Road Cycling - Dura-Ace vs Ultegra vs 105 vs Tiagra, Is there REALLY that much difference?

I just posted a similar thread in the mountain bike forum (but this XTR, XT, etc...). I recently traded in a bike with some extra money and got a new mountain bike and a new road bike. Now to do this I had to settle for some lower end components. On the road bike, this meant 105's on the back but everything else being Tiagra. I was expecting some rough shifting or maybe reliability issues but was pleasantly surprised that everything works VERY smoothly. I haven't had a single issue over the last coulple hundred miles. So I asked the guy at the bike shop about this and he said that components have gotten to the point where most decent stuff works great. And that, say, a new Tiagra component works about as good as an older Ultegra or 105. And that the main difference between them is a few grams in weight. And that the reliabilty and function is generally about the same. I have seen this first hand and it makes me wonder why so many people are SO big on spending all that extra money on something like Ultegra when 105's and even Tiagra's would do it pretty much just as well. Now I understand that if you get a nice bike it will have the higher end components but other than that you would think it would'nt be so saught after.
What do you guys think? What have been your personal experiences?

I have seen this first hand and it makes me wonder why so many people are SO big on spending all that extra money on something like Ultegra when 105's and even Tiagra's would do it pretty much just as well. Because we have more money than common sense?

The New Ultegra double vs. The Dura Ace double. Weight. The new ultegra shifter feels almost identical to the dura ace shifter. 105, the difference is weight, and how the shifter feels in your hand. I personally can tel the different. But hey I would be fine with tiagra though. But I think my next is gonna be Ultegra 10 speed.

i have a 105/ultegra 9spd mix, and the only real time I wish I had something that shifts faster and smoother is when going up a super steep grade when lots of pressure is constantly on the cranks. Otherwise, 105 is smooth enough.

btw, I have the same complaints about the shimano altus group I have on my mtn. bike. Doesn't shift quick enough on steep climbs but it's still good enough. This could just be due to abuse though, since it was left outside rain or shine for a few years.

I have owned three Ultegra 9 speed equipped bikes in the past. I currently own a
Dura-Ace 9 equipped Cervelo Soloist and a 105/Tiagra mix Klein Quantam. I bought
the Klein as a temporary replacement after I broke my Seven Axiom in a low speed
crash.

I put the Dura-Ace parts off of the Seven on the Cervelo after riding the Klein
about 5,000 miles. To make a long story short I now have about 10,000 miles on
each group and the Dura-Ace is slightly crisper but not what I would call night and
day.

Based on my experience I will never go higher than 105 on any bike a I buy in the
future. For me it is not worth it based on performance. If you buy anything better
than 105 do it because it is prettier and you can be proud of it. Not because you
will get any performance advantage other than a neglible weight difference that
would never be the difference in any race I have been in.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.

One word - EGO.

55/Rad

One word - EGO.

55/Rad

Maybe, but when I am doing something a little dangerous, I feel more comfortable with the higher priced stuff. At least I gave myself a best shot with good equipment. Sometimes, small improvements make a huge difference in actual practice, even if you have to pay a lot for small improvements.

Maybe, but when I am doing something a little dangerous, I feel more comfortable with the higher priced stuff. At least I gave myself a best shot with good equipment. Sometimes, small improvements make a huge difference in actual practice, even if you have to pay a lot for small improvements.
Oh, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to me. I've got 1 bike with DA 9, 1 with Ultegra 9, 1 with Ultegra 10 and 1 with Campy Record. Believe me, it all because of the ego.

Yet my kids' Sora bike works quite well and I'd have no problem with it other than what I feel other riders would think.

I'm shallow that way.

55/Rad

Oh, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to me. I've got 1 bike with DA 9, 1 with Ultegra 9, 1 with Ultegra 10 and 1 with Campy Record. Believe me, it all because of the ego.

55/Rad


As you can see, it went from Ultegra, to DA, to Record. As suspected, the ego has grown slowly over the last couple of years.

I for one, went straight to Record. I figured, why not? Just let it all out. :D

Oh, I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to me. I've got 1 bike with DA 9, 1 with Ultegra 9, 1 with Ultegra 10 and 1 with Campy Record. Believe me, it all because of the ego.

Yet my kids' Sora bike works quite well and I'd have no problem with it other than what I feel other riders would think.

I'm shallow that way.

55/Rad

Rad, at least you're honest about this! I dig my Centaur 10 just fine. of course, ask the right campy nut and they'll claim that centaur 10 is on par with ultegra 10. not that i disagree, of course ... ;)

to the original post: i cannot wait for 105 10 speed. I think it will be a very good group that is not only more than enough for beginners but very good for enthusiasts (not pros) too.

I ride Ultegra 9, and I've tested a few bikes with Dura-Ace 9 & 10. I do feel there is a deference in stiffness when climbing or sprinting. When you stomp on the pedals, the bike leaps forward. No wasted energy. Stopping also feels much smoother and solid, which is a real confidence booster when you're bombing a big hill. As far as the shifting, I've never had a problem with my Ultegra, but my next ride will have Dura-Ace. Even if I have to sell my car to get it. :D

i have a 105/ultegra 9spd mix, and the only real time I wish I had something that shifts faster and smoother is when going up a super steep grade when lots of pressure is constantly on the cranks. Otherwise, 105 is smooth enough.

btw, I have the same complaints about the shimano altus group I have on my mtn. bike. Doesn't shift quick enough on steep climbs but it's still good enough. This could just be due to abuse though, since it was left outside rain or shine for a few years.

Shoot I have the altus stuff (7 speed) on my MTB (turning into road commuter) and for commutting it is just fine. If I was going all the time though I would like at least LX (105 equivalent in MTB).

Does anyone need anything more than tiagra... nah, (unless you NEED 180mm cranks) but they have their advantages, kind of like record to chorus to centaur to veloce. You get the point.

i have a 105/ultegra 9spd mix, and the only real time I wish I had something that shifts faster and smoother is when going up a super steep grade when lots of pressure is constantly on the cranks. Otherwise, 105 is smooth enough.

btw, I have the same complaints about the shimano altus group I have on my mtn. bike. Doesn't shift quick enough on steep climbs but it's still good enough. This could just be due to abuse though, since it was left outside rain or shine for a few years.

Check your gear change cable going to your derailleur. Pehaps a new one is a good idea including cable housing. Changed mine and now works perfectly

FWIW, I was taking to a Shimano rep today and asked what's the difference between Ultegra and DA. He said, DA has slightly better metal (accounts for price difference), the finish and the minute weight differences; otherwise the engineering design is the same.

I have a 27 year old bike that has DA. It still works flawlessy today. I have an 2004 bike also (all Ultegra).

Personally, I'm very pleased w/Ultegra. I can afford it but don't see the need to buy DA. I don't group ride or race so I really don't have anyone to impress w/DA, haha.

..rickko..

This is a great thread. Gave me a lot of perspective on components and what to look for in a first bike.

I'm getting a 105 RD put on my bike first of the week... not because I've had any issues with what's on my bike as much as because I'm getting it brand new and installed for $20. It is supposed to be better than what I have, and I figure for that price I can't go wrong.

FWIW, I had my guy at the LBS tell me in the future he probably won't go higher than 105 on his own stuff, and he races. He currently has DA/Ultegra mix. He said yes, there is a difference, but the difference in price exceeds the difference in performance.

Well I'm coming from a full 105 bike to a full Ultegra. Shifting crispness is far superior to the 105. Now is the difference because the bike is new? Or the fact that the ultegra is a better component? I don't know but I do know I like the way this new bike shifts compared to my old one.

Note that the old bike was a 2001 modeled 105 group, so even the technologies have probably changed quite a bit. I don't know, I would like to have a 2 new bikes with 105 and Ultegra side by side to compare.

i use an ultegra and d/a mix. d/a cranks, rear derailler and ultegra shifters, cassette and brakes. all 10sp. it is the best of all worlds for me. patience, and eBay helps to defray any cost, which turns out to be pennies per mile.
I paid $900 for all component mix, and after 4k miles this year, and assuming 3-5k for the next 5 years on it, that can be 20-24k. you can do the math, but it is small amts per mile of enjoyment.

i had a road bike when I stated that was all Sora componets and did well even under my (at the time) 260+ pounds.

I started racing and the parts couldn't hold up.

Right now, I run at least Ultegra under all my machines, and can feel the difference.

for my 2 cents, 105 is the best placed group on the bang for the buck curve. Above 105 and you're into rapidly diminshing returns. Below 105, and I think there is a drop off in performance and durability. For serious long term use, I think 105 is as low as I'd go. That being said I ride D/A 10 speed because I'm williing to spend more to have top end, even though I recognize it's not the most cost effective answer.

I've got a real mish mash on my new project bike. I decided to go Campy 10 speed and looked for bargains. The result is Centaur crankset, brakes and front DR, Record BB and chain, Chorus carbon shifters and rear DR, Veloce cassette. How's that for a mish mash? The decisions were purely economic. They had nothing to do with performance since all the Campy components perform very well indeed and I can't really tell them apart in actual use. All these components cost less than $600 combined and all are new except for the Record BB which has about 200 miles on it - I tend to put high value on bottom brackets. Add a free lightweight aluminum racing frameset with carbon fork that I had laying around, $55 worth of Italian alloy handlebar and stem, a $21 Italian alloy seat post, $65 Italian saddle and you have a very affordable, high performance almost Italian road bike. I have bar tape, bottle cages and pedals in my parts box so I'm not spending anything additional for them at the moment. Campy on a Tiagra budget. This will be my "beater bike" and I expect it to weigh in at well less than 19 lbs. when completed. I think it will be a great beater. The frame will be finished at the auto body shop tomorrow. I'm getting a golden yellow paint job that fades to black at the head tube. I'm looking forward to the project.

No mention really of Sora here, and I actually think I prefer the feel of my Sora shifters over my friends Ultegra. I thought about upgrading the flight deck, and I am still pondering it simply because I hate the way the thumb shifter is positioned and useless on the drops. I think Sora is much more precise than the Ultegra and 105 that I have tried. Never tried DA though. I am starting to wonder about taking apart the Sora shifter, and somehow converting the thumb shifters to operate like the shifters on 105 and up. I have been perfectly happy with my Tiagra/Sora mix, but that may be because I am still fairly new.

1500 miles on my Sora groupset this season. Works perfect. I've riden other bikes with 105 and DA, I couldn't tell a huge difference. I am a recreational rider though, no racing.

I tested a Madone SL 5.2 (Ultegra) and a Madone SL 5.9 (Dura-Ace) on the same day, and although the rear derailleur shifter for the Dura-Ace had a more defined shift or click, the Ultegra worked fine. There was a $1500 difference between the two bikes, and I couldn't really justify purchasing the 5.9 when the 5.2 gave just as nice a ride. Downshifts under load on uphills with the SL 5.2 have worked very well.

I'm usually looking at Ultegra equipped bikes since they have the requisite bling bling I'm looking for, but I've also been pretty happy with the mix of 105 and XT on my Bianchi Axis.

Like computer components, you're going to be paying a lot more for that extra 5% to 10% of performance. But hey, they have a Dura-Ace triple, so the market must want that little extra - and is willing to pay for it.

Cyclingnews had a good review (http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2005/reviews/shimano_ultegra) on Ultegra - most notably, its comparison with Dura-Ace.

No mention really of Sora here
I am still pondering it simply because I hate the way the thumb shifter is positioned
That's the reason I didn't mention it. Even if it works as well it has that different shifting mechanism that makes it less desirablt than the rest.

converting the thumb shifters to operate like the shifters on 105 and up
It's actually the Tiagra and up that have the conventional shifting mechanism. So might even consider just upgrading your flight deck to Tiagra. Then you'd also be full Tiagra. My Tiagra flight deck works flawlessly and very smoothly. Just a thought. :)

Upgrading from sora to tiagra shifters is all fine and dandy but for most of us (if not all of us) with sora shifters, we have 8-spd components and if my LBS told me correctly, there is no 8-spd tiagra shifter to upgrade to. That is the unfortunate part of having an 8-spd bike these days. Either way Im fine...it would be nice to have some smoother shifts on uphills though! BTW, if anyone knows of a way to upgrade from sora to something else with a different shifter mechanism, let me know...same w/ the front dereilleur.
~Nick

Not to mention very simply the Sora shifters with the exception of the thumb positioning feel better than any other Shimano shifters. I'd take Sora over DA if the thumb thing weren't so horrid.

My Sora stuff works fine. I've had no problems at all. Like I mentioned earlier, the real reason I'm having the 105 RD put on is because I'm getting a new one for $20. I figure if I can tell a difference, then I got a good deal. If not, it was worth a $20 try.

I know on the MTB end. The differances were that Altus had some plastic parts on the brakes and LX was all metal. Altus had a stamped steel read der cage, LX and up has aluminum. The XT rear der had ceramic bearings while LX did not. There was definate trickle down. Last years XT was often this years LX.

I havent seen as much differance in the road components. I am using Ultegra and haven't had to replace anything. If I do, it will be with more Ultegra.

You guys that have done upgrades when something is worn are really noticing the worn vs new differance more than the component upgrade.

Three DuraAce10 equipped bikes. The shifting's just fine and so is my ego. ;)

Ecxept for Sora I've tried them all out. Not too happy with the Tiagra, but from
105 I think they all are working pretty good. I've heard some complains about the
new Ultegra10 brifters though, so we're probably talking a slightly different design from DA.

I guess it's already yesterdays news, but 105 is coming in 10 spd pretty soon now as well.

My personal experience of Ultegra 9 versus DA 10 is that I find the DA to be smoother and more precise when shifting. I was always messing with the Ultegra 9 as I could never get it “just right” since the day I purchased it (maybe it was the triple, I don’t know). I haven’t had one issue with the DA 10 yet, haven’t even needed to adjust anything, even after the “break in period.” It has been flawless. Again this is just my personal experience. I have no experience with the Ultegra 10 though, which I heard is better than the 9.

My vote is: "Small Sausauge Syndrome" :eek: 105 works for me :)

bump

Umm, you know that clunking noise you hear when you shift gears on your Tiagra/Sora/105? Well, it mysteriously disappears on your Ultegra/Dura-Ace as quickly as the Benjamins from your wallet...hehe.

Umm, you know that clunking noise you hear when you shift gears on your Tiagra/Sora/105? Well, it mysteriously disappears on your Ultegra/Dura-Ace as quickly as the Benjamins from your wallet...hehe.

That lack of bumping noise will not really make you faster though, and for me, that is what really matters. Precise shifting can make a difference in HOTLYcontested group rides or races, but it will never really make much of a performance difference in day to day riding. Keep in mind that there are guys out there riding single speeds competitively in Cross and Crit races against geared bikes. In fact, I often hand my buddies their rear ends on my 1982 single speed peugeot commuter at 70 gear inches that weighs over 25 lbs (as a single speed).

On our group rides we often get well over 26 mph on the flats with some very fit newbies riding 15 year old Shimano 600 and RSX bikes who keep up no problem. If we drop them, I am convinced it is more an issue of fitness or experience (seeing and responding to the attack in a timely manner) than an issue of the bike.

I have a DA 9 equipped Giant TCR0 and love it, but my buddy got a TCR2 a year newer in the 105 version and his bike is only very slightly heavier than mine. Moreover, it rides just as nicely and shifts just as crisply if not more so. Although he is not usually as fit as me, he can hand me my butt on a good day so I am pretty sure there is minimal differences between the performance of our respective rides. I also hear the insatiable call of the ego, but if speed is the only thing that matters, other than stiff and light wheels/cranks for slightly faster climbing and accelerating; it just does not make much sense to me to answer that call. Fancy brakes and shifters do not make you fast.

Just my opinion.

Unfortunately, the first road bike I ever rode was full DA 9 (bought it from a teacher ex-racer friend at wayyy below its value). There ARE differences between ultegra/DA (i've not found the difference between those two except weight) and everything else, and they drive me nuts. I keep thinking, "this could be better".

Also, the ego boost of being a poor college student with DA is incredible.

Dura-Ace vs Ultegra vs 105 vs Tiagra, Is there REALLY that much difference?


The biggest differences between two or more functionally equivalent items usually will be the marketing hype, marketing cost and the profit margins. Still, I am clear that often higher cost items do offer performance increases and often lower cost items involve substantial shortcuts and lower quality materials.

I am riding Ultegra now. I am confident that 105 would have met my needs (or even one of the lower levels with less than 10 cogs on my cassette). But, I am an old man who works hard and I was building my dream bike. I gave some to the weight weenie in me and some just to the sense that I had earned a treat. I only hope there is a enough real-world performance difference to be the icing on my cake. I certainly concluded that the performance difference between Ultegra and Dura Ace couldn't possibly justify the price differential for me.

I am currently upgrading my 05 Giant OCR2 from a Tiagra 105 mix with a crappy Tru Vativ crank to full Dura Ace. I was going to buy a new bike but 2800 was only going to get Ultegra. With a little careful shopping I have accumulated a full 9-10 speed mix for about a thousand. Next year the frame will get upgraded and I won't have to worry what components it has on it.

on probikekit 105 group is 540 and ultegra is 660. For the extra 120 it seems worth the price.

I just bought a new bike last week (I'll post pics when it arrives), but I decided, after much anguish, to upgrade all componentry to 105.