Hey all,

[i posted this over at roadbikereview.com too, but i thought i'd try other forums as well]

I have been riding for about a month or so now, and i started off with some easy rides, slowly building up both time & distance, but unfortunately i live in a pretty hilly area, and just got frustrated having to struggle and climb my way home. this led me to focus on working harder and harder on hills, and now i can get home without having to dismount or walk it up.

Therein lies my question; in the process of pushing on hills, i have managed to build a small amount of stength/endurance/etc.. but my LongDistanceSlow for the first few months of riding has now been shot because i find now want to keep a higher intensity and push harder even in the flats (granted, my cadence is NOT high AT ALL while climbing). i am not sprinting or doing intervals or anything like that, but somehow i have skipped ahead and am now finding myself doing a higher cadnece on the flats.

am i wrong in doing this? should i be disciplined and restrain myself from pushing hard? should i be driving my bike down the hill and sticking to flats, keeping the LDS thing going?

please understand, i am not trying to race, or be a racer, but i enjoy high intensity workouts. that being said, i am riding mostly as fitness, and secondly as recreation. i would like to do centuries and maybe tours. i currently ride about 3-4 days per week, rides vary from 20-40mi's.

any help is greatly appreciated, and yes, i just ordered both books "serious cyclist" and "the training bible" which i found alot of you referenced as good books to get. my LBS has been supportive and informative, but i have always found there are many answers form experienced riders.

TIA
etowns

I guess I'm not understanding the question. You think that pushing yourself isnt good? That is how you get your heart rate high enough to do any good. So yeah, its okay and even good to push yourself. Keep up the good work.

it could very well be that i dont understand base training, and some further research on my part may be in order. with that said, i thought base training for a new cyclist was about LongDistanceSlow, not pushing yourself but slowly building a "base" to build capillaries that allow more oxygen to fuel muscles, thus raising anaerobic threshold, and THIS is where power/strength would come from so that your body could handle the time when you DO start pushing harder. from my view, this seems contrary to what i am doing as described in the original post.

like i said, i am new to road cycling so i could be completely off as to what LDS is.

eT

Check out this article:

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

It's a bit detailed, but it effectively debunks the myth that "base" training must include long hours of riding a slow pace.

Don't worry, if you have only been riding for a month you are not pushing yourself too hard. You are simply beginning to adapt physiologically to riding (IMHO). Ride regularly at a good pace, and the results will come. Some would argue that your entire first year is really only base mileage anyway!

Just don't kill yourself and ride pushing yourself, keeping in mind the need for good nutrition and adequate rest (if you are too tired to ride, skip it, there is time to prepare for the Tour later :p ).

And welcome to riding! :D

I think you are doing well and asking a good question. I don't think you'll "harm" your base by workouts of various intensity under 40 miles in distance. Your body should send you the essential signals, like pain or a sense that you are spinning off your pedals becasue it's too easy. Maintaining a cadence of 80 - 90 should yeild you a good base.

I also live in a very hilly area, so hilly it's hard for me to do easy recovery rides. So my weekly rides are between 15 and 25 miles of pretty intense (for me) riding.

On weekends, I like to find group rides that are flatter and long. We also have a rails to trails path near us that gives me a good 80 mile ride out and back and it's nearly perfectly flat!

But I'll tell you, riding long distances with varying terrain is nothing like a short, intense, hilly ride. The first time I rode that 80 mile flat ride, it kicked my butt!

Since the two are so different, that's why I like to mix them up. Short, intense local rides, and as many good long varying terrain rides on the weekends. Best of both worlds!

Az

A big problem with training is that people don't know or understand correct terminology. LSD is not long slow distance... it's long STEADY distance... riding at a sustained pace for a long period of time. Of course, you won't be able to ride a balls to the wall type of ride for hours on end, but you ride at your highest sustained effort for several hours, and use your heart rate monitor to train around that pace (ie, I like to do rides 5 beats below my threshold, 5 beats above my threshold, and rides right at my threshold).

But no... if you're doing balls to the wall, all out efforts and trying to build base, that's not the way to go.

Koffee

please understand, i am not trying to race, or be a racer, but i enjoy high intensity workouts. that being said, i am riding mostly as fitness, and secondly as recreation. i would like to do centuries and maybe tours. i currently ride about 3-4 days per week, rides vary from 20-40mi's.

Then don't worry about it. The only thing you need to concern yourself with is not burning yourself out mentally or phyically (just read you body clues on soreness and tiredness) and not to push to hard to cause injury.

My experience after not biking much for 20yrs was to start riding a 9mi route 2x per weekday. I started out the first month just riding it. Then I rode it hard at high intensity all out, etc. every time. Worked down from 40min to just over 20min over a course of 9mo or so. I never once rode further than this. Then I rode a 40mi group ride and found I could keep up in fast group at same high intensity as I rode my 9mi route and it felt fine, soon after a 60mi with same result. Maybe not the right way to do it, but to point out that without following the 'training rule book' I became fast and fit. It can be pointed out that if I had followed the 'rules' I'd be faster and fitter quicker, but that is irrelevant to me as I am not racing.

All I am saying is relax and enjoy. After a year of this regular riding you will then have a good idea of where to take yourself and how to fine tune.

Al

Yeah if you go over 60% of your max HR at any point during base training, you have to start all over again :D

Just kidding. If you're not racing, don't have any particular event in mind that you are training for, then just get out there and ride. Tune in to and listen to your body. If you're capable of busting it up the hills, by all means, do so. If you don't feel up to it, take an easier day.

People can really get way too hung up on these training programs, and become slaves to them. For professional/elite athletes, there may be some benefit to this kind of discipline. But for most of the rest of us, the difference is likely insignificant in terms of performance.

thanks for the link...great article. some of it went over my head, so it took a couple readings to get. what i think is valuable is that it provides a good springboard for me to look into this further.

thanks

interesting.....so building a base is if i keep a steady pace/cadence/speed up over a long period of time. i know i am not in any condition to sustain 5beats below or above threshold for very long right now, but say starting at 80% of max hr and raising it over time and sustaining it would lead to better results(?) and would be the correct definition of LSD? how long do you keep this up? is it a 3 or 4 hour ride, or do you mean intervals? or is it mileage?

Try to do a 3-4 hour ride at a steady pace, about 50-75 miles. "Pace" means a combination of speed & effort, perhaps watts power-output may be best to describe "pace". Slow down on the uphills, speed up on the downhills so that you're burning off the same number of calories/hour. Don't worry about HR. Just monitor it and see what it ends up being when you can do the entire ride at a steady pace. If you can't do the time/distance at a certain pace, slow down a little the next ride. If you finish with speed to spare, add a little more to the next ride. This pacing is really completely independent of your LT or max-HR. It's really to develop good pedaling form, butt stamina for sitting in the saddle, develops a dense capillary network to supply blood & oxygen to your muscles, extends nerve-ending to recruit unused muscle-fibres, train your energy-system to digest food and deliver it to your muscles quickly, etc.

It really don't "hurt" to push a little higher than this pace on a long 3-4 hour ride, just that there are other workouts you can do that will be more beneficial. It's easy to get trapped in no-mans-land of training where you don't go far enough and/or you don't go fast enough. If you can pick it up some during this kind of an endurance ride and still finish at your average-speed, then you've left some speed out, you can go faster next time at a steady pace. And if you're gonna pick it up, then you might as well cancel the endurance ride and do an all-out sprint or interval workout, which will be way, way more beneficial than some minor speed-bump on an endurance ride.

As Koffee has pointed out LSD according to Lydiard advocates is not Long Slow Distance. Lydiard talks of best aerobic effort. When doing endurance rides I look to do PBs in terms of time and ave speed within my HR (or power zones if I had the dosh) zones.

Lydiard also had his runners do sprints all year round. Not many just enough to keep them sharp. He prefered this to weight training.

Base is important but make sure it is a base that is relevent to your cycling goals. If your goal event is two hours long then the ability to ride fast at steady state for 2:30hrs is all the base you need. Once you can do this start to work on getting faster.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

to everyone:

thanks so much for your input. i now have more terms i can search and topics to look into (possibly more questions to have answered :o ). i have received my books by friel and carmichael, and can begin my reading. you all have been very helpful. and as noisebeam said, if i "don't plan to race, don't worry about it". problem is, i am competitive with myself. i love pushing myself to the limits. i love doing better than last time, i love going a mile more, a mph faster, etc. no, racing is not in my future, but fitness and the joy i feel when cycling is. i am not content slowly watching the scenery go by. i see it as a plus that i got away from the gym, joined the people in the great outdoors and plunked down a good sum on a nice bike i can ride for years to come that i can grow into. no more elliptical trainer and fitness bike (i still do weights).

I've realized my main reasons for asking in the original post about spoiling training is that i don't want to burn myself out. when friends call, if i join a club, heck, if i meet people here, i want to be able to ride with them, not catch up to them. more for camaraderie, not competition.

i feel like I'm on a soapbox, so I'm stepping off. all in all, thanks. if your ever in l.a., in about a year, look me up, I'd love to ride with you.....[you've gotta give me that time to get into shape :o]

i have found my goal is to climb angeles crest and make it all the up to the observatory at mt wilson. once that is done, i will work on bettering my time :eek: lol!

thanks again
etowns!

A big problem with training is that people don't know or understand correct terminology. LSD is not long slow distance... it's long STEADY distance... riding at a sustained pace for a long period of time. Of course, you won't be able to ride a balls to the wall type of ride for hours on end, but you ride at your highest sustained effort for several hours, and use your heart rate monitor to train around that pace (ie, I like to do rides 5 beats below my threshold, 5 beats above my threshold, and rides right at my threshold).

But no... if you're doing balls to the wall, all out efforts and trying to build base, that's not the way to go.

Koffee

As a runner, I was taught that LSD is Long, Slow Distance. The phrase was originally coined by Joe Henderson:

http://www.joehenderson.com/lsdbook/175.html

..., and as far as I know, has been adapted to other endurance sports, such as cycling.
.

From the link above:
I'm protective of this work, though it wasn't so much a
book as an extended magazine article published in its
own 64-page package. It sold modestly and fell out of
print before the first running boom struck full force in the
1970s. To claim that this thin, short-lived booklet
influenced the course of running for a generation is
absurd.

However, the name far outlived the booklet. People who
talk of LSD today, and link me to it in terms flattering or
critical, probably never read the original. They don't
know what I didn't say.


.
To the OP, just keep your intensity below lactate threshold (perceived effort is 'comfortably hard') and you'll still gain aerobic benefits. Once you start riding more anaerobically, you start detracting from your aerobic base (according to Arthur Lydiard and other reknowned endurance sports coaches).

.

To the OP, just keep your intensity below lactate threshold (perceived effort is 'comfortably hard') and you'll still gain aerobic benefits. Once you start riding more anaerobically, you start detracting from your aerobic base (according to Arthur Lydiard and other reknowned endurance sports coaches).

This is one of those expert opinions that doesn't have a basis in science. Just about any activity that gets your heart rate above about 65% of maximum will improve your aerobic systems. With the exception of glycogen storage, aerobic capacity increases with heart rate attained during training, all the way up to fall-down-exhausted sprint intervals.

The fly in the ointment is that you can't exercise as long when you train at a high intensity, so you must balance intensity and volume. The typical "base" period emphasizes lower intensity and higher volume, which minimizes the risk of injury, illness, or overtraining.

As a runner, I was taught that LSD is Long, Slow Distance. The phrase was originally coined by Joe Henderson:

http://www.joehenderson.com/lsdbook/175.html

..., and as far as I know, has been adapted to other endurance sports, such as cycling.
.



.
To the OP, just keep your intensity below lactate threshold (perceived effort is 'comfortably hard') and you'll still gain aerobic benefits. Once you start riding more anaerobically, you start detracting from your aerobic base (according to Arthur Lydiard and other reknowned endurance sports coaches).

.

I don't know the Henderson guy, but I do know that LSD is an important part of periodization training, and periodization training has been around much longer than the 35- 38 years Henderson's been running. He just probably introduced the concept more widely with writing his book on running, and got a lot of press on it. But periodization training has been around since the 1930s... much longer than Henderson's been running.

Koffee

to those interested in this thread:

as i originally posted, i also put this same question/topic on the roadbikereview forum, and quite a bit of good information is being said over there too. i am learning quite a bit from both forums.

link: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=42068

thanks
etowns

To the OP, just keep your intensity below lactate threshold (perceived effort is 'comfortably hard') and you'll still gain aerobic benefits. Once you start riding more anaerobically, you start detracting from your aerobic base (according to Arthur Lydiard and other reknowned endurance sports coaches).

I would like to know where Lydiard said this. If you actually read his books he is an advocate of runs at best aerobic pace (above LT) and points to the folly of slow running nearly as much as he does excessive anaerobic training.

No where did he say that anaerobic will detract from your base. He simply states that too much anaerobic training doesn't allow one the time to build the base in the first place.

Hamish Ferguson\
Cycling Coach

From: http://www.joehenderson.com/archive/486.html


Jan 23, 2005

Lydiard on LSD
RUNNING COMMENTARY 555

Somewhere Arthur Lydiard is shouting: "No, no, NO! You got it all wrong!" He always spoke in italics and exclamation points.

Published tributes labeled as "the father of LSD." He would say they LIBELED him by linking his name to long slow distance training.

I adopted parts of the Lydiard system soon after learning his name in 1960. Even these half-measures led to the best racing of my life, but they had little in common with what came to be known as LSD in my booklet by that title.

When first I met Lydiard, he had heard about the booklet, didn't like it and said so. He had spent the first half of his life perfecting a system. He would spend the second half protecting it against revisionists and explaining it to skeptics.

As far back as 1970 he saw me as a revisionist. He said without prompting as our first interview began, "Aren't you the one who wrote about L-S-D." He spit out those letters, one at a time, as if they left a bad taste in his mouth.

"Slow running is better than no running," he told me, "and it works fine for joggers. But my athletes do NOT run slow. They go as fast as they can without going into oxygen debt.

"And they do NOT run long all the time, but only during the endurance-building phase that lasts less than three months. They follow this with period of hill bounding, then sharpening with time trials and sprints."

In the LSD booklet I'd taken pains not to pass off what I was doing and recommending as Lydiard-light. I gave him just four paragraphs of praise. (These came after I'd named another Arthur -- Newton -- "the father of LSD.")

Train slowly, race swiftly -- that's all I did then. I'd never run one 100-mile week, bounded a single hill, or (since embracing LSD) run an interval or time trial. That simple combination of slow training and fast racing worked fine for me, but it wasn't Lydiard. He made sure I knew that, then and later.

Only three more times the next three-plus decades was I in Arthur Lydiard's company. He reminded me each time that the early divorce of his ways from mine was final.

On his final tour of the U.S. last fall, Lydiard visit my hometown of Eugene. I couldn't get to his lecture but dropped by afterward.

He was seated -- a bow to his 87 years, four strokes and two knee replacements. Given that we hadn't connected since the 1980s, I didn't expect him to remember me. My first words were my name.

Without a moment's pause he asked, "Are you still promoting that L-S-D?" This was another dig, a gentle one this time. By now he was shaky in body but as firm as ever in his beliefs.

A photographer asked us for a picture together. Lydiard rose with difficulty and put his arm around my shoulder, both for support and in friendship. His full height didn't even reach mine, but he stood as tall as ever in my eyes.

###

And, then there's these from here:

http://thesis.scu.edu.au/adt-NSCU/uploads/approved/adt-NSCU20040924.144402/public/02whole.pdf

Concurrent Training in Endurance
Athletes: The Acute Effects on
Muscle Recovery Capacity,
Physiological, Hormonal and Gene
Expression Responses Post-Exercise
A thesis submitted for the degree
Doctor of Philosophy
January 2004
Glen Bede Deakin
BHMS (Hons) Southern Cross University, Lismore
School of Exercise Science and Sport Management,
Southern Cross University, Lismore, Australia

So what are you trying to say?

Lydiard says it himself "slow runner is better than nothing but my guys do not run slow".

As for concurrent strength and endurance. Nothing new here.

What's your point?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach