Folding Bikes - $ Raleigh 20 What do U think?

I'm looking for a folder to complete my "car-free armada" :D I've heard you all say a lot of good things about the Raleigh 20, so I'm thinking of getting one. I found a guy in my area with a Raleigh 20 that he is selling for $250. So far I only recieved a picture of the bike, but no description. I'll post a description once I get it. Please let me know what you think. BTW, In a folder I'm looking for reliability, and something that will last & last.

-Will it fit me (I'm 6'2")?

-Is the Raleigh 20 the great folder everyone makes it sound like?

-Is $250 too much, or just right for a bike like this?

-Would I be just as well of with a cheaper used Dahon?



Thanks in advance,
Mehow

I'm looking for a folder to complete my "car-free armada" :D I've heard you all say a lot of good things about the Raleigh 20, so I'm thinking of getting one. I found a guy in my area with a Raleigh 20 that he is selling for $250. So far I only recieved a picture of the bike, but no description. I'll post a description once I get it. Please let me know what you think. BTW, In a folder I'm looking for reliability, and something that will last & last.

-Will it fit me (I'm 6'2")?

-Is the Raleigh 20 the great folder everyone makes it sound like?

-Is $250 too much, or just right for a bike like this?

-Would I be just as well of with a cheaper used Dahon?



Thanks in advance,
Mehow



I don't know what your standards are, so I can't address the quality of the folder, but last time I was in LA I bought a twenty on Ebay in what looks to be similar condition--OK but not great--for $50 from a guy in north hollywood. I think $250 is too much.

i think $250 is too much. i got mine for $70cdn. there's better deals out there.

I think that's a bit steep. You could get a new folder, even a single-speed Dahon, and invest the same amount in the new bike as you would "fixing up" the old '20. Likely an older bike (unless in mint shape) would need to have work done. Even if you do it yourself, there are parts costs.

(bottom bracket, drivetrain, brakes, headset...)

EDIT: to be clear, the 20 is a fantastic platform bike. I doubt you'd go wrong if you found one cheaply and fixed it up.

Cheg's is my all-time fav tricked out Raleigh 20. To me, it looks better than most modern folders.
You be the judge: http://home.comcast.net/~cheg01/r20.html

reliability, and something that will last & last.

Well then i think you can't go wrong with a Twenty, in terms of reliability and durability there is nothing more proven i'd say. That's because there are no other folders that have been around for so long and whose use has been so documented. But if you pick a diff. make, i'd strongly suggest steel/chromoly not Alu, that should ensure it lasts (not to say all Alu folders won't).

-Will it fit me (I'm 6'2")?

Well i am 6 feet and it fits great. I think there are a lot bigger riders using Twenties. You will need to replace the stock seatpost for sure and may even consider a steel one so as to have little to no chance of it sheering or bending. Tweaking your riding position (handlebars, stem, seat) is important for a nice fit as always.

-Is the Raleigh 20 the great folder everyone makes it sound like?

I just got one and tweaked it out a couple of weeks ago and IMO it is really really good. And i am a really picky guy when it comes to bikes. I had a normal sized MTB that i totally customized and made exactly to my preference and it is now gathering dust. The Twenty is just is a lot better in terms of weight, steering, versatility, acceleration etc.

-Is $250 too much, or just right for a bike like this?

Sounds like way too much. For that kind of money you could buy one way cheap in England (there are tons of them there) and maybe even have it shipped and still be off cheaper. But according to the other people here much better deals are to be had stateside too.

It does look in pretty good condition and i wonder if the wheels are new Aluminium ones..? That would make for a substantially better deal. Even so i'd just tell the guy no way and offer a 100 and when he says no call him in a while to see if he is willing to deal.

-Would I be just as well of with a cheaper used Dahon?

I severely doubt it. Dahon (and i am talking about older/cheaper ones) are often not as standardized as a Twenty and most aren't as rugged. Plus some are Alu. Quite some of the older Dahon's have kindoff a bad reputation in terms of durability and ride quality but i have only heard that, not seen it myself.

One thing to bear in mind is that if you buy a stock Twenty you will almost definately have to replace the Wheels and Seatpost at very least to make a rather good bike. If you want to make a great bike i'd say replace everything except maybe the pannier.

This implies that to attain a cheap and really good Twenty you will have to bide your time and shop around and invest between $ 100 and $ 300 in new components next to the purchase cost. I can almost promise it will be worth it though!

Maybe you have already read my page but if not i am just gonna plug it once more, the URL is below.

Best of luck and please let us know how you fare!

It sounds like much much too much to me. I wouldn't think of paying more than £20 even for a good un ($30?). It's a cool enough little thing, but you can get a LOT more bike for $250. I think Sheldon's article has pushed the price up!

Wow! Thanks for the comments.

After reading everything you guys wrote, I've realized that I don't have the luxury of rebuilding an old folder, even if it has a great reputation. I'm now leaning towards getting a NEW Dahon S1 single speed $200 or a Dahon Boardwalk D3/or D7 $250-$300. My budget is at about $300 max. I searched for reviews on these models, but didn't find much. So, what are your impressions of these models?


http://www.dahon.com/boardwalkd3.htm


My main reason for getting a folder is to use it on rainy days along with the bus, when I would prefer not use my "nicer" crossbike. But, I'll also use it on fair weather days when using my other bikes wouldn't be possible; For security reasons I never leave my LeMond Poprad locked up on the street, instead I always have it at my side. Problems arise when I'm not allowed to bring it into certain buildings, which often limits where I can go. I imagine that people/buildings would be more understanding of a folded-up folder.

Thanks again for all your comments so far . . . I hope you all can answer my new questions.

-Mehow

I read the thread on here (BikeForums/Folders) about the Dahon S1. For ~$200 I can't go wrong I think. BTW I like the simplicity of a single speed.

Yeh, those are decent bikes but they cannot compare to the Twenty (particularly in time tested durability thang). Not to be a rabid advocate but i wouldn't rule out the 20 completely. U can find them cheap and upgrading them doesn't have to be that costly as my page shows. Also remember that the Dahon's are entry level and riding a folder is often addictive. Don't be surprised if 2 years (perhaps even way sooner) down the line you find that you have outgrown your Dahon and need to Modify or completely replace it too... What about the Downtube, i'd say that one competes pretty well with the Dahons u mention.

Wow! Thanks for the comments.

After reading everything you guys wrote, I've realized that I don't have the luxury of rebuilding an old folder, even if it has a great reputation. I'm now leaning towards getting a NEW Dahon S1 single speed $200 or a Dahon Boardwalk D3/or D7 $250-$300. My budget is at about $300 max. I searched for reviews on these models, but didn't find much. So, what are your impressions of these models?


http://www.dahon.com/boardwalkd3.htm


My main reason for getting a folder is to use it on rainy days along with the bus, when I would prefer not use my "nicer" crossbike. But, I'll also use it on fair weather days when using my other bikes wouldn't be possible; For security reasons I never leave my LeMond Poprad locked up on the street, instead I always have it at my side. Problems arise when I'm not allowed to bring it into certain buildings, which often limits where I can go. I imagine that people/buildings would be more understanding of a folded-up folder.

Thanks again for all your comments so far . . . I hope you all can answer my new questions.

-Mehow

Take a look at the Downtube folders. The non-suspension model (well, it has front suspension) is $290, full suspension $390. Both come with cases that would normally be $40 accessories with other bikes.
http://downtube.com/catalog/

Excellent value in their price classes.

Mehow are you a messenger or something?The S1 would be an easy conversion to a fixie although the wheel built up ,would not be cheap.

Mehow are you a messenger or something?The S1 would be an easy conversion to a fixie although the wheel built up ,would not be cheap.


I'm not a messenger, but a college student who is part-time employed. When I talked about having trouble getting into certain builds, it is because I take my a bike ever where I go (being car-free). BTW I am planning on building up a fixed gear, but I image that it will be off of a road bike frame. But, I was thinking of converting a folder into a fixed gear :)

Yeh, those are decent bikes but they cannot compare to the Twenty (particularly in time tested durability thang). Not to be a rabid advocate but i wouldn't rule out the 20 completely. U can find them cheap and upgrading them doesn't have to be that costly as my page shows. Also remember that the Dahon's are entry level and riding a folder is often addictive. Don't be surprised if 2 years (perhaps even way sooner) down the line you find that you have outgrown your Dahon and need to Modify or completely replace it too... What about the Downtube, i'd say that one competes pretty well with the Dahons u mention.

Okay the Twenty is back ON :D

That's a great site v1nce . . . Twenty's were my top choice, but I've had trouble finding a Twenty here in So. Cal. I imagine that folders are more common in cities where public transportation is more common, unlike in car crazy So. Cal. If anyone knows of one for sale please let me know, because I'm still pretty interested in a Twenty. Plus I like the styling of the Twenty over any other folder I've seen.

v1nce, I'll keep your page in mind and will look into it further . . . if you don't mind I would hope that you could be a source of information if I was to find a Twenty :)

Take a look at the Downtube folders. The non-suspension model (well, it has front suspension) is $290, full suspension $390. Both come with cases that would normally be $40 accessories with other bikes.
http://downtube.com/catalog/

Excellent value in their price classes.

af895, the Downtube seems to offer a lot more in comparison to the Dahons. The Downtume VIII ($289) seems like a fine model, but I'm not a big fan of any type of a suspension. I like the more direct feeling and efficiency of a non-suspension bike. Are they only sold through their only site, or do they have local dealers? Would you guys consider Downtubes as "higher quailty" in comparison to the Dahons?

Mehow: I don't own a DT but do a search in this forum: there've been long discussions about them, overwhelmingly positive. I don't know of any source other than direct from the manufacturer, however, with folders you often either have to settle for what your LBS carries or mail order.

Your challenge in finding a Raleigh 20 is not that So-Cal likes cars. It's that So-Cal is far, far from Nottingham England where you'll likely find the highest density of Raleighs. ;) Same in my city, Ottawa, Canada - and we have EXCELLENT public transportation. If you want a 20, you may have to bid on something from overseas...but then, the shipping jacks that price way up. :\

On the note of suspension: on 20" wheels, the short-throw suspension typical on folders doesn't share a lot in common with what's found on downhill/mountain bikes.

It's function is to make the feel of the small wheels more like larger ones. In my experience with a full-suspension KHS, that's exactly what it does. (sort of the difference between riding with 120psi and 75psi tires over a bumpy road, if that makes sense)

FWIW, you can always take the suspension fork off and put an inexpensive straight fork on. I imagine a short ride on garbage day would net you a BMX fork left by the curb, bike-et-al.

Dahon componentry ranges from entry level to mid-high-end. The DT seems to be good, mid-range componentry that should last. It's not el-stinko nor is it Dura-Ace.

Others will have to give you feedback on their own DT's but the frames seem solid. One owner posted a link to a video of them riding down a flight of stairs on their DT VIII FS. (!)

Hmm IMO (and i don't own one!) higher quality i don't know,.. that totally depends on the Dahon Model. But i'd say they are very close to the quality of the cheaper Dahons you were considering. I'd also say they are much more "bang for you buck". I think they only sell them on-line. IMO in that price range they are the nicest best value (carry bag, features, design etc.) folders that can be bought new, bar none. I personally think it a small pity that the Frame is aluminium, is not to my taste but that is a personal thing. Plus i think if i ever bought one i would invest a bit more cash in order to upgrade a few components like the saddle and such. Tehn again the Dahon's are pretty decent too, it is matter of what features are more important to you.

Raliegh 20s were the best folders available even 15 years ago, but they haven't been imported in 20 years. Dahons have alloy wheels, chromoly frames, V-brakes, your choice of every kind of drive train from single speed to 8 speed derailers, and better riding position for tall riders, all for a reasonble price. You can get a single speed Dahon for the price of the Phil Wood bottom bracket you will need to upgrade to an alloy crank, which is standard on most Dahons.

EM

I just got back from my well trusted LBS. After talking to them they advised me to not go with the Single Speed Dahon Boardwalk ($200) because it has a coaster hub. After telling them about my other bikes and my style of riding they recommanded the Boardwalk 7 Speed ($300) with a free wheel. They said that over the past 4 years Dahon's quailty has improved, and that they recommand them.

I'm kinda big on supporting my local "Mom & Pop" bike shop, so I've made getting the Boardwalk 7 Speed as "Plan B" if I don't find a inexpensive Raleigh 20 soon.

Look what I found . . .

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Raleigh-Folder-Twenty-Folding-Bicycle-DL-25-NR_W0QQitemZ7185248971QQcategoryZ98084QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Raleigh-folding-20-bicycle-bike-folder-Stuery-3sp_W0QQitemZ7184466030QQcategoryZ42314QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

20's have typically been selling for around $150 on ebay in good condition. Then you have to add shipping if it's not local.

Look what I found . . .

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Raleigh-Folder-Twenty-Folding-Bicycle-DL-25-NR_W0QQitemZ7185248971QQcategoryZ98084QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Raleigh-folding-20-bicycle-bike-folder-Stuery-3sp_W0QQitemZ7184466030QQcategoryZ42314QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Wow! Those look like they're in pretty good shape! Did you send a message to the senders asking about rust, scratches? Very cool...

Ahhh! :eek:

I keep changing my mind! I talked to the owner of the bike pictured in my original post. It turns out that he rebuilds Raleigh 20's as a hobby. He claims that this white Twenty is "rare" :rolleyes: . He seemed like a nice guy though, and by the end of our conversation he was recommanding that I get the Dahon Boardwalk 7 speed! So it's pretty much final that I'm going to get the Boardwalk 7 with a pair of "Delux" fenders from Dahon (Total $330). I was also thinking of getting the Mariner 7 ($330) which seems like a Boardwalk with fenders and a rack, but I prefer the forest green color of the Boardwalk over the Blue of the Mariner. Plus the Boardwalk had a special derallier that is compact, in contrast to the bulky one on the Mariner.

I'll get the Boardwalk 7 within the next 2 weeks. I'll post pictures, and later a review once I've used it.

Thanks for all your opinions and ideas, I really did appreciate your comments.

Best Regards,
Mehow

Well i guess this is after the fact for sure but:

I think white 20's are rare, it is the first one i have ever seen. Not that i give a rats ass har har, i am not a vintage nut. Also that bike in the first was a pretty sweet deal!

@eddy: Either you haven't read the other Twenty Threads and websites or are just not keeping up... ;-) There are other (much) cheaper ways to go cotterless on 20's. No offense.

Ahhh! :eek:

I keep changing my mind! I talked to the owner of the bike pictured in my original post. It turns out that he rebuilds Raleigh 20's as a hobby. He claims that this white Twenty is "rare" :rolleyes: . He seemed like a nice guy though, and by the end of our conversation he was recommanding that I get the Dahon Boardwalk 7 speed! So it's pretty much final that I'm going to get the Boardwalk 7 with a pair of "Delux" fenders from Dahon (Total $330). I was also thinking of getting the Mariner 7 ($330) which seems like a Boardwalk with fenders and a rack, but I prefer the forest green color of the Boardwalk over the Blue of the Mariner. Plus the Boardwalk had a special derallier that is compact, in contrast to the bulky one on the Mariner.

I'll get the Boardwalk 7 within the next 2 weeks. I'll post pictures, and later a review once I've used it.

Thanks for all your opinions and ideas, I really did appreciate your comments.

Best Regards,
Mehow

FWIW, the "Mariner" Dahon models supposedly have some kind of anti-corrosion coating on the inside of the tubes - the name denoting they're taylored to boaters. (salt water and such) Can't comment on it's usefulness. I just spray the inside of my CrMo frames with linseed oil and let it try to a plasticy finish.

I'm sure you'll be pleased with the Dahon so go into that choice feeling good. No work involved in getting it running - it'll likely serve you well for years. The hinge on the Dahons is hot-stuff... really well designed. :)

Linseed oil eh? That is interesting i have some lying around. How do you spray it in there? Do you need a particular kind? How do you let it dry to a hard finish?

Thanks.,
V.

Search these forums and there should be a bunch of entries on linseed oil. In short, I found an empty plant mister, cleaned it out thoroughly and put a bit of the oil in. (it doesn't take much - maybe half a cup)

Set the mister to somewhere between "spray" and "jet" so you can reach the far end of the tubes. Once it's in there, rotate the frame around a bunch of times.

It helps to work in a warm enviroment and/or heat the frame up with a hair-dryer to get the oil flowing. Have plenty of paper towel handy as this stuff is going to eek out of every opening and it's much easier to get off while still a liquid.

You want every unpainted, interior surface to be covered except the seat tube as that makes it difficult to slide the seat post up and down.

Takes days to dry but eventually hardens to a plasticy finish. Acts as a vapour barrier to inhibit corrosion. (FWIW, CrMo is pretty corrosion resistant already so this just adds a level of protection - perhaps useful if you're near salt water)

Can't hurt.

Hey Thanks! Didn't think to search the forums, duh. Sounds like a good idea though i don't live that near the Ocean and i wonder if treating my Twenty is prudent or overkill. It is in very good condition and the paint on the outside seems very good. But then again it def. can't hurt if i want to keep this bike "for the ages".

Hey Thanks! Didn't think to search the forums, duh. Sounds like a good idea though i don't live that near the Ocean and i wonder if treating my Twenty is prudent or overkill. It is in very good condition and the paint on the outside seems very good. But then again it def. can't hurt if i want to keep this bike "for the ages".

Something I didn't think of: is the '20 CrMo or carbon steel?

If it's carbon, I'd go to extra lengths to protect it as it's more prone to corrosion in any environment than CrMo - either linseed or something else. (see below)

This isn't a new bike so there may be some corrosion already. Obviously nothing *serious* as it isn't showing through the paint but you might go a different route than linseed oil: a rust-inhibiting catylist.

Linseed will help protect the exposed inner metal from moisture and oxygen but a rust proofing catylist will render the surface inert. The place to find it is at a airport maintenance organization. They use several products for inhibiting rust on CrMo aircraft parts. (I believe "LPS" and "Boe-shield" are both trade-names - make sure you get the catylist type not a simple WD-40 type oily spray)

. . . a rust proofing catylist will render the surface inert . . . I believe "LPS" and "Boe-shield" are both trade-names - make sure you get the catylist type not a simple WD-40 type oily sprayCatalyst? Inert? To my knowledge, both Boeshield and LPS rust inhibitor are merely paraffin in an evaporating solvent. No reaction with the metal. Ce n'est pas vrai? I absolutely agree that waxy sprays give long-lasting protection while oily ones do not.

BTW, Boeshield makes an excellent chain lube. Before I knew about Boeshield I was one of those guys who dipped his bicycle chain in hot wax. . .


(http://www.boeshield.com/t9bikeinfo.htm)

HA! Hadn't seen that bottle before. Cute.

Boeshield may not have a catylitic version but I'm 99% sure there's a variant of LPS that is. Again, your local aviation maintenance shop should know. If they don't, Google will. :)

By catylist, I do mean something that reacts with the surface in an oxygen environment to make the metal inert as opposed to a wax, paint, oil or whatever that simply coats the metal.

Allright then, once again i learn that the more i think i know.....

I think the Twenty has rather thick (carbon) steel tubes and by the looks of mine it has had little contact with moist or silty environments. None the less, i will def. consider this by the time of my next overhaul as funds are somewhat scare at the moment. I am not even sure of some the tubing allows much/any acces,.. Particularly the thick horizontal tube. It would seem rather strange to drill a hole in a tube in order to rust proof it...?

Thank you both for all the info!

I was in the market for a folder in late 2003. I considered purchasing a used Twenty or a simple Dahon 1 speed. I chose the one speed because: availability of the model and the parts should I need them, Dahon is only 15 miles from where I live in Southern California, the one speed was upgraded to a three speed of my choice, added another brake of my choice, folded more compactly, reflected thirty years of additional technological improvements, price, color (jet black), chrome fenders/mudguards, and fits me perfectly.

I hope you find your introduction to the world of folders as exciting as mine has been!

@ Folder Fanatic: Hey hey HEY! Ha ha. No just kidding, don't wanna start a 'Cheap Dahon VS Twenty" flamewar. But it sounds like in your experience, locality and circumstances the Dahon was definately the better and cheaper way to go. In my circumstances it was exactly the other way around. Just thought i'd add this in case in more newbies surf by. That way they get both sides of the coin/story.

Glad you are also super happy with your folder! That's is what it is all about i reckon, no matter what one rides.

Don't worry Vince. I am not trying to start to flame anyone. Actually, I am straddling the bike model fence in ways that you can't imagine. Or can if I told you about the other bike I presently own. It was the one that the Dahon was selected from and modeled after. It is my beloved old-styled Ladies frame English three speed non-folder with simple, yet durable components and accessories and a steel frame. The only problem with it is the difficulty I have in getting parts for it (not impossible, just difficult). That is the real pressing reason I have in being pushed toward the newer Dahon along with the other things listed above. I basically wanted the similar riding experience my faithful old bike has given me-yet has the option to fold and fit in compact areas. Newbies should keep that in mind when selecting bikes for their use. I am speaking from experience for me, rather than trying to discourage anyone from any particular bike-and to keep at least 2 bikes. That way one could have their cake and eat it too-and satisfy different riding needs with a different bike.

This the advice I give to anyone who is in the market for any bike. Always carry a written wish list of what you want out of the new or used bike when you shop. This will save you money and give you the satisfication of eliminating most costly mistakes when you are in the process of negotiation with the seller.

In my circumstances it was exactly the other way around. Just thought i'd add this in case in more newbies surf by. That way they get both sides of the coin/story.

Glad you are also super happy with your folder! That's is what it is all about i reckon, no matter what one rides.

Do you travel with your twenty? Or is it purely a riding bike? I just brought both a twenty and a Dahon to Ireland, and each had their particular ups and downs of packing (though both flew free!)

@ Folder Fanatic. Wise words, agree with all of them. I like the idea of 'one bike to rule them all'. But it is true if one is an avid biker that likes to do diff. things on bikes, having 2 or even 3 makes sense. Especially if you want to go the Car Free road.
Cool that you are into the old (english) three speeds. I love them too. Sure they weigh a ton but what comfort and reliability! Nice machines.

I must say in general i am most impressed with pretty much all the regular posters in the folding forums. Very nice and helpfull people that know and think a thing or two! The one time i had fairly minor disagreement/miscommunication with someone we ended up totally cool with eachothers points of view. Very nice (sub) forum!! Like it here ha ha.

As for myself: I have some strong opinions when it comes to bikes, design and durability. But i also very much realize that what is heaven for me might be hell for the next person. I actually bought my Twenty from a nice Older lady that barely rode it. It boggled my mind, she bought it in a store (for presumably much more cash) and then rode it like 4 times and sold it quite cheap. Then when i asked it turned out she didn't use it because she needed to lugg it up and down stairs to reach the trains on her commute. She was scared to fall down/found it very heavy for her aging body. For her a nice and light modern simple Alu folder is much better than the Twenty... I totally understood that. Diffferent strokes for diff. folks.

@ Pharnazabos. I use it as my daily rider, shopper etc.

That involves either cruising or cycling at maniacal speeds during which the fast, manouverable and tough small wheels and tires are great. I can speed up like crazy and dodge things quick too. That's maybe what i liked the best about small wheeled folders, their amazing handling and acceleration.

Also do rides up to about 60 KM / 5 hours or so (ride out to a nearby city, hang out for a few hours and ride back). Thirdly: I visit other Dutch cities by train. So i fold it (only the hinge) so it is "Train Legal". Then i hop out and ride around the new place in style. But one of the reasons i bought it is that i intend to emmigrate. I want to move to Either Austr. or New Z. I intend to first fly out there with the 20 and check out some eco villages by hitch hiking with my bike (looks pretty non threatening). Also when i make the final move to Oceania i want to arrive having a great bike to explore my new surroundings.

So i would love to hear your travel/folding etc stories! Interested in how long it takes you to dissamble both bikes, how easy they fit in suitcases of which size etc.