Training & Nutrition - [Throws down bait for AnthonyG] aka the soy thread.

I've found the convoluted and random posting by you in regards to anything health as strange, especially since this is the training and nutrition thread not the black ops/fed government is trying to steal your kidneys section.

Could you please, please show me definitive proof that a people who eats in the manner that you appear to advocate actually loses weight consistently and are able to have healthy levels in their body of everything?

I just find it ironic that a significant portion of people who have removed everything you say is
mandatory for healthy living seem to be doing significantly better health and weight wise, while most of the people I know who consume a diet on par with what you have suggested, repeatedly, seem to have issues losing weight or improving their health.

So, I challenge you to conclusively show me some links outside the ones that you consistently use (are you employed there or something that makes you such an advocate for their dogma?) that shows that being a vegeterian is bad and that soy is unhealthy (outside of the Dairy Farmer's of America sites).

OK to start with the Weston A Price Foundation is not lacking in credibility. Some of you are just saying that because your uncomfortable with the information but none of you have presented any scientific evidence to refute the work of the WAPF.

http://www.westonaprice.org

The work of Dr Price was a control study. OK what's a control study?

One of the limitations of the "Scientific Method" is that its whats called "Reductionist". It can only look at 1 variable at a time so they try to eliminate all other variables and only test 1. In real life this is impossible but we believe that we can do it. In order to try and make the results as useful as possible what your supposed to do first is a "Control Study" so that you can better understand the results and that if a statistical anomaly gets thrown up you can discount it.

EDIT: OK I didn't answer what a control study is. You just look at what's before you without making any judjments or colouring it in anyway. It is what it is. Very hard to do actually.

So this is the main problem with current dietary advice. NO control study so the results are nonsensical and of course its embarrassing when some upstart like Dr Price does what they should have done in the first place and comes up with a different result.

Next point, no one here is following the dietary advice of the WAPF by default. NO ONE. Its just too hard to do and you really have to go out of your way to find grass fed meat, dairy and organic produce from mineral rich soil. You can't stick to the diet 100% if you eat out and McDonalds and Burger King are definitely OUT.

People with health issues which you think are following a WAPF diet are actually consuming a lot of refined vegetable oils and poorly processed grains which are totally off the diet.

The WAPF is in support of TRADITION. There's nothing wacky or far out about it. Its the height of conservatism.

I am a member of the WAPF now although that came after a few years in which the dietary advice of the WAPF saved my life. Seriously!

Here's some interesting reading,

http://www.azeri.org/Azeri/az_latin/manuscripts/longevity/english/longevity_english.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/ancient_dietary_wisdom.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/native_americans.html (This is the best evidence of what real "Cave Man" diet was like)

Here, see these as well, http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/index.html

I can find other sites giving various dietary advice but the importance of these WAPF references is there just studies of what traditional people truly ate. One final thing you don't just have to take my word for it. A lot of us have memories of growing up on butter and bacon. Our parents certainly did and although not everyone's diet was perfect back then they had less health issues back then up until the time they gave into politically correct diets.

OK one more, http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

Regards, Anthony

How are you guys measuring "health" and degree of "better" or "worse" levels of "health"?

How are you guys measuring "health" and degree of "better" or "worse" levels of "health"?

Good question.

On a 1 to 1 level just looking at someones face and eyes tells you a lot. Theres a lot more dark eyes and poor complexions than there used to be. The obesity epidemic. Some people used to be big because they ate a lot but not as big as they are now. Americans have never been bigger on average or eaten less animal fats on average than they do now.

My other bugbear is the ever increasing amounts of money spent on "Health". If modern healthcare was any good it would have done itself out of a job. It most certainly hasn't.

Regards, Anthony

OK, another important clarification. The WAPF doesn't say that vegetarianism is bad. Just that veganism is unhealthy. Vegetarians consuming full fat dairy and eggs can be perfectly healthy.

As to soy again traditional fermented soy foods such as Miso, Tempeh, Nato and traditionaly fremented soy sauce are OK in moderation but using modern soy milk and TVP or soy isolate isn't.

Regards, Anthony

Ok, I'll bite since I'm sitting here sipping a glass of Silk Organic Soymilk tell me exactly how I'm hurting my health. According to the label an 8 oz glass contains 7 gr of soy protein, Vitamins A, B2, & D, Potassium, Iron, Folate & Zinc, 270mg of Omega-3 & 2000 mg of Omega-6 fatty acids & 30% of the recommended daily calcium. Doesn't sound all that bad for something that is supposedly robbing my body of nutients. It also states on the label that it was made from soybeans that were not genetically engineered.

Ok, I'll bite since I'm sitting here sipping a glass of Silk Organic Soymilk tell me exactly how I'm hurting my health. According to the label an 8 oz glass contains 7 gr of soy protein, Vitamins A, B2, & D, Potassium, Iron, Folate & Zinc, 270mg of Omega-3 & 2000 mg of Omega-6 fatty acids & 30% of the recommended daily calcium. Doesn't sound all that bad for something that is supposedly robbing my body of nutients. It also states on the label that it was made from soybeans that were not genetically engineered.


Theres a difference between the theoritical levels of vitamins and minerals in a food and what your body actually absorbs from that food.

Here's a short article, http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_controversy.html

Use the back arrow button at the bottom of the article for the full gory details.

Regards, Anthony

If you two just wanted to fight, why couldn't you just do it through PM instead of inevitably dragging others in to it?

I've read most of their opinions, some I agree with & some I don't. I do find it somewhat amusing that the only "milk" they feel is fit for our consumption is raw milk from specific breeds of cows raised under certain conditions. The problem with this is that it leaves approx 95% of the population of the U.S. with nothing to drink as it just isn't readily available in most areas. Having purchased raw milk from local dairy farms back in the 1970s I can tell you that the sanitary conditions surrounding its distribution left much to be desired. Their "bring back the milk" campaign will never fly over here as long as the acreage is worth ten times as much for housing as it is for farming.

Interesting... Funny how the Japanese were much healthier 'til they got ahold of 'Western Food'. They ate lots of soy.

Been a vegetarian now for about 6 months. Been riding hard for same time. Lost 30 pounds, blood sugars in better control, feel better, look better, less allergy symptoms, breath through both nostrils when I sleep rather whichever side is up, less constipation, more energy (ask my wife), and... I don't really miss the meat and dairy. That is the weird part, I thought I would.

I'll write my retraction to all the above information as soon as my health goes to hell in a handbasket from the evil soy.

I used to farm. I tested cattle for the Dairy Herd Improvement Association. Do you know what kind of milk you get from a cow in a 5000 head dairy milked by some guy making minimum wage?

I worked on a hog farm for 4 years. I watched a sow come out of a hut with a loop of the intestines of one of her fellow pen mates. The poor thing had died and I guess pigs love the 'other white meat' too!

I just have to think of those things and I really don't have a desire to eat the stuff any more. Milk is for calves, kid goats, foals, infants, puppies and all other baby mammals.

If you two just wanted to fight, why couldn't you just do it through PM instead of inevitably dragging others in to it?

LOL, where's the drama in that?

Guys,
this is much ado about not much. I simply refuse to get upset
over pig indigestion. Call me crazy, but I have a hunch I don't eat pig feed.

Most of the other complaints also do not apply. Vegetable isoflavones are no substitute for hormones. When my wife went through menopause we tried them ALL. None worked for more than a day or two. I would also guess few of us are consuming infant formula, or have a baby's dietary needs and problems. Just a guess.

OTOH! Soy should not be your major protein source.
I have heard of vegetarian weightlifters who consumed ungodly amounts of soy protein. But I have trouble imagining that's a big segment of the population, or even that we have anyone like that
here.

Time for a little reality check. Your food is full of hormones, pesticides, fungicides, and more. Those things plants and animals produce naturally, and it's nothing to worry about. Your relatives were eating the stuff 100,000 years ago and it didn't kill them. Well, something did, but not that. Maybe a sabertooth got 'em.

I make a fruit shake every morning that has a cup of soy milk in it. It hasn't killed me. The stuff I have read by research types
tells me it isn't going to. It's good for you, in modertion. Just promise you'll never buy a Tofurkey :roflmao:

I like soy. I know it's better for me than many alternatives. I also like the research that shows that it reduces incidents of breast cancer.

I tried a Tofurkey once. It was terrible. Too much sodium. The name is funny though. Lean turkey is so much better. But, soy milk (Silk, light), soy nuts, tofu, tempah all make great additions to a healthy diet.

Late,

You are right to a point. Having been a worker in agriculture for years I know what goes into my milk when the milking machine falls of and it happens to land in the gutter. I've seen the holes cut right through them milk filters by the pieces of hay. I've seen the mastitis milk strings stuck to the milk filters.

We have to trust our bodily defenses to a point otherwise, we'd just get psychotic and go crazy and want to live in a bubble.

As for the meat, go visit a slaughter house. Good place to remember that our stomachs are full of acid and should kill most of the invaders that get on our undercooked meat.

King,

It wasn't a fight per se, I merely had been broadsided a few times by Anthony on his 'anti-soy' campaign and wanted him to finally do what he suggested, which was to come to a thread not affiliated with any other topic (read that as the typical derail).

Sorry if it came across as personal, I just wanted to give him the chance to throw all his ducks into one basket so that I could have a couple days to digest the material. A PM, while it would have removed outside influences, removes the one thing I like about this venue - outside influences. Other people's opinions are just as valid as Anthony's and I wanted to see how many other opinions there might be.

I will respond to the thread in due time, but currently I'm wrapping up two thesis papers for next week.

I've read most of their opinions, some I agree with & some I don't. I do find it somewhat amusing that the only "milk" they feel is fit for our consumption is raw milk from specific breeds of cows raised under certain conditions. The problem with this is that it leaves approx 95% of the population of the U.S. with nothing to drink as it just isn't readily available in most areas. Having purchased raw milk from local dairy farms back in the 1970s I can tell you that the sanitary conditions surrounding its distribution left much to be desired. Their "bring back the milk" campaign will never fly over here as long as the acreage is worth ten times as much for housing as it is for farming.

You have made a number of astute observations here. America is the richest country in the world yet most of you couldn't source top quality milk even though you should have a suitable income to do so. This could become an ecenomic discussion here. I think one of the WAPF points is that quality has been ripped out of our food production chains in the name of "Efficiency" and its about time some quality went back into it for the sake of our health and yes it WILL cost money. As I've "Ranted" about before the biggest hurdle to doing this is one of pride. It's too hard for us to admit that we have made a mistake in the first place and anything that attacks the sacred cow of "Efficency" has to be condemmed in the strongest terms.

I've drunk fresh unpasturized milk direct from a small farmer with a heard of Jersey cows and It was the best milk I've ever had.


You are right to a point. Having been a worker in agriculture for years I know what goes into my milk when the milking machine falls of and it happens to land in the gutter. I've seen the holes cut right through them milk filters by the pieces of hay. I've seen the mastitis milk strings stuck to the milk filters.

The WAPF supports a certification proccess for the quality and cleanliness of raw milk. Yes it will cost money and that's a cost consumers should be happy to bear.

Here's a good link that I've picked out on the Asian diet, http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html Half way through the article theres a discription of the difference between Asian soy milk and Western soy milk.

Regards, Anthony

I ride past dairies almost daily, makes me glad I dont drink that stuff. CA cows are happy cows my ass.

Been a vegetarian for almost 6 years now, first thing I noticed was how much more energy I got.

Eat what ya wanna

This may be a little off topic although it sits with my other crazy beleifs so I'll throw it in here, http://www.mercola.com/2005/sep/17/epa_employees_call_for_fluoridation_moratorium.htm

It's about the dangers of water flouridation.

Regards, Anthony

This may be a little off topic although it sits with my other crazy beleifs so I'll throw it in here, http://www.mercola.com/2005/sep/17/epa_employees_call_for_fluoridation_moratorium.htm

It's about the dangers of water flouridation.

Regards, Anthony

sigh

sigh

Hey did you give the article a look. The point is that it's not just "KOOKS" like me that are against water flouridation. The EPA union members have forced a monitorium on water flouridation.

EDIT: BTW I apoligise if I've ambushed you here as I didn't intend to. I post references because I don't expect you to just take my word for things and I figured you would read the reference before commenting. In future I will explain a bit more about what the article is about.

Regards, Anthony

... I've drunk fresh unpasturized milk direct from a small farmer with a heard of Jersey cows and It was the best milk I've ever had....

When I was young I was raised on fresh unpasteurized milk. My grandfather was a small Grade B dairy farmer. I remember going to the bulk tank ( before the cream rose and the milk was still warm from the cows), dipping my glasse in, and running back to the house to have my grandma mix in some chocolate. Oh my my but that was best tasting milk I have ever had in my life.

BUT, personally, today, considering the high bovine population and other potential sources of infection, I personally would pasteurize my milk given a choice. I feel the risks of either the cows or me picking up a contagion are just too high. It is a shame really.

I ride past dairies almost daily, makes me glad I dont drink that stuff. CA cows are happy cows my ass.

Been a vegetarian for almost 6 years now, first thing I noticed was how much more energy I got.

Eat what ya wanna

I agree. Vegan here for 4 years, but I say eat what you want. It's your body.

The WAPF doesn't say that vegetarianism is bad. Just that veganism is unhealthy.

Ha!!! This right here is where your cult loses all credibility. I always get a kick out of people claiming to be experts on subjects they have no experience with. You seem to have been seduced by the aspect of their "controlled studies". I'll give you my controlled study: Vegan for 8 years, feel better now than 10 years ago. I might take 1 sick day a year. I ride centuries, double centuries, mountain bike race, cyclocross, play soccer competitively, run long distances, etc. I certainly have no problem pleasing my girl. I know plenty of vegans in their 80's that are enjoying great health, as well as some that were raised vegan since birth and never encountered any of the problems that the likes of your cult's scare tactics seem to promise.

As for the whole soy issue: yes, you don't want to get too much of it. Yes, it seems to be an easy cop-out protein for most vegetarians due to the ease of producing it. That does not mean that it's the only protein available for us, or that all vegetarians are over doing soy intake. I keep close watch on how much soy I consume, and make sure to get a lot of other whole food proteins.

I'm not going to claim that my diet is any healthier than anyone else's, just wanted to point out the ridiculous essence of your statement that veganism is unhealthy.

When I was young I was raised on fresh unpasteurized milk. My grandfather was a small Grade B dairy farmer. I remember going to the bulk tank ( before the cream rose and the milk was still warm from the cows), dipping my glasse in, and running back to the house to have my grandma mix in some chocolate. Oh my my but that was best tasting milk I have ever had in my life.

BUT, personally, today, considering the high bovine population and other potential sources of infection, I personally would pasteurize my milk given a choice. I feel the risks of either the cows or me picking up a contagion are just too high. It is a shame really.

The Weston A Price Foundation point of view is that as long as the herd is on pasture and looked after then the risk from unpasturized milk is non-existent. If Cows are kept in confinement dairys, standing around in their own excriment and eating grains rather than grass, then yes there are issues but pasturization isn't the answer. Ban confinement dairys and send the cows back to pasture.

Regards, Anthony

why do I get the feeling I'm gonna see a headline like this in the near future?

"Hundreds Dead as Weston A. Price Cult Commits Mass Suicide"

why do I get the feeling I'm gonna see a headline like this in the near future?

"Hundreds Dead as Weston A. Price Cult Commits Mass Suicide"

Ha Ha Ha. Gee you should at least try to play nice.

Regards, Anthony

Ha Ha Ha. Gee you should at least try to play nice.

Regards, Anthony
:lol: sorry but your post before this one just gave me a mental image of that wacko from Heaven's Gate.

You could get all the protien you need being a vegetarian or vegan and never touch soy. Pinto beans, red beans, kidney beans, white beans, pinks, anasazi, lentils, chickpeas, lima, black, bolios are all excellent sources of protien and when combined with whole grains like rice, wheat and corn give a protient profile that matches the human protien need perfectly.

Large containment facilities for cattle, pigs, chickens or whatever animal are environmental threats to groundwater, animal health and human health. Do you know why the pigs in large grower/feeder operations have had their tails cut off? In confinement operations stress will cause the pigs will bite each others tails and cause infections of the CNS. Also the biomass of such operations creates chronic need for low level antibiotic feeding to these animals to keep them healthy and promote weight gain. We are creating a world of super bacteria.

I ate meat like a straight up carnivore for nearly all of my life. I loved the taste of the fat on the edges of my steak. I loved the grease dripping out of my green chile burrito. I felt like ****. For me, I feel better, look better and am not planning to change back. I haven't really missed the meat. My wife and kids still eat the stuff and I don't care if they do if they don't care that I don't. I figure they'll see how I'm doing and see that it is okay and maybe even decide to switch themselves.

You'll get no argument from me or anyone involved in the WAPF about the harm and dangers of confinement farming. We would like to see it banned and the animals put on pasture.

I haven't seen anything in WAPF literature that states that vegetarian/vegan diets are lacking in protein sources. There are two main things that the WAPF argue that vegan diets lack. 1 is vit B12 which is well enough understood that I hope no one wants to argue about. The other is real vit A which only comes from animal sources. Yes carotene's and beta-carotine's can be converted to vit A under certain circumstances but its not an efficient process and it can only be done by healthy adults.

EDIT: Here check out the Meatrix. http://www.themeatrix.com/

Regards, Anthony

All this talk of feeling better after changing your eating habits reminds me of the fact how much better I feel after I started riding bike again. No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water as far as food goes, common sense works for a large percentage of the population who have a conscious when it comes to eating.

EDIT: Here check out the Meatrix. http://www.themeatrix.com/

Regards, Anthony

Great link Anthony, thanks for posting it. Lots & lots of good info available from their homepage. My wife & I both enjoy eating meat but have been looking for sources of healthier meat then what we are offered in the supermarkets.

I rode bikes for several years prior to changing my diet. Didn't lose much weight, still felt like **** and changing the old diet plus the bike riding has seemed to really help. Every time I have eaten meat since I have sworn off of it six months ago (which is 4 times) I get all stuffed up in my sinuses for about 12 hours. Nothing scientific, just my experience.

(Can't help this.)

http://www.mercola.com/2005/sep/17/epa_employees_call_for_fluoridation_moratorium.htm

It's about the dangers of water flouridation."Have you ever seen a commie drink a glass of water? ... Vodka. That's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?"