Road Cycling - first road bike -tiagra or 105? or campy?

Hello

Im making the move from mountain biking to the road. Well, I already ride on the road but on a rigid Marin mtb with slicks (and a bob trailer!). Anyhow, I want to get a bike that will last for a long time, but of course dont want to spend money needlessly. From what I read at roadbikereview the ultegra parts arent worth the extra money over 105, but what about the difference between 105 and tiagra? It looks like sora is junk. There are a lot of bikes with the 105 grouppo too. Im looking at the cannondale r600, the trek 2200, the giant tcr(?), the Jamis Quest, the GT ZR 3.0,Lemond Buenos Aires, Marin Verona, and a Pinarello Galileo... long list. I need to do some test riding. But should I consider tiagra? Also, what is comparable to 105 in the compaglano line? I dont see their parts nearly as often as shimano.

THANKS FOR THE HELP!

Hi M8

I wouldn't recommend the GT, if you are interested in warrenties! They've just gone into recievership in the last couple of days.

And you can guess what my opinions are regarding groupset choice by my name.

There is a saying in the trade - "Shimano wears out, Campag wears in!". Campag starts out being quite clunky in the gear shifting department, but grows into a beautiful smooth setup. The best thing is that Campag stuff lasts for years. I had a Campag Chorus Bottom Bracket that lasted for 7 years(the first 4 were done at the rate of 300-500miles per week). The shop I work in see's alot of new bikes coming back in within 6 months with worn Shimano BBs.

Hope this helps

Greg

I just finished a my first ride on my first road bike. I bought it last November, and brought it home in the middle of the first snowstorm of the year, and have been waiting for the weather and roads to clear up to take it out. It's still pretty messy, but today was the day! It's a Cannondale R800, and on first impressions, I love it. It's mostly 105 stuff (brakes & hubs are coda),with the CAAD 4 aluminum frame and everything works great. Of course since it's my first road bike I don't have anything to compare it to. I was a little worried after hearing all winter about the harshness of aluminum but it seems OK. I'll know better after some long rides. Today was 30km on fairly rough city streets and even with the 700X23's the ride was good. Quite a difference from my hybrid and MTB! I don't know why I waited this long for a bike like this. Probably because I got a good deal on a bike that the LBS had sponsored a junior racer on all summer, and I happened to walk in at the right time. I think the only thing I'll change is the seat, I've got a Terry Ti Fly on order (on a good deal from Performance Bike), and I'll probably put aerobars on. Anyway right now I'm grinning!!! :D

The harshness or otherwise of a frame only comes into play after a very long ride. After 70 miles of a century, you know if your bike is punishing or smoothe.

Well, I really don't have the experience to comment intelligently, so I will comment ignorantly. To me one of the best values out there in a very reasonably priced road bike is the Bianchi Veloce, full Campy Veloce gruppo, steel frame for about $1450. I don't know what kind of money you are thinking about, but that is what I plan to buy for my first. But then I am a sucker for that celeste color. :-)
Regards,
Raymond

105 is good stuff..much better than tiagra overall.. the difference between 105 and ultegra are , on 105 some of the metal is steel ,and on ultegra it is aluminum and the jockey wheels use sealed bearings as opposed to sleeved bushings on the 105 !. The comparatively equal in the Campag catalog to 105 is probably veloce !.

Thanks for all the help guys.

Im gonno go do some test riding

Get campy-
You can upgrade all the way up to Record with each part if you need/want.
You won't have to buy two or three extra things to get the one you want.
Spare parts are made and available much longer.
Campy stuff lasts longer and is easier to work on.
More experienced riders will give you more respect

Get a steel frame, it may be heavier than aluminum, but will have a much better ride, will last longer and will be fixable when aluminum won't

My current road bike (also my first) has Shimano RSX componants, which I believe are equivalent to Tiagra.
Compared to my MTB Alivio and Acera components the RSX is awsome. Bottom of the line Road bike stuff is a TON better than bottom of the line MTB stuff.

My next bike will have 105 or maybe Ultegra. If you can afford it I would definatly go with the 105. But it depends what you are used to with MTBs. If you're used to XT or XTR stuff on MTBs, the Tiagra may not seem very smooth. If you used to Dieore it will probably be equivilent.

The only other road bike componants I've used it Campy Mirage, which I did not like. They did not shift well and I much perfer the Shimano style levers over the Campy levers. I suggest you try them both and chose for yourself.

Well....
Unless you're going to take out a mortgage, and build up your own bike (not a good idea for your first road bike), I'd shoot for a mid-range, off-the-shelf bike. And you really need to look at the whole thing. Overall frame fit, weight and ride are the things you'll notice first. Good wheels are more important than high dollar components. But in general, you get the most overall value and bang for the buck if you get a bike that comes with the better stuff (up to a point).

If you get a bike that retails for around $1500, you should come away with a package that you won't be disappointed with. In that price range, I'm partial to the previously mentioned Bianchi, or LeMond Buenos Aires, but there's lots of other good stuff out there.

Hey! This post makes me a Senior Member!
:beer:

I cannot speak for Campy, but I can tell you that 105 is well worth the money you'll be paying for it. It shifts so smoothly so well, that I sometimes think I missed a shift! It looks great, and doesn't look cheap, contrary to what others were saying. If you want to upgrade certain parts, it's possible because 105/Ultegra and D/A are interchangeable! Plus, you can get the new shift levers which are Flight Deck compatible and allow hands-on-the-hoods operation of the cyclocomputer.

From some of the posts I've read though, some say that Mirage is better than 105.....

Anyway, don't forget to test both gruppos to check which kind of shifter suits you best too.

Good luck

Iam currently using a dura/ace groupo, but if I have an extra money I would go for the campy/record comparison wise, almost the same, but as they say it, campy last forever.....

Ba-Dg-Er,
I think you will be waiting for a long time, the extra money isn't coming in a long time as for now....

I just got my road bike after years on a hybrid. I ended up spending a lot more than I had planned and purchased a Trek 5200 OCLV with Ultregra components. I love it. I actually purchased a different bike first with Tiagra parts and returned it because I was so unhappy with the shifting among other things. I test rode bikes with 105's and was really happy with that. The difference between Tiagra and 105 is significant and it's really worth the money to go with the 105's. I also test rode a Bianchi with Campy parts and thought it was great. I settled on my Trek because, overall, it was the best bike for me but I would have been very happy with the Bianchi/Campy combo or 105 parts if everything else was perfect. The bottom line is don't go with Tiagra.

I have been under the impression that from Tiagra to 105 the component engineering and workmanship is much improved and that from 105 up, the design and quality are similar except that with each step up, components are lighter due to material changes from steel to aluminum to some ti. Is that more or less correct?

So if we are comparing MTB components to Road what would the Deore LX compare to? My LBS told me it is about the same quality as the 105. Is that about true or what. Thanks...
:confused:

This is a very subjective equivalents list, but it breaks down sort of like this...

Shimano MTB/Shimano Road/Campagnolo

XTR / Dura Ace / Chorus [Record is a half-step above]
XT / Ultegra / Centaur [Daytona]
LX / 105 / Veloce
Deore / Tiagra / Mirage
Alivio / Sora / Xenon

Of course it's much more complex than that. I find that Dura Ace is a little lighter and more polished than Chorus and Ultegra than Centaur Daytona, so you might say they're a half-step [or less] up. Veloce is about exactly on par with 105 -- it's solid, dependable, raceable and basically the same technology as the upper end. Tiagra is significantly better than Mirage and Sora, for some reason, is quite a bit better than Xenon, from what I've heard. [Xenon is an entry-level, kiddie group].

By "better," I'm referring to component material and manufacturing quality, durability, accuracy, polish and aesthetics. Just for reference, I have XTR on my MTB, 105 on my cross bike and Daytona [Centaur] on my road bike, and I have a fair bit of experience with other groups.

No. Chorus is beautiful. It is well compared to Dura-Ace but is more beautiful and better finished.
Just look at the crank or the brake calipers. Chorus is really the same as Record execpt for a few weight saving parts.

Chorus and Record will last forever. You know the difference is all in the "feel" for me. Campagnolo feels so "dialed in" and connected. I love it. What I can say about Shimano is that it does its job well and without bother. Both systems are utterly reliable with Campy having the 10 speed system (need a special tool for the chain or just buy the Wipperman chain for no-hassles)

What do you want to spend your money on? Workmanlike or Passionate?

I had to buy my bike on a budget and I was lucky enough to find one with a 105 gruppo at the Sora price. One year and 6,000 miles later, it is running as well as the day I bought it. Maybe better: The system is so good, it inspires me to work on it frequently and keep it in top condition. My friend just bought a new bike with Ultegra on it. I can't see much difference between Ultegra and 105. I don't know much about Tiagra. One thing I 've noticed about some of the lower end Cannondale models is that they mix the components, like maybe a Tiagra front derailleur and 105 in the back. I don't know the advantage of that other than some cost cutting.

Rich

Something I haven't seen addressed is resale value...what % of your initial investment can you recoup if you decide to sell in the future?

Obviously, the 105 and up groups should hold their value better than the lower end stuff...anyone have any real world data?

velocipedio,

Thanks for the break down on the different groups. I pretty much figured that it was close to that and if you look in Treks new catalog they have a similar break down with the exception of Tiagra and they have it pretty low compared to 105 or Deore LX.
pf

I am pleased (and amazed as well) at how the religious aspects of this discussion have not appeared. And it is often that - sorta' like the PC/Mac discussions. Of course Mac wins hands down, but that is for another topic. ;)

I have ridden few, but looked hard at many, gruppos. And I speak some Italian but no Japanese. Given these biases, I have to say that I would always go Campa. Full stop. To my eye, it is simply more aesthetically pleasing, which is worth some little bit if utility is not the only thing you care about.

I have heard the rumors/facts about being able to repair Ergos, but having to replace STIs, and the long term availability of almost any Campa tiny bit but not so with Shimano. That could make a real difference, but if true, also speaks a bit to concern for the customer base.

As for performance, I have posted elsewhere that I have heard that DA shifts "better" than Record, but I can not imagine what could be any smoother or easier than my Centaur (road version) setup. Perhaps under racing conditions, but certainly not when I ride.

I also posted somewhere in the Forums a comparison made by Tour and other magazines recently which pretty much tracks the earlier one in this topic. It essentially pointed out that when you get past the marketing, DA and Chorus are about the same, but the pricing alignment changes from when you compare Record with DA - a somewhat invalid comparison.

Cheers...Gary

Alot of Campy stuff is rebuildable (tho I have never needed to). There is no way DA shifts better than Chorus. I will say it maybe preference in feel but that is as far as one can honestly go. They are equally efficent. I like Campy because I can drop 1,2,3 gears with one push of the lever (instead of flicking 3 times with DA). When you crest that hill and hit a slight descent...BAM, from the 21 to 16 with one push, you are gone baby! I also prefer the hoods and the fact all the cables are hidden and routed through the bars.

10 speed is great. A 12-25 gives you that extra 25t that helps on real grinders. The 11-23 feels like a straight block! Perfect, fast sync shifts to keep your cadence peerrrfeect!
They are even comparably priced but the long term value and durability belong to Campagnolo. People value Campy parts and even seek old Campy stuff. That kind of passion fails to muster for Shimano parts.
Don't even start with the bottom bracket either! It takes alot more skill and $ to manufacture the square post than it does the splined Shimano. Besides the fact it works wonderfully.
You can't compare Record to DA. Record is in its own class and if you put a Record bike next to a DA bike you will understand why.

But I don't think that Record performs better than Chorus. It is lighter and more chi-chi, but in that arena, that is what you are paying for.

Anyway, DA is no slouch and you don't loose with it. I like it fine. I just think Campagnolo is all about superior feel, beautiful presentation and durability. You buy and use Shimano. You INVEST in Campagnolo.


Originally posted by gmason

I have heard the rumors/facts about being able to repair Ergos, but having to replace STIs, and the long term availability of almost any Campa tiny bit but not so with Shimano. That could make a real difference, but if true, also speaks a bit to concern for the customer base.

As for performance, I have posted elsewhere that I have heard that DA shifts "better" than Record, but I can not imagine what could be any smoother or easier than my Centaur (road version) setup. Perhaps under racing conditions, but certainly not when I ride.

Cheers...Gary

Well put re investing.

In fact, Record and Chorus are identical in design. Implementation is different, with titanium and carbon in many places in Record, not in Chorus.

Cheers...Gary

thanks!
I really can't comment on Veloce or Centaur as I have not used either. I did have some time on Daytona (same as Centaur) group and I was surprised the shifting was nearly as good as Chorus. The brakes were good, just not nearly as nice. It has an exposed bolt (like shimano). Chorus and Record have hidden pivot bolts.
Record also has differential brakes for the front and rear as an option not available with the lower groups.

I don't have campy, so I can't comment authoritatively, but another campy vs. shimano diff:
Ergo: upshift several gears at a pop (is it 3? 4?)
STI: 1 gear at a time.

Campy vs Shimano = Mental torment

I honestly think one can really hurt themselves trying to decide wich is best. Me, I went with a 105 group because it was on the frame I liked and it shifted well. Every one has a different view/opinion. Buy what you like, I have a feeling that they they are comparable at all levels.

According to a member who made a statement in this thread that senior riders will respect you more if you ride Campy is a nonsensical statement. I didnt think we were judged on our frames or components. I thought we gained respect from our peers and senior riders by our abilities and the respect we show towards others as well as the sport.

Campy vs. Shimano is a personal preference thing. They do the same thing in different ways. I personally prefer Campy on my road bike for these reasons:

1. Ten-speed means I always have the right gear for the right terrain. I run an 11-23 block and I use ALL of it, including the 11. I love the 39/16 combination for crusing. To get the 16, I would hav had to sacrifice the 11t cog, and though I don't use it that often, I like having it for a downhill sprint.

2. The Campy front derailleur is not, strictly speaking, indexed. This lets me trim my chainline much more precisely than with Shimano. This is not a big deal to most people, but it is to me. Also, I find that Shimano not only has problems with extremes [like inner chainring and outer cog], it is VERY difficult to tune Shimano so that you can use the second cog with the inner chainring without some rubbing.

3. Campy requires a little more force for shifts than Shimano, but I prefer the more positive CLICK I get from a Campy shift. I like the feedback. Also, I can shift up multiple cogs with one push in Campy -- a biog plus in a sprint -- but I have to repeat-click in Shimano.

4. I like the Campy ErgoPower levers. I find the hoods more comfortable, and I prefer the blade/thumbshifter arrangement. In Shimano STI, there are occasions -- when I'm cooked on a climb and not being careful -- when the levers lock on a downshift because I'm not pushing the brake lever just so. Not a big problem, of course, but this is a preference thing. I'm also not overly crazy about having to swing the whole brake lever for a downshift, but I haven't screwed-up on that yet, so I guess it's not a huge problem.

Having said all of that, i find the performance and quality of both companies' components to be excellent... certainly better than the Suntour/Simplex mix I had one one of my old Raleighs. :D I think Campy users are a little more passionate about their components because of the cool Italian mystique [a Marcello Mastroianni in ray Ban Wayfarers kind of thing] and because they're just a little more exotic than Shimano. One of the guys at my LBS observed that, when people buys frames and spec their own bikes, they choose Campy about two-thirds of the time, but when they buy a built bike like a Trek 5200, they really go for Shimano. Maybe that's because,w ehn you buy a built American bike, you always GET Shimano, and if you want to get Campy, you have to spec your own.

The down-side of Campy 10-speed is the chain. It's a marvellous piece of engineering, and more durable that equivalent Shimano chains, but it's extremely expensive and non-breakable. That means that you have to clean it on the bike, necessitating the use of one of those cleaning machines or a toothbrush and great patience. Again, this is not a [i]major issue, but is is an annoyance, and I find that I can get my chain much cleaner when I remove it, soak and agitate in cleaner, rinse and dry. I have Shimano on my cyclocross bike; it gets very dirty and muddy and. for this reason, I would never use Campy 10-speed unless I had my own mechanic. The 10-speed chain is also very narrow and the cog cluster is very tight, so I wonder how well it would do in really muddy conditions. Even the cyclocross pros who use Campy use 9-speed...

Excellent summary (you are a journalism professor, right?) :)

And since I am an old geezer who does not race, I solved the 10s chain problem by getting a 3x9 setup, which also gets me some more gears for the mountains I will be riding sometime soon.

But you can break the chain, can't you, if you buy an expensive tool, and always break a different link? Or replace the broken link each time?

Cheers...Gary

You can break the 10-speed chain, you just have to buy that $50 campy tool to do it. Some people have used a chaintool and just broken the link like a regular chain and had no problems.

The other choice is the Wipperman 10-speed chain which you can break with your hands (just like the sram powerlinks). Plus that chain is only $30.

Really, the chain has become a non-issue happily!
Oh, you forgot to mention how much more beautiful campy stuff is. :) There is no doubt it looks much better. Shimano has a ...functional beauty but Campy is out and out Gor-gee-ous.

But your right, it really is a preference thing and when I'm riding I never pay attention to what group someone is using.... who cares, right?