Road Bike Racing - Acqua & Sapone

Thank god that Acqua & Sapone are in the Vuelta. I think that Mario Cipollini is one of the most entertaining riders out ther.... Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Hop4k
Thank god that Acqua & Sapone are in the Vuelta. I think that Mario Cipollini is one of the most entertaining riders out ther.... Any thoughts?

No question - and unlike Le Tour, we'll get to see Super Mario shoot it out in the spints with Zabel. Cipollini will be entertaining both on and off the bike.

Hey, wait a sceond, I thought he just retired??? ;)

NO, but he is planning to bail out of the Vuelta before it ends. He wants to get ready for the worlds. That will take one challenge away from Zabel, but there are a few other hot sprinters like Ivan Quaranta, Oscar Freire and ALessandro Petacchi. I thought Massimo Strazzer would do the vuelta, but he didn't- he's had a good season!

For a team the pundits didn't think was strong enough to "service" Cipollini, they have RULED most of the sprint stages in the Giro and stages 3 and 4 so far in the Vuelta. Watching them form up and take control has been breath-taking. Rainbabe makes fun of me because I'm sittin' up in bed my feet practically spinning 120-130+ right along with them that last 3 km. That zebra train is a thing of beauty and precision. As it gets down to Scirea and then Lombardi I am practically jumping up and down.

I really like Erich Zabel, and I love to see him win. I really hoped he would take the TDF green jersey. But when it's a contest between he and Cipollini and A&S form up for the run in I can't help it. I HAVE to pull for Mario. The team does such a good job I have to pull for him to win it for them.

Yeah, I know. I'm a big geek.

Ivan Quaranta's already bailed, which I figured he would.

I'd like to see Zabel win a stage, and even beat Cipo! Zabel did really well in the Vuelta last year, and he also won the sprinter's jersey in the tour of Switzerland, so the tour is the only one he didn't get. Since Cipo plans to bail out, it looks like Zabel will probably get the sprinter's jersey and can win stages, but he probably wants to beat Cipo in a sprint!

Don't get me wrong. I love Zabel. He is a class act, and I love to see him win. But unless he can get his Telekom boys to give him the support Cipo gets from his posse it will be tough. I guess that is what endears the A&S guys. They DO it! Like clock work, they form up and get the job done. I've only been watching this stuff the last couple of years, but I have yet to see anyone get the kind of absolute devotion and perfect leadouts Super Mario elicits from his teammates. At Saeco before and A&S now, those guys fry themselves to set up the train and pull him through. Occasionally a fly gets in the ointment - another rider manages to disrupt the train or one of the A&S has a bobble at a bad time, and someone else sneaks by. But when it works, as it usually does, I haven't seen anyone get by him yet.

Like what Rainman said, Cipollini and his team looked amazing in the stage 3 and 4 sprints. How often do whole teams support their sprinter at the end sprint of a stage like that? Is it a rare thing or does this happen often? I haven't seen it before.

It made me actually find good interest in the flat stages of the tour. Before these few stages I watched in this Vuelta, I was never interested in watching sprint finishes. Now I have a better understanding of them, how they work, and the "beauty" ( :D ) of them.

:beer:

Some teams have both a strong sprinter and a GC contender. In such cases the team is often built to support the GC man with the sprinter a lower priority. Cf last year's TDF where Ullrich and Zabel were both in the race. The team priority was to support Ullrich. Zabel didn't even have his favorite leadout man. Compare that to USPS where Lance is job one. Hincapie, though a very capable sprinter is never allowed to contest a sprint. Now look at the teams, like A&S, who have no GC threat but may have a sprinter or a climber who can get some points and publicity by winning a stage. The team is built to support the specialist to hopefully get a couple of stage wins. That is what A&S is: a team designed for no other purpose than getting Cipo some stage wins. It's also nice when Lombardi gets a chance to win.

Thanks Rainman.

Stage 7 - Cipollini is 3 for 3 now. At first (about 4km left or so) it seemed like Telekom was actually going to have the sprint set up perfect for Zabel... but after a km, A&S took over and drove Cipollini to another win. Again, they rode beautifully.

I'm guessing he is looking for a win on stage 9? There is a Cat 2 climb shortly before the finish, I'm guessing they feel it won't make much of a difference?

Am I the only one who thinks it's weak that Cipo always bails after the flat stages? Good work if you can get it, I suppose. ;)

It's true, he almost never finishes the grand tours- never finished the TDF. But that's the way it is with sprinters. However, Cipo did make it all the way through the Giro this year because he wanted to match Binda's record. SO he made it through the Dolomites. A lot of sprinters aren't big on the mountains. Kirsipuu's bailed out a few times; Ivan Quaranta has already left the Vuelta. Zabel is pretty good in the mountains. If you really want that sprinter's jersey, you drag yourself through the alps!

I mean, he doesn't even have to work until the very end of the stage (ignoring training, of course)! I guess I'm just jealous.

Originally posted by roadbuzz
Am I the only one who thinks it's weak that Cipo always bails after the flat stages? Good work if you can get it, I suppose. ;)

He is a character, and a truly awesome sprinter - which makes up for his non-finishes for me. However, dropping out of grand tours is one thing, but the bullsh*t excuses are what bother me somewhat.

One year he didn't complete one of the grand tours (I forget which) becasue he wanted to be a judge in the Miss Italy contest. Well .... okay, I understand that one. :D

am i the only one that thinks cippolini and the rest of his team are a bunch of idiots?

i see it this way:

they have no reason to be in the vuelta. his team is there to get him stage wins. that's great and all, no problem with that. but he's leaving the race tomorrow. why even bother starting if you aren't gonna take it to the end? to get a couple more stage wins for your record? yeah, whatever. ride it out till the end.

zabel races all season long, cippolini is the type of guy that'll only race when he thinks his team can take him to the front. that leaves me with a bad impression about his character.


and aside from all that, his face reminds me of a horse.

'Lion King' is a more apt name for Cipo than he's probably willing to acknowledge: He hangs back and drafts along the flats, getting pulled along, while the pride does all the real work. Every once in a while, he'll surge to the front and grab some glory and visibility, but without the pride, he's nothing. Further, just like a male lion, if the prey is too tough (i.e., the climb is too hard), he slinks off and goes home, looking for easier pickings.

Yet his self-love knows no bounds. He may be an outstanding sprinter, but IMO, he's an embarassment to the real stage cyclists in any tour.

Originally posted by fore
but he's leaving the race tomorrow.

Actually, in typical Cippo fashion, he ended up abandoning a day early - Saturday.

There must be a beauty pagent that needs a judge somewhere on Sunday! :D

Originally posted by bac
Actually, in typical Cippo fashion, he ended up abandoning a day early - Saturday.


did he? i didnt wake up early enough to catch the live coverage.

i'm glad though... i cant stand to look at him anymore.

Originally posted by fore
[Cipo's] team is there to get him stage wins.
I was thinking about this... it seems like they also have to be good enough to remain in division I or II, to even qualify for the grand tours. But once "the lion" is no longer chasing the zebras, you don't hear any more about them. So will they be there next year?

He does what he's paid to do. These guys race for money. By winning stages he brings big attention to his sponsors. Remember when he rode a Cannondale? Do you think they cared if he finished the entire tour? All he had to do is win a few sprints and tell us "Cannondale makes the best bike." Right now Specialized is just as happy.

As Rainman has pointed out the A&S leadout is beautiful. I guess for some fans watching the hard work on the climbs is the main attraction of the sport. For others it's the mass sprint at the end of a flat race. In that area Cipo is the best in recent history.

In fairness Cipo has a decent record in the Classics, particularly this year and he has a good shot at a World Championship.



:beer:

Ok for all of you Cipo supporters you probably can ignore this cause it'll probably make sense to you, but for all of those who don't maybe you would like to think about this....Seems some people think that cipo and his team are just people taking up space in the peleton and only contesting things when they feel it's right to do so..I got to thinking about this and found some comparisions to Lance's team also that I think we can make...Lance as we all know targets one race per year as "the main race" he basis his whole season around that, and like cipo who we can all count on to be there when it's really flat and he can get his train rolling, we can also count on Lance to be there screaming up the mountains when the road turns upward...So what I'm saying here, is both of them have been gifted with different abilities and they use those abilities to achieve the best result for each of them...I think it's unfair to criticize cipo for what he dosen't do, cause I could say the same thing about lance, well he dosen't contest the flat races or the sprints in the tour, cipo dosen't contest the mountians or the hills stage races, because they have 2 different skills and abilities because of the way their bodies are put together(fast twich vs slow twitch muscles)..Finally let's all remember that they like us have been gifted with the ability to ride a bike, weather it be competitivly or just for fun, I have friends who tell me and I now see that we shouldn't take for granted that we can ride however far or however fast we go on our bikes, remember there are people out there who can't even imagine riding a bike b/c of medical reasons...And I think that befor we go and criticize these PRO's we should remember that, and realize what a gift from god they and us have recieved..

Benjamin
in michigan

Seems some people think that cipo and his team are just people taking up space in the peleton and only contesting things when they feel it's right to do so..I got to thinking about this and found some comparisions to Lance's team also that I think we can make

Interesting, but not an entirely valid comparison. For Lance, the goal is still to FINISH the main race he enters. Cipo and A&S are just there to grab TV time while they can still keep up, with never a pretense finish the race. If Cipo had true self respect (instead of his arrogant narcissicism), he and A&S would only enter (and probably win quite a few of) the one day events, classics type races, and leave one more spot open in the tours for a legitamate team. By legitamate I don't necessarily mean contender for first place, but at least one with a credible goal of having its lead rider FINISH the race (e.g., Zabel and crew).

Originally posted by caadman
Seems some people think that cipo and his team are just people taking up space in the peleton and only contesting things when they feel it's right to do so

That comparison only works while Super Mario is still in the race. Once he abandons, the team doesn't have to worry about contesting for anything. :D

Originally posted by OldDog


Interesting, but not an entirely valid comparison. For Lance, the goal is still to FINISH the main race he enters.


I guess the contrast between individual stages and the overall race comes into play. For Cipo, the 'races' are the flat sprint stages. Each stage is a race in itself. So he enters for those races... and when they are over, his race is over. Remember Lance in last year's SF grand prix? I'm sure he wasn't on the pretense that he would finish.

The Vuelta wasn't the main race for Cipo this season (and it never will be). His goals were the Giro (where he won six stages, including the last one) and the World Championships. Using one race to prepare for another is nothing new (Ullrich used the first half of the Vuelta in '00 to prepare for the Olympics), and I am sure that Armstrong wouldn't hesitate to go home from a race prior to the TdF if he thought that would be better for his TdF performance.

And about the "his team is there to get him stage wins"-thing... I kind of thought that was the purpose of bike racing, or is it better if every team is like Index Alexia? :)

When I began watching cycling for the first time (Giro '98) it was primarily for the mountain stages. Those are still the most fascinating part of the big tours for me, but guys like Cipo makes the flat stages less boring.

/Csson

Brent brings up a good point, what we're talking about is stage wins versus overall win let's keep that in mind also....And csson, you're right last time I checked pro teams were formed because cycling is a team sport with indivudal players, that a good point also..

Benjamin

Cipo does what he is paid to do - win sprint stages. He and his sponsors are well aware that he never has been, nor will he ever be, a GC contender in a grand tour. The sponsors of his team acknowledge this and have allowed the ds and team managers to build a team whose sole purpose is to lead him to wins in sprint stages. ALL team leaders sit in until it is time for them to do what what they do, whether they are sprinters, climbers, time trialists, etc. Do you ever see Lance in the wind? Do you ever see him in the Giro or the Vuelta? No, because his job is to win the TDF. His sponsors and managers have built a team designed to make the most of his strengths. No different from Cipollini, just different priorities. Besides, Cipo's departure always means that Lombardi will have some shots. People do not realize that both Lombardi and Scirea are themselves among the strongest sprinters in the peloton. Don't be surprised to see Lombardi right up front in some of the later sprint stages.

Granted, Cipollini is no hard man like Zabel who races all season and does 6-days on the track during off season and for whom I have utmost respect. But don't knock Cipollini for having different priorities.

I guess the contrast between individual stages and the overall race comes into play. For Cipo, the 'races' are the flat sprint stages. Each stage is a race in itself.


Using one race to prepare for another is nothing new (Ullrich used the first half of the Vuelta in '00 to prepare for the Olympics), and I am sure that Armstrong wouldn't hesitate to go home from a race prior to the TdF if he thought that would be better for his TdF performance.


Cipo does what he is paid to do - win sprint stages. He and his sponsors are well aware that he never has been, nor will he ever be, a GC contender in a grand tour. The sponsors of his team acknowledge this and have allowed the ds and team managers to build a team whose sole purpose is to lead him to wins in sprint stages. ALL team leaders sit in until it is time for them to do what what they do, whether they are sprinters, climbers, time trialists, etc. Do you ever see Lance in the wind? Do you ever see him in the Giro or the Vuelta? No, because his job is to win the TDF.

All of these are excellent points, and maybe I should be a little more forgiving (like Cipo would ever give a d*mn about my opinion, even if he were aware of it :rolleyes: ). I guess my biggest problem with Cipo, when compared to the likes of Zabel or Armstrong, or even moreso, somebody like Heras, is that he is such an insufferable, self-aggrandizing a$$. He's like Shannon Sharpe on a bicycle - sure, he's good at what he does, but there are those that are nearly or just as good, but without the posturing and verbal diarrhea that Cipo seems to feel has to accompany his performances.

What is this? Cipo is like any team leader he is PAID TO WIN RACES. Cipo is like any other superstar, he gets PAID TO ATTRACT ATTENTION.

Cipo runs his business with alot of class and respect from the peloton and endearment of the press.
When a racer enters a grand tour, a stage win can be the highlight of a career. They don't keep record of everyone that finishes, history records the WINNERS. Stage winners, GC winners, jersey winners. EVERYONE, from the fans to race organizers don't expect every team or leader to finish.

Just the fact you are talking about Cipo here is a testament to his great power as a superstar. Sponsors want to be involved with him and for good reason. He is also an aging athlete that defies the odds by winning and surprising everyone. Whats not to like about that?

Cipo was one of the very, very few to speak about all the drug scandals in Italian cycling earlier this year. He did it with alot of class.
I don't see him as anything but a great cyclist and one of the greatest sprinters of all time that was blessed with many gifts including showmanship, model-good looks, intelligence on and off the bike and an ambassador of the sport.

Cipo isn't just a pretty face, that's for sure- let's see the average male model accelerate the way he does! Cipo, like other big stars, does a lot for the sport- he gets attention and he gets the fans out there. Like Armstrong in the Tour- fans turn out in huge numbers to see their big favorites, like Cipo, or Pantani (who still has huge amounts of loyal fans)- and he gives them what they want! Euro cycling fans are hugely devoted and seem to have almost personal relationships with their heroes like Cipo and that's why races draw bigger and bigger crowds every year- they get there hours in advance just to paint their heroes names on the pavement!

Nobody said Cipo didn't deliver. Sponsors, fans, team-mates, and Cipo are all getting their nickels worth, but it begs the question...

Walter Godefroot: "Erik, you are vasting your talents climbing zee mountains und timing zee trials. Vee are always zee bridesmaid und never zee bride. Now, vee vill pick zee cherries und you vill ride only zee flat stages, und vee vill chase zee zebras back to zee Sarengeti."
;)

Nice to hear that there are people out here that understand this and bring forth the truth, like rainman and racerX, I can't agree more with both of them, keep it up guys...

Benjamin
in michigan

LOL.... anyways tomorrow is a flat stage, hopefully Zabel will win that one.

Well to all those who think that Aqua's only purpose is to shine for Super Mario can take a good look at today's stage. Lombardi is a great sprinter in his own right, who can also ride pretty well in the hills. I guess a team does pretty well to take 4 out of the first 14 stages right?

Originally posted by LngDistance
I guess a team does pretty well to take 4 out of the first 14 stages right?

It's all because of the uniforms.

:D

Goodie, I can't wait to see it tonight. I know he was disappointed to be edged out yesterday. I didn't realize that Scirea had retired from the race. A&S tried, but just didn't quite have the firepower left. Lombardi basically had to start his sprint from almost 800 meters. That just ain't gonna happen. Nobody's that strong. He is a strong rider. If I remember correctly the stage he won in the Giro was a hilly one, too. He is a good hard loyal worker who deserves to win one from time to time.

WG to team: Zee lion king eez gone und steel zee zebras place well und ve haf not eefun a rider in zee breakaway!!! You are all LAZY UND VEAK. You are as bad as that Ullrich fellow und your discos und your veak knees. It is zees pink jerseys...

Telekom's best placed finisher: EZ, 36th, 8.5 minutes down. How the mighty have fallen. But then USPS's best finisher, Heras, was 75th. I guess nobody in the breakaway posed a threat to the GC.

Looking forward to Sunday... we'll see what Heras can do, but my money is on Kelme. As recently as two years ago that suggestion would have been laughable.

Oh, yeah, baby! Angliru! I have already informed Rainbabe exactly where I will be Sunday morning from 8:30-10:30 our time. I don't watch football, basketball or baseball so she is pretty understanding when I plant myself to watch the Giro, TDF and Vuelta.

Of course the gorgeous emerald and diamond ring I surprised her with yesterday evening has scored me MANY brownie points. Just let her say something when I start looking for a new bike! Except that after THAT little purchase, the brownie points will probably have expired by the time I can AFFORD a new bike. Damn, there's always a Catch 22.

The rest of the race seems pretty mountainous... but not like I expected. Just one tough mountain stage after Angliru. I'm just expecting that, stage 18, and stage 21 to do any shakeup to the overall standings. Or should I expect more?

Anyways, I'm very interested in tomorrow! A cat 1 climb right before the final... and the final 7km's look REALLY tough!

Originally posted by RainmanP
Of course the gorgeous emerald and diamond ring I surprised her with yesterday evening has scored me MANY brownie points. Just let her say ...

Wishful thinking, Rainman... You know it doesn't work both ways. ;)

Alas, I am without television coverage :cry: and will be riding a century anyway. You can bet I'll be checking cyclingnews when I get home. Hope it's a nailbiter.