behavior of some CMers).
CM is cycling anti-advocacy; CM is cyclists shooting themselves in the foot. CM is an an attack on responsible bicyclists everywhere. Bicyclists would be better off if CM did not exist.
If someone is for CM as a big party for cyclists, I can understand that. If someone is for CM because they hate cars, I can understand that. If someone is for CM because they're would-be revolutionaries and like stirring up crap, I can understand that. If someone thinks the police have over-reacted to CM and have violated the civil rights of some individuals, I can understand that (I agree with that, actually, but it has nothing to do with cycling advocacy; it's one of the big lies of CM (CM has many lies), that it does).
What I cannot fathom is anybody who thinks CM has anything to do with cycling advocacy. I cannot fathom anybody who thinks CM has ever done anything to further the cause of bicyclists. All CM has ever done is get people pissed at bicyclsts (and I can't say I blame people for being pissed at bicyclists, considering the behavior of some CMers).
CM is cycling anti-advocacy; CM is cyclists shooting themselves in the foot. CM is an an attack on responsible bicyclists everywhere. Bicyclists would be better off if CM did not exist.
sabretech2001
09-10-05, 03:23 PM
A so far not cited dynamic here is age: I keep reading stuff that invariably translates out to people acting out the last vestiges of Rebellious Teenager Syndrome. Does traffic and/or the drivers here in NYC suck? Yes, of course they do. Clogging up the streets once a month to return the "Eff You!" is not the answer.
Does the NYPD get heavy-handed sometimes. Yes, I'm sure they do. But all you cm advocates keep leaving out the other side: You guys keep showing up to renew the confrontation. You deviate from the route, so that the Officers who were originally assigned to escort you end up ticketing you for Disorderly Conduct and Obstructing Government Administration.
The charges leveled are significant: if the NYPD saw CM as traffic, the offenses cited would be Failure to Stop, and other traffic violations. That they cite CM'ers for DisCon and OGA means that they have no problem seeing CM for what it is, which is a kind of mob that disrupts the normal flow of traffic.
Again: The NYPD acts on orders from 1 Police Plaza, who gets their instructions from the Mayor. He's the one who's convinced that CM is bad. How did he get that impression? All the drivers that CM has p!ssed off over time have called him to complain. And let's not forget that people who can afford to run an automobile in NYC can also afford to make political contributions.
We have a Mayoral Race going on right now. Spend your time courting the candidates and letting them know why they should care, contribute to the legal fight going on now against the Bloomberg Administration, and for G-d's Sake, please remember that you are adults and please comport yourselves that way!
Does the NYPD get heavy-handed sometimes. Yes, I'm sure they do. But all you cm advocates keep leaving out the other side: You guys keep showing up to renew the confrontation. You deviate from the route, so that the Officers who were originally assigned to escort you end up ticketing you for Disorderly Conduct and Obstructing Government Administration.
The charges leveled are significant: if the NYPD saw CM as traffic, the offenses cited would be Failure to Stop, and other traffic violations. That they cite CM'ers for DisCon and OGA means that they have no problem seeing CM for what it is, which is a kind of mob that disrupts the normal flow of traffic.
Again: The NYPD acts on orders from 1 Police Plaza, who gets their instructions from the Mayor. He's the one who's convinced that CM is bad. How did he get that impression? All the drivers that CM has p!ssed off over time have called him to complain. And let's not forget that people who can afford to run an automobile in NYC can also afford to make political contributions.
We have a Mayoral Race going on right now. Spend your time courting the candidates and letting them know why they should care, contribute to the legal fight going on now against the Bloomberg Administration, and for G-d's Sake, please remember that you are adults and please comport yourselves that way!
Paul L.
09-10-05, 05:18 PM
Sure, to some its "just a another group rise". To others it could be be about self-empowerment, to others about rebellion, to others a form of advocacy meant to reach out to *people* and not governments (and thus not directly about "rights"). To others....
Its fine to post a poll for a specific reason, but boxing people into too few answers leads to misleading results. Some of the voters will have agreed to one half the question but not both, others will avoid voting, and others may randomly pick the "least wrong" option.
Sorry to be a ***** about this, but if you are asking people to vote in your poll, I feel you need to at least take the time to make sure the answers will be meaningful.
Well, unfortunately I am not a professional Pollster. Just thought I would put a poll up to see what the results would be for a simple question, but I guess polls are only for people who can anticipate the questions everyone wants to answer.
Its fine to post a poll for a specific reason, but boxing people into too few answers leads to misleading results. Some of the voters will have agreed to one half the question but not both, others will avoid voting, and others may randomly pick the "least wrong" option.
Sorry to be a ***** about this, but if you are asking people to vote in your poll, I feel you need to at least take the time to make sure the answers will be meaningful.
Well, unfortunately I am not a professional Pollster. Just thought I would put a poll up to see what the results would be for a simple question, but I guess polls are only for people who can anticipate the questions everyone wants to answer.
ngateguy
09-10-05, 05:35 PM
For or against to me that looks like a specific reason, but what di I now I am not a pollster either.
cyclezealot
09-10-05, 06:36 PM
I say the US media responds to groups they do not like with a vengence,often unfounded..I do not trust the media to carry out an honest story.
My questions to those vehemently against CM..Are your opinions from your own sources or are you getting wrapped up in stereotypes...If your opinions are from your own personal connectios with CMers, then I would be interested in them..
If not..I will wait to form my own opinion should I ever meet a CMer..Until I ever meet a CM member, I will be open minded.
My questions to those vehemently against CM..Are your opinions from your own sources or are you getting wrapped up in stereotypes...If your opinions are from your own personal connectios with CMers, then I would be interested in them..
If not..I will wait to form my own opinion should I ever meet a CMer..Until I ever meet a CM member, I will be open minded.
ngateguy
09-10-05, 06:49 PM
I have witnessed the antics of CM here in Seattle. Was even present at the first couple here because I was lead to believe that it was a rally about cycling rights. Turns out it was just a bunch on youngsters set on disturbing traffic.
patc
09-10-05, 09:03 PM
Well, unfortunately I am not a professional Pollster. Just thought I would put a poll up to see what the results would be for a simple question, but I guess polls are only for people who can anticipate the questions everyone wants to answer.
It wasn't meant personally.
It wasn't meant personally.
james_swift
09-10-05, 10:04 PM
I say that the next time Critical Arse disrupts traffic, the cops should confiscate their bikes, melt them down and use the not-so-critical-anymore mass of molten metal to create an environment-friendly all-aluminum SUV.
C'mon, guys, it's a joke. Lighten up. :D
C'mon, guys, it's a joke. Lighten up. :D
barenakedbiker
09-11-05, 11:59 AM
C'mon, guys, it's a joke. Lighten up. :D
Ha ha...good joke! Post your jokes on here: http://bicycledefensefund.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=47062b22d82000f32d2380b1513c167e
No doubt everyone on there could really use a good laugh. Ha ha!
Ha ha...good joke! Post your jokes on here: http://bicycledefensefund.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=47062b22d82000f32d2380b1513c167e
No doubt everyone on there could really use a good laugh. Ha ha!
Jym Dyer
09-11-05, 12:06 PM
=v= You guys need to get some new material. The "only p1sses off motorists" and "rebellious teenager" canards are themselves old enough to be (non-rebellious) teenagers. Try experiencing some real-life first-hand unmediated reality for a change and go on your local ride and see what it's actually like:
http://www.critical-mass.org/
http://www.critical-mass.org/
ngateguy
09-11-05, 08:18 PM
=v= You guys need to get some new material. The "only p1sses off motorists" and "rebellious teenager" canards are themselves old enough to be (non-rebellious) teenagers. Try experiencing some real-life first-hand unmediated reality for a change and go on your local ride and see what it's actually like:
http://www.critical-mass.org/
No thank you I have
I have witnessed the antics of CM here in Seattle. Was even present at the first couple here because I was lead to believe that it was a rally about cycling rights. Turns out it was just a bunch on youngsters set on disturbing traffic.
http://www.critical-mass.org/
No thank you I have
I have witnessed the antics of CM here in Seattle. Was even present at the first couple here because I was lead to believe that it was a rally about cycling rights. Turns out it was just a bunch on youngsters set on disturbing traffic.
TexasGuy
09-12-05, 08:16 AM
If critical mass is what I think it is, does an annoying person being more annoying and obnoxious help to make friends?
barenakedbiker
09-12-05, 10:51 AM
If critical mass is what I think it is, does an annoying person being more annoying and obnoxious help to make friends?
Since when is being annoying against the law? If you pick your nose or spit in public, should the police arrest you?
Since when is being annoying against the law? If you pick your nose or spit in public, should the police arrest you?
Brian Ratliff
09-12-05, 12:46 PM
I vote that it does do some good. Being a responsible citizen holds the line, but shouting moves it. Every time a CM gets disrupted by the police, the point is made that the road as it is set up is meant for cars and cars only. Bikes are an afterthought. Bikes will remain an afterthought until we demonstrate what happens when bikes overload their nearly non-existant facilities.
The way I see it, riding as I do normally, which is to say, vehicularly and defensively, is a tactic to simply survive in an environment that is relatively hostile to bicycles. When cyclists band together in a demonstration like CM, it takes the streets for cyclists and shows drivers what it is like on the other side of the coin, where the environment is hostile to cars.
CM is not a group out to "make nice" with the car folk. It is out to force a split in opinion. Once people take one side or the other, then the battle is on the agenda, and perhaps there can be a win, either in court or in the legislature. This is the way of all protests.
For those people here who think CM'ers are a loud, abnoxious group that does no good, consider this. If CM was not around to make a racket and force the split in opinion, then how would the League of American Bicyclists get anyone to listen to them. For the statis quo to change, someone has to take it too far in order for more reasonable people to step in the gaps and move the statis quo just a little. You don't have to join CM, you don't have to like the characters who take part, you can disagree with their tactics, but respect their role as the extremists who help the rest of us obtain the incremental gains we want.
PS, the most recent example of this in national politics: the surge in the advocacy of gay marriage. Yea, the gay marriage advocates got shot down, but civil union laws are not now seen as extreme and have a good chance of being implemented in several states in the relatively near future.
The way I see it, riding as I do normally, which is to say, vehicularly and defensively, is a tactic to simply survive in an environment that is relatively hostile to bicycles. When cyclists band together in a demonstration like CM, it takes the streets for cyclists and shows drivers what it is like on the other side of the coin, where the environment is hostile to cars.
CM is not a group out to "make nice" with the car folk. It is out to force a split in opinion. Once people take one side or the other, then the battle is on the agenda, and perhaps there can be a win, either in court or in the legislature. This is the way of all protests.
For those people here who think CM'ers are a loud, abnoxious group that does no good, consider this. If CM was not around to make a racket and force the split in opinion, then how would the League of American Bicyclists get anyone to listen to them. For the statis quo to change, someone has to take it too far in order for more reasonable people to step in the gaps and move the statis quo just a little. You don't have to join CM, you don't have to like the characters who take part, you can disagree with their tactics, but respect their role as the extremists who help the rest of us obtain the incremental gains we want.
PS, the most recent example of this in national politics: the surge in the advocacy of gay marriage. Yea, the gay marriage advocates got shot down, but civil union laws are not now seen as extreme and have a good chance of being implemented in several states in the relatively near future.
barenakedbiker
09-12-05, 01:47 PM
You don't have to join CM, you don't have to like the characters who take part, you can disagree with their tactics, but respect their role as the extremists who help the rest of us obtain the incremental gains we want.
.
There ya go!
.
There ya go!
chemcycle
09-12-05, 05:27 PM
but respect their role as the extremists
;)
;)
Daily Commute
09-12-05, 05:39 PM
How can you be for or against something that stands for nothing and everything at the same time?
james_swift
09-12-05, 05:53 PM
...extremists...
;)
;)
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