becnal
09-19-05, 12:09 AM
Why has this forum suddenly become the 'Oil Free' rant list?
View Full Version : Living Car Free has become Living Oil Free
lilHinault
09-19-05, 12:19 AM
I've noticed this too ...... some of these threads really ought to go into the Politics forum. We want people who want to know the practical nuts and bolts of living w/o a car to feel welcome here and get good advice, or if it's from me advice anyway! Not feel like they entered the student dining hall and accidentally sat down at the "political debate" table lol.
I'm not a mod so, hopefully a mod seeing this nudges some of the threads over into Politics.
I'm not a mod so, hopefully a mod seeing this nudges some of the threads over into Politics.
mpop
09-19-05, 12:41 AM
I would say part of it, is that there are very very few that are car free for non-political reasons, I am one of the few that am car free for non-political reasons. Many that are car free for political reason are doing it because they are against the car cultrue, and think cars should be outlawed, I don't agree with them there.
Juha
09-19-05, 12:56 AM
It's the same problem as with some threads in Advocacy & Safety. It's only natural that some of the issues discussed in these two forums will border very closely to politics. If you feel a thread is "too" political, please report it (the "SPAM!" button) to us mods and we'll look into it.
--J, a Forum Mod
--J, a Forum Mod
lauren
09-19-05, 06:23 AM
I'm car free for the financial benefits, and I don't post here anymore (barely read it, just happened to see this). In my experience anyone doing it for non-political reasons is slowly run off. Especially if you are too busy to devote tons of time to what could otherwise be quick errands. I'm a grad student and need to pick up time sensitive samples from 40 miles away. It just isn't going to happen.
SamHouston
09-19-05, 06:26 AM
Only a few, very very few think cars should be outlawed. They think they should be more restricted and that society should cease to develop around the car and work to undo some of the damage already done.
As far as living oil free...they're dreaming. They'd have to give up cycling to do that, and find running shoes with cork or leather soles for getting to work. Car free is a tremendous step, let's not go nuts. Petro has many practical beneficial properties and the real problem is our reliance on it and the glut of our societies. We could have lots of nifty petro products and not damage our enviroment or cause political upheaval over oil if we work on car-free and renewable energy.
As far as living oil free...they're dreaming. They'd have to give up cycling to do that, and find running shoes with cork or leather soles for getting to work. Car free is a tremendous step, let's not go nuts. Petro has many practical beneficial properties and the real problem is our reliance on it and the glut of our societies. We could have lots of nifty petro products and not damage our enviroment or cause political upheaval over oil if we work on car-free and renewable energy.
pedex
09-19-05, 07:27 AM
You can be car free and still use oil. For every calorie consumed from food it costs 5-15 calories worth of petroleum to produce unless you grow and process all your own food the old fashioned way.
jamesdenver
09-19-05, 08:14 AM
i like flying small planes, so must use gas and oil for that. i also ride the bus
filtersweep
09-19-05, 08:59 AM
Why has this forum suddenly become the 'Oil Free' rant list?
You would have to buy absolutely nothing for that to be the case- last I checked, petroleum fuel almost all distrubution networks for food, consumer items, pretty much everything...
You would have to buy absolutely nothing for that to be the case- last I checked, petroleum fuel almost all distrubution networks for food, consumer items, pretty much everything...
karmical
09-19-05, 09:38 AM
i guess i don't take things too seriously because i have not read any of those oil/gas threads at all.
living carfree to me has nothing to do with with oil or gas to me, i simply do it because i enjoy doing it, and it works for me right now as it has done for the past 4yrs or so, cause to tell you the truth i tend to forget exactly when it was.
living carfree to me has nothing to do with with oil or gas to me, i simply do it because i enjoy doing it, and it works for me right now as it has done for the past 4yrs or so, cause to tell you the truth i tend to forget exactly when it was.
___
09-19-05, 10:54 AM
I've noticed the increasingly dogmatic turn that this forum has taken also -- I hope it can go back to folks just sharing tips/ideas about how to maneuver through western society w/o being shackled to a cage regardless of their "politics".
karmical
09-19-05, 11:17 AM
I've noticed the increasingly dogmatic turn that this forum has taken also -- I hope it can go back to folks just sharing tips/ideas about how to maneuver through western society w/o being shackled to a cage regardless of their "politics".
one of the reasons i had stopped really spending anytime here lately, but it wasn't like i was going to report/or tell on anyone, i simply just wouldn't see any topics of intrest and would just go on to somewhere else and hope that topics of intrest would return and the others would grow tired of their stuff and go elsewhere...
if i offend anyone its not my intent, but there is a political forum that would welcome most of this oil/car free better than thou bs...but to tell you the truth, its kind of funny, now that i read through a couple...
one of the reasons i had stopped really spending anytime here lately, but it wasn't like i was going to report/or tell on anyone, i simply just wouldn't see any topics of intrest and would just go on to somewhere else and hope that topics of intrest would return and the others would grow tired of their stuff and go elsewhere...
if i offend anyone its not my intent, but there is a political forum that would welcome most of this oil/car free better than thou bs...but to tell you the truth, its kind of funny, now that i read through a couple...
folder fanatic
09-19-05, 12:16 PM
"To each his/her own." I for one do not wish to see cars completely eliminated. I think what most cyclists need is their own space on the road and not pushed off by a tital wave of cars coming at you from all sides.
jabowker
09-19-05, 12:38 PM
Actually glad to see that others are thinking the same way I am, I've got a car, don't see being able to get rid of it in the forseeable future but sure am happy to see any tips on ways to reduce the amount I use it. The religious anti-oil stuff is tiring though.
AlanK
09-19-05, 03:12 PM
Only a few, very very few think cars should be outlawed. They think they should be more restricted and that society should cease to develop around the car and work to undo some of the damage already done.
Exactly. This is my whole argument exactly. Autos do have there place, but North American society should stop building itself around cars. With a few exceptions, autos should be used for occasions only - camping, or other out-of-the-way activities for which other means of transportation aren't practical.
The only people who should use them as part of a daily commute are those haul equipment as part of their job (construction, housekeeping, deliver, etc.) It's ridiculously inefficient to used 1500pds+ of equipment to transport 100-200 pds of person.
Exactly. This is my whole argument exactly. Autos do have there place, but North American society should stop building itself around cars. With a few exceptions, autos should be used for occasions only - camping, or other out-of-the-way activities for which other means of transportation aren't practical.
The only people who should use them as part of a daily commute are those haul equipment as part of their job (construction, housekeeping, deliver, etc.) It's ridiculously inefficient to used 1500pds+ of equipment to transport 100-200 pds of person.
ViciousCycle
09-19-05, 06:23 PM
For every calorie consumed from food it costs 5-15 calories worth of petroleum to produce unless you grow and process all your own food the old fashioned way.
There's a parking lot I often cycle/walk past that a neighbor tells me used to be a Victory Garden. It amazes me to think that those gardens use to provide a substantial amount of food. I could see such things returning some day...
There's a parking lot I often cycle/walk past that a neighbor tells me used to be a Victory Garden. It amazes me to think that those gardens use to provide a substantial amount of food. I could see such things returning some day...
Guest
09-19-05, 08:00 PM
Well, there's only one thread that specifically deals with being oil free in the Living Car Free forum. There should only be one. If there are others, let me know so we can merge.
If everyone's ranting in one thread, what's the problem? They have to go somewhere.
Koffee
If everyone's ranting in one thread, what's the problem? They have to go somewhere.
Koffee
carless
09-19-05, 09:48 PM
Why has this forum suddenly become the 'Oil Free' rant list?
A rant would be things you judge not appropriate, or interesting? I would challenge you to move the discussion in a way you find more useful.
A rant would be things you judge not appropriate, or interesting? I would challenge you to move the discussion in a way you find more useful.
carless
09-19-05, 10:09 PM
I've noticed this too ...... some of these threads really ought to go into the Politics forum. We want people who want to know the practical nuts and bolts of living w/o a car to feel welcome here and get good advice, or if it's from me advice anyway! Not feel like they entered the student dining hall and accidentally sat down at the "political debate" table lol.
I'm not a mod so, hopefully a mod seeing this nudges some of the threads over into Politics.
If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your car-free lifestyle here. Your point that politics are not part of the topic and more juvenile than mechanical issues- mirrors your interest's. Without dissent you can't have a forum, just an eopinions/ product ratings list with helpful hints.
Any discussion of bicycles and transportation begins with the car. They don't have a bike-free forum.
I'm not a mod so, hopefully a mod seeing this nudges some of the threads over into Politics.
If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your car-free lifestyle here. Your point that politics are not part of the topic and more juvenile than mechanical issues- mirrors your interest's. Without dissent you can't have a forum, just an eopinions/ product ratings list with helpful hints.
Any discussion of bicycles and transportation begins with the car. They don't have a bike-free forum.
carless
09-19-05, 10:21 PM
I would say part of it, is that there are very very few that are car free for non-political reasons, I am one of the few that am car free for non-political reasons. Many that are car free for political reason are doing it because they are against the car culture, and think cars should be outlawed, I don't agree with them there.
First, how about a poll, I'd be interested to know what people think. Second there are many reasons to not use a car, it is dismissive to lump "them" into any group so easily. Third, your either for it or against it is a false dichotomy, many shades of gray exist: you can be against the car culture and allow that vehicles are necessary.
First, how about a poll, I'd be interested to know what people think. Second there are many reasons to not use a car, it is dismissive to lump "them" into any group so easily. Third, your either for it or against it is a false dichotomy, many shades of gray exist: you can be against the car culture and allow that vehicles are necessary.
carless
09-19-05, 10:34 PM
It's the same problem as with some threads in Advocacy & Safety.
Advocacy is politics.
It's only natural that some of the issues discussed in these two forums will border very closely to politics. If you feel a thread is "too" political, please report it (the "SPAM!" button) to us mods and we'll look into it.
--J, a Forum Mod
If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your car-free lifestyle here not- If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your bike here. This distinction is important because life without a car is not purchased, commercialized, encouraged or even acknowledged by many people.
Advocacy is politics.
It's only natural that some of the issues discussed in these two forums will border very closely to politics. If you feel a thread is "too" political, please report it (the "SPAM!" button) to us mods and we'll look into it.
--J, a Forum Mod
If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your car-free lifestyle here not- If your only mode of transportation is your bike, discuss your bike here. This distinction is important because life without a car is not purchased, commercialized, encouraged or even acknowledged by many people.
carless
09-19-05, 10:43 PM
I'm car free for the financial benefits, and I don't post here anymore (barely read it, just happened to see this). In my experience anyone doing it for non-political reasons is slowly run off.
I have never read disparging comments about why people do or don't use a car. I have read disagreemnets and once some coarse language. I would suggest your reading the post's and don't find them interesting, yet fail to post subjects or ideas you like to see.
Especially if you are too busy to devote tons of time to what could otherwise be quick errands. I'm a grad student and need to pick up time sensitive samples from 40 miles away. It just isn't going to happen.
You need a car.
I have never read disparging comments about why people do or don't use a car. I have read disagreemnets and once some coarse language. I would suggest your reading the post's and don't find them interesting, yet fail to post subjects or ideas you like to see.
Especially if you are too busy to devote tons of time to what could otherwise be quick errands. I'm a grad student and need to pick up time sensitive samples from 40 miles away. It just isn't going to happen.
You need a car.
carless
09-19-05, 10:45 PM
i guess i don't take things too seriously because i have not read any of those oil/gas threads at all.
living carfree to me has nothing to do with with oil or gas to me, i simply do it because i enjoy doing it, and it works for me right now as it has done for the past 4yrs or so, cause to tell you the truth i tend to forget exactly when it was.
Your stoned, admit it.
living carfree to me has nothing to do with with oil or gas to me, i simply do it because i enjoy doing it, and it works for me right now as it has done for the past 4yrs or so, cause to tell you the truth i tend to forget exactly when it was.
Your stoned, admit it.
carless
09-19-05, 11:08 PM
I've noticed the increasingly dogmatic turn that this forum has taken also -- I hope it can go back to folks just sharing tips/ideas about how to maneuver through western society w/o being shackled to a cage regardless of their "politics".
By dogmatic you mean- unyielding, argumentative, postulating stringent theories, or just boring, not in your comfort zone, hopelessly complex, and not enough like you. Do you have sidewalks on every street, wide road shoulders and mass transit? How much of your tax dollars went to Boston for the "Big Dig"
Not acknowledging it, or claiming that's political, would be great in a Bike- free forum.
"shackled to a cage"
By dogmatic you mean- unyielding, argumentative, postulating stringent theories, or just boring, not in your comfort zone, hopelessly complex, and not enough like you. Do you have sidewalks on every street, wide road shoulders and mass transit? How much of your tax dollars went to Boston for the "Big Dig"
Not acknowledging it, or claiming that's political, would be great in a Bike- free forum.
"shackled to a cage"
SamHouston
09-19-05, 11:08 PM
You need a car.
I guess you might out in the sticks. Too bad he's not around here, he could hire out the service I work for and have it brought to him in a Smartcar.
I guess you might out in the sticks. Too bad he's not around here, he could hire out the service I work for and have it brought to him in a Smartcar.
Thor29
09-19-05, 11:13 PM
Personally, I like to see people talking about peak oil and the excesses of the car culture. Since America's obsession with the automobile is dependent on a cheap oil supply, oil obviously has something to do with it. I would guess that a large number of people who live car free in the USA are doing it both for practical (economical) reasons and for ideological (political) reasons.
If you'd rather read a thread about bike trailers, then go ahead. No one is forcing you to read any philosophical/political threads. But I think this forum makes no sense without any discussion about car culture and reasons why or why not to be "car free". To not own a car, especially if you can afford one, is a political statement whether or not you intend it to be.
If you'd rather read a thread about bike trailers, then go ahead. No one is forcing you to read any philosophical/political threads. But I think this forum makes no sense without any discussion about car culture and reasons why or why not to be "car free". To not own a car, especially if you can afford one, is a political statement whether or not you intend it to be.
carless
09-19-05, 11:32 PM
The religious anti-oil stuff is tiring though.
*1-800-GOARMY* Recruiters are standing by. I mean, it's not like people are dying because of oil. Besides Iran, Venezuela have WMD's and- you'll love it (ask about the roadside bomb assistance plan).
2100 families are missing somebody, 40,000 people die a year because they must drive, and apparently you need a car to evacuate a hurricane (stay out of nursing homes).
The religious oil stuff is tiring though.
*1-800-GOARMY* Recruiters are standing by. I mean, it's not like people are dying because of oil. Besides Iran, Venezuela have WMD's and- you'll love it (ask about the roadside bomb assistance plan).
2100 families are missing somebody, 40,000 people die a year because they must drive, and apparently you need a car to evacuate a hurricane (stay out of nursing homes).
The religious oil stuff is tiring though.
carless
09-19-05, 11:36 PM
Exactly. This is my whole argument exactly. Autos do have there place, but North American society should stop building itself around cars. With a few exceptions, autos should be used for occasions only - camping, or other out-of-the-way activities for which other means of transportation aren't practical.
The only people who should use them as part of a daily commute are those haul equipment as part of their job (construction, housekeeping, deliver, etc.) It's ridiculously inefficient to used 1500pds+ of equipment to transport 100-200 pds of person.
I agree, cars are taking us for a ride.
The only people who should use them as part of a daily commute are those haul equipment as part of their job (construction, housekeeping, deliver, etc.) It's ridiculously inefficient to used 1500pds+ of equipment to transport 100-200 pds of person.
I agree, cars are taking us for a ride.
lilHinault
09-19-05, 11:36 PM
I've noticed the increasingly dogmatic turn that this forum has taken also -- I hope it can go back to folks just sharing tips/ideas about how to maneuver through western society w/o being shackled to a cage regardless of their "politics".
AMEN!!!!!!! I love to rail on cars as much as anyone, but let's try to keep most of the car-hatin' fun on the Politics thread.
AMEN!!!!!!! I love to rail on cars as much as anyone, but let's try to keep most of the car-hatin' fun on the Politics thread.
Guest
09-19-05, 11:51 PM
I guess you might out in the sticks. Too bad he's not around here, he could hire out the service I work for and have it brought to him in a Smartcar.
Have they brought the Smart cars out to Canada now? I heard we were going to get Smart car SUVs but not the minicars. :( Too bad, I wanted the little car. I don't think I could drive an SUV, even if Smart car made one.
Koffee
Have they brought the Smart cars out to Canada now? I heard we were going to get Smart car SUVs but not the minicars. :( Too bad, I wanted the little car. I don't think I could drive an SUV, even if Smart car made one.
Koffee
lauren
09-20-05, 08:21 AM
I guess you might out in the sticks. Too bad he's not around here, he could hire out the service I work for and have it brought to him in a Smartcar.
If I'm gonna pay a taxi to do an 80 mile round trip then I might as well own my own motorcycle (that's my plan). Sadly the soonest MSF course isn't until November :(. Frankly, I'm tired of not being able to go anywhere fun either. The public transit around here only runs during the week, when I'm at work. Nothing on the weekends.
If I'm gonna pay a taxi to do an 80 mile round trip then I might as well own my own motorcycle (that's my plan). Sadly the soonest MSF course isn't until November :(. Frankly, I'm tired of not being able to go anywhere fun either. The public transit around here only runs during the week, when I'm at work. Nothing on the weekends.
Pampusik
09-20-05, 11:22 AM
I've noticed this too ...... some of these threads really ought to go into the Politics forum. We want people who want to know the practical nuts and bolts of living w/o a car to feel welcome here and get good advice, or if it's from me advice anyway! Not feel like they entered the student dining hall and accidentally sat down at the "political debate" table lol.
I'm not a mod so, hopefully a mod seeing this nudges some of the threads over into Politics.
Where does this fear of politics come from?
I'm not a mod so, hopefully a mod seeing this nudges some of the threads over into Politics.
Where does this fear of politics come from?
jabowker
09-20-05, 11:53 AM
Where does this fear of politics come from?
No fear of politics, just would like a better signal to noise ratio. Thought that this forum was supposed to be about doing things on bicycles rather than pushing pet issues but I could be wrong.
No fear of politics, just would like a better signal to noise ratio. Thought that this forum was supposed to be about doing things on bicycles rather than pushing pet issues but I could be wrong.
slagjumper
10-01-05, 08:46 AM
Oil has been in the news a lot with the war and natural disasters. The price of gas influences people's behavoir, oil is needed to run the things that kill most bicyclists, oil use is mainstream and cycling is "second class". All of these things have an impact on being "car free" , rather than "bike only".
I agree that "anti oil rants" are a political subject, however the politics sub-heading seems only perused by the tough-willed polemisists. This subject also comes up in advocacy quite a bit.
There is some overrlap. I figure that the carfree are mostly kindred anti-oil folks by definition. The imapact of oil prices influence where you bike to get your food, (mega grocery store or local farmer's market). If oil and cars where cheap there would be less car free. Formerly car free folks in europe and asia are being displaced by growing afluence and cheap fuel. Hey I drive a honking evil suv, (speaking of dogmatic) but I do so as little as possible, and am hyper aware of cyclists. I think that sucks, but the high price of a new car and relative low price of gas, a 24 mile, 900 foot climb, 9 months a year good weather r/t commute, a job that requires a car sometimes, 4 other hungry mouths all conspire against my being car-free. I was given the suv and wish that I had sold it off before the price of gas shot up.
Fuel availability and cost, gas taxes, wars all have a huge impact on the US's petro-dependance and therefore the amount of car free. Being car free gets more complicated as you go on, not easier.
I agree that "anti oil rants" are a political subject, however the politics sub-heading seems only perused by the tough-willed polemisists. This subject also comes up in advocacy quite a bit.
There is some overrlap. I figure that the carfree are mostly kindred anti-oil folks by definition. The imapact of oil prices influence where you bike to get your food, (mega grocery store or local farmer's market). If oil and cars where cheap there would be less car free. Formerly car free folks in europe and asia are being displaced by growing afluence and cheap fuel. Hey I drive a honking evil suv, (speaking of dogmatic) but I do so as little as possible, and am hyper aware of cyclists. I think that sucks, but the high price of a new car and relative low price of gas, a 24 mile, 900 foot climb, 9 months a year good weather r/t commute, a job that requires a car sometimes, 4 other hungry mouths all conspire against my being car-free. I was given the suv and wish that I had sold it off before the price of gas shot up.
Fuel availability and cost, gas taxes, wars all have a huge impact on the US's petro-dependance and therefore the amount of car free. Being car free gets more complicated as you go on, not easier.
smurfy
10-01-05, 10:28 AM
Native Americans have been using petroleum oil for centuries for lamps and medicine before the Europeans arrived in the New World . I'm not anti-oil or anti-car by any means but I am for renewable energy, conservation and against oil and car dependency.
I had a discussion with a co-worker about this who is a mtn biker and lives out in the sticks. Even he said that if he didn't have motor vehicles where he lives it would be like being mooroned on an island. My wife was raised in NYC and never learned to drive so we can't live where no public transportation is available.
I had a discussion with a co-worker about this who is a mtn biker and lives out in the sticks. Even he said that if he didn't have motor vehicles where he lives it would be like being mooroned on an island. My wife was raised in NYC and never learned to drive so we can't live where no public transportation is available.
mike
10-01-05, 10:55 PM
I've noticed this too ...... some of these threads really ought to go into the Politics forum. We want people who want to know the practical nuts and bolts of living w/o a car to feel welcome here and get good advice, or if it's from me advice anyway! Not feel like they entered the student dining hall and accidentally sat down at the "political debate" table lol.
I'm not a mod so, hopefully a mod seeing this nudges some of the threads over into Politics.
Of course "Living Car Free" has "Living Oil Free" implications. The two are intimately intertwined.
What, "Living Car Free" is supposed to be limited to the thrill of using two wheels instead of four? "Living Car Free" should include all aspects, including the idea that you are not burning fossil fuels, if that is what turns you on. Frankly, it turns me on to know that I am not using fossil fuels when I ride.
If you don't like posts about the reduced use of fossil fuels or oil, then skip them. Big deal. If you think there needs to be more posts about the other aspects of bicycling or "Car Free Living", start a new thread.
I think that trying to CONTROL electronic conversation topics by moving them around or monitoring them is a lot more political than folks just talking about how they like not using fossil fuels.
One of the things I like about bikeforums is that it isn't too overly moderated. We should enjoy the free flow of discussion as long as it is not terribly offensive or over-the-top innapropriate to the wide audience it serves. Over-moderation has been the death of many a well-intended internet forums. We don't need that here.
I'm not a mod so, hopefully a mod seeing this nudges some of the threads over into Politics.
Of course "Living Car Free" has "Living Oil Free" implications. The two are intimately intertwined.
What, "Living Car Free" is supposed to be limited to the thrill of using two wheels instead of four? "Living Car Free" should include all aspects, including the idea that you are not burning fossil fuels, if that is what turns you on. Frankly, it turns me on to know that I am not using fossil fuels when I ride.
If you don't like posts about the reduced use of fossil fuels or oil, then skip them. Big deal. If you think there needs to be more posts about the other aspects of bicycling or "Car Free Living", start a new thread.
I think that trying to CONTROL electronic conversation topics by moving them around or monitoring them is a lot more political than folks just talking about how they like not using fossil fuels.
One of the things I like about bikeforums is that it isn't too overly moderated. We should enjoy the free flow of discussion as long as it is not terribly offensive or over-the-top innapropriate to the wide audience it serves. Over-moderation has been the death of many a well-intended internet forums. We don't need that here.
ppc
10-02-05, 03:51 AM
What, "Living Car Free" is supposed to be limited to the thrill of using two wheels instead of four? "Living Car Free" should include all aspects, including the idea that you are not burning fossil fuels, if that is what turns you on. Frankly, it turns me on to know that I am not using fossil fuels when I ride.
I find this "car-free=oil-free" thread completely self-delusional, it's amazing that intelligent people such as the folks on this forum can't distinguish reality from their fantasy.
I hate to burst your bubble, but living car free isn't living petrol free. At best, you can claim you don't use fossil fuels as a direct energy source when you ride, but you use oil in your tires, all the plastic parts in your bike, the machines needed to put your bike together, the packaging the bike came to your LBS into, the oil on your chain, the grease in your bearings, the pesticides used to grow the food you power your bike with and the packaging the food came into, the trucks used to collect and landfill said packagings, your cycling gear and the machines to produce it, the boiler that heats the water you use to shower after a ride, etc... And that's not even counting the oil (or gas) you burn for the rest of your living, that's not related directly to cycling, such as heating your home.
Direct oil consumption to get around (i.e. pouring gasoline into a tank) is only a small part of the true "fossil fuel bill" of an individual, because the whole of society around this individual uses fossil fuel to provide goods and services essential to him. Even looking only at the oil needed indirectly to enable a person to ride a bicycle, it's easy to see nobody is oil free in the matter.
So, unless you live in a wooden cabin in the middle of the forest, heat yourself with wood and bathe in the lake after riding, hunt for meat and fur, eat exclusively bio vegetables from your land, and ride a bike you made yourself by hand without plastic parts, with natural rubber tires, and lubed by sunflower oil, stop deluding yourself. You use oil, just a teensy bit less when you cycle.
I find this "car-free=oil-free" thread completely self-delusional, it's amazing that intelligent people such as the folks on this forum can't distinguish reality from their fantasy.
I hate to burst your bubble, but living car free isn't living petrol free. At best, you can claim you don't use fossil fuels as a direct energy source when you ride, but you use oil in your tires, all the plastic parts in your bike, the machines needed to put your bike together, the packaging the bike came to your LBS into, the oil on your chain, the grease in your bearings, the pesticides used to grow the food you power your bike with and the packaging the food came into, the trucks used to collect and landfill said packagings, your cycling gear and the machines to produce it, the boiler that heats the water you use to shower after a ride, etc... And that's not even counting the oil (or gas) you burn for the rest of your living, that's not related directly to cycling, such as heating your home.
Direct oil consumption to get around (i.e. pouring gasoline into a tank) is only a small part of the true "fossil fuel bill" of an individual, because the whole of society around this individual uses fossil fuel to provide goods and services essential to him. Even looking only at the oil needed indirectly to enable a person to ride a bicycle, it's easy to see nobody is oil free in the matter.
So, unless you live in a wooden cabin in the middle of the forest, heat yourself with wood and bathe in the lake after riding, hunt for meat and fur, eat exclusively bio vegetables from your land, and ride a bike you made yourself by hand without plastic parts, with natural rubber tires, and lubed by sunflower oil, stop deluding yourself. You use oil, just a teensy bit less when you cycle.
mike
10-02-05, 08:57 AM
I find this "car-free=oil-free" thread completely self-delusional, it's amazing that intelligent people such as the folks on this forum can't distinguish reality from their fantasy.
I hate to burst your bubble, but living car free isn't living petrol free. At best, you can claim you don't use fossil fuels as a direct energy source when you ride, but you use oil in your tires, all the plastic parts in your bike, the machines needed to put your bike together, the packaging the bike came to your LBS into, the oil on your chain, the grease in your bearings, the pesticides used to grow the food you power your bike with and the packaging the food came into, the trucks used to collect and landfill said packagings, your cycling gear and the machines to produce it, the boiler that heats the water you use to shower after a ride, etc... And that's not even counting the oil (or gas) you burn for the rest of your living, that's not related directly to cycling, such as heating your home.
Direct oil consumption to get around (i.e. pouring gasoline into a tank) is only a small part of the true "fossil fuel bill" of an individual, because the whole of society around this individual uses fossil fuel to provide goods and services essential to him. Even looking only at the oil needed indirectly to enable a person to ride a bicycle, it's easy to see nobody is oil free in the matter.
So, unless you live in a wooden cabin in the middle of the forest, heat yourself with wood and bathe in the lake after riding, hunt for meat and fur, eat exclusively bio vegetables from your land, and ride a bike you made yourself by hand without plastic parts, with natural rubber tires, and lubed by sunflower oil, stop deluding yourself. You use oil, just a teensy bit less when you cycle.
Of course, ppc, you are correct. Even the combs we use to tame our helmet hair is made of petrolium products.
I hate to burst your bubble, but living car free isn't living petrol free. At best, you can claim you don't use fossil fuels as a direct energy source when you ride, but you use oil in your tires, all the plastic parts in your bike, the machines needed to put your bike together, the packaging the bike came to your LBS into, the oil on your chain, the grease in your bearings, the pesticides used to grow the food you power your bike with and the packaging the food came into, the trucks used to collect and landfill said packagings, your cycling gear and the machines to produce it, the boiler that heats the water you use to shower after a ride, etc... And that's not even counting the oil (or gas) you burn for the rest of your living, that's not related directly to cycling, such as heating your home.
Direct oil consumption to get around (i.e. pouring gasoline into a tank) is only a small part of the true "fossil fuel bill" of an individual, because the whole of society around this individual uses fossil fuel to provide goods and services essential to him. Even looking only at the oil needed indirectly to enable a person to ride a bicycle, it's easy to see nobody is oil free in the matter.
So, unless you live in a wooden cabin in the middle of the forest, heat yourself with wood and bathe in the lake after riding, hunt for meat and fur, eat exclusively bio vegetables from your land, and ride a bike you made yourself by hand without plastic parts, with natural rubber tires, and lubed by sunflower oil, stop deluding yourself. You use oil, just a teensy bit less when you cycle.
Of course, ppc, you are correct. Even the combs we use to tame our helmet hair is made of petrolium products.
ctyler
10-02-05, 12:04 PM
Why has this forum suddenly become the 'Oil Free' rant list?
Don't know, but the only way anyone will be oil free is when we run out of oil. Oil is used in so many ways from agriculture to grow, harvest, and ship food to synthetic materials, ect. So "oil free?" RIGHT!
Don't know, but the only way anyone will be oil free is when we run out of oil. Oil is used in so many ways from agriculture to grow, harvest, and ship food to synthetic materials, ect. So "oil free?" RIGHT!
Platy
10-02-05, 12:51 PM
In my opinion, rational discussion of car and/or petroleum dependency issues is just not possible in the U.S. at the present time.
carless
10-02-05, 11:30 PM
I find this "car-free=oil-free" thread completely self-delusional, it's amazing that intelligent people such as the folks on this forum can't distinguish reality from their fantasy.
I hate to burst your bubble, but living car free isn't living petrol free. At best, you can claim you don't use fossil fuels as a direct energy source when you ride, but you use oil in your tires, all the plastic parts in your bike, the machines needed to put your bike together, the packaging the bike came to your LBS into, the oil on your chain, the grease in your bearings, the pesticides used to grow the food you power your bike with and the packaging the food came into, the trucks used to collect and landfill said packagings, your cycling gear and the machines to produce it, the boiler that heats the water you use to shower after a ride, etc... And that's not even counting the oil (or gas) you burn for the rest of your living, that's not related directly to cycling, such as heating your home.
Direct oil consumption to get around (i.e. pouring gasoline into a tank) is only a small part of the true "fossil fuel bill" of an individual, because the whole of society around this individual uses fossil fuel to provide goods and services essential to him. Even looking only at the oil needed indirectly to enable a person to ride a bicycle, it's easy to see nobody is oil free in the matter.
So, unless you live in a wooden cabin in the middle of the forest, heat yourself with wood and bathe in the lake after riding, hunt for meat and fur, eat exclusively bio vegetables from your land, and ride a bike you made yourself by hand without plastic parts, with natural rubber tires, and lubed by sunflower oil, stop deluding yourself. You use oil, just a teensy bit less when you cycle.
Taken to extremes, you are absolutely right. On the other hand half of oil is used in gas and half of that is used for other than commuting to work. I am talking about an individuals small part in a cheap oil philosophy, you sir, are talking about moral superiority. Thats different and quite abrasive, I give you debating points and wordy Google searches but a failing grade in the nuances of an advanced argument
prefaced by your absolutist conviction: you are right. Consider an idea by it's merits, by it's parts and how they combine for a consequence. Personal ridicule and bombastic tones are the hallmark of a limited and unimaginative response to a complex problem. Redeem yourself and offer the counter point, the opposite opinion and make it positive. If this is laughable then be comical, if after a blanket indignation of car-free people, you find solace in textual oneupmanship, post again. If you simply had an aberration of thought, felt weakened in a car-centric society and were near a computer, fess up. If you feel great about belittling people who believe bicycles are useful and effective as transportation it begs the question "What are you doing here?"
I hate to burst your bubble, but living car free isn't living petrol free. At best, you can claim you don't use fossil fuels as a direct energy source when you ride, but you use oil in your tires, all the plastic parts in your bike, the machines needed to put your bike together, the packaging the bike came to your LBS into, the oil on your chain, the grease in your bearings, the pesticides used to grow the food you power your bike with and the packaging the food came into, the trucks used to collect and landfill said packagings, your cycling gear and the machines to produce it, the boiler that heats the water you use to shower after a ride, etc... And that's not even counting the oil (or gas) you burn for the rest of your living, that's not related directly to cycling, such as heating your home.
Direct oil consumption to get around (i.e. pouring gasoline into a tank) is only a small part of the true "fossil fuel bill" of an individual, because the whole of society around this individual uses fossil fuel to provide goods and services essential to him. Even looking only at the oil needed indirectly to enable a person to ride a bicycle, it's easy to see nobody is oil free in the matter.
So, unless you live in a wooden cabin in the middle of the forest, heat yourself with wood and bathe in the lake after riding, hunt for meat and fur, eat exclusively bio vegetables from your land, and ride a bike you made yourself by hand without plastic parts, with natural rubber tires, and lubed by sunflower oil, stop deluding yourself. You use oil, just a teensy bit less when you cycle.
Taken to extremes, you are absolutely right. On the other hand half of oil is used in gas and half of that is used for other than commuting to work. I am talking about an individuals small part in a cheap oil philosophy, you sir, are talking about moral superiority. Thats different and quite abrasive, I give you debating points and wordy Google searches but a failing grade in the nuances of an advanced argument
prefaced by your absolutist conviction: you are right. Consider an idea by it's merits, by it's parts and how they combine for a consequence. Personal ridicule and bombastic tones are the hallmark of a limited and unimaginative response to a complex problem. Redeem yourself and offer the counter point, the opposite opinion and make it positive. If this is laughable then be comical, if after a blanket indignation of car-free people, you find solace in textual oneupmanship, post again. If you simply had an aberration of thought, felt weakened in a car-centric society and were near a computer, fess up. If you feel great about belittling people who believe bicycles are useful and effective as transportation it begs the question "What are you doing here?"
ppc
10-03-05, 12:00 AM
If this is laughable then be comical, if after a blanket indignation of car-free people, you find solace in textual oneupmanship, post again. If you simply had an aberration of thought, felt weakened in a car-centric society and were near a computer, fess up. If you feel great about belittling people who believe bicycles are useful and effective as transportation it begs the question "What are you doing here?"
Wow man, you need to lighten up a little. "What are you doing here" is easy to answer: I am car-free and I come here to learn car-free living tips, and read stories of people who have taken the jump.
Now, I realize a big part of the car-free crowd is ecology-minded, and I respect their choices to help shake our societies free of the oil dependence and help dampen the impending climate changes in their own ways, and I have much respect for them because they walk the talk. Because of this, there is always going to be a fair amount of crosstalk between purely car-free subjects and politically charged subjects about oil and ecology on this list.
But the number of otherwise intelligent people who post here to gloat about how oil-free they have become on their bikes, blissfully unaware that as long as you don't kick the bucket and participate in society, you consume oil all the time, every minute, every second of your life, is just ridiculous. That's what compelled me to answer. I'm not belittling or mocking anybody: if you want to be truly free of fossil fuels, you better be prepared to live on the rough because that's exactly how people lived before the industrial revolution. Even worse than before the industrial revolution in fact, because you couldn't even interact with the rest of society anymore to stick to your principles.
If car-free folks are offended by my pointing out the unmistakable truth about their oil consumption, then so be it. As for feeling "weakened in a car-centric society", you should know that I post this at 7:58 AM when I'm supposed to be at work at 8:15, and my neighbour left in his car about half an hour ago to beat the rush, so I don't really feel at a disadvantage on my bike :)
Wow man, you need to lighten up a little. "What are you doing here" is easy to answer: I am car-free and I come here to learn car-free living tips, and read stories of people who have taken the jump.
Now, I realize a big part of the car-free crowd is ecology-minded, and I respect their choices to help shake our societies free of the oil dependence and help dampen the impending climate changes in their own ways, and I have much respect for them because they walk the talk. Because of this, there is always going to be a fair amount of crosstalk between purely car-free subjects and politically charged subjects about oil and ecology on this list.
But the number of otherwise intelligent people who post here to gloat about how oil-free they have become on their bikes, blissfully unaware that as long as you don't kick the bucket and participate in society, you consume oil all the time, every minute, every second of your life, is just ridiculous. That's what compelled me to answer. I'm not belittling or mocking anybody: if you want to be truly free of fossil fuels, you better be prepared to live on the rough because that's exactly how people lived before the industrial revolution. Even worse than before the industrial revolution in fact, because you couldn't even interact with the rest of society anymore to stick to your principles.
If car-free folks are offended by my pointing out the unmistakable truth about their oil consumption, then so be it. As for feeling "weakened in a car-centric society", you should know that I post this at 7:58 AM when I'm supposed to be at work at 8:15, and my neighbour left in his car about half an hour ago to beat the rush, so I don't really feel at a disadvantage on my bike :)
carless
10-03-05, 11:48 PM
Wow man, you need to lighten up a little. "What are you doing here" is easy to answer: I am car-free and I come here to learn car-free living tips, and read stories of people who have taken the jump.
Now, I realize a big part of the car-free crowd is ecology-minded, and I respect their choices to help shake our societies free of the oil dependence and help dampen the impending climate changes in their own ways, and I have much respect for them because they walk the talk. Because of this, there is always going to be a fair amount of crosstalk between purely car-free subjects and politically charged subjects about oil and ecology on this list.
But the number of otherwise intelligent people who post here to gloat about how oil-free they have become on their bikes, blissfully unaware that as long as you don't kick the bucket and participate in society, you consume oil all the time, every minute, every second of your life, is just ridiculous. That's what compelled me to answer. I'm not belittling or mocking anybody: if you want to be truly free of fossil fuels, you better be prepared to live on the rough because that's exactly how people lived before the industrial revolution. Even worse than before the industrial revolution in fact, because you couldn't even interact with the rest of society anymore to stick to your principles.
If car-free folks are offended by my pointing out the unmistakable truth about their oil consumption, then so be it. As for feeling "weakened in a car-centric society", you should know that I post this at 7:58 AM when I'm supposed to be at work at 8:15, and my neighbour left in his car about half an hour ago to beat the rush, so I don't really feel at a disadvantage on my bike :)
Substitute the word oil for the word gas:
taken from http://www.worldcarfree.net/resources/stats.php
//
Most cars run on gasoline or diesel. These are derived from petroleum, more usually called oil. Globally, motor vehicles use one third of the world's oil—finding oil involves habitat loss, oil spills, air and water pollution, large emissions of carbon dioxide, regular humanitarian abuses and wars.
By 1985 transport, in the shape of cars, buses and trucks, used 39 percent of Japan's oil, 44 percent of Western Europe's and 63 percent of the USA's consumption of oil.
//
The reason for gloating about car-free is: a majority (U.S) of oil is gas, and not pocket combs. The survivor type scenario of a unabomber cabin is technically correct but broadly misapplied. This forums gloater's are 63% right in using gas for oil, and where I live
http://www.bikesatwork.com/carfree/census-lookup.php?state_select=*&lower_pop=250000&upper_pop=999999999&sort_num=1&show_rows=25&first_row=0
1.39% ride a bike to work.
To summarize, (I am not making this personal to you) most of the degradation of cities, our current foreign policy, and our daily lives are dictated by the car, and fueled by gas (oil) in a destructive way. One person can make a difference by choosing to ride a bike, and that my friend is why people are congratulating themselves about not using gas, they mistake for oil.
Now, I realize a big part of the car-free crowd is ecology-minded, and I respect their choices to help shake our societies free of the oil dependence and help dampen the impending climate changes in their own ways, and I have much respect for them because they walk the talk. Because of this, there is always going to be a fair amount of crosstalk between purely car-free subjects and politically charged subjects about oil and ecology on this list.
But the number of otherwise intelligent people who post here to gloat about how oil-free they have become on their bikes, blissfully unaware that as long as you don't kick the bucket and participate in society, you consume oil all the time, every minute, every second of your life, is just ridiculous. That's what compelled me to answer. I'm not belittling or mocking anybody: if you want to be truly free of fossil fuels, you better be prepared to live on the rough because that's exactly how people lived before the industrial revolution. Even worse than before the industrial revolution in fact, because you couldn't even interact with the rest of society anymore to stick to your principles.
If car-free folks are offended by my pointing out the unmistakable truth about their oil consumption, then so be it. As for feeling "weakened in a car-centric society", you should know that I post this at 7:58 AM when I'm supposed to be at work at 8:15, and my neighbour left in his car about half an hour ago to beat the rush, so I don't really feel at a disadvantage on my bike :)
Substitute the word oil for the word gas:
taken from http://www.worldcarfree.net/resources/stats.php
//
Most cars run on gasoline or diesel. These are derived from petroleum, more usually called oil. Globally, motor vehicles use one third of the world's oil—finding oil involves habitat loss, oil spills, air and water pollution, large emissions of carbon dioxide, regular humanitarian abuses and wars.
By 1985 transport, in the shape of cars, buses and trucks, used 39 percent of Japan's oil, 44 percent of Western Europe's and 63 percent of the USA's consumption of oil.
//
The reason for gloating about car-free is: a majority (U.S) of oil is gas, and not pocket combs. The survivor type scenario of a unabomber cabin is technically correct but broadly misapplied. This forums gloater's are 63% right in using gas for oil, and where I live
http://www.bikesatwork.com/carfree/census-lookup.php?state_select=*&lower_pop=250000&upper_pop=999999999&sort_num=1&show_rows=25&first_row=0
1.39% ride a bike to work.
To summarize, (I am not making this personal to you) most of the degradation of cities, our current foreign policy, and our daily lives are dictated by the car, and fueled by gas (oil) in a destructive way. One person can make a difference by choosing to ride a bike, and that my friend is why people are congratulating themselves about not using gas, they mistake for oil.
ppc
10-04-05, 10:27 AM
Substitute the word oil for the word gas
If we're talking specifically about gasoline and not oil then fair enough :) I can't say I don't feel pretty clever myself when I pass people gassing up at the station down the road for top dollar (well, euro). Gas here in Belgium is around $6.8/gal, motorists look pretty depressed when they fill up their tanks these days, but of course cyclists don't feel a thing and we feel good about it, naturally. I did feel the current price of oil pretty sharply when I paid for 2000l of heating fuel for this winter though...
If we're talking specifically about gasoline and not oil then fair enough :) I can't say I don't feel pretty clever myself when I pass people gassing up at the station down the road for top dollar (well, euro). Gas here in Belgium is around $6.8/gal, motorists look pretty depressed when they fill up their tanks these days, but of course cyclists don't feel a thing and we feel good about it, naturally. I did feel the current price of oil pretty sharply when I paid for 2000l of heating fuel for this winter though...
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