Advocacy & Safety - Invisible Cycleist Syndrome

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View Full Version : Invisible Cycleist Syndrome


bubber
09-09-05, 03:29 PM
I have had a number of experiences lately that go something like this: I am riding down a street and a car comes up to a stop sign on a cross street intersection (daylight, good visibility). The car waits until I am almost in the intersection and then pulls out right in front of me (I don't have a stop sign in my direction). An emergency braking procedure has been the only thing preventing me from slamming into the cars or being hit by them.

Well, it happened again yesterday. Really pissed, I chased the driver to his house. The high-speed chase had a strong calming effect on me. I stayed at the end of the driveway, took off my helmet, and motioned for the driver to come over. When he did I introduced myself and we shook hands. I then asked if he saw me when he nearly ran me over at the intersection. He said he had no idea what I was talking about (i.e., he did not see me) but apologized for the incident anyway. I believed him.

Most of these incidents take place at intersections and I now believe that there is no malice involved -- the drivers (young and old) just don't see me, or rather, I just don't register in their consciousness. Have there been any studies of the physiology of this phenomenon? How does a cyclist go about increasing the chances of being seen? (I already wear a hi-viz green-yellow jersey)

As a side thought, if I had done the logical thing and beat the snot out of the guy, a great misunderstanding would have been created because he had no idea why I was so perturbed. This makes me think we should assume not automatically assume drivers to be malicious in such situations.


webist
09-09-05, 03:54 PM
I assume they are coming out unless they react somehow to my wave or nod.

Keith99
09-09-05, 04:00 PM
I don't recall this happening to me on the bike, but there are times I slow more than usual because I sense it coming. But don't think it is only a bike thing. It has happened to me several times in my SUV (Explorer sport, not a land yacht, but big enough in back for my bike or 200 lbs of dogs) at one intersection a block from home. A couple of times they even waited until I was almost in the intersection to start going.


Helmet Head
09-09-05, 04:14 PM
The problem isn't that you're invisible; the problem is that they are not looking where you are riding.

The solution is for you to ride where they are looking.

Any time I am crossing an intersection, I make sure I am riding in the middle of the rightmost through lane. It's habit now. I would feel unsafe doing anything else. I do this on all roads, including roads with bike lanes. As I approach the intersection, I look back over my left shoulder (it takes a little practice to learn to do this without veering left - practice in an empty parking lot with lines you can follow). If it's not clear I use a left hand signal. As soon as it is safe, I move left until I am in the middle of the through lane. I don't move right again until I'm at least half-way across the intersection, and even then I only move right if there is faster traffic behind me.

Before I started positioning myself according to destination at intersections, I would have people cutting me off all too often. Once I started moving left, it happened less often. Once it became an ingrained habit such that I did it at every intersection, the morons who couldn't see me disappeared altogether.

If this sounds new or strange to you, check out the links in my signature.

sbhikes
09-09-05, 04:16 PM
I think you touched on the key: you don't register in their consciousness.

When I see a driver who might do something like you describe I try to make eye contact. I wave at them with a small gesture as if I know them. Not a big flapping hi howareya wave, just little wave and nod. That makes them stop and try to figure out if they know me. Seems to work pretty well.

genec
09-09-05, 04:26 PM
I think it comes from "mental filtering." While riding where you are visible and wearing highly visible clothing is important, motorists are not looking for you. You don't fit the "danger filter" they are using.

Humans are great at spotting patterns, and we use this type of thinking all the time. The motorist that didn't see you, was not looking for you as they were just scanning for things that fit their "vehicle model."

No large boxy thing coming at them at vehicle speed, so therefore it must be OK to go.

This is especially bad for right turn on red type intersections, where motorists are just doing quick scans while their vehicle is still actually moving. I assume I am invisible at those locations and either wait for the motorist or yell at them. The yelling only works if the window is down.

Of course a horn would work too.

No I don't assume I am invisible all the time... but in situtations like merging traffic, and right on red, and some left turns... I am Casper.

Looking for eye contact is also a bit overated as someone can look right through you at traffic behind you and appear to be looking right at you... This is especially true where side streets meet busier streets. Motorists looking way down the street can appear to be looking right at you.

You must make sure you actually have their attention, that their head turns with your movement, that they acknowledge you in some way (nod... etc) or you catch their attention... yell, honk...

bubber
09-09-05, 04:33 PM
As a clarification, in all instances I was "taking the lane" and was where a car would have been.

Helmet Head
09-09-05, 04:43 PM
Everything Gene said sounds reasonable, but I find it mostly untrue or unnecessary.

I find that even on days where I'm not wearing bright clothes, motorists waiting to turn right will see me if I'm riding where they are looking, period. The theory that they are looking for a box and I'm not a box, is interesting, but it just doesn't pan out in my experience, because they do see me. Now, I might wave, stand up, weave around, buy a horn, etc., if they ever did not do something that indicated they see me, but that just never happens.

Here's one recent example:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=torrey+pines+road+%26+prospect+place,+92037&ll=32.847217,-117.267423&spn=0.005386,0.009510&t=h&hl=en

The other moring I was traveling north-east on Torrey Pines Road, down the hill after going through the signalled intersection at Prospect Place.

There is a bike lane, but I was in the middle of the right lane because there was no traffic behind me at the time. When I was about 1/4 of the way to the intersection with Torrey Lane (not light or stop for me, they have a stop), I noticed traffic behind me starting to come through the intersection at Prospect, but they were not close yet; I held my position and continued, probably about 25 mph (it is downhill).

At some point where I was getting pretty close to the Torrey Lane intersection I noticed the traffic behind me was almost close enough for it to be time to move aside into the bike lane to let them pass, but I also noticed at that point a pickup truck had just stopped at Torrey Lane, obviously about to turn right. I can virtually guarantee that had I been in the bike lane he would have pulled out right in front of me (there was still enough of a gap to the car traffic approaching), and I would have had to brake hard to avoid hitting him. As it was, with my bold positioning out in the middle of the lane, he couldn't help but see me, and waited. As soon as I passed him I moved into the bike lane and the cars behind me passed me soon thereafter.

That's just one example, but I hope it helps illustrate the importance of lane position to avoid being cut-off like this.

Helmet Head
09-09-05, 04:45 PM
As a clarification, in all instances I was "taking the lane" and was where a car would have been.
Wow. Then, frankly, I can't explain why I never had this problem, and you do.

Keith99
09-09-05, 04:48 PM
I think this is the problem:

The car waits until I am almost in the intersection and then pulls out right in front of me (I don't have a stop sign in my direction).

That is the same situation at the intersection near home where I have had it happen several times while driving. The driver ASSUMES there is a 4 way stop and assumes you will stop for the stop sign (that you do not have). Either in a car or on a bike you are screwed no matter what you do, but if you slow first at least you have a better chance to avoid an accident.

nova
09-09-05, 04:58 PM
For me its not being invisable thats the problem. I get road hogging motorists here who seem to think its not only their right but their duty to harras bike riders. Im going to get me a heap disposable camera and start taking pics and get thier plates and post them online and potentialy turn them over to the cops. I got one guy here who loves to pull along side then speed off after he gets realy close to me say foot or less. Im going to get him on camera then file assult charges.

Roody
09-09-05, 05:10 PM
I usually have the opposite problem. I have a stop sign, the driver does not, but stops for me anyway. I either go ahead or get involved in one of those pointless arguments about who is more polite. I think the reason for this is that so many cyclists blow through stop signs that some cagers just assume this is what will happen. (I admit that I blow through most stop signs, but never when traffic is present.)

John Ridley
09-09-05, 05:20 PM
I usually have no problem, but today I had an interesting one. There's a side street that is near an expressway onramp, with a gas station a few hundred feet down that street. Eastbound onramp is across from and 50 feet or so to the left from the point of view of people stopped at that stop sign.

Today I was approaching that intersection, stopped traffic ahead of me and to the left, expressway onramp to the right. No other traffic was on my street, and I had no stop sign. A large pickup towing a large 5th wheel camper pulled up to the stop sign, and sat there for a good 30 seconds as I approached the intersection. He waited until I was almost to the intersection, then pulled out heading in my direction. I moved to the shoulder, and kept alongside his passenger window as he drove the few feet to the onramp, then he had to stop, blocking both lanes with his long trailer, for me to pass on his right, so he could turn into the onramp. While he was sitting there, a gravel truck came over the overpass and had to stop quickly to not take out his trailer.

Why he sat there for 30 seconds waiting for me to get to the intersection, I have no idea.

tippy
09-09-05, 05:39 PM
I had another cyclist coming in the opposite direction make a left turn in front of me. I made a big swerve and yelled "hey". He replied ... "Sorry .. I didn't see you.". Cool! I was invisible!

d.tipton

sbhikes
09-09-05, 06:08 PM
Everything Gene said sounds reasonable, but I find it mostly untrue or unnecessary.

I find that even on days where I'm not wearing bright clothes, motorists waiting to turn right will see me if I'm riding where they are looking, period. The theory that they are looking for a box and I'm not a box, is interesting, but it just doesn't pan out in my experience, because they do see me. Now, I might wave, stand up, weave around, buy a horn, etc., if they ever did not do something that indicated they see me, but that just never happens.

Another example of Serge living in a special Serge world. I get the glazed eyes looking at me and not seeing me all the time. If I wave like I know the person the glazed veil falls and I see them acknowledge my presence. I do it all the time, especially when I'm just going along and a car suddenly appears on my right ready to pull out of a shopping center, off ramp or side street.

Moonshot
09-09-05, 06:29 PM
FWIW, I had an interesting experience riding an upright english 3 speed to work one day.

I cannot recall having a car pull directly in front of me at an intersection causing me to have to brake to avoid hitting the car while riding my road bike and wearing my helmet. This particular day I rode my wife's 3 speed upright english bike and forgot my helmet. I should have gone back for it, but I didn't.

While on the english 3 speed w/o a helmet I had two cars at different times pull directly in front of me. At least on one occasion the driver seemed to wait until I was nearly in their path before they roared in front of me. I was not hugging the shoulder. I was in the middle of the lane each time.

I guess I'd need to ride the english 3 speed for a week or two and observe whether I continue to be road bait, but I just don't have the patience to do that.

Draw your own conclusions if any from this.

Moonshot
09-09-05, 06:37 PM
Another example of Serge living in a special Serge world. I get the glazed eyes looking at me and not seeing me all the time. If I wave like I know the person the glazed veil falls and I see them acknowledge my presence. I do it all the time, especially when I'm just going along and a car suddenly appears on my right ready to pull out of a shopping center, off ramp or side street.

Excellent idea, Diane.

A smart cyclist plays mind games with cars. Sometimes, if I'm out in the country by myself and away from anything and I hear a car or truck approaching from the rear I may look to my right like I see someone in the field. Hopefully, if the driver had malice in mind they'll think twice if someone is out in the field watching me. Paranoid? Maybe. Being hit twice from the rear by cars can have such an effect on you.

p8rider
09-09-05, 07:05 PM
Not being seen is a common thing and not just on bicycles. Years ago back in my motorcycle days I would be cut off all of the time by cars. I was riding a big bike at the time, (Honda 750/4) with the headlamp on and still cars would not see me. It has made me very carefull on my bicycle!

kb0tnv
09-09-05, 09:47 PM
I tried my Air Horn but the guy in the truck still proceded to backup onto the road. I ended up hitting the breaks. They guy backed all the way out and I stayed where I was. I asked him if he heard my horn and he said, "no" and then "I'm sorry". I just told him "no biggie" and we parted ways. I wanted to tell him that he should pay more attention to cyclists...however I didn't think it was necessary since there are a whole new load of "Share the Road" type signs with Bikes painted on them. I have found most motorists when confronted to be "okay" they don't get mad or angry at me.. Just be prepared for the worst and don't assume they see or hear you.

Keep Cycling,

Jeff

chocula
09-10-05, 06:38 AM
I think it comes from "mental filtering." While riding where you are visible and wearing highly visible clothing is important, motorists are not looking for you. You don't fit the "danger filter" they are using.

There's a phenomenon known as "change blindness." In very simple terms, I think it suggests that people narrowly focused on looking for a particular object (cars) may fail to see other objects (bicycles). In one experiment, people instructed to concentrate on the movements of basketball players failed to notice a person in a gorilla suit walking across the court. You can read more about change blindness in this interesting article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fconnected%2F2004%2F05%2F05%2Fecfgorilla05.xml&pos=portal_puff1&_requestid=347199).

The scenario Bubber mentioned in the original posts seems to happen to me a lot, too (except for the high speed chase part).

va_cyclist
09-10-05, 07:42 AM
Sometimes if I see this situation developing I'll raise a hand and point at the driver, as if to say, "don't do it." This seems to work about as well as the wave, because either they get what I'm saying, or they wonder what I'm pointing at. Either way they notice. I haven't had anyone misinterpret this as a "you go first" signal yet, but I suppose that could happen too.

lilHinault
09-10-05, 08:11 AM
As a side thought, if I had done the logical thing and beat the snot out of the guy, a great misunderstanding would have been created because he had no idea why I was so perturbed.

Cars are designed to isolate people from their environment, this property is extolled in car ads in case you've never paid close attention to the things. SUV drivers routinely hit people and drag them for hundreds of feet completely unaware that they're doing so. They hit their own kids all the time just backing out of their driveways for goodness' sake!

This is what you get when you have a whole society based on me-first and "coccooning". Car that muffles the outside world, bigscreen TV at home so you don't have to go to the movie theatre and have to interact with other people, etc.

Car drivers will typically notice what's dangerous to them - when I rode motorcycles a good trick was to wear a helmet that looked like a cop's helmet and put a white fairing on your bike. On a bicycle it's hard to look dangerous to cars, though.

Helmet Head
09-10-05, 11:12 AM
A smart cyclist plays mind games with cars.
I must not be a smart cyclist.
I do play mind games with car drivers.

dynaryder
09-11-05, 05:19 PM
I think it comes from "mental filtering." While riding where you are visible and wearing highly visible clothing is important, motorists are not looking for you. You don't fit the "danger filter" they are using. Looking for eye contact is also a bit overated as someone can look right through you at traffic behind you and appear to be looking right at you... This is especially true where side streets meet busier streets. Motorists looking way down the street can appear to be looking right at you.


Not being seen is a common thing and not just on bicycles. Years ago back in my motorcycle days I would be cut off all of the time by cars. I was riding a big bike at the time, (Honda 750/4) with the headlamp on and still cars would not see me. It has made me very carefull on my bicycle!

I've dealt with this for 20 yrs on my motorcycles. Not only am I larger and noisier than a bicycle,with a much larger headlight,but my full-face helmet is BRIGHT orange. Like AlertShirt orange. But I've had people look at me,make actual eye contact,and then pull. Car drivers just don't worry about things they don't think can hurt them.

dynaryder
09-11-05, 05:29 PM
Another example of Serge living in a special Serge world.

Agreed. Hey HH,just curious;if the OP is having these probs because he's not riding VC,then how do you explain my same experiences for the past 20 years on a motorcycle? Trust me,I ride my motorcycles vehicularly. I have a large front headlight(that I couldn't turn off if I wanted to) plus amber front running lights,I'm traveling at vehicular speeds,I've got a nice bright helmet with reflective material,and I'm following the rules(except perhaps the speed limit ;) ),but I get pulled out on all the time.

So what am I doing wrong on my motorcycle? Maybe after you find someone to teach me to cycle VC,you can get me someone to teach me to ride my Harley? :p

To everyone else out there:if you're on/in anything smaller than a car,you're invisible. Expect the worst and don't think they'll see you. I've been riding for 2 decades like this and have yet to have a physical exchange with a car.

cheebahmunkey
09-11-05, 05:49 PM
I experienced this for the first time today. I was riding on a two-lane, two-way street and this truck was coming towards me. I was just pedaling at a normal pace when he starts to slow down and starts to make a left turn. The problem was I was directly in front of the entrance to the drive-way he was turning into. The truck was literally a few inches from my leg. If I had stopped, he would've hit me. I made a quick decision to speed up and try and get by the drive-way. He had his window down and I looked right at him as I pedalled past. I said, "Please watch next time (somewhat out of breath and obviously stressed after almost being hit)." Hope he got the message to watch where the **** he's going next time.

Roody
09-11-05, 06:24 PM
Agreed. Hey HH,just curious;if the OP is having these probs because he's not riding VC,then how do you explain my same experiences for the past 20 years on a motorcycle? Trust me,I ride my motorcycles vehicularly. I have a large front headlight(that I couldn't turn off if I wanted to) plus amber front running lights,I'm traveling at vehicular speeds,I've got a nice bright helmet with reflective material,and I'm following the rules(except perhaps the speed limit ;) ),but I get pulled out on all the time.

So what am I doing wrong on my motorcycle? Maybe after you find someone to teach me to cycle VC,you can get me someone to teach me to ride my Harley? :p

To everyone else out there:if you're on/in anything smaller than a car,you're invisible. Expect the worst and don't think they'll see you. I've been riding for 2 decades like this and have yet to have a physical exchange with a car.You admit that you speed, my bet is that you drive like a maniac half the time. Would your rapid approach sometimes mean that motorists had considerably less time to perceive and react to your presence?

(And don't expect a kind and amused reaction when you come on a bicycle safety forum and admit to speeding. :( )

If you feel "invisible" and you always "expect the worst," I really question why you would ever get on either kind if bike. Do you have poor judgment or were you exaggerating the risk you feel when you are riding?

sbhikes
09-11-05, 07:13 PM
Heck, I even have experienced this invisibility while driving a car. I just don't trust anybody anymore.

It might not always be invisibility when driving, though. I experienced the most times of being pulled out in front of or right hook-like events when I used to have an old 1978 VW bus.

Keith99
09-12-05, 09:31 AM
Something clicked into place when Motorcycles got mentioned.

I am now 52. When I ride it is on a nice road bike and with a team/club jersey. I have really do not have much in the way of problems being 'invisible'. Generally I ride in middle class areas, and I look like part of the middle class. Come to think of it the only ride I have been on where there were multiple driver problems was one that went into a more working class area and still I was not invisible, just honked at by drivers in trashy cars.


Now rewind to when I was between 16 and 18. My family had a Honda 90 'dirt' motorcycle. It was not a dirt bike in the sense of huge shocks, so not for flying over jumps and the like, but it was a lot of fun to take on the fire roads, which I did. It as only about a mile from my folks house to where the fire roads started. Only 3 blocks of it on major roads. Only one major crosses major intersection.

I eventually gave up riding for a while because those 3 blocks were just too dangerous. I was invisible! Of course I was a kid in blue jeans and t-shirt, not an adult in 'expensive' leathers. After a couple of weeks I realized I was a big strong kid and could throw the bike into the back of my sisters truck and drive to the trailhead, which I did.

Just for what it is worth. I think there are enough drivers out there who ignore those they do not think of as 'important'.

genec
09-12-05, 10:43 AM
I've dealt with this for 20 yrs on my motorcycles. Not only am I larger and noisier than a bicycle,with a much larger headlight,but my full-face helmet is BRIGHT orange. Like AlertShirt orange. But I've had people look at me,make actual eye contact,and then pull. Car drivers just don't worry about things they don't think can hurt them.

I had a demonstration of that just Sunday... as I approached the driveway of a local marketplace dressed in my bright orange kit... a motorist obviously saw me, and decided to take his chances (or my chance actually). Rather then wait briefly at the driveway before entering the street, this dunderhead charged out, and in doing so bottomed out his car and nearly lost control. Yup, in order to save himself scant seconds, he chose to nearly wreck his car. He then was stopped by a red light... I took the opportunity to discuss the situation with him. :D

Helmet Head
09-12-05, 01:33 PM
Hey HH,just curious;if the OP is having these probs because he's not riding VC,then how do you explain my same experiences for the past 20 years on a motorcycle?
Roody and Keith99 already answered this, and I agree with what they said.

There is no doubt that cyclists and motorcyclists have a visibility issue compared to cars. But how likely a motorcyclist or cyclist will be seen by a right-turner (or left-turner from oncoming traffic, for that matter) can vary based on the cyclist's behavior... in particular where he chooses to ride, clothing colors, etc.

But all other factors held more-or-less equal between a motorcyclist and a cyclist, the motorcyclist is more likely to not be seen because of his faster speed.

timmhaan
09-12-05, 01:47 PM
a lot of drivers move their car forward to see better, even if they don't intend to pull out all the way. it's one of those things that's scary as hell for a cyclist because you can't tell what they're doing.

Da Tinker
09-12-05, 02:09 PM
There is no one answer. Some drivers are evil, some are semi-conscious, some simply are not expecting a cyclists and are not looking for one.

A very good demo of the change blindness effect can be found here:
http://www.usd.edu/psyc301/ChangeBlindness.htm

gpljr75
09-12-05, 02:13 PM
One of the first things you learn if you ever ride a motorcycle is to ALWAYS, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES assume you ARE invisible. I always assume the person has not seen me. I'm always probing for unmistakeable eye-contact when I'm about to cross trajectories with any motorist (moving or stopped). It's part of the deal; we've chosen to move around in a less visible way and we need to ride defensively (and charitably, I would argue) around non-malicious motorists.

genec
09-12-05, 02:30 PM
There is no one answer. Some drivers are evil, some are semi-conscious, some simply are not expecting a cyclists and are not looking for one.

A very good demo of the change blindness effect can be found here:
http://www.usd.edu/psyc301/ChangeBlindness.htm

Interesting... close to the effect of what really occurs... now if they had an image with a cyclist being flashed on and off on a street...

Helmet Head
09-12-05, 04:15 PM
One of the first things you learn if you ever ride a motorcycle is to ALWAYS, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES assume you ARE invisible.
That's one of the worst (and most common) pieces of advice I've ever heard.

Choosing lane position to be predictable and visible is often directly opposite of what would be the logical lane position to use if you were invisible.

The last thing a motorcyclist or cyclist needs is a logical conflict raging in his mind... right if invisible, left to be more visible.

gpljr75
09-12-05, 10:02 PM
That's one of the worst (and most common) pieces of advice I've ever heard.

Choosing lane position to be predictable and visible is often directly opposite of what would be the logical lane position to use if you were invisible.

The last thing a motorcyclist or cyclist needs is a logical conflict raging in his mind... right if invisible, left to be more visible.

Um, the advice speaks to a defensive, alert mindset, not an attempt to be invisible through your actions. (?!)

Sure, do everything reasonable and legal to be visible. But I would submit that if you then say to yourself, "Well, I've done all that should be reasonably expected of me, therefore that driver sees me" you've got greater logical problems than if you think "I've done all that should be reasonably expected of me, and yet there's still a good chance that driver doesn't see me."

Helmet Head
09-12-05, 10:18 PM
The point is to get another person to see you. What point is there in doing that if you're assuming you're invisible?

Assuming you're invisible is very different from NOT assuming you are visible.

I would never assume anyone sees me, but assuming I'm invisible is something else again.

dynaryder
09-13-05, 12:24 AM
You admit that you speed, my bet is that you drive like a maniac half the time. Would your rapid approach sometimes mean that motorists had considerably less time to perceive and react to your presence?

And here's HH's favorite cheerleader. :p I admit to speeding,therefore I ride like a maniac(note:I never drive,never learned how). :rolleyes: Not quite sparky. On side streets that are 25-35,I do the speed limit. On the Beltway,I do Mach,just like most of the other vehicles. My skill level is high enough that I can do this safely,my bike is built for it and well maintained,and speeding allows me to determine how much and what kind of traffic is around me.

Example:if you were doing 55 on a stretch of highway marked 55,and an 18-wheeler pulled up along side of you,would you speed up and get away from him,or just pace him? The correct answer is to pass him and keep him behind you. 18-wheelers block your view and have a nasty habit of shedding tires. If you're next to him when a tire goes,you're toast. And if he sheds it up the road from you,you're dodging debris.


(And don't expect a kind and amused reaction when you come on a bicycle safety forum and admit to speeding. :( )

Wow. Then I better not mention getting together with other bikers and taking over small towns. :rolleyes:


If you feel "invisible" and you always "expect the worst," I really question why you would ever get on either kind if bike. Do you have poor judgment or were you exaggerating the risk you feel when you are riding?

If my judgment was poor,I don't think I would've lasted this long. I understand the risks. I also understand how to manage them. Are you suggesting I ride around with my head in the clouds,trusting that drivers always follow the rules and pay attention to what they're doing?

dynaryder
09-13-05, 12:30 AM
Roody and Keith99 already answered this, and I agree with what they said.

That was a cop-out.


There is no doubt that cyclists and motorcyclists have a visibility issue compared to cars. But how likely a motorcyclist or cyclist will be seen by a right-turner (or left-turner from oncoming traffic, for that matter) can vary based on the cyclist's behavior... in particular where he chooses to ride, clothing colors, etc.

Just curious,how much experience do you have riding motorcycles? If none,then don't presume to know better than me.

Oh,and you got me again. Well trolled sir.

dynaryder
09-13-05, 12:31 AM
The point is to get another person to see you. What point is there in doing that if you're assuming you're invisible?

Assuming you're invisible is very different from NOT assuming you are visible.

I would never assume anyone sees me, but assuming I'm invisible is something else again.


Somebody's been watching Mystery Men on Sci-Fi. :D

gpljr75
09-13-05, 08:53 AM
The point is to get another person to see you. What point is there in doing that if you're assuming you're invisible?

Assuming you're invisible is very different from NOT assuming you are visible.

I would never assume anyone sees me, but assuming I'm invisible is something else again.

Are you being serious? Or are you being a troll? If you're serious, then you've begun dealing in such fine semantic distinctions that there really is no difference worth speaking of. When I adopt the old motorcyclist's adage "Always assume you are invisible" I mean the same thing as when you say, "Never assume you are visible." Yet you say the two are "very different." Really? I'm having a hard time imagining how they are so very different.

And if you are a troll, I guess that makes me a sucker.

nick burns
09-13-05, 09:48 AM
Agreed. Hey HH,just curious;if the OP is having these probs because he's not riding VC,then how do you explain my same experiences for the past 20 years on a motorcycle? Trust me,I ride my motorcycles vehicularly. I have a large front headlight(that I couldn't turn off if I wanted to) plus amber front running lights,I'm traveling at vehicular speeds,I've got a nice bright helmet with reflective material,and I'm following the rules(except perhaps the speed limit ;) ),but I get pulled out on all the time.

So what am I doing wrong on my motorcycle? Maybe after you find someone to teach me to cycle VC,you can get me someone to teach me to ride my Harley? :p

To everyone else out there:if you're on/in anything smaller than a car,you're invisible. Expect the worst and don't think they'll see you. I've been riding for 2 decades like this and have yet to have a physical exchange with a car.

Excellent post. I was hoping a motorcyclist might chime in.


I have noticed a particularly prevalent behavior in drivers when they approach an intersection. When I was learning to drive my father instructed me to look left-right-left before proceeding. The logic being the traffic in the lane closest to you would be the first danger to you, yet almost every motorist I see looks right first and often only affords a quick glance to the left.

I wonder how many accidents could be attributed to this behavior. When I bring it up in conversations I find many people have never heard of that particular rule of thumb.