General Cycling Discussion - Nearly a year's gone by

Does a tear or outright sob still come through when you look at newsclips from 9/11? I don't think the pain will ever go away. I didn't know anyone in New York much less the WTC but it doesn't seem to matter. Maybe this should have been posted in The Lounge but it just didn't seem respectful. This week we're going to be reminded about the events of last year and it's going to hit home again. I just want to give everyone a big comforting hug as we relive these events together through the media the next few days.

Yes, this will be a hard week. I didn't know anyone in the disasters, but have family living in NJ. We didn't hear from them for a few days and it was quite scary. I will never forget. I'm a vietnam era veteran and have chemical and biological weapons training and yes it is scary too.
But the main thing I'm focusing on is where my hope comes from.
We shed a lot of tears and felt like someone ripped out our hearts. We've walked through depression and fear and have come out of the other side with hope in our hearts for the future.
Filark

My cousin was right across the building when everything happened. He had a meeting or something. He was scared to death.

when I'm talking with people about the big picture it's just that -- talk. it's pretty abstract; my opinion of current actions and policy and feelgood security measures, etc. but when I hear or remember the individual stories, I can't handle it. there are some stories I've heard through the news or through people I know who were there or who knew people who were there that I just can't finish telling. I choke up and I can't talk anymore. it's just on the outskirts of my mind right now as I'm typing and you know, I've gotten pretty good at making myself not-think about it, when necessary.

there's my friend's brother who lost 24 people on his block. there's my good college friend who was supposed to be in the towers for a business trip that day which had gotten postponed. there's the father on that last plane who was able to reach his wife on his cellphone, who got the kids out of school in time to tell each other goodbye for the last time.

this is probably a good place to stop.

so in the meantime I try to remember what's really important to me. and I resent and outright viciously hate the filler material exploiting this anniversary that I'm seeing more and more often in the media.

you know, everytime I'm on the bike and I have the presence of mind to think about it, I'm thankful that I have a sound body and two good strong legs that take me where I want to go, and when. there's probably a lot more I could say in this vein, but like I said, this is probably a good place to stop.

take care, everyone,

--alex.

I don't want anyone to be offended by this, but please bear in mind that I am not an American, so my emotional connection to the events of last September 11 isn't as strong as yours.

I see September 11 2001 as an historical event. It's amazing how much the pictures of the smoke billowing from the twin towers resembles -- in my eye -- the mushroom cloud over Hiroshima. I don't feel any particyular closeness or personal grief over it; a certain anmount of anger and resignation, perhaps. I find myself thinking about Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Sabra and Shatilla, the killing fields of Cambodia and the Balkans, and My Lai. There's a sense of horror, to be sure, that people could do something like this to other people, but it's not a personal involvement.

What seems to affect me more is what has happened in the year since. I won't get into a discussion of policy, but I find the world has changed in the last year. And it hasn't been a good change. I don't like what the world has become. I blame the terrorists for that, and I also blame the way some people reacted to the terrorists. As an historian, I wish it was possible to openly discuss the historical context of the events of September 11, and how prior events, policies and currents led to them, but it isn't.

I find that, for so many of my American friends, September 11 is not an historical event to be understood, but a mythic moment to be honoured, sanctified and ritualized. I understand that. Families do it with the premature deaths of children by marking each birthday-that-would-have-been; people do it for departed spouses and lovers, communing with was he or she would have thought or done in certain circumstances. You see it in rooms that remain untouched, as shrines.

I guess it's part of mourning.

But I must confess, as an outsider, I can't relate. I find that America has discovered a sense of civic piety that it brings out at almost every possible opportunity. September 11 won't just be memorialized this Wednesday, it has been memorialized -- publicly and piously -- every day for the last year, with the ribbons, the television shows, the televised pronouncements and the way people's voices go low when they refer to the event. I understand and respect this, but it has left me numb. In many ways, after a year, I find that my emotions respond more to that picture of the Hiroshima mushroom cloud or the images of bodies at Srebrenica.

A year later, I just feel tired and inexpressibly saddened -- at the deaths caused in the September 11 attacks, at the world we have created in their wake, and at what the event has become in the national mythology of the United States.

Please accept these comments as the honest words that they are. I really don't mean to insult or offend anyone. I merely wished to express what I personally feel one year later.

I pity the victims of 9/11 and hate those people who planned and stage it:crash: :crash: :crash: :crash: :crash:

I've never been one to be overtly patriotic but last September 11th I realized just how amazing the USA is.

In the weeks following the attack there was a solidarity and pride in being American that I don't believe my generation (Viet Nam era) has ever experiened. It didn't matter what color you were or what your ecconomic status is. We were united to help the victims and prevent future attacks.

Our nation has demonstrated incredible charity and restraint in it's reaction to the events of last year. We didn't "kill em all and let god sort them out." We reacted in a calculated manner. It was not a perfect solution but FAR less violent than it could have been.

I don't know if the world is a better place since September 11th. I suspect it is.

Was Afganistan better off under the Taliban? I think not. Were we safer from terrorism prior to 9/11? Again I think not.

Do we better understand that policies that perpetuate tyranical regimes either through direct support or indifference pose a danger to the world? YOU BET!

While we aren't a perfect nation and we have our share of shortcommings, there is still NO BETTER PLACE ON EARTh!

I don't know about anyone, but I'm getting to be a tad weary of the endless 9/11 coverage. It doesn't mean it was not a horrible tragedy, but the overkill has worn on me. The events haunt me, but what's happened since is just as bad if not worse.

What bothers me about it is that, instead of saying 'gee, let's make the world a more peaceful place' the US used this to abet more warmongering- going on about the axis of evil, drawing more american teenagers into a useless war that will drag on for who knows how long, sending more kids to be cannon fodder, and aiming and toppling more dictators to possibley replace them with worse dictators. It's a disaster because it seems to be causing more disasters, death, doom and tragedy. IT's a disaster because no one seems to have learned anything. Maybe there was this wonderful good will afterward but it doesn't seem to have translated into an effort for world peace.

How about minimizing or not driving a car at all on 9/11/02?
Out oil imports from Saudi, Qatar, Yemen, etc. DIRECTLY fund terrorism. If you love your country, step on the Look pedals, not the gas pedal!

I'm reminded of John Lennon's Imagine lyrics. There was a lot of wisdom there. What if there were no countries, no borders to defend and protect. No reglions to purify. Just what if...

Just like the rest of the country, my chest swelled with patriotic ferver. We must take care that our patriotism is honest. unstaged, spontaneous with malice toward none to borrow the words of another great man who was killed before his time. It's karma. Let's watch our karma.

Originally posted by oceanrider

Just like the rest of the country, my chest swelled with patriotic ferver. We must take care that our patriotism is honest. unstaged, spontaneous with malice toward none to borrow the words of another great man who was killed before his time. [/B]

You mean Ghandi?

I understand what you are saying, velocipedio.

Maybe one reason this event strikes such a nerve with Americans-aside from the obvious ones- is that until September 11th we had been the fortunate ones. We as Americans don't know what it is to live in constant fear of a militia attack on your village, where many of your family are marched away at gun point. We don't live in bombed-out remains of cities with no clean water or electricity, and with no means of rebuilding. To millions of people in this world that is their reality, but not to Americans, and I think we have been walking around with blinders on. How many Americans who sat in their livingrooms and watched the towers come down thought to themselves "This can't be happening, not in America"? We thought we were immune and now we have had our wake-up call.

"With malice towards none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right." Abraham Lincoln

Sept 11 stunned me, and I found myself being
more effected than I would have thought.
I find the rehashing, the constant remembering
just a little bit overblown.
Please Don't get me wrong, I belive like
Velocipedio state that 9-11 is an Historic event
and that we should study it and what caused it.
What I believe is that we should try (and yes
it won't be easy) to remove the emotion from
the telling.
Do we really need "The Babies of 9-11" (about children
of the victims) ? Do we need TV to add more emotion
to an already highly emotional event? I don't think so.

I do believe alot of people need to see the towers
come down again, that the lessons of 9-11 are
already fading. I just don't think we need to treat
it like a made for TV movie.

Ok, Flame away.

Marty

My TV will remain turned off for the next week or so. I'm tired of hearing about Sept 11.

NOt at all, lotek. Let's face it, not everyone is going to feel exactly the same way about everything, and for a year, everyone's been telling you how to feel, how to mourn and how to react, and if you don't all feel the same way you're not a good american. For me, being canadian, that's not an issue, but there was a similar pressure here to all have the same groupthink. Why can't we all decide how we want to feel about it? It's like the tour de France. Not everyone wants to root for Lance Armstrong!

It should keep any of us in the US profoundly grateful to live in a country that at least gives lip service to separating church and state--and to realize that those two things cannot ever be separate enough!

grateful to live in a country that at least gives lip service to separating church and state--and to realize that those two things cannot ever be separate enough!

Amen :-)

That quote, or something very close to it, should be posted in every school room in America.

1. "Does a tear or outright sob still come through when you look at newsclips from 9/11? I don't think the pain will ever go away."

I worked for almost seven years by Battery Park and used to exit from the World Trade Center every day. I used to do a lot of shopping in the Mall below spending hours in those two book stores. My graduation was held on the first floor Hotel just 6 months before that horrible day. Those were beautiful buildings.

I had an interview one day for a job on the 78th floor of tower one about 4 years ago. That interview was one of the worse in my life as the manager made a fool out of me! I still haven't forgotten it. I wonder if he's still alive.

I still bike commute around Ground Zero every day to go to work. It's like riding through a cementary.

UK TV is now flighting lots of programs and interviews about 9/11. The culmination is growing and I think we'll all relive that this coming Wednesday.

Unfortunately, and please understand that I don't intend this as a personal comment against the suffering, but I see a more cynical aspect about it.

I find it too coincidental that Bush and Blair are now rallying to raise support for a war against Iraq. I wonder if they, their spin doctors, and advisors have considered that the best time to gain national support for war against Iraq is to do so while national patriotism is at it's peak?

There was a particularly nasty little ***** by the name of Jo Moore who was a spin doctor for the government here. In a leaked email, she wrote (on the day of the attacks) "now would be a good time to bury bad news." As I say, a nasty little *****.

There is still a lot of pain in the US in particular. To all you guys and families who feel that, our thoughts are with you.

I agree that it was a terrible personal tragedy, but I don't like the way it is being used to garner support for a potential war, when the real reason is thick, black and comes out of the ground.

The tragedy of 9-11 was just that. A horrible tragedy of epic proportions. Clearly the worst tragedy in US history. US history being key. I LOVE my country! I DO believe that it is the best place in the world to live, BUT... I rarely talk about that fact. We Americans do way too much of that. We are arrogant. We think we are the leaders of the world. We influence foreign governments with threats of economic ruin, or promise of economic fortune. Failing that we will threaten with force. Even when the rest of the world tells us to mind our own business, we bluster on.
That is why they hate us.
To borrow the words of another famous American...

"Can't we all just get along?"

I think of all those sattelite photos we see of various places on Earth. You know what stands out most for me?


No lines.

but I don't like the way it is being used to garner support for a potential war, when the real reason is thick, black and comes out of the ground

A journalist once asked, would the Gulf War have happened if Kuwait's only export was peanuts?

I will never forget what I saw that day. I will never grow tired of being reminded of that day through the radio, TV and www.

The constant images of hand wringing and people crying a year later does bother me. I don't want to diminish the attacks and what they meant to the U.S. and the impact it will have on the rest of the world. However,it projects an image of weakness to our potential enemies. America over the past decade or so has become soft and would rather cry about "it" and have the rest of the world feel sorry for us. Thankfully our parents and grandparents didn't react this way to Pearl Harbor. If they had we would have been defeated by the Japaneese and Germans. Another aspect that bothers me is how some victims families are getting rich as a result. People gave the money for the victims and their families but I do not believe it was intended for these folks to never have to work again. I would like to see Americans get mad and stay mad until this menace is wiped off the face of the earth. Fortunately we now have a president who takes his oath seriously and will do what is necessary to complete the task at hand. Watch out Sadaam!

My TV will remain turned off for the next week or so

More people should make that pledge - and for longer than a week.

Regardless of 9-11, I would like to see more in our society turn off the TV and start living life instead of just watching a cheap imitation of life.

Way to go mike, very well put.

I may be sick of all the handwringing and flag waving, but at the bottom of it all is a sadness for NYC- it's such a great city and I can't help but be haunted at the idea that the WTC was a scene of death and teror and carnage. Things like that aren't supposed to happen in NYC, all jokes about murder and crime aside. I even remember thinking, "This can't be happning in NYC! New York is where you go to see the Guggenheim!" I still can't grok that it happened on one level, because the whole thing was just so unreal. But at the same time, I remember thinking when it happened that there was a feeling of inevitability. I remember thinking about the first bombing in 1993 and I thought, "They've come back to finish the job." It was inevitable something like that would happen. But I especially agree with Chewa, that the biggest tragedy is that it's used to justify more violence war and death. Nothing good will come of that. I can't think of one positive outcome to using more teenagers as cannon fodder.

there's no getting around it -- 9/11 was a major tradegy and the emotional factor is there...

but as has been hinted at by a few here, 9/11 will probably be one of the most historical events in the last 50 years and will probably have profound effects on maybe the 1st half of the 21st century.

unfortunately it seems that most of the impact is negative. the outreach to others and compassion is good, but the American pride, although it makes people feel good, is generally not so great a thing. And how the Bush administration is using the 9/11 as a cover for their war plans and oil-protectionism is OUTRAGEOUS --- and b/c of patriotism no one criticises the "patriotic one"

whether or not escalating a war will have any effect or not (i believe little) is anothe issue, but why must we react with so much caring and so much compassion by waging war?

As an American i share the feelings of loss and awe -- there were a number of friends and family about whom i did not know for hours or days.

but in another was, this event SHOULD bring Americans closer to much of the rest of the world for whom SECURITY and SAFETY is not and has never been a given. Americans think waging war means watching a bunch of 24hour newscasts and seeing lots of explosions and watching other nations cave to the wishes and power of the US. but most Americans know very little of the realities and negatives of war, as a war has not been fought on American soil during the lifetime of pretty much anyone alive. thus, in the eyes of Americans it's an abstract thing that is sure to bring good results --- but really, what if we're starting WWIII? what if these terrorists only get more pissed off and become even more determined and launch attacks for the next 20 years as we attempt to locate and blow up each of a few thousand individuals all hiding out throughout the world??

American compassion is good, but American pride is very dangerous...

anyway, i hope i don't offend anyone with my comments and i in no way de-eomtionalize or belittle the acts of terrorism againstr Americans on 9/11/2001...

i only hope the world becomes a better place as a result, rather than a less safe and more hating and war-happy destructive place than before.

I agree that sept 11th, was a horrific day, I also feel that it is being overdone, I mean everything has been blamed on the attacks, from poor grades to bad movies and music, I will not be posting on the internet on Sept 11, in memory of the innocent people who were killed on that fateful day.




OSAMA STILL SUCKS!! :crash: :crash:

When our country declared war on terrorism I believe we made one ominous mistake...we did not define terrorism. I hate to risk sounding like a certain former president who asked for a definition of "is", but one thought in my mind rose above all others when I listened to Bush's statements the day he addressed the nation: where will we draw a line? What is terrorism? Does this mean we will be targeting the IRA? The PLO? Here's one...in our very own country there's the KKK, our very own native son, so to speak. An American terrorist group with a constitutionally protected right to exist?! Are they targets?
The statement was made in so many words that this will be a war on terror. but no parameters are given. If you are declaring war on terrorism, you are declaring war on hatred, and THAT is a dark part of human nature that I'm not sure can be expelled. With that said, is this a "winnable" war?

But I don't want to sound like I forgive this. There has to be a reckoning somehow, with those responsible who did this to so many innocent people. I am not proud of this...so many times last September and afterwards I found myself fantasizing what I would do if I only had a gun in my hand and one clean shot at OBL's head. In a way I am ashamed of that, because the hatred I felt towards him then was the same hatred that made so many Americans in the days after the 11th do terrible things to people of ethnicities that even REMOTELY looked middle-eastern. It made you remember the nissei (sp?) camps after Pearl Harbor. Is it possible to seek revenge and not have hatred?
I saw an image of a man from Kabul holding the tattered body of his dead baby in his arms and screaming. His family was killed in one of the bombings against the Taliban. Now I thought to myself, this man might himself be Taliban, or Al' Quaeda or whatever...but isn't his grief over his dead child the same as a man whose daughter or son was lost in one of those buildings as they fell? Now both of us, myself as an American and that man as the father of a dead child have hatred for those responsible and a need for revenge...and that is why wars still rage.

I was a hotel manager when the OK City tragedy struck. I recall the sense of horror and intense interest in all that happened in those days. In some sense, it was the biggest human caused tradgedy ever to happen on U.S. soil.

I was in 7th grade when someone knocked on the door to our classroom and announced that JFK had been shot. I recall the sense of horror and intense interest in all that happened in those days. In some sense, it was the biggest human caused tragedy ever to happen on U.S. soil.

Likewise, I recall the sense of revulsion and intense interest surrounding the assassinations of RFK and Martin Luther King.

I spent my tour in Vietnam. That too was an intense experience.

I wear a small flag pin and will continue to do so.

It is my hope, but not necessarily my expectation that we avoid yet another "biggest human caused tradgedy." Should we fail to avoid another though, I expect I will just keep wearing my flag pin.

Originally posted by psycholist
When our country declared war on terrorism I believe we made one ominous mistake...we did not define terrorism...
The problem with a "war on terrorism" is that terrorism is not a nationality or an ideology... it is a method. You can't go to war on a method.

Exactly,velocipedio. And at what point will we announce that we have "won" this war? After we have knocked on every door of every country and said "Hi, we're here to collect your terrorists." ?

I apologize if I'm cutting in the middle of this discussion. I haven't had time to read this thread yet (I'm at work). But I do have some pictures that I personally took on 9/11/01. I was about 15 - 20 feet away from the doors of the WTC when the first plane hit!!!! I managed to get a hold of a disposable camera and here are the pics.

I'll tell you guys about my story if anyone's interested (and read this whole thread).

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/gia977

I agree with most of what Velocipedio said in his first post. I like him, am Canadian and the emotional impact is less so that if I lived in the United States. I am also significantly younger than he (I'm 22). From my standpoint, the world seems much more unfriendly now than it did a couple of years ago. Currently, and for the last 8 months, I feel as if there is this cloud of doom lingering over the entire planet. An actual war could outbreak at any time. I find that the war on terrorism is a falacy for the reasons that have already been mentioned -- it is not clearly defined and there is no way of determining when it is over. That being said, I believe that the American President has started to use the events -- as tragic as they are -- as a Carte Blanche to do whatever he wants in the name of the war against terrorism. The only problem is that he and his country are not the only people on this planet. Nuclear fallout does not stay within US Air Space. He had a token meeting with Jean Chretien (our Prime minister) yesterday (I say token because it was probably shorter than your average commerical break) to see if there is Canadian military support against Iraq. There isn't. The net result is that whatever the United States does, the rest of the world is intriniscally affected. But it appears to me as if that doesn't really matter in his eyes.
I guess what my question is now is did the US always want to attack Iraq again and has been waiting for the right political moment to do so? Why is this Iraq being held under the 9/11 umbrella?

I would appreciate comments and keep in mind that there are just my personal uninhibited view on the current world situation, there are not intended to offend anybody!

The war on terrorism can better be described as a way of life. There probably will never be an end to this war,struggle,whatever you want to call it. We don't want to attack Iraq as you say. Someone in this world HAS to prevent this madman from aquiring and using WMD. He has done so in the past and will do so again.
For some reason only Tony Blair and GWB are the only world leaders who recognize the danger. The apathy of you Canadians on this issue disturbs me.

The war on terrorism is to make up for the intelligence failure that brought this disaster to the US. These guys were literally right under their noses for years but the intelligence failed. Apparently, two of the guys who planned the attack (not hijackers) were living in California, listed in the phone book and using their own names and credit cards! Basically, this made the US look weak and it's not enough to say OOOPS! We goofed! Now they have to make up for that by mowing everyone down and deeming them "EVIL". No doubt Bin Laden is a creep, and so is Hussein and so are lots of guys in power. But I agree that the war on terrorism is a war on method, ideology- and we all know how successful that type of war usually is.

Do you think a response is not justified? Should we just say oh no,our bad,maybe we'll catch those bad guys next time!

Duffy...

I don't think anyone here expectd the United States not to respond to the September 11 attacks last year, and I think the US certainly had a good case to track down Osama bin Laden. the problem, as I see it, is that the US did not stop there. The "war on terrorism," as Spire noted, seems to have become the "war on people we don't like." The tragedy of September 11 is being used by President Bush to justify all kinds of things, including the invasion of Afghanistan, the overthrow of its legitimate government and the installation of a puppet government in Kabul.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think the Taliban were or are great guys, and they certainly weren't the kind of government I would like to have. But they were the government of Afghanistan. The "war on terrorism" was simply used as a pretext to remove them. Taliban soldiers, who were captured defending their country from a foreign invader, are being held without the full rights and recognition of prisoners of war at Guantanamo Bay. The whole thing stinks of a dishonest manipulation of events by the White House.

Now, there's talk of invading Iraq and overthrowing that country's government as a continuation of the "war on terrorism." Ad this is despite the fact that Iraq had nothing to do with the September 11 attack. It really does look like President Bush is simply using your country's grief and anger to support his own aims. I think it's revealing that you ask "Do you think a response is not justified?" If you're asking that about Iraq, I'd have to ask "a response to what?" Iraq has done nothing to the US. Consequently a response is not justified.

As for the argument that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, I should point out two things:

1. This has not actually been proved. It is mre accurate to say that Iraq is believed to have the capacity to manufacture weapons of mass destruction. That was, after all, the essence of the UN inspectors' reports, and the assessment of neutral observers on the ground. Yes, Iraq has manufactured poison gas in the past, but there is no evidence of stockpiles or continued production. It's a little like saying "I needed to hit Duffy pre-emptively, because he could have gone into his garage to get a baseball bat and hit me in the head."

2. A whole lot of countries have weapons of mass destruction -- including Britain, Israel, South Africa, India and Pakistan. In fact, India and Pakistan have demonstrated a frightening willingness to use them, even though they've never quite gotten that far. Do you believe the US would be justified in invading India? I find it telling that, even when it was being attacked by every country in the world, including erstwhile allies, even when its military situation was despreate beyond words during the Gulf War, Iraq didn't even use its suspected weapons of mass destruction against Israel or to defend itself. In fact, it's worth remembering that the country that has killed the most people with weapons of mass destruction is the United States.

This is why many of us in countries outside of the US are leery of the "war on terrorism." It seems like a dishonest cover for American empire building. It seems like an excuse for George Bush to install puppet governments wherever he wishes... and it makes us more than a little nervous.

That's why, as Spire observed, the world since September 11, 2001 seems to be "much more unfriendly now than it did a couple of years ago."

It seems tacky to say so on the eve of the 1 year anniversary, but...

Terrorism is the form of warfare employed when the combatant doesn't have a prayer in a face-to-face (so to speak) engagement with the enemy. It analogous to sneaking up on your enemy and stabbing him in the back. The defense in such a war is to grow eyes in the back of your head... most of us in the USA now experience it as a war on privacy. It's evident in any trip through the airport or any large event or gathering. We've lost some freedom.

Personally, it's my opinion that the powers that be may have many motives in threatening Iraq. The "war on terrorism," or more correctly "the war on those that might support and harbor terrorists", may have some validity but it's also possible that "the war" is being exploited to further a political and/or economic agenda.

Maybe the terrorists did win. They inflicted huge casualties, and significantly damaged American quality of life. Up until the last year, I started my day by catching up on the news by listening to Morning Edition (http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/index.html) on NPR. I find that I can't anymore. It's too depressing. :(

September 11. 11 days after a complete stranger knocked my off my bike onto my face. My new helmet is dated: Sept. 2001.

I have an extreme emotional connection to Sept. 11. I also have an emotional connection to every child that dies of hunger or war.

I am inescapably connected to my fellow man.

(The African American policewoman who filed my report on the scene of my "accident" cried when I told her, as I stood dazed and bleeding, that "I would have forgiven him if he'd just have come back"...those were my words.)

Velo,Where was UBL and his gang hiding out? Who harbored these people and allowed them to move about freely and plan thier dastardly deed? The Taliban,that's who. That makes them and their supporters,soldiers and sympathizers fair game as far as I'm concerned. Afghanistan was hijacked by these thugs and we are attempting to give it back to people who will actually try and run it as a democracy. What about that can you not understand? The people at GITMO are the worst of the worst and are being treated exactly the way they deserve. If you are so concerned why doesn't Canada volunteer to take custody of them and ensure that they will behave themselves? I am really losing patience with all you leftist dogooders that think the U.S is some evil monster out to run the world. We have GIVEN more money to the rest of the world to help with flood,famine,reconstruction,disease,etc than the rest of the world combined! What thanks do we get. None,but we continue to give because that is the nature of Americans.

As far as Iraq is concerned, there are links to Al Queda. There are plenty of that crowd in Iraq today and I promise you they have not discontinued their activities. Do you remember the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq used chemical weapons on numerous occasions against Iran. Being an historian I'm sure you remember that. Also, what about the times he used them on the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Defectors from Iraq have talked about his weapons program and his thirst for nuclear weapons. Are you willing to take the chance that he will not use them? Probably so. Most Canadians don't care because you are not a target for Sadaams' weapons. That is a very selfish attitude. Should we appease this man? How well has that worked in the past? There is evidence of his evil ways but one has to open their eyes to see it.

I beg to disagree about India and Pakistan. At no time during their dust ups have either one talked about using nukes. The media has suggested it but in reality it never was close.

As far as us nuking Japan,thank God we did. It saved hunderds of thousands of people from dying. No apologies here!

We are not empire buliding,we are ridding the world of a menace. After we are through the world will be a safer place and no thanks are necessary.

Roadbuzz,

Stop listening to NPR. That would depress the hell out of me too. Try Fox and Friends and actually have fun while you get ready for work.

Firefighter:
http://www.larry-virgilio-fund.org/

Photos (click "next" or "begin:")
http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/wtc/
http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/shattered/
http://www.time.com/time/yip2001/sep1.html
http://www.georgegoodwin.com/wtc/wtc1.html

Eyewitnesses:
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_witness.htm
http://www.nycstories.com/places/911/10/12.html
http://www.dhj5.homestead.com/Issue5pg17.html

Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/news/packages...f_rubble+.shtml

Rides to honor victims:
http://www.philafound.org/Bowser%20Fund.html
http://www.bikeleague.org/mediacent...ews11-13-01.htm

Views:
http://www.bootsnall.com/cgi-bin/gt...enn/sep18.shtml
http://india.indymedia.org/front.ph...7&group=webcast

MS Ride:
http://www.msnyc.org/btour/bikeindex.html

Re Afghanistan, columnist Christopher Hitchens, no friend of Dubya or most US foreign policy ideas, lionized our military action in a piece last year calling it something like "The first time a country has been bombed back out of the Stone Age."

The African American policewoman who filed my report on the scene of my "accident" cried when I told her, as I stood dazed and bleeding, that "I would have forgiven him if he'd just have come back"...those were my words.

that is just ... amazing. Pete, that's possibly the purest example of forgiveness I've ever heard. I'm not sure I know how else to put it. you're a bigger man than I am. I couldn't do it.

I don't know the circumstances of your incident, but from what I can tell there's no doubt in my mind that if it was me, and if I could have laid hold of the smallest finger of that man's hand, then he would've been admitted to the ER before I was.

I tell you this because after thinking about my reaction to your story, I think I just illustrated one reason why we as a species will always have war.

Originally posted by Spire
I agree with most of what Velocipedio said in his first post. I like him, am Canadian and the emotional impact is less so that if I lived in the United States.[/I]

Guys! Bin Laden has repeatedly pledged that he and his al Qa'eda organization will kill Americans and Israelis anywhere in the world where ever they may be. So if that means setting off a remote controlled bomb to kill a few Americans in Canada while killing a handful of Canadian bystanders in the name of completing their mission then oh well. That is while this is not America against Osama, but the civilized world against terrorism.

Remember none, if any, of the 9/11 victims had anything to do with foreign policy making. These were innocent civilians! Let us not forget! (http://home.attbi.com/~sept11/)

Originally posted by Bobsled


Guys! Bin Laden has repeatedly pledged that he and his al Qa'eda organization will kill Americans and Israelis anywhere in the world where ever they may be. So if that means setting off a remote controlled bomb to kill a few Americans in Canada while killing a handful of Canadian bystanders in the name of completing their mission then oh well. That is while this is not America against Osama, but the civilized world against terrorism.

Remember none, if any, of the 9/11 victims had anything to do with foreign policy making. These were innocent civilians! Let us not forget! (http://home.attbi.com/~sept11/)

Duffy... Bobsled...

I don't want to get into a debate here. That's not what Oceanrider intended with this thread.

I respect your anger and grief; please respect my sense of disgust and fear over how the response to September 11 has changed the world.

In the name of humanity, please... respect for the dead, the suffering and those who must go on. It is our lot to remember the events, the people, the pain of this tragedy still fresh and raw with respect. Let us not further offend. Please, I beg.