Mountain Biking - XTR down to Deore. Is there REALLY that much difference?

OK, bear with me here. I am not here to say that XTR or XT or LX are not good components. I am just asking you it you think that maybe Deore and even Avilio could be about the same in most areas other than maybe a few grams in weight?
This is where I'm coming from. I have had a few Kleins and a few Treks and a few Gary Fishers. With components ranging from XT to Avilio. My current Gary Fisher has a Deore Rear derailer and shifters and an Avilio front derailer. (I recently traded in my old Klein with some extra money so I could get both a road bike and a mountain bike. So they came with lower end components.) I was expecting to maybe have some issues or just a sloppy feel with the shifting but was pleasantly surprised that this new low end stuff works GREAT! Actually, it feels better than my XT stuff on my did. So I asked one of the guys at the bike shop about it and he said that, other than weight, a Deore component is about the same as an LX or XT and so on. I know they lighter materials in the more expensive stuff but we are talking a few grams. Other than that, he seemed to think that the reliability and performance would be about the same. And I would'nt have beleived him myself if I didn't have first hand experience.
So it just makes me wonder why so many people feel the need to spend SO much more on the higher end components when there isn't much difference (or atleast in my experience). I understand that the nicer bikes come with the higher end stuff but other than that it would seem like unless you REALLY need to save a few grams in weight, you don't really need anything more than, say, Deore.
What do you guys think? What have you experienced yourselves?

Wow, Im surprised the only difference between xtr and deore is weight. For the huge gap in prices, I would think it is more durable, lighter, stronger and overall better. But I really don't know much about why one is better than the other, thats just my guess ^^

XTR lasts longer before it develops play, is lighter, has cartridge bearings in the jockey wheels. I think it has a lighter spring too. I dont really care though, because Shimano shifting sucks compared to SRAM. I run X.9 and love it to death.

Right now I'm riding my dads bike with alvio all around, and my riding buddy has all xt. We ride lots of single track, some technical dh (on a ht), and some pretty tough uphill stuff. My dads bike goes out of tune every ride (2-3 hours). I'm grinding the gears if I don't adjust, clean, lube (sometimes 2 hours of labor) after every ride whereas my buddy can go a 8-10 rides before tuning and he barely has to adjust. Also his bike's shifts are noticable more smooth and quiet, peddling is easier, etc. The first time I took my dads bike out I felt the same as you, but man it's a PITA now and thats why I'm gettin my stumpy tomrrow.

It's like comparing a ford gt to a porsche gt sure the ford is fast and handles for less, but come on, the porsche owns it.

I can go as many rides as I want without having to re-adjust my SRAM setup. I do throw it in a stand before and after each ride to check and make sure, but it always seems to be dialed...

I used to run Shimano Deore due to the fact Ithought it performed great, and for my style of riding, Fr/DH/DH racing, they are going to be broken reasonably often. Now I run a Shimano Alivio, road equivalent to deore and I am happy. The higher end stuff seems as though it doesnt need to be adjusted as often, it is lighter and marginally a crisper shift. However most people buy it for the wank factor.

My friend and I went on a 25 mile ride the other day. He has a Klein with full XT and I have a Gary Fisher with Deore, Avilio, Deore. The ride consisted of a lot of technical stuff so shifting was constant. I never even had a hickup durring the whole 2 and a half hours of the ride. If anything, he was grinding a few gear at times. Now his setup was older than mine so that might account for his issues but I had absolutely none. I have been riding it pretty hard for the last few months and have yet to adjust anything. So maybe Avilio is when it starts gettinga little rough, I don't know, but atleast Deore seems rock solid to me.
And as for durability, I know they might us so TI in maybe XTR but the all alluminum of Deore should show where much faster than any of the others. But I guess only time will tell.

I think people like it 'cause it says XTR. It just looks sweet. You know us bike guys are about one-upping each other with a seatpost... derr. if you ever step back and look at that it's kinda ridicuous though!

The way I see it is that building a high spec bike is as much fun as getting out and riding. Its kinda like the guys that spend silly money modding their cars and putting big shiny alloys and body kits on them . Its a hobby at the end of the day, and if someone wants to cover their bike in expensive kit then thats up to them.

sorry, i cant help myself, i have to point it out! ITS ALIVIO, as in alive, not avilio

I find the higher end you go the crisper/quicker the shifts and the less tuning you have to do. Deore works fine though. Where there is a real difference though is in hubs or something like that. You'll notice a huge difference between a Deore hub and an xtr hub.

Personally, I think that XTR/X.O level of component is completely unnecessary unless you are a top racer. Or want to look like one. Or make sure everyone knows you have made the ultimate financial committment.

I have no experience with Deore except for a pair of v brakes I bought for a bike. They work fine but are nowhere near the performance level/feel/adjustability of XTR v-Brakes. I don't think weight is the only difference there. That is the only comparison I personally have.


My geared bike came with a mix of lx and xt. old lx pod shifters, front lx derailler, rear xt derailler. I have put on the new XT cranks. They have worked as flawlessly as could be expected. I think XT is the Weight/Durability/function/price pinnacle of the shimano line.

As far as your new lower end stuff working as good or better as your old XT. That is where the technology trickles down to. 2005 deore probably has the same level of technology as 2001 XTR.

I think deore is fine componentry, by the way. I am with you that if I was building a geared mountain bike from the ground up with shimano, I would probably build it with a mix of lx/deore. On a new build I am doing this fall I have purchased all SRAM stuff anyway. I don't like being forced into combo brakes/shifters and rapidrise.

I agree with your comments on shimano forcing people into combined brake/shifter units and rapid rise stuff. However I have recently bought rear mech, shifters and front mech in last years XTR so the shifters are separate units allowing me to run non shimano brakes and the mech is non rapid rise, and the finish is a nicer colour. And the best bit, it cost me less than XT. I can't say for sure if I would have bought XTR at full price. I would have liked to, but I think I may just have gone for XT. Anyway, not an issue I've got full XTR now and haven't had to pay a price that makes you feel sick when you scratch it on the first ride out.

Just a quick thought on the combined units. Doesn't anyone else think that Shimano will be forced into continuing to produce non integrated shifters/levers, as surely they are loads of riders out there that want to run shimano gearing with the likes of Hope or Magura brakes.

sorry, i cant help myself, i have to point it out! ITS ALIVIO, as in alive, not avilio
Oops! My dyslexia must have kicked in. :)

I understand that the nicer bikes come with the higher end stuff but other than that it would seem like unless you REALLY need to save a few grams in weight, you don't really need anything more than, say, Deore.

Good points above in terms of weight and performance. I'd also point out that some of the difference is in the details. I've got a Deore rear derailleur that shifts well enough when properly tuned, but the barrel adjuster is soft, crappy plastic that's torn up enough that making adjustments is a pain in the a**.

I've got an X.9 going on as soon as I can carve out a little time to work on the bike, but even just from taking it out of the box and playing with it, I can tell it's been engineered a bit better and just feels like more of a "precision" part. Is that worth the total price difference? Maybe, maybe not, but that type of stuff is important to me.

I'm just getting back into the sport, and I'm trying to figure out what sorts of components I should be looking for in certain price ranges on certain bikes...

I want to try and find the relationship between Shimnano and SRAM c'ponents. Is the below accurate?

XTR = X.0
XT = X.9
LX = X.7
Deore = SX-5
Alivio = SX-4

thx!

Seriously, with my new bike that im getting. Im hoping to get deore components to start out. Otherwise Ill be upgrading. I really dont know anything about any component lines other than shimano, thats why thats all im getting.

Most people who buy Corvette are not into car racing.

I'm just getting back into the sport, and I'm trying to figure out what sorts of components I should be looking for in certain price ranges on certain bikes...

I want to try and find the relationship between Shimnano and SRAM c'ponents. Is the below accurate?

XTR = X.0
XT = X.9
LX = X.7
Deore = SX-5
Alivio = SX-4

thx!

X.0, Avid 7 - A class by itself (SRAM needs to make their group labelings consistent)

XTR = X.9
LX/XT = X.7
Deore = SX-5
Alivio = SX-4

Acera = junk

now to be fair, acera really isn't all that bad if it's well tuned... i'm running full acera on my hardrock, and after some fairly hard riding, it's still right as rain.

Now I run a Shimano Alivio, road equivalent to deore and I am happy.
Errrr No.
Alivio is a step lower than Deore and is a MTB gruppo
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4643/shimano7tx.jpg

Good image Raiyn, but wouldn't it have been easier to just type it out? ;)

Good image Raiyn, but wouldn't it have been easier to just type it out? ;)
Perhaps, but people seem to understand better with graphics

Goes back to my old saying that the bike doesn't make a good rider... It's the Rider who's responsible....

Deore, SRAM, whatever level, it don't really matter.... They will ALL work for what they were designed for. Some "might" last slightly longer, but mainly the paperclip weight savings is what it's all about...

After 1 or 2 mud holes, what's a few grams anyway?

Go figure.... I'm not impressed by XTR or anything "Top of the Line".

What's in a Name....

After 1 or 2 mud holes, what's a few grams anyway?

If every other component is low-end, then yes its pointless. Generally XTR is combined with other high end parts to culminate in a substantial weight saving [can be 5+ lbs]

Goes back to my old saying that the bike doesn't make a good rider... It's the Rider who's responsible....

Deore, SRAM, whatever level, it don't really matter.... They will ALL work for what they were designed for. Some "might" last slightly longer, but mainly the paperclip weight savings is what it's all about...

After 1 or 2 mud holes, what's a few grams anyway?

Go figure.... I'm not impressed by XTR or anything "Top of the Line".

What's in a Name....

But I seriously doubt that Lance Armstrong could have won 7 TdF, had he been riding a Sora groupo

But I seriously doubt that Lance Armstrong could have won 7 TdF, had he been riding a Sora groupo

I beg to differ. Maybe not Sora, but 105s :)

Errrr No.
Alivio is a step lower than Deore and is a MTB gruppo
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4643/shimano7tx.jpg

Whoops meant Tiagra...... however, does it really matter? If you want crisp ultimate shifting, throw a Short Cage derailleur on, not a medium MTB cage, but a short cage road, it works brilliantly, handles abuse and none of this crappy rapid rise stuff.

Also I reckon that many people on here would have no need/ hardly tell the difference between one level to another. If I gave you a blind test ride, on a bike equipped with, XTR, XT, X0 or X9, most would not be able to tell the difference. I honestly can feel hardly any difference while riding on a set up Deore vs XT, however it is harder and needs more adjustment to get the Deore there. I can tell the difference between XT and XTR, it is miniscule but it is there. X0 and XTR are very very similar, it is up to personal prefrence which one you use. Believe it or not but Shimano derailleurs are more user friendly :eek: you can actually get spare springs for them (if it doesn't blow up on a rock, this is often a needed replacement if shifting quality gets sloppy in the derailleur), SRAM you cannot. Also SRAM stuff costs more also. As it says in my signiture, There are two lines of SRAM, X.Plode and X.Pensive, I whole heartedly agree, I have seen many derailleurs below X.9 just blow up, quite seriously. Then X.9 and X.0 are in their own price range compaered to the equivelant Shimano. X.0 may JUST squeeze out ahead of XTR in shifting quality, but the XTR has a quicker shift.

I believe both companies have a place, both produce great components and bith will do just fine for all of your needs. What I hate is people who bash other components and have no reason too.

shimaNO is teh crap0rz, dey r evil cos they r big. Newsflash SRAM owns way more than Shimano. SRAm owns Rock Shox and Avid..... Yes Shimano are big, yes they have their problems, like rapid rise and sti shifters, but there are ways around, you can believe it or not get older style non rapid rise units :eek: Also Shimano are brining in state of the art technology, they do more than just bike components you know, plane parts and fishing reels.....

Another one which annoys me is all this bad mouthing Manipoo......
Why do you hate them! They are an excellent company, have excellent forks and, contrary to what some would have you believe, willing to help customers! If I started bad mouthing Marzocchi I would get heaps of stick for it, lay off.

Do not, I repeat, do not spread crap about companies about an issue you have had, talk to a distributor and get the problem fixed, if it broke, chances are you have abused. If you don't like the way a company does it's business or a type of feature in their componentry, don't buy it.

....you can believe it or not get older style non rapid rise units

No doubt you can. I just stocked up on 'old style' XT replacements. Is there some guarantee I am not aware of that they will be easily available in two years? 4 years?

If there is I apologize to Shimano.




If you don't like the way a company does it's business or a type of feature in their componentry, don't buy it.


Exactly

I find the higher end you go the crisper/quicker the shifts and the less tuning you have to do. Deore works fine though. Where there is a real difference though is in hubs or something like that. You'll notice a huge difference between a Deore hub and an xtr hub.

What difference exactly do you notice?

Ian

What difference exactly do you notice?

Ian

You mean between deore and xtr hubs? Deore hubs are far from smooth rolling hubs. You hold an xtr(or even xt, never had lx hubs) in your hand and give it a spin and it rolls smooth as silk for longer than I care to hold a spinning wheel. With a Deore hub, spinning it in your hands, you can feel the bearings rolling and it's kind of jerky. Not smooth at all. Won't free roll nearly as long. I have Deore hubs on my bike now and they are ok but I notice a big difference in rolling distance than with xt rear hub and Ringle front hub I had before.

I can only comment on what I have used. I started with shimano exage, then moved to DX, XT, Sachs New Success, now XTR. The weight difference is not what I considered, instead it was durability. I rode a lot off road, in mud, rain, rivers etc. crashed a lot and sometimes on the drivetrain side. So these parts took a lot of beatings. Slop in the pins where the big issues on why I replaced the deraileur. The sachs was very expensive at the time, but I figured I'll do non-shimano. Well, that POS lasted about one summer, with the bolt easily stripped. I didn't like grip shifts, since it was pretty much impossible to shift if you where riding in the wet.

Everything works pretty well at the start. As the miles really start to pile up on your bike, the differences will become more apparent.

You will eventually get what you paid for, although it might take a while to notice.

Well, I'll agree with one thing.

Acera = junk.

Either the guys at my LBS aren't quite with it, or this system is crap, because I'm having to have it adjusted a lot.

That will be my first big upgrade on my bike next spring. And a new fork.

- b

For rear derailleur, i think that deore lx, deore xt and xtr fall into same group. The shifting between 3 of them are acceptable and nothin much differs in speed. I upgraded to xtr from deore lx rear derail. Honestly, only that xtr is lighter. That's it. Unless the material is bent, malfunction or did not set up correctly, i cant see any big deal about paying so much for xtr. Yeah..im a weight watcher..

Whoops meant Tiagra...... however, does it really matter? If you want crisp ultimate shifting, throw a Short Cage derailleur on, not a medium MTB cage, but a short cage road, it works brilliantly, handles abuse and none of this crappy rapid rise stuff.

Also I reckon that many people on here would have no need/ hardly tell the difference between one level to another. If I gave you a blind test ride, on a bike equipped with, XTR, XT, X0 or X9, most would not be able to tell the difference. I honestly can feel hardly any difference while riding on a set up Deore vs XT, however it is harder and needs more adjustment to get the Deore there. I can tell the difference between XT and XTR, it is miniscule but it is there. X0 and XTR are very very similar, it is up to personal prefrence which one you use. Believe it or not but Shimano derailleurs are more user friendly :eek: you can actually get spare springs for them (if it doesn't blow up on a rock, this is often a needed replacement if shifting quality gets sloppy in the derailleur), SRAM you cannot. Also SRAM stuff costs more also. As it says in my signiture, There are two lines of SRAM, X.Plode and X.Pensive, I whole heartedly agree, I have seen many derailleurs below X.9 just blow up, quite seriously. Then X.9 and X.0 are in their own price range compaered to the equivelant Shimano. X.0 may JUST squeeze out ahead of XTR in shifting quality, but the XTR has a quicker shift.

I believe both companies have a place, both produce great components and bith will do just fine for all of your needs. What I hate is people who bash other components and have no reason too.

shimaNO is teh crap0rz, dey r evil cos they r big. Newsflash SRAM owns way more than Shimano. SRAm owns Rock Shox and Avid..... Yes Shimano are big, yes they have their problems, like rapid rise and sti shifters, but there are ways around, you can believe it or not get older style non rapid rise units :eek: Also Shimano are brining in state of the art technology, they do more than just bike components you know, plane parts and fishing reels.....

Another one which annoys me is all this bad mouthing Manipoo......
Why do you hate them! They are an excellent company, have excellent forks and, contrary to what some would have you believe, willing to help customers! If I started bad mouthing Marzocchi I would get heaps of stick for it, lay off.

Do not, I repeat, do not spread crap about companies about an issue you have had, talk to a distributor and get the problem fixed, if it broke, chances are you have abused. If you don't like the way a company does it's business or a type of feature in their componentry, don't buy it.

You could tell the difference between X.0 and XTR by all the chain slapping on the XTR system.

Go to your LBS with a digital meat scale... put deore front derailleur on it. write down the weight. put XTR front derailleur on it. write down the weight. compare. Deore is lighter.

(hearsay from LBS mechanic on group ride this week)

I am actually riding a bike from like 95 with deore DX on it all around the bike is heavy (30+) but the components are rock solid. I have problems with the front deralier but that is due to the bottom pull. I have ridden this bike on and off for the last 10 years ad the shifting is still on the mark. My Dad has a bike with alivio that he got in the late 90's that constantly needs adjustments. I got on it and rode and started to tinker with it and he said don't bother.

I think that bottom line it is all about 2 schools of thought:
1. do it for the Bling (yeah I said bling sorry)
2. buy the best you can afford to and still be able to stop at the lcs (local coffee shop) on the way back from your ride.