Bicycle Mechanics - How my LBS screwed me

I have this old Schwinn road bike- an early 80's era Voyager, I think. I bought it second-hand earlier this summer. About a month ago, I popped both tires on the way to work. Oh well, **** happens. I take into the shop nearest work, which was Kozy's Cyclery, on Erie (in Chicago). I was just going to have them patch the tubes or replace them altogether while I was at work. But when I get there, the guy at the service desk says "Sure, I could replace those tubes, but if you really want to avoid popping tires, you should buy these phat tires." The tires, which I bought, are Specialized Armadillos, featuring Kevlar. Nice tires.

The tires are rated at 140 psi. Today I go and use another shop's nice pump, and the tires were inflated to no more than 80. I pump them up to 120, which I think is reasonable. Not 140, but pretty good. It's hard to pump to 140. I ride around for about twenty minutes, running some errands. I come out of best buy, and Blam! the front tube is popped. I didn't hear it go Blam! but I'm sure it did. Again, sucks, but **** happens. As I walk the bike home, all of a sudden the rear wheel starts dragging really bad. I move it about another 2 inches, and then BLAM! This one I did hear, and it was loud. Both tires. Crippled bike.

So I take the wheels into another LBS, this time Johnny Sprockets, on Broadway. Good shop. They reveal to me the whole story, and this is where you'll hear about how Kozy's screwed me. The wheels are old Shimanos, 27 inches. While nearly all rims these days have a little lip that holds the bead of the tire in, these wheels don't- they are just straight vertical, no lip. So when I inflated them to close the recommended PSI, they bulged out of the tire and BLAMMO!

I go into another Kozy's, this time the one on Halsted, near Wrigley Field. I explain the story, how I paid over $100 for the new tires and installation, how they never told me they would never fit my wheels right. All I want them to do is replace the tires with ones that will work, or put the money I spent on the Armadillos towards a new set of wheels. But wouldn't you know it, it's a Sunday, and the manager won't be back until Tuesday. But even when he/she comes in, since I need 27 inch wheels, they'll have to order them. It will take another two weeks for them to come. "They're an old English size", says the mechanic, despite the fact that it says Shimano right on the wheel.

So, we'll see. If they give any kind of **** when I go back on Tuesday I'll just return the $1000 Cannondale R500 I bought there two weeks ago.

The initial shop inflated them to 80 and they would have worked that way. You screwed the pooch.

^^^yeah, but why recommed $100 tires that go to 140 if you have hookless rims that cant take more than 80. If the same guy said 27" is an old english size, it sounds like a case of over-eager and newbie-wet-behind-the-ears bike-geekery to me.

and also, Sydney, why conflate beastiality ("screwing the pooch") with overinflating tires? is this a glimpse into your veil of enigma?? what are the hidden meanings here?...

^^^yeah, but why recommed $100 tires that go to 140 if you have hookless rims that cant take more than 80. If the same guy said 27" is an old english size, it sounds like a case of over-eager and newbie-wet-behind-the-ears bike-geekery to me.Well actually, I have 27" tires with both hi and low max pressure recommendations,the hi being for hooked rims, and stated on the sidewall. Now lets assume the shop noted the hookless rims,and that was the reson for the lower inflation pressure. Maybe they should have warned the guy,but how do they know or not know what he knows about his equipemnt? Maybe his first go round of popping tubes was because the tires blew off due to overinflation? Sometimes ya gotta leran the hard way if you don't know about some of this stuff.

alls I'm saying is that armadillos seem like overkill. Its like putting a Chris King headset on a huffy

^^^...That's just nonsense.Armadillos can go on any bike ridden in a tough enviroment if one wants to avoid or have fewer flats.

No its not nonsense, Mr Pooch Screwer. Not getting flats is a matter of keeping your tires properly inflated, and luck. I've ridden around on the same pyramid 700x25s for hears with harldy any flats, because I keep them inflated properly. Sure, your likelihood of getting flats may reduce to near zero, but these tires cost $100!!! If a bike that is not worth that much on its own!!

Maybe they should have warned the guy,but how do they know or not know what he knows about his equipemnt?

I think they definitely should have warned him that the max inflate pressure was less for his configuration than that printed on the tire they sold him. The fact that he's taking his bike to the shop to get tubes replaced is a pretty good clue as to what he knows about his equipment.

No its not nonsense, Mr Pooch Screwer. Not getting flats is a matter of keeping your tires properly inflated, and luck. I've ridden around on the same pyramid 700x25s for hears with harldy any flats, because I keep them inflated properly. Sure, your likelihood of getting flats may reduce to near zero, but these tires cost $100!!! If a bike that is not worth that much on its own!!Just more nonsense. I use good tires,properly inflated and many have kevlar protection and still get flats. Armadillos a known to be relatively bulletproof.sydney only uses em on a beater because they are heavy and ride bad.There is more to flats than just proper inflation and luck..... Did someone twist the posters arm or hold a gun to his head? :rolleyes:

The initial shop inflated them to 80 and they would have worked that way. You screwed the pooch.

Perhaps, but they should have told me why they were underinflated. They can't assume I'm going to know never to inflate my tires properly.

Perhaps, but they should have told me why they were underinflated. They can't assume I'm going to know never to inflate my tires properly.

Sydney has it absolutely right this time, They didn't "underinflate" your tires, they inflated them correctly. You overinflated them based on the rims you have. Further, they didn't assume you knew what you were doing, they did the job correctly and they couldn't be aware you would do the wrong thing after they finished.

Basically, you learned a cheap lesson.

I think they definitely should have warned him that the max inflate pressure was less for his configuration than that printed on the tire they sold him. The fact that he's taking his bike to the shop to get tubes replaced is a pretty good clue as to what he knows about his equipment.

It was during the day, while I was at work, and I needed to ride it home. I know how to change tubes, thanks. I just didn't know I had hookless rims- I bought the bike second-hand and hadn't had to change anything yet.

Sydney has it absolutely right this time, They didn't "underinflate" your tires, they inflated them correctly. You overinflated them based on the rims you have. Further, they didn't assume you knew what you were doing, they did the job correctly and they couldn't be aware you would do the wrong thing after they finished.

Basically, you learned a cheap lesson.

You're right, now I know. But still, they didn't say anything about it- all they had to do was say "remember to inflate them to 80".

Are hookless rims unusual these days?
Is it safe to ride tires that are inflated less than the rated pressure? (road bike) Newbie questions.

I see both sides of this one (and usually I'm an opinionated MoFo). Find the manager, explain your situation calmly, see what they'll do to make you happy.

Hold off on trying to shove the R500 down their throats.

Report back to us.

Did I say "calmly?"

alls I'm saying is that armadillos seem like overkill.

Not really, Armadillos don't exactly show up on 5k race bikes. They are a cheap training/beater tire. I was picking them up for $2 last month.

ha, yeah, that's what I'll do. Anyway, they know I love the R500. Made in the USA!

You're right, now I know. But still, they didn't say anything about it- all they had to do was say "remember to inflate them to 80".

Are hookless rims unusual these days?
Is it safe to ride tires that are inflated less than the rated pressure? (road bike) Newbie questions.

Sorry if I sounded uncharitable. The shop did the right thing but you have a good point that they should have told you why.

Hookbead rims are almost universal on any decent quality bike these days and hookless rims are pretty much limited to much older rims. My 1985 Bridgestone also had 27" wheels but had hookbead rims.

Yes, it's safe to ride on tires inflated below the maximum sidewall pressure. The only possible problem with serious underinflation is the possibility of "pinch flats" i.e. double punctures that occur if the tire hits a pothole, etc. hard enough to push it against the rim. The tube is trapped between the tire and rim and sustains two close together punctures. For obvious reasons these are also called "snakebite" flats. Unless you are very heavy or using tires smaller than 27x1" 80 psi should be enough.

Not really, Armadillos don't exactly show up on 5k race bikes. They are a cheap training/beater tire. I was picking them up for $2 last month.
Damn, where do you get them for $2??? I want some...

Damn, where do you get them for $2??? I want some...

right...

Check your math- sounds like the OP rode an entire month without topping off the air- and a month later they were at 80 psi. Who knows what they originally were pumped up to? Maybe even as high as 100

Sorry, but I have to side with the customer on this one. I've only been doing the retail thing for about 3 weeks now, but Kozy's screwed up. We had a charity ride 2 weeks ago, so everyone was in getting new tires for their bikes, and I probably sold 20 tires in 1 Saturday. Our policy is to discuss tire size, rim size, pressure, and tube size before handing over the goods. It only takes 2 minutes to go over those things before ringing up the sale.

He went in to get flats fixed, and Kozy's was eager to sell him some new tires too. The bike was there, so they had no reason not to explain why he got 2 flats, and what the correct pressure for the Armadillos was on his application. Labor cost for a puncture repair at our shop is $26. Yup, $26 to swap a tube. But you can be sure that the customer gets an explanation as to why he got a flat, and how it could have possibly been avoided. Of course, our mechanic gives the bike a quick going over to see if there's anything else that may need service too. The point is that this guy got sold tires, without any service.

Is the $26 Australian or USD?

$26 !! Holy crap! Have you got a list of your shop pricing? I would like to hang it next to our price list.

$26 !! Holy crap! Have you got a list of your shop pricing? I would like to hang it next to our price list.
I guess you won't hear anymore "my lbs ripped me off" rants. ;)

For one you guys are jumping all ove rthis guy for not knowing he had hookless rims. As a retail worker all my life in one shape or another, it was the bike stores responsibility to notify the customer that these tires were not really made for his bike but will work if he does this. They didn't and that makes this theier fault. They can "assume" all they want but that makes it thier fault. If I sell a car to the next joe average that walks in off the street and I don't do my job of telling him what he needs to know and he kills someone else or himself, who's fault is it and who get their a$$ sued off? That would be me for not explaining the product to the customer to my full knowledge. It is the bike stores responsibilty to inform the customer not to take his money and say good luck as the snicker.
Stacey

ONly two guys gave him a hard time. sydney and Hillrider. Hillrider amended his statement six posts later. Most posters were in agreement that the shop should have told him not to pump the tires up to high.

ONly two guys gave him a hard time. sydney and Hillrider. Hillrider amended his statement six posts later. Most posters were in agreement that the shop should have told him not to pump the tires up to high.

And plenty of people know to take Sydney with a grain of salt and 2 aspirin.


Is the $26 Australian or USD?

AU$. That is our currency over here, obviously. You guys don't know how good it is in the states. That's $26 to install the $9 tube.

It was during the day, while I was at work, and I needed to ride it home. I know how to change tubes, thanks. I just didn't know I had hookless rims- I bought the bike second-hand and hadn't had to change anything yet.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything about your actually knowledge or ability...
My point was really just that they should have told you. Especially when the issue has to do with your bikes primary piece of safety equipment. Good thing they blew in the parking lot instead of while you were in a decent at 30mph!

AU$. That is our currency over here, obviously. You guys don't know how good it is in the states. That's $26 to install the $9 tube.
Ouch. That's like $20.

Edit: The $20 refers to just the labor charge for changing the tube, not the labor charge + the price of the tube.

We get $15.30, on bike, and that includes the tube, lesson on how to remove/install wheel, remove /install tire, how to find a sharp or bad rim strip, and valve alignment ettiquite. Bring in just the wheel and it is $8.30

Kudos to the original poster for commuting to work on a bike!!
If the store is guilty of not informing you that you should not attempt to inflate these tires to the max pressure on your rims, for that maybe they owe you a new tube. But that is all they should owe, your threat to take a bike back you purchased on a seperate occasion is stupid and baseless and why would they credit you for the tires towards new wheels? Wouldn't the whole point of getting new wheels be based on your ability to use these tires???

It's odd to me that they'd sell you the wrong size of tire, especially when the correct size of tire is available. Well, more than odd, irresponsible. That shop would've been in deep trouble if one of your blowouts happened on a fast downhill, or crossing a busy intersection, or basically if you had wrecked and sustained any injury. If they're not going to sell and install the proper parts, in the proper way, they damn well should inform their customers that they aren't. It's one thing to bodge fixes and use less-than perfectly compatible parts when working on an outdated or nonstandard bike, but when correct parts are available, it's dishonest and dangerous.

It was probably not the wrong size at all (a 700c simply wouldn't fit), and it is perfectly safe to use a wire beaded tire like the armadillo on a non-hook beaded rim, as long as it is not inflated too high.

I would think that an apology from the shop and replacing the blown tubes would be the minimum redress for the distress and inconvenience that their oversight caused.

For those of you who mentioned shop prices on tube relpacements, does that include the tube, or possibly a new hub?? I saw a "flat proofing" service at a shop for 40ish (seemed high), but I remember that including slime, tube, strips, labor, etc.
I was thinking about it and I'm not sure I've ever paid a shop to replace a tube. Maybe I did, not knowing about it, when I had a wheel built.
As for the instant situation, I wouldn't do any more business with a shop that didn't at least do the quick labor for free, with at least an explanation of the problem and maybe even a "sorry we didn't tell you," even if they wanted to charge you for the tubes (discount?). This is why I like to conduct small business with new shops first, like buying cleats, or ordering a new light battery before plunking down $ for a new bike. I can't imagine how stupid the shop owner/EE must be to risk losing the business of a bike buyer over the cost of a tube.
In 92, I went to a LBS, bought a $1200 hardtail Spec. Stump Jumper, bent the seat post in one ride, went back, they said they would send it to Spec but couldn't help me otherwise. I bought a new post. Spec came back, said bad post. In the meantime, I haven't been back to the shop. I'm like that.
Adam

In the US, I was used to watching my LBS charge anywhere from $5-10 for a puncture repair. Sometimes they only charged for the tube, other times it was the tube and a few bucks to install it, while the customer waited. Here, it's the $26, plus the $9 tube, and they pretty much won't touch it on a weekend except under very special circumstances.

The difference seems to be that Americans buy the item and want it installed right away, with no labor charge. Australians seem to accept the fact that it will get done when it gets done, and most things rarely get done for free. Quite an eye opener.

If somebody's too clueless to know how to fix a flat tire themselves, they deserve to pay through the nose. When I used to do electrical work, we used to have rich idiots call us to change lightbulbs, and we laughed all the way to the bank. Nothing wrong with that.

If somebody's too clueless to know how to fix a flat tire themselves, they deserve to pay through the nose. When I used to do electrical work, we used to have rich idiots call us to change lightbulbs, and we laughed all the way to the bank. Nothing wrong with that.

I'll tell that to my 90 year-old, one-legged, vision-impaired, cycling Grandmother and I'm sure she'll agree with you.
;) Just joking...but you get my point?

I'll tell that to my 90 year-old, one-legged, vision-impaired, cycling Grandmother and I'm sure she'll agree with you.
;) Just joking...but you get my point?She'll get the senior discount, get half price on cranks, and if she's only got one eye, the bill will only look half as big.

ONly two guys gave him a hard time. sydney and Hillrider. Hillrider amended his statement six posts later. Most posters were in agreement that the shop should have told him not to pump the tires up to high.Go read post #5 again.

I stand corrected. Both posters amended their statements.

Sometimes ya gotta leran the hard way if you don't know about some of this stuff.

I agree, been there and done it myself. The more expensive the mistake the better the lesson. You forget a $5 mistake way faster than a $500 mistake.


Tim

ooh. interesting. i came over to amend a thread i used quite a while ago to ask about fitting the new kevlars on my 76 korean special. i was more concerned that the exact sizing for the tire (26 x 1/8") had evolved over time, or that the materials were tighter, because i have a heck of a time getting the tire over the rim, and thought i was causing pinch flats every time. in comparison to my 700c roadie tires, this thing is a bear. i just sucked it up. when the tubes literally POPPED after i'd consulted 2x with the lbs to make sure on the tire size, i continued to think i was pinching the tubes on installation. apparently, i just was the least careful person ever, and kept on messing it up.

a few tries later (as many tubes as i could afford each week) i finally got around to taking the whole wheel/tire/tube spiel down to the shop where i get a club discount, and throwing the things at them with an explanation. lo, the mech told me, with these old rims, the tubes squeeze out, and you need to underinflate them in case you move on from pinch flats to just blowing out the tubes.

well, freakin' A. here i'd been gingerly pumping up the tubes to 40 or so, then waiting for a hiss, letting it sit, then pumping them up to the 80 psi shown on the sidewall. ready to go, and yay, no hissing! 20 minutes later, i'd be futzing around the apartment, and BLAM! uhhh...well, shocker, i was blowing the tubes!

2nd shop charged me $US5 per wheel for the labor. better them than me with those stupid tight-fit tires.

I'm enrolled in the same School of Hard Knocks as you, bvancouv: Armadillos on Old-Style non-Clinching Rims 101. Here's the "Catch-22." Armadillos ask for pretty high PSIs, but the non-clinching rims are high-PSI challenged, so one is tempted to go lower than the minimum on the 'dillo. Here's the catch: Armadillos can have a problem with delaminating. See my thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=130361) - "Any Issues with Armadillo Tires?" John E wrote: "I had a pair of Armadillo 700Cx28s on the PKN-10. If you don't maintain high pressure (circa 100PSI) at all times, the sidewalls break down prematurely." So, here you and I are, with our old-style wheels with practically incompatible tires on them. My other thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=139266), pursuing a flat caused by dopey old-style wheels is "Band-Aids and Electrical Tape in my Front Rim." Have mercy!

bvancouv, talk to the manager of the screw-up LBS, be nice and see what he can do.
Later if needed go back with your lawyer. This is a huge screwup by any professional shop's standards, if they want top remain in business. What else did they do, white out the recommended psi on the sidewalls?

This would be the equivalent of serving obviously bad food in a restaurant and insisting that the server only asked you to eat a little, not the whole dish.

OK, wow, thanks, everyone for your feedback. Here is what I'm going to do tomorrow:

I'm going to go to the shop that did the initial work for me. I'm going to explain the situation, as I understand it. (calmly) Which is that while I could have used these tires if they were inflated properly (ie well below the recommended PSI), they didn't tell me that. I mean, we had like a ten minute conversation when I picked the bike up about how much I like my old bike, how I was commuting on it, how he thought the tires would last for years and years and all that. All the while he had already 'underinflated' the tires; he had to have known to inflate them like that! BUTTTT now Yamacraw piped up and told me that Armadillas can fall apart if they're not fully inflated, I really can't use these tires on my wheels.

This morning, I was just going to ask them to replace the tubes (which I could do myself, of course, but they should be penalized somehow) and recommend the right PSI. But NOW that I know that the tires will fall apart, they're going to have to either a) exchange these tires for some normal tires that won't fall apart and refund the difference, or b) apply the $100 I spent on all the previous work (tires, tubes, labor- I know it's a lot but it was a downtown shop and I was at work- they had me at their mercy) towards a whole new wheelset, for which I can use the Armadillos. Obviously I prefer B- you should see these wheels- they could have been fished out of a pond. (just kidding- they're just old).

Luckily I was just tooling around town when this happened. Just think what kind of a thread this would be if I had been going fast, in traffic, or downhill- it would have started like "Any good lawyers down for suing and bankrupting my LBS?"

[snip]Later if needed go back with your lawyer. [snip]

I can only hope you're joking.

I can only hope you're joking.

Nope, can't joke about these things. Would he only be taken seriously if he'd cracked his head on the pavement?

OK, wow, thanks, everyone for your feedback. Here is what I'm going to do tomorrow:

I'm going to go to the shop that did the initial work for me. I'm going to explain the situation, as I understand it. (calmly) Which is that while I could have used these tires if they were inflated properly (ie well below the recommended PSI), they didn't tell me that. I mean, we had like a ten minute conversation when I picked the bike up about how much I like my old bike, how I was commuting on it, how he thought the tires would last for years and years and all that. All the while he had already 'underinflated' the tires; he had to have known to inflate them like that! BUTTTT now Yamacraw piped up and told me that Armadillas can fall apart if they're not fully inflated, I really can't use these tires on my wheels.

This morning, I was just going to ask them to replace the tubes (which I could do myself, of course, but they should be penalized somehow) and recommend the right PSI. But NOW that I know that the tires will fall apart, they're going to have to either a) exchange these tires for some normal tires that won't fall apart and refund the difference, or b) apply the $100 I spent on all the previous work (tires, tubes, labor- I know it's a lot but it was a downtown shop and I was at work- they had me at their mercy) towards a whole new wheelset, for which I can use the Armadillos. Obviously I prefer B- you should see these wheels- they could have been fished out of a pond. (just kidding- they're just old).

Luckily I was just tooling around town when this happened. Just think what kind of a thread this would be if I had been going fast, in traffic, or downhill- it would have started like "Any good lawyers down for suing and bankrupting my LBS?"


a good plan. try to get B