View Full Version : any info on HPV's specially Utilitarian bikes...??
ricardo kuhn
09-11-05, 12:27 AM
I remenber in the old days seeing Human power vehicle races on TV, interbike(well some geeks at least) and mazazines... the Gold rush, mister freddy, all this wonderful looking "Fish" but is being some time since i see any of them around.
do you guys and gals know were i can find current links..? specially of the Utilitarian type, you know people movers, big loads, power couplers,, etc
thanks in advance,,,oh also if anybody see human power helicopters projects and all that fun stuff i will love to see their progress
Ricardo
You could do a google search for that ultra-light human-powered airplane that someone flew across the english channel (I think...)
ricardo kuhn
09-11-05, 10:32 AM
You could do a google search for that ultra-light human-powered airplane that someone flew across the english channel (I think...)
Oh I know the Gossamer albatros very well i even have a book about it plus I visit paul mcgridi's shop (wrong spelling i'm sure) you see what I'm taking about that fly happend 20 years ago, i want to see more current stuff..
yes i done the goggle thing and is some information, but all static, no forums like this that i can find.
I'm not sure if there are any forums that are that specific.
And, I don't think there will ever be that big a market, since humans can only output a puny 0.25 HP (ish). I would need almost 550 people pulling my car, to equal the performance of a gas engine (calculated purely by dividing horsepower ratings).
So, human powered vehicles will surely be limited to bicycles and perhaps fringe experiments.....
I remenber in the old days seeing Human power vehicle races on TV, interbike(well some geeks at least) and mazazines... the Gold rush, mister freddy, all this wonderful looking "Fish" but is being some time since i see any of them around.
do you guys and gals know were i can find current links..? specially of the Utilitarian type, you know people movers, big loads, power couplers,, etc
thanks in advance,,,oh also if anybody see human power helicopters projects and all that fun stuff i will love to see their progress
You can find a lot about HPVs here: http://www.ihpva.org/. They have floating and flying HPV sections, including a pair of flying helicopter projects.
As for utility bikes, there's http://rickshawforum.com/. http://www.bikesatwork.com/, http://www.cyclesmaximus.com/ and http://www.lightfootcycles.com/pcmodel.htm are good manufacturers. The latter is a recumbent utility trike. Stay the hell away from Velocab (http://www.velocab.com/velocab.htm), their bikes are flawed and they treat you like like a piece of refuse if you ever call them with a problem (a friend of mine has a bicycle taxi and delivery company, that's how I know about these bikes).
So, human powered vehicles will surely be limited to bicycles and perhaps fringe experiments.....
Tell that to the chinese, the indians or the africans: they move stuff you wouldn't believe with their bikes. The only difference between a 500hp truck and a 0.25hp utility bike is speed, but they'll both get there eventually on short (and not so short) distances. Not all people of the world have chosen to rely exclusively on motorized vehicles to get around you know. Your way of thinking is strictly cultural and makes sense only in our rich western worlds (for now), but most of the rest of the world knows better.
I reckon there are four excellent reasons why HPVs will become a huge market eventually (including goods delivery, people moving as well as regular personal transportation): (1) bikes are super-cheap (in poor countries, they're often the only alternative), (2) they don't use gasoline which is getting scarcer and pricier every year, (3) they offer a great answer to urban mobility in dense gridlocked cities and (4) they can provide useful exercise for fat westerners (they lose weight as well as get somewhere, as opposed to pedalling uselessly in a gym room).
Eventually, I think the price of gas and insurance, and endless traffic jams, will force car-dependent societies to rediscover common sense and start using bicycles again where they're useful and economically sound.
Eatadonut
09-11-05, 02:27 PM
And, I don't think there will ever be that big a market, since humans can only output a puny 0.25 HP (ish). I would need almost 550 people pulling my car, to equal the performance of a gas engine (calculated purely by dividing horsepower ratings).
A) 1/4hp? A decent cyclist should be able to put out about 1/2hp, at least that's the commonly quoted number.
B) even at 1/4 hp, you're talking 112.5 hp to pull a car? You do realize that cars are massively overpowered, right? Back in the day, cars were powered by closer to 50 hp.
on a related note, my roommates and I are in the process of flying a bicycle. I'll keep you guys updated on that.
Well yeah, a bike is great for moving stuff short distances, and in thrid world countries where people don't expect you to get someplace in 20 minutes. In those countries, a customer or friend (whoever you're riding to) may expect you to be taking a bike, along with a significant potion of the population. Thus, the longer travel time is a variable that is worked into the work-day.
In the developed countries, people expect you to take a car. They want something delivered within a set time period, and get upset if it isn't. If your job is o deliver thing, there's no way you can make more than a few trips per day. And if you can't do that, then you can't make a profit or a living.
And that's the big difference here, it's the fast-paced society. We either need to slow down and simplify our lives, or accept that there are some things that a bike simply isn't suited for. And don't even get me started on flight. :P
I don't know, maybe someday your new couch will be delivered by four young strapping lads on a heavy duty double-tandem delivery bike. If that day does arrive, just be sure to invest in energy bar manufacturers...
Well yeah, a bike is great for moving stuff short distances, and in thrid world countries where people don't expect you to get someplace in 20 minutes. In those countries, a customer or friend (whoever you're riding to) may expect you to be taking a bike, along with a significant potion of the population. Thus, the longer travel time is a variable that is worked into the work-day.
In the developed countries, people expect you to take a car. They want something delivered within a set time period, and get upset if it isn't. If your job is o deliver thing, there's no way you can make more than a few trips per day. And if you can't do that, then you can't make a profit or a living.
And that's the big difference here, it's the fast-paced society. We either need to slow down and simplify our lives, or accept that there are some things that a bike simply isn't suited for. And don't even get me started on flight. :P
I don't know, maybe someday your new couch will be delivered by four young strapping lads on a heavy duty double-tandem delivery bike. If that day does arrive, just be sure to invest in energy bar manufacturers...
Okay, let me tell you about my friend who delivers things by bike: he operates in Toulouse, France, a city of 750,000. He offers a 1h guaranteed delivery time between pickup and delivery, any time of the day, in the greater Toulouse area, and a 30 minute "express" guarantee. He can haul up to 200kg of stuff, which he does regularly (mainly cases of wine delivered to a wine dealer, and electrical appliances like washing machines or fridges). The base price of a delivery is 5.50 euro, and less for scheduled repeat deliveries (he brings wheat to bakeries every morning, I think they pay less than 3 euros a run). On top of that, in the high season, he offers sight-seeing tours of the city for 20 euros/hr for tourists. Finally, he uses his fleet of trikes as rolling billboards, and charges for ads put up on the side of the trikes at 300 euros/mth. He and his associate ride 60km a day on electric-assist trikes, or regular two-wheelers for express deliveries.
Toulouse isn't New-York, it is much less dense, and yet he turns a profit because (1) he's faster than regular delivery services on his bikes (who else can haul fridges on cycle paths, bypassing traffic jams everywhere?), if he's late the customer gets his money back, and he appeals to a growing demand for clean transportation by the general public. Plus his bike rides are a blast, I hired him for 2 hours and he pedalled 2 of us 30km away along the historic Canal du Midi. Can't beat that really...
So, unlike what you think, bike deliveries aren't incompatible with a fast-paced society, and aren't reserved to third-world countries. That sort of service makes sense economically and ecologically in many places around Europe, and in the US as well, albeit admittedly much less so. It's all a matter of identifying a need and fulfilling it with the right tool, like any other business.
Eatadonut
09-11-05, 04:00 PM
Well yeah, a bike is great for moving stuff short distances, and in thrid world countries where people don't expect you to get someplace in 20 minutes. In those countries, a customer or friend (whoever you're riding to) may expect you to be taking a bike, along with a significant potion of the population. Thus, the longer travel time is a variable that is worked into the work-day.
In the developed countries, people expect you to take a car. They want something delivered within a set time period, and get upset if it isn't. If your job is o deliver thing, there's no way you can make more than a few trips per day. And if you can't do that, then you can't make a profit or a living.
And that's the big difference here, it's the fast-paced society. We either need to slow down and simplify our lives, or accept that there are some things that a bike simply isn't suited for. And don't even get me started on flight. :P
I don't know, maybe someday your new couch will be delivered by four young strapping lads on a heavy duty double-tandem delivery bike. If that day does arrive, just be sure to invest in energy bar manufacturers...
It takes me 2 minutes less to get to campus on my bike than it does for my friends to take a shuttle, due to traffic. And I can leave any time I please, not just on :15 and :45. If you think you can't get things delivered by bike even faster than car, then explain the existence of bike messengers in major cities. It's cheaper and faster for many things. There ARE some things a bike isn't suited for. Like delivering couches, and hauling fill dirt, or transporting 50 people cross-country. But the same could be said for a Honda Civic, or a crane.
And bike power is cheaper. A bike powered helicopter, if it could be made reliable and controllable, would be relatively cheap compared to an actual helicopter, and could enable people to avoid traffic entirely, and get the added bonus of being able to fly!
Don't be a party pooper, just because you can't see the forest for the groundcover.
Hey, don't go all crazy on me here, I'm not trying to troll here. I'm on your side! I commute on a bike! Yes, I agree that bike messengers are a great idea and are faster than cars in many cases. Yes, I agree that bikes beat city buses hands down almost every time.
I suppose I'm not used to dense city driving, as I live in a city of only 180,000. Everything here is so spread out, it takes 20 minutes just to cross the city in a car! There are almost no bike paths (though new roads are getting them), and in general it's not a very bike-friendly city. Cars rule here, and bikes are simply tolerated.
That's cool about the guy in France though, does he use the electric trikes for hauling 200kg, or just his legs? And why is this guy not in the TDF? ;)
A bike helicopter is going too far though. You can't exactly pull over to rest if you get tired!
Hey, don't go all crazy on me here, I'm not trying to troll here. I'm on your side!
No worries Jeff-o, I realize that. I do acknowledge that you guys in north America have a lot more merit using bikes to commute and do useful things than we do in Europe, as the country just isn't designed for them, both in terms of scale, infrastructures, and the stupendous lack of political will to loosen the dependence on oil and also develop public transportation there. I was just commenting on westerner's dependence on motorized transports as a cultural issue in general.
That's cool about the guy in France though, does he use the electric trikes for hauling 200kg, or just his legs? And why is this guy not in the TDF? ;)
He and his associate use power-assisted trikes (the big hauler has a 36V 800W Heinzmann brushless front hub, and the 2 pedicabs/smaller haulers use 24V and provide 600W iirc). For small deliveries (flowers, envelopes) , they have a regular cheap steel ATB with big panniers front and rear. As for trying the TdF, I guess they'll probably wait for the UCI to validate the use of power-assisted trikes :-)
I figure this thread is getting way offtopic here though. Maybe we should continue it on Living Car Free...
Hmmm, where can I score one of these 800W motors? I want to build an electric recumbent trike, not because I'm lazy, but because I want to keep up with 60 km/h traffic.
*checks online for Heinzmann motors*
The heck? over 1000 euros for a 500W kit with a lousy 5Ah Ni-Cd battery?? I think I'll pass....
http://www.estelle.de/e/typen.asp
(and no 800W motors)
This is my gift to you, ricardo:
http://webpages.charter.net/rcgilmore/Illustrations.htm
vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.