Commuting - You won't believe this.....

OK, I want to preface this with a "I know you won't believe this" because we just had a somewhat heated debate on the use of pepper spray on dogs.
I bear sprayed a pit bull about 1/2 an hour ago.
I was approaching a down-hill and saw a white colored pit bull off to the right hand side. He was headed towards an open field and I thought "good dog... keep going that way." Well he didn't. He crossed about 50 yards in front of me and was now on the right hand side of the road walking away from me. Well cars are approaching and the dog is now in something of a narrow ravine and he's skirting the guard railing. I got the bear spray ready in my gloved right hand and slowly approached yelling "get out of here!" The dog saw me and started to approach. Now were doing about 12 MPH and the dog is nearly alongside me looking like most pit bulls do when they are chasing something.... I give him a VERY short burst of spray and he stopped like he hit a brick wall. I aimed the spray slightly higherr and in front of him and he was about 15-20 feet away. I slowed way down to make sure the dog wasn't totally incapicated and wriggling in the road way and he was OK. He was huffing and and pawing at his face but he was off the road and heading towards a trailer court. A direct spray in his face would have been cruel and unecessary.
D

I know I'm going to catch hell for this, but as far as I'm concerned, potentially dangerous dogs of any breed can take an entire can in the face. No room for 'em in my world. I was chased by two rogue rottweilers about a month ago, and thank God I was on a flat and in the right gear. I saw them about even with me as I cornered at a green light going about 20 mph - they caught my eye and decided it might be a fun chase. If I were near a hill, my only defense would've been to stop and whack 'em with my pump, which would have been bad. Very bad. If these dogs were on a leash (and somewhere near their owner), I have no problem.

Spray on, man. There are leash laws for a reason. It's a little mean, but dogs are tough, they get over it way faster than you would get over a dog bite.

I used to be somewhat tolerant of dogs roaming free, but it really torques me off these days. Sometimes dogs get out and this is understandable, but there's also a lot of people that just don't have any respect for other people, their own dogs, or themselves for that matter. If you ever take the time to read the statistics on dog bites, it's really suprising at how often it happens and most of the victims are children. I feel the punishment should fit the crime. An owner who lets his dog roam free should be spanked.

I agree with Dougmt. It's not the dog's fault that their owners let them run around like this. And even the milder spraying is going to teach them a lesson about chasing bikers, so it will be a much less dangerous dog from now on.

I don't understand why some people on these forums seem to almost get some sort of pleasure talking about how they'd just love to pepper-spray vicious dogs. I am a biker myself, you know, and I've been chased by very nasty-looking dogs and by no means enjoyed it (in fact, it scares the hell out of me). Moreover, when I was around twelve I got actually attacked and bitten by a large dog - still have a scar on my left arm. But I still don't see the need for cruelty when milder measures will suffice (and not only for saving your ass but for actually turning the dog off bike chases)..... Shame on you, people.

An owner who lets his dog roam free should be spanked. Well, actually if the area is not densely-populated and the dog is well-behaved, I see no problem with this. Otherwise, yes, the owner should be spanked or pepper-sprayed or something.

Personally, ifa dog is chasing oyu with the intent to latch itself onto you and tear you into little peices. I don't care if you kill it, let alone pepper spray it. People die when getting mauled by pitbulls, I think self-defense is perfectly ok.

I have carried Halt (velco to the down tube) for many years. Fortunately I've only had to use it a couple of times. I always try to do the same thing Dougmt did...yell and speed up!

However, I do have a 5 foot rule. If a dog comes within 5 feet and is chasing me, he gets it.

I like dogs. Big dogs and little dogs. I like dogs on leashes and in fenced yards. I like owners who pay attention to their dogs and follow the leash law.

I also like riding my bike and running. If a dog is wondering loose, it's owner obviously doesn't care about it. In that case, it's war. And I will win.

I'm with PhattTyre on this one. There are too many big dogs who might even be nice at home, who turn into maulers when roaming and taking up the chase. Hopefully, your use of pepper spray turns this dog off cyclists, but I might not have been so generous. They'll recover and if they don't, I'm not sure I care. Pit bulls, rots and whatnot ought NOT be roaming w/o a stout leash and handler. EVER.

Pitbulls are banned where I live, and leashes are mandatory. Just this morning I had a white dog (don't know the breed) that tried to get me, but he was securely leashed. He never would have caught me anyhow, I was right at the top of a long downhill that I can easily reach 45 km/h if I need to...

If someone on here gives you crap for spraying a dog that is potentially dangerous then they have probably never been in that kind of situation. I live in a "not-so-nice" neighborhood with a lot of pits. I have almost been attacked twice while mowing my yard. Ever since then, I carry a pistol on me when I'm outside. I'll probably get flamed for this but if I get attack by a pit, its not going to last long. That being sad, I'm not going to shoot until it actually does something.

Good job on those of you who don't blame the Stafordshire Terriers, but blame the owner. I thought bad things about them until I got one and learned how loving they are. sadly people get them with the intention of having a guard dog. A well loved Staffordshire will protect protect its owner during times of need. My 2 have changed the entire neighborhoods opinion of them.

Places that ban a breed suck, they need to deal with other things and leave this crap alone. I'll be pleased when lawsuits pop up from this. Here in part of LA, there was an area that banned things like clipping ears, tails and removing cat claws. Lawsuits are popping up over it. I am a responsible "pit bull" owner (not a correct breed term, Its a Staff) and I don't like what the news portrays them as. Spend time with one and you can see how happy and loving the breed is.

Do a search online and see who all has owned them and things the breed has done, such as in war time. Would Helen Keller really have owned one if they were bad?

Unfortunately, it's easier to ban a breed of dogs known for attacking people, than it is to regulate the owners. It's like taking a sharp knife out of the hands of a toddler....

It's the owner's fault. I live in Brooklyn and I see all sorts of pitbulls. Pitbulls that are super aggressive/protective and then, there are pitbulls who are super friendly, heeling next to its master without a leash.

It's all about the training and disicpline that they either had or did not have.

Question for DougMT: You were 150ft away from the dog when you first spotted it....why didn't you just come to a complete stop? If I see a pit, I would definitely stop in my tracks and see what he'll do. Maybe he would have kept on going and left you alone.

What you did was dangerous....what if your spray somehow got picked up by the wind and you get a little whiff of it? You'll be on the ground choking. Trust me, dogs are tough! They can take A LOT of pain and they heal much quickly than humans.

Of course it's all the owners' fault. When you "declare a war", you declare a war on the owner, but the innocent dog suffers. I am not saying you should just sit there and get teared into little pieces, but if you can easily avoid killing and injuring the dog, you should, otherwise you are a f@cking miserable sh!thead and I'll pepper spray you next time I see you (I don't care if I get banned for this, people who are unnecessarily cruel to animals should not even be alive).

For the record, I repeat that I have been chased by mean dogs with big teeth and was attacked and bitten as a kid by a dog that weighed about as much as I did at the time, if not more. So don't give me no "Oh, you don't know what it's like" bull****.



Hopefully, your use of pepper spray turns this dog off cyclists, but I might not have been so generous. For God's sake, splashing them with WATER usually teaches them not to do this, as my anecdotal evidence reveals. And pepper spray is much less pleasant, so will have a far greater educational effect.



They'll recover and if they don't, I'm not sure I care. Pit bulls, rots and whatnot ought NOT be roaming w/o a stout leash and handler. EVER. Let's see how you like this statement instead: "If a toddler runs into the street, I just run over him. He'll recover, and if not, I'm not sure I care. Little kids aren't supposed to be roaming the streets by themselves EVER." Of course agressive dogs shouldn't be out there. But just like with the toddler, it's not their fault they are there, and it's not THEY who should take the punishment.

Good biker... bad dog.

Let's see how you like this statement instead: "If a toddler runs into the street, I just run over him. He'll recover, and if not, I'm not sure I care. Little kids aren't supposed to be roaming the streets by themselves EVER." Of course agressive dogs shouldn't be out there. But just like with the toddler, it's not their fault they are there, and it's not THEY who should take the punishment.

I thought I might stay out of this one as most are on my side, but now that you have completely gone off the deep end, valuing the life of a dog over that of a child, I must chime in.

Next time I resist the urge to spray two aggressive rottweilers, and they take me down and maul me, I'll send you the hospital/funeral bill. Get a grip, man. Without getting into relgion and philosophy, we're all God's creatures, and dammit, man is at the top of the food chain for a reason. No angry dog gets my consideration.

Over and OUT.

Let's see how you like this statement instead: "If a toddler runs into the street, I just run over him. He'll recover, and if not, I'm not sure I care. Little kids aren't supposed to be roaming the streets by themselves EVER." Of course agressive dogs shouldn't be out there. But just like with the toddler, it's not their fault they are there, and it's not THEY who should take the punishment.
You're an [removed by moderator] if you think a toddler standing in the street is as dangerous as a dog that thinks you're prey and is trying to catch you and eat you.

People aren't spraying dogs with pepper spray for being in the street, they're spraying them becaused they are being ATTACKED BY THE DOG.

Do you not understand how that is 100% completely different from spraying a dog just for being there?

Why does everyone assume that dogs chase us to catch and destroy us? The vast majority of dogs are only looking to run alongside us out of boredom; they are actually the ones in danger, what with playing out in the road.

How can you tell if they want to play? The ones that have chased me made fairly menacing sounds. Were they just playing?

It is pretty easy to tell if they are playing or want to attack you, take a good look at teh body language before they get too close. Hackles standing up is bad, ears laid back when not running is bad, position of head in relation to body as they are coming close to you etc.. What i have found effective is to just stop when i see an unknown dog coming out at me. I will tell them NO!!! in no uncertain terms and act as the dominant animal and if they appear serious, I will go after them first, never had one stand up to me yet and I ride where there seems to be a fair amount of large dogs. That said, if one does bite me, it is a dead dog. I generally can't outsprint a dog on my bike unless I see them from a long ways off, so I just stop and get off my bike and give the dog the impression that any further aggression would not be in its best interest.

Why does everyone assume that dogs chase us to catch and destroy us? The vast majority of dogs are only looking to run alongside us out of boredom; they are actually the ones in danger, what with playing out in the road.

[Moderator: please state your point without name calling Thanks]

a toddler standing in the street is as dangerous as a dog that thinks you're prey and is trying to catch you and eat you. Swerving to avoid it might be just as dangerous, more so in fact.


I thought I might stay out of this one as most are on my side, but now that you have completely gone off the deep end, valuing the life of a dog over that of a child, I must chime in. This is not what I said; I never compared the two and in fact for this example it doesn't matter at all whose life I value more. Read it again if you missed my point.

Also I never said "Don't spray a dog, don't do anything, let it maul you". Of course one should deal with aggressive dogs, sometimes in a tough way. Hell, I am considering getting something like pepper spray myself! But why do the people want to use the most sadistic way, the strongest pepper spray, the hugest dose of it? Spray some of the milder stuff in your face and ask yourself if you'd want to chase bikers after getting a dose of that. Anyway, among other things, don't you realize that it's more dangerous for you this way too? A wind changing directions momentarily, some of that stuff blows into your face... Oops!

Let's see how you like this statement instead: "If a toddler runs into the street, I just run over him. He'll recover, and if not, I'm not sure I care. Little kids aren't supposed to be roaming the streets by themselves EVER." Of course agressive dogs shouldn't be out there. But just like with the toddler, it's not their fault they are there, and it's not THEY who should take the punishment.

[maced by Moderator - please refrain from personal attacks]

Yeah, next time I see a toddler run out onto the street I'll be sure to turn and run the other way because at 15+mph it may grab my ankle with jaws designed for taking down and killing live prey :rolleyes:

[maced by Moderator - please refrain from personal attacks] They are a weapon, as leathal as a gun. They're always loaded and if not managed/restrained by their owner then they will find their own target. I've been attacked 3 times in the past month, one time the dog was encouraged by the owner to attack me, luckily it was a juvenile dog and not too confident so a swift kick to the snout and it stood down. I chased the owner with the intention of giving him a good kick to the snout as well but he jumped a fence and got away (abandoned the dog).

OP.... pepper spray the dog untill you're happy that it's safe to stop sraying, just save some spray for the dog's owner as well. :mad:

[maced by Moderator - please refrain from personal attacks]


Yeah, next time I see a toddler run out onto the street I'll be sure to turn and run the other way because at 15+mph it may grab my ankle with jaws designed for taking down and killing live prey :rolleyes: You might have to do some pretty dangerous maneouvering to avoid it.


I've been attacked 3 times in the past month, one time the dog was encouraged by the owner to attack me, luckily it was a juvenile dog and not too confident so a swift kick to the snout and it stood down. I chased the owner with the intention of giving him a good kick to the snout as well but he jumped a fence and got away (abandoned the dog). Owners like that should get not just pepper-sprayed but put away in jail for a long-long time. No arguments here.

If you are really concerned about public safety, you should report chasing incidents to the authorities that manage animal ownership in your municipality. They can take dogs away from irresponsible owners. In fact, they'll put them down, if there is no other way to restrain them, but, I imagine, by a more humane method than burning their eyes out....

We have a bit of a problem down here in Melbourne Australia along the bike paths where owners walking their dogs feel that although there are leash laws, it is OK to leave their dog off the leash running amok among the cyclists, walkers and children because their dog "wouldnt bite or harm anyone". I've had about a dozen cases whilst riding to work where a dog has dashed out in front of me causing me to swerve and avoid a nasty collision. Its those owners who have no appreciation of anything but themselves that are the problem....maybe a bit of pepper spray on them might be the solution !!!

Owners like that should get not just pepper-sprayed but put away in jail for a long-long time. No arguments here.

If you are really concerned about public safety, you should report chasing incidents to the authorities that manage animal ownership in your municipality. They can take dogs away from irresponsible owners. In fact, they'll put them down, if there is no other way to restrain them, but, I imagine, by a more humane method than burning their eyes out....

Agreed...

It was reported to the local cops, even the chase with intent to do bodily harm to the owner, it was encouraging that the cop said "off the record, teach him a lesson just don't hospitalise him and we won't have a problem *wink*"

Unfortunately, without being able to identify the owner's name or address there's not much more they can do. I do however stand by my position that when under attack I am entitled to do whatever it takes to defend myself from being mauled, even if the dog physically suffers as a consequence.

Sorry, I have a Golden Retriever that is trained off the leash for retrieving in parks only. He'll follow any command I give him, regardless of what animal, person, activity is going on around me - given that, I would never have him off a leash or allow him to roam other than when he's playing with his frisbee.

I advocate the use of pepper spray, etc. to protect yourself against aggressive animals unattended.

Recently I was on a run, minding my own business when 4 dogs ran up to me and were very menacing - the owner came out of nowhere (not a one was leashed) and said "I'm sorry" then proceeded to fight them off me as they crowded around me sniffing what was clearly my dog. Needless to say, I would have shot them without waiting to see what their intentions were if I was armed. The idea that people should wait and see if the dog is truly aggressive is assinine.

As far as pit bulls go, yes - the dog typically is not at fault, but the breed has been over done, and then add that everybody who seems to own one has the mentality that they're either pit fighters still, or extremely hostile guard dogs and they raise them as such. Rule #1, if you have a 20 lb. chain around your dogs neck, your intention to slow it down is actually making the dog stronger than you.

Let me end with one final post before I turn it. Strong feelings about the topic made me present my views somewhat incoherently.

So: I do not condemn self-defense. If a vicious dog is attacking you, by all means, pepper-spray it if you can. However, what I object strongly to are the following:

1) "I don't care for the dog"

Yes, you've been forced by a criminally negligent (or worse, malicious) owner to do a nasty thing to an innocent living thing. I do not blame you for that, but I DO blame you if you don't find hurting the dog unpleasant. While I would spray a dog in such a situation, I would nevertheless be feeling for the poor creature who's had a lot of tough luck in its life thanks to its POS of an owner (e.g. being injured in dog fights, being pepper-sprayed for chasing cyclists etc). If you DON'T have any sympathy with the poor thing, then in my opinion you fully deserve to have your nose taken off your face by a pit bull; perhaps you should be reminded how much some things hurt. Having sympathy for it doesn't mean letting it tear you into little pieces. It just means you are unhappy an animal is suffering. This would also mean that you wouldn't make it suffer needlessly. If you are confornted with the sort of dog that will stop chasing after merely a loud shout, there is no need to torture it by pouring a gallon of bear spray on it. Spraying something milder and not so much of it is justified due to its educational effects; cruelty isn't.

2) "Punish the dog, leave the owner alone"

It seems we all agreed that the owners and not the dogs are the real problem. You don't really accomplish that much by hurting a dog. Indeed, if you are not dealing with one of those "death machines", trained to ignore the pain and kill, then spraying it fairly mildly will put it off chasing cyclists. But if you are dealing with a "death machine", emptying all the spray cans in the world on it still isn't likely to deter it. You can, of course, kill the dog, but then the issue is still not resolved - the owner will just get a new one and train it to behave just the same. If you don't try to do something about the owner, he'll still be a hazard to dogs (those unlucky enough to en up being his) and to the humans and other animals who will be attacked by his dogs. But of course, instead of trying to address the real issue and stopping both animal and human suffering, it's so much easier (and perhaps more fun for some perverts?) to just keep fighting off and killing those dogs, that are only going to be replaced by new ones, just as aggressive.... If you really are concerned about public safety, take steps to address the real issue of irresponsible owners. I really do value the life of any dog over the life of owners like that. They do a lot more harm than any one dog can, and they do it knowingly too. I won't be feeling for THEM when spraying them with bear spray.......

Ok, sleepy-bye time.

Question for DougMT: You were 150ft away from the dog when you first spotted it....why didn't you just come to a complete stop? If I see a pit, I would definitely stop in my tracks and see what he'll do. Maybe he would have kept on going and left you alone.
What you did was dangerous....what if your spray somehow got picked up by the wind and you get a little whiff of it? You'll be on the ground choking. Trust me, dogs are tough! They can take A LOT of pain and they heal much quickly than humans.

Actaully I did stop. I dropped the holder thing for the spray and had to turn around for it. I then proceeded cautiously down the hill and had cars coming UP the hill with the dog on my right. I hoped to sneak past him and make my way on down the road but as soon as the dog saw me the chase was on.
As far as being dangerous, I don't think so. I shot a VERY quick burst of the spray and this stuff shoots 30 feet. I was past the cloud of spray about the same time it hit the dog as I was going between 12-15 MPH. The dog stopped like he hit a brick wall when he came into the cloud. This stuff will stop a pissed of grizzly it'll stop a pissed off dog.
My wife and I had another experience with a dog today and I had the spray ready again. She was about 50 yards behind me around a corner and I had a large dog come barking and running.... it stopped at the perimeter of the yard when I rode by but I turned fast to make sure it didn't attack my wife. It ran out again as we met in front of the yard and again it stopped at the perimeter.... I'm sure it was trained on one of those perimeter fences based on it's actions.
For the record, we are dog owners. We have a beagle/lab mix that weighs 65 pounds as a 7 month old pup. I would want him sprayed if he chased ANYONE. As responsible pet owners he is trained but if for some reason he put ANYONE at risk.... I'd want him sprayed!!!!
D

As responsible pet owners he is trained but if for some reason he put ANYONE at risk.... I'd want him sprayed!!!! Yes, for both the cyclist's AND the dog's sake. The dog will be safer if it learns not to chase... even the hard way.

You don't really accomplish that much by hurting a dog.

Snipping out a lot of clarifying stuff.

I think we all understand that the intent is not to hurt the dog, but to be safe. I simply do not trust dogs. Period. Until we can actually talk to them, which will never happen, I will assume that a dog approaching me directly, whether he thinks it is playing or not, wants me off that bike. It's different when on foot as opposed to a bike. I am not Dr. Doolittle, so erring on the side of caution and self-preservation is my modus operandi.

Those two rottweilers a month ago? If I would have stopped, there was no telling what was going to happen. They weren't going Cujo on me, but I was certainly a 'person of interest.' There's no sense in experimenting with animal psychology when all I want to do is get to work.

Thanks for clarifying though :beer:

Good job on those of you who don't blame the Stafordshire Terriers, but blame the owner. I thought bad things about them until I got one and learned how loving they are. sadly people get them with the intention of having a guard dog. A well loved Staffordshire will protect protect its owner during times of need. My 2 have changed the entire neighborhoods opinion of them.

My nephew got one this summer. I love dogs, but had never really been up close to a "pit bull". I gotta say, it's just as happy and playful as any other dog. He'd never seen me before, but with the lack of concern of his owners, the only threat to me was getting licked and wagged to death. Same as pretty much any other well-treated and well-loved dog.

All that said, if I had pepper spray and they chased me onto the road, I'd spray em. I'd spray my OWN dog if she did that. It's dangerous for the dogs to be out on the road, and the pepper spray isn't going to hurt them permanently. You're doing them a favor by discouranging chasing.

Our dog is behind an invisible fence. She can worry people who don't know that, as we have 500 feet of property on the road, and she loves to run. Harleys are a favorite, as are diesel trucks. She runs out to the edge of the ditch when there's something fun going by, but she never crosses.

I think we all understand that the intent is not to hurt the dog, but to be safe. Given some of the quotes and jokes from this forum and other places, this was not clear to me. I mean, yes, primarily people just want to stay safe, but it seems some just love giving the dog what it "deserves".

but it seems some just love giving the dog what it "deserves".

Maybe that's because when you tell something about what a dog did, most people including the owners react mildly. I was attacked by 2 chows while on foot and with my own dog. People saw, including the owner and nobody made an effort to help.

Yes, I maced both dogs good and headed out. While trying to get away the owner advanced -- yelling that he'll sue. I told him a 2nd time to get his dogs on leash. Instead he kept advancing, so I aimed the mace at him! He backed off. I took off, covered with mud, and a ripped suit jacket.

The dogs were known to bite. Yet afterwards, neighbors remarked, "oh a couple of dogs just got loose" .

Wow. Just curious,are you all encountering these dogs in the city,or the suburbs? Every single dog I've encountered on a bike in DC has been a 'city dog'. They just ignored me. In fact,the only canine probs I've had are from owners who don't get that having a 100 yard extend-a-leash is a bad idea in a crowded city. But the dogs themselves haven't been a problem. They're used to all manner of things passing closely by them.

I could never do such an act! I do a have a concience you know!

back to leashes. my pet peeve: these retractable leashes that are longer than a weather balloon. if your dog is four blocks ahead of you or at the starbucks five minutes before you get there just forget the leash. i always see dogs who i think are lost, then notice a looooong leash to their owners. who invented these?

one clueless guy in the park recently had a decapitation deal set up on a 20 food WIDE trail. he's one one side, his dogs on the other and he's staring off into space. luckily i saw in advance and hollered "SIR I WON'T BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH"...

I am a dog lover and I love my dog but I have no patience with irresponsible dog owners!! And yes, I wouldn't hesitate to spray a dog that was potentially going to bite me. I don't care!! Keep your dog in your yard and you wouldn't have that problem! Just last night, I saw a dog chasing but more like following a car ACROSS a busy road. I just can not believe these dog owners. Very sad.

That is ridiculous!! I agree with you. I have one those leashes and rarely use it because I do feel like I have no control, or that it takes more effort to control, if that makes any sense. It is never a leasurely walk, I have to keep pulling him back, or correcting him. I would just rather take the 6' leash and have him right in front of me where he is most likely to fall into a "heal" and where the walk is so much more enjoyable.